How the hell is it a dictatorship state? How? By providing our children with a free and good quality education and ensuring they are able to move into higher education and / or employment? What nonsense.
The main problem is that schools are audited re their attendance and any long term absences are scrutinised. You are asked what you have done in terms of challenging the parent/s of pupils taken out of school. The notion of schools being able to use their discretion in such situations is simply not true despite what any legislation or guidelines say.
Unfortunately using discretion creates inconsistency. If one family is allowed time off for a holiday then it would snowball and the school would see other families following which would affect attendane figures and could lead to the school being challenged re their attendance policy and absence rates. Therefore schools tend to take a fairly strict approach to cover themselves. Often done with a heavy heart.
Schools have 12 weeks holiday a year. Surely you can fit proper family time in that even if you are on 20 days a year. The financial argument is a stronger argument.
As a matter of interest a fee schools less strict on time off.
How the hell is it a dictatorship state? How? By providing our children with a free and good quality education and ensuring they are able to move into higher education and / or employment? What nonsense.
free ? .. you mean paid for by taxation and government borrowing or should it be over-borrowing which is why the 'freeze' is on for salaries and incomes .. State Education like the 'free' NHS .. you, me, he and she are paying for it, other than University education of course where the student pays through the nose to help the government keep the unemployment figures down for a while .. BUT .. I digress
How the hell is it a dictatorship state? How? By providing our children with a free and good quality education and ensuring they are able to move into higher education and / or employment? What nonsense.
free ? .. you mean paid for by taxation and government borrowing or should it be over-borrowing which is why the 'freeze' is on for salaries and incomes .. State Education like the 'free' NHS .. you, me, he and she are paying for it, other than University education of course where the student pays through the nose to help the government keep the unemployment figures down for a while .. BUT .. I digress
Took my daughter out of school for two weeks just before Xmas to go to Florida. The school approved it, simply told them it was the only time I could get off work and was working all over Xmas (all bull). If they had refused it I would have taken her out regardless. If they'd fined me I would have told them to stick it up their arse and flatly refused to pay it. I know of two couples who have been fined sent the letter back advising that they were refusing to pay and no further action was taken.
How the hell is it a dictatorship state? How? By providing our children with a free and good quality education and ensuring they are able to move into higher education and / or employment? What nonsense.
free ? .. you mean paid for by taxation and government borrowing or should it be over-borrowing which is why the 'freeze' is on for salaries and incomes .. State Education like the 'free' NHS .. you, me, he and she are paying for it, other than University education of course where the student pays through the nose to help the government keep the unemployment figures down for a while .. BUT .. I digress
Would you rather pay for it?
I think you have misread my previous post I AM paying for 'it' .. and when my boys were at a private school for a while, I was paying for other children's education as well as for my own children through taxation .. I don't mind, that is what living in a social democracy is all about ... what I disagree with is having a civil servant dictate to me how I choose to bring up my children within certain limits .. but that is the price one pays for NOT paying for or not being able to afford private education .. there is NO tax relief on payment of school fees .. but of course Eton and many other public schools are registered charities .. the availability of MONEY dictates educational policies as it dictates most facets of life
How the hell is it a dictatorship state? How? By providing our children with a free and good quality education and ensuring they are able to move into higher education and / or employment? What nonsense.
free ? .. you mean paid for by taxation and government borrowing or should it be over-borrowing which is why the 'freeze' is on for salaries and incomes .. State Education like the 'free' NHS .. you, me, he and she are paying for it, other than University education of course where the student pays through the nose to help the government keep the unemployment figures down for a while .. BUT .. I digress
Would you rather pay for it?
I think you have misread my previous post I AM paying for 'it' .. and when my boys were at a private school for a while, I was paying for other children's education as well as for my own children through taxation .. I don't mind, that is what living in a social democracy is all about ... what I disagree with is having a civil servant dictate to me how I choose to bring up my children within certain limits .. but that is the price one pays for NOT paying for or not being able to afford private education .. there is NO tax relief on payment of school fees .. but of course Eton and many other public schools are registered charities .. the availability of MONEY dictates educational policies as it dictates most facets of life
My view is that there is no good reason to take children on holiday during term time. I have never done it and I never would. Each to their own, but I think that fines are to be expected. They are already less than the saving you make on the holiday.
A quick question though. How would those of you that feel inclined to take your holiday when it suits you feel if you received a letter on a Friday evening that said that you would have to make arrangements to look after your children for the next two weeks as their teacher was off to Florida as it's cheaper than going in any of the other 13 weeks holiday they get each year? And that you would be expected to put the hours in to ensure that they make up for any work they miss when the teacher comes back?
My view is that there is no good reason to take children on holiday during term time. I have never done it and I never would. Each to their own, but I think that fines are to be expected. They are already less than the saving you make on the holiday.
A quick question though. How would those of you that feel inclined to take your holiday when it suits you feel if you received a letter on a Friday evening that said that you would have to make arrangements to look after your children for the next two weeks as their teacher was off to Florida as it's cheaper than going in any of the other 13 weeks holiday they get each year? And that you would be expected to put the hours in to ensure that they make up for any work they miss when the teacher comes back?
So if you were employed by a company that rostered your holidays outside the school holiday you would simply not take your
You telling me teachers don't take any days off outside of school holidays?
Anyway, teaching is their career choice so they know when their main holidays can be taken.
Don't know how taking child out for one week can seriously affect their education. More likely to suffer by being born in June and being educated alongside someone nearly a year older.
any teacher that strikes should pay each parent £10 per child in their class that misses school that day, why don't you strike during the school holidays when your " Marking papers and planning classes"
how any teacher can moan that a child has missed a week or two school per year is nonsense
Teachers don't get paid for any days they go on strike.
Sorry but I don't understand when going on holiday became a right?
It's about as valid as the right of government to interfere in the educational and vacational decisions of its citizens.
Sorry but that's about the most absurd thing I have ever read on here (and that's saying something).
Governments are paid taxes to run state affairs. I vote on which party I think will use this money in the best way. My taxes contribute to education. Therefore it is entirely valid for the government to 'interfere' in education.
If you want education outside of government control there is a very simply way to get it - pay for it yourself and take all the holidays you want.
I think the government should focus on providing a world-class education system (something successive govts have failed to do) - if they achieved this then parents might think twice about their kids missing out on something useful.
But you are not gonna get a world class system if it is undermined by parents taking kids out of school to go on a jolly. Weddings, funerals and illness is legitimate, but 2 weeks in the sun just makes the rest of the kids think, "well this school lark can't be that important, coz Jack's just been allowed to piss off for 2 weeks in Majorca".
Btw, to any parents, you can get v cheap self catering accommodation in school hols at holidaylettings.co.uk or ownersdirect.com
Flights can be expensive, but you can still get deals at places like Expedia
We (family of 4) usually go to Zakynthos the May half term but having to give it a miss this year as simply cant afford it. First year my husband and I went abroard we did so as the cost of a decent caravan in the UK wasnt that much cheaper than jetting somewhere we were guaranteed sun and heat. Have taken kids out of junior school once or twice but only for a day, never for a whole week. If the ruling is threatened with a fine and you are aware of it when you make that decision then thats the choice you make. If you pay the fine up front its probably still cheaper than holidaying in school holiday period . But for me the issue is costs in holiday time - its not just kids and their families that are robbed but teachers, dinner ladies, premises managers etc
when the school stops adding an inset day (baker days for some of you) at the start of a new term, when the teachers have just had 6 weeks off then I wont take them away during school time.
you should listen to you lot - you wanted kids so deal with it ;-)
In all seriousness if you work for a small company or in a small department and most of your colleagues have kids it's impossible for you all to be off work at the same time, or during the summer weeks, so surely something has to give somewhere especially if you figure in all the partners involved and their work situation as well.
Schools should be flexible and take all circumstances into account when deciding. For example, we are going away with Golfie and our holiday starts five days before term ends meaning his kids (all under ten) will miss the last three days of the summer term. what harm will it do them missing the last three days of the school year? all we used to do then in my day was play board games etc. If the school says no then they will have to follow us down to Cornwall three days later.
Funny too that schools don't ask parents for permission when they slot in baker days, ok for kids to miss school then ain't it.
Inset days are used for training, planning the term with your assistant/ job sharing teacher and making sure everything in class is in place. Most teachers are still winding down the classroom when the holidays start and gearing up for the commencement of term about a week before.
It really doesn't matter what an inset day is for, I just can't see why the staff can't come in a day before term starts, esp the new school, year when they have just had 6 weeks off. My kids school's new School term this year start on wed 3rd sept. I bet your bottom dollar that they will make that an inset day & the term will really start on the thursday.......if they do (as they have done the previous 3 years) then we will have to organise child care on the wed, which is diabolical when they have just had 6 weeks off.
You telling me teachers don't take any days off outside of school holidays?
Anyway, teaching is their career choice so they know when their main holidays can be taken.
Don't know how taking child out for one week can seriously affect their education. More likely to suffer by being born in June and being educated alongside someone nearly a year older.
To be fair though, having children, kinda, a choice isn't it?
Sorry but I don't understand when going on holiday became a right?
It's about as valid as the right of government to interfere in the educational and vacational decisions of its citizens.
You are of course right, the government should have nothing to do with education.
No reason why it should (and increasingly it doesn't).
Uh? Can't really see the giants of free enterprise queuing up to educate working class kids in South London whose parents haven't got a pot to piss in but each to their own.
My view is that there is no good reason to take children on holiday during term time. I have never done it and I never would. Each to their own, but I think that fines are to be expected. They are already less than the saving you make on the holiday.
A quick question though. How would those of you that feel inclined to take your holiday when it suits you feel if you received a letter on a Friday evening that said that you would have to make arrangements to look after your children for the next two weeks as their teacher was off to Florida as it's cheaper than going in any of the other 13 weeks holiday they get each year? And that you would be expected to put the hours in to ensure that they make up for any work they miss when the teacher comes back?
KHA, the teachers are paid to attend. Parents are taxpayers and are thus paying for their kids to attend, indirectly at least.
As mentioned above, the govt/councils should focus on providing world class education, emphasise the importance thereof and let parents make their own minds up. I think the value of education is pretty well understood (let alone the free childcare aspect!)
My view is that there is no good reason to take children on holiday during term time. I have never done it and I never would. Each to their own, but I think that fines are to be expected. They are already less than the saving you make on the holiday.
A quick question though. How would those of you that feel inclined to take your holiday when it suits you feel if you received a letter on a Friday evening that said that you would have to make arrangements to look after your children for the next two weeks as their teacher was off to Florida as it's cheaper than going in any of the other 13 weeks holiday they get each year? And that you would be expected to put the hours in to ensure that they make up for any work they miss when the teacher comes back?
So if you were employed by a company that rostered your holidays outside the school holiday you would simply not take your
children on holiday that year ?
That is correct!
However, I would probably seek out a different employer.
It does beg the question if one is willing to stick two fingers up at the school and the other children and their parents why doesn't one just stick two fingers up at the employer and take the holiday out of term time and see what happens when they get back?
I don't believe in the slightest it has anything to do with the child missing out on their education. My sister in law got married in italy a few years ago and I submitted my form for my girls to have a week off, the response I got was the eldest (9) was authorised for all 5 days and the youngest (6) was only authorised for 4! This tells me that no one even looks at these authorisation forms and its all done on the numbers. Now my eldest is at secondary though, I wouldn't take her out of school if I really didn't have to. As for the pricing of holidays, can you really blame them?
Sorry but I don't understand when going on holiday became a right?
It's about as valid as the right of government to interfere in the educational and vacational decisions of its citizens.
You are of course right, the government should have nothing to do with education.
No reason why it should (and increasingly it doesn't).
Uh? Can't really see the giants of free enterprise queuing up to educate working class kids in South London whose parents haven't got a pot to piss in but each to their own.
Sorry didn't mean the govt (or more accurately the taxpayer) shouldn't fund it obviously, but just that there's no reason for them to run it. The Academies have done ok haven't they?
any teacher that strikes should pay each parent £10 per child in their class that misses school that day, why don't you strike during the school holidays when your " Marking papers and planning classes"
how any teacher can moan that a child has missed a week or two school per year is nonsense
Teachers don't get paid for any days they go on strike.
so nor do the poor parents who have to take time off if they don't want to use up annual leave to cover it, schools cant have it both ways, moan threaten to fine for a few days off outside term time, yet strike during school time and the inset days , do the training in the school holidays
My view is that there is no good reason to take children on holiday during term time. I have never done it and I never would. Each to their own, but I think that fines are to be expected. They are already less than the saving you make on the holiday.
A quick question though. How would those of you that feel inclined to take your holiday when it suits you feel if you received a letter on a Friday evening that said that you would have to make arrangements to look after your children for the next two weeks as their teacher was off to Florida as it's cheaper than going in any of the other 13 weeks holiday they get each year? And that you would be expected to put the hours in to ensure that they make up for any work they miss when the teacher comes back?
KHA, the teachers are paid to attend. Parents are taxpayers and are thus paying for their kids to attend, indirectly at least.
As mentioned above, the govt/councils should focus on providing world class education, emphasise the importance thereof and let parents make their own minds up. I think the value of education is pretty well understood (let alone the free childcare aspect!)
What would happen if all parents decided to remove their kids from school for the last two weeks of term? Individual decision making only works if it leads to good overall outcomes. When if doesn't (or might not) you need rules.
I don't know whether we've reached that stage as far as this issue is concerned (and we may not have), but the point is that you can't necessarily let parents make their own minds up. It depends - in this case on how many parents are trying to "beat the system".
(In the limit, the process of selfish, individual decision making can be completely self defeating, sometimes making everybody worse off. In this case, if everybody quits school early, holiday prices are no cheaper despite the disruption to schooling. It's a kind of arms race in which everybody loses. Sometimes you need rules to prevent self destruction.)
Again guys, it was not teachers who made the five days of inset a year rule. Believe me we do work on these days.
I don't like it when sensible discussions descend into further digs at teachers for their holidays etc. It is a perk of the job, yes. And we are fortunate, yes. But please don't think that teachers only work for the hours that schools are open to pupils. It's a little like saying a chef only works when their restaurant is open to customers.
I would happily break down my weekly hours for you but you wouldn't be interesting and neither is it easy to explain exactly what the job entails that people don't see or recognise.
It's a great job and I wouldn't do any other. But there is much more to it than occasionally standing in front of a group of children, arguing over coffee cups and sewing elbow patches in to our blazers.
My view is that there is no good reason to take children on holiday during term time. I have never done it and I never would. Each to their own, but I think that fines are to be expected. They are already less than the saving you make on the holiday.
A quick question though. How would those of you that feel inclined to take your holiday when it suits you feel if you received a letter on a Friday evening that said that you would have to make arrangements to look after your children for the next two weeks as their teacher was off to Florida as it's cheaper than going in any of the other 13 weeks holiday they get each year? And that you would be expected to put the hours in to ensure that they make up for any work they miss when the teacher comes back?
KHA, the teachers are paid to attend. Parents are taxpayers and are thus paying for their kids to attend, indirectly at least.
As mentioned above, the govt/councils should focus on providing world class education, emphasise the importance thereof and let parents make their own minds up. I think the value of education is pretty well understood (let alone the free childcare aspect!)
What would happen if all parents decided to remove their kids from school for the last two weeks of term? Individual decision making only works if it leads to good overall outcomes. When if doesn't (or might not) you need rules.
I don't know whether we've reached that stage as far as this issue is concerned (and we may not have), but the point is that you can't necessarily let parents make their own minds up. It depends - in this case on how many parents are trying to "beat the system".
(In the limit, the process of selfish, individual decision making can be completely self defeating, sometimes making everybody worse off. In this case, if everybody quits school early, holiday prices are no cheaper despite the disruption to schooling. It's a kind of arms race in which everybody loses. Sometimes you need rules to prevent self destruction.)
I don't think we are remotely close to that point, precisely because of individual decision-making ie. most parents wouldn't consider it for various reasons. Let's say conservatively that 25% of parents would consider doing it once per year, and there are three school terms so just over 8% of kids will be missing for some small part of that term's education.
I suspect this is roughly equivalent to the proportion of kids off sick every day, at least during the winter months (ie. 2 in a class of 25). If the issue was really the damage to a child's education or the efficient running of the school, then schools should spend the fines they collect from absent holiday kids on better hand sanitiser provision :-)
Anyhow, I thought smaller class sizes was a good thing?
Comments
Unfortunately using discretion creates inconsistency. If one family is allowed time off for a holiday then it would snowball and the school would see other families following which would affect attendane figures and could lead to the school being challenged re their attendance policy and absence rates. Therefore schools tend to take a fairly strict approach to cover themselves. Often done with a heavy heart.
The financial argument is a stronger argument.
As a matter of interest a fee schools less strict on time off.
A quick question though. How would those of you that feel inclined to take your holiday when it suits you feel if you received a letter on a Friday evening that said that you would have to make arrangements to look after your children for the next two weeks as their teacher was off to Florida as it's cheaper than going in any of the other 13 weeks holiday they get each year? And that you would be expected to put the hours in to ensure that they make up for any work they miss when the teacher comes back?
children on holiday that year ?
Anyway, teaching is their career choice so they know when their main holidays can be taken.
Don't know how taking child out for one week can seriously affect their education. More likely to suffer by being born in June and being educated alongside someone nearly a year older.
Btw, to any parents, you can get v cheap self catering accommodation in school hols at holidaylettings.co.uk or ownersdirect.com
Flights can be expensive, but you can still get deals at places like Expedia
As mentioned above, the govt/councils should focus on providing world class education, emphasise the importance thereof and let parents make their own minds up. I think the value of education is pretty well understood (let alone the free childcare aspect!)
However, I would probably seek out a different employer.
It does beg the question if one is willing to stick two fingers up at the school and the other children and their parents why doesn't one just stick two fingers up at the employer and take the holiday out of term time and see what happens when they get back?
My sister in law got married in italy a few years ago and I submitted my form for my girls to have a week off, the response I got was the eldest (9) was authorised for all 5 days and the youngest (6) was only authorised for 4!
This tells me that no one even looks at these authorisation forms and its all done on the numbers.
Now my eldest is at secondary though, I wouldn't take her out of school if I really didn't have to.
As for the pricing of holidays, can you really blame them?
so nor do the poor parents who have to take time off if they don't want to use up annual leave to cover it, schools cant have it both ways, moan threaten to fine for a few days off outside term time, yet strike during school time and the inset days , do the training in the school holidays
I don't know whether we've reached that stage as far as this issue is concerned (and we may not have), but the point is that you can't necessarily let parents make their own minds up. It depends - in this case on how many parents are trying to "beat the system".
(In the limit, the process of selfish, individual decision making can be completely self defeating, sometimes making everybody worse off. In this case, if everybody quits school early, holiday prices are no cheaper despite the disruption to schooling. It's a kind of arms race in which everybody loses. Sometimes you need rules to prevent self destruction.)
I don't like it when sensible discussions descend into further digs at teachers for their holidays etc. It is a perk of the job, yes. And we are fortunate, yes. But please don't think that teachers only work for the hours that schools are open to pupils. It's a little like saying a chef only works when their restaurant is open to customers.
I would happily break down my weekly hours for you but you wouldn't be interesting and neither is it easy to explain exactly what the job entails that people don't see or recognise.
It's a great job and I wouldn't do any other. But there is much more to it than occasionally standing in front of a group of children, arguing over coffee cups and sewing elbow patches in to our blazers.
I suspect this is roughly equivalent to the proportion of kids off sick every day, at least during the winter months (ie. 2 in a class of 25). If the issue was really the damage to a child's education or the efficient running of the school, then schools should spend the fines they collect from absent holiday kids on better hand sanitiser provision :-)
Anyhow, I thought smaller class sizes was a good thing?