Took my daughter out of school for two weeks just before Xmas to go to Florida. The school approved it, simply told them it was the only time I could get off work and was working all over Xmas (all bull). If they had refused it I would have taken her out regardless. If they'd fined me I would have told them to stick it up their arse and flatly refused to pay it. I know of two couples who have been fined sent the letter back advising that they were refusing to pay and no further action was taken.
I'm not sure this lying and breaking of the rules for your convenience is a particularly great example to your daughter for later life.
Its all subjective, I can never get time off at Christmas or any other break in term because I don't have kids so that obviously means I forfeit the right to that time for a holiday? Of course it doesn't but it doesn't bother me hugely at the moment. It is impossible to argue with the supply and demand principle because we don't live within a free enterprise.
It's well over the top fining people taking their children out of school for a couple of weeks to go on holiday.
Discretion I don't believe exists it just depends how busy the headteacher/administrator is when the written request goes in and who is that person to question if parents are taking their kids to see an elderly relative in Australia or going to Spain to have a break from the shit they go through at home for a couple of weeks. I appreciate it is not ideal and I'm sure wealthy parents take their children on holiday outside of term time but not everyone is that well off. I doubt I will ever be wealthy enough to have decent holidays in school breaks if I ever sire offspring and can't knock anyone who does
Personally i think it is ridiculous. Nothing will convince me that what a 6-10yr old covers in school during one week can't be easily caught up / done in advance.
Quality family time is in my opinion more essential than a week at school.
Wrong. I'm middle management in a Primary School in Surrey and I'm afraid that's not possible
For the record, we've fined a number of parents so far since the changes. Lots of interesting forms have come back lately - lots of family members seem to be dying abroad etc. it's ultimately up to you as a parent to decide - can your child afford to take the time out? What year are they in? How well are they doing?
Parents will make the £50 back on savings anyway so it's no deterrent.
But as someone else said, one week is an ENTIRE topic in maths. Which could be worth 5/6 marks at least in a SATS paper. Which could EASILY cost them a grade. Then the school is caned by Ofsted.
Of course, you can't have known this as you aren't inside the system but as usual, it's important to see every side.
Its all subjective, I can never get time off at Christmas or any other break in term because I don't have kids so that obviously means I forfeit the right to that time for a holiday? Of course it doesn't but it doesn't bother me hugely at the moment. It is impossible to argue with the supply and demand principle because we don't live within a free enterprise.
It's well over the top fining people taking their children out of school for a couple of weeks to go on holiday.
Discretion I don't believe exists it just depends how busy the headteacher/administrator is when the written request goes in and who is that person to question if parents are taking their kids to see an elderly relative in Australia or going to Spain to have a break from the shit they go through at home for a couple of weeks. I appreciate it is not ideal and I'm sure wealthy parents take their children on holiday outside of term time but not everyone is that well off. I doubt I will ever be wealthy enough to have decent holidays in school breaks if I ever sire offspring and can't knock anyone who does
Discretion exists to a degree such as visiting relatives overseas or going to a family event. Unfortunately you'd then get parents asking for permission to go abroad for a couple of weeks for a family issue when that is clearly a lie.
It has got to a sorry situation where trust and goodwill between schools and families is lost because attendance targets are set for schools at c. 96%. Falling below this can be detrimental to a school's inspection. If a pupil misses five days for a holiday then has another few days off here and there then they will fall below that target. It is a sign of the way schools are now expected to act Im afraid; too many targets to reach and too much of a focus on figures.
I know of some cases where some parents have even ben asked to provide proof of their children attending a funeral such as a death certificate or order of service etc. that stone sorry state that now exists so surely people can understand where schools are coming from even if you disagree with it.
The pressure we are under right now to 'achieve', whatever definition of that is used, is outrageous. I don't want to go into details for fear of being grassed but let's just say some senior members of staff at my place have lost their jobs for working to the same standards that were once lauded.
To add another balance to this btw, is the Finnish education system. They are allowed to take their kids out any day, any time. They are your kids - that's the principle. They have what is widely regarded as one of the most influential education systems in the world btw. Not just because of that, of course, but worth mentioning.
£50 quid fine or paying 3k more to go to florida? I'll take the fine thanks and before I go I'll give my young un' some 'extra' homework by asking the teacher what they'll be learning over the time she's away, okay i might not cover it all but anything is better then nothing.
I could laugh at the government trying to be firm about it, then you have teachers taking days off for strikes/training days etc in school time, do they get fined?
To add another balance to this btw, is the Finnish education system. They are allowed to take their kids out any day, any time. They are your kids - that's the principle. They have what is widely regarded as one of the most influential education systems in the world btw. Not just because of that, of course, but worth mentioning.
Compare Finland's top of the league position to England & NI's 19th for school leaver literacy. Looks like they are doing something right that we aren't.
So you study say 10 subjects for GCSE and have 6 one hour lessons a day. That is thirty lessons a week so three hours per subject per week on average. If missing three hours of Communication & design, or drama or English literature or PE or geography seriously undermines your performance in that subject then maybe the teacher isn't doing that good a job in the first place.
Bet you miss more than three hours a year in each subject by teacher turning up late to class or for Christmas concerts or charity days or school play or sports day or any other day the timetable is thrown out the window.
So you study say 10 subjects for GCSE and have 6 one hour lessons a day. That is thirty lessons a week so three hours per subject per week on average. If missing three hours of Communication & design, or drama or English literature or PE or geography seriously undermines your performance in that subject then maybe the teacher isn't doing that good a job in the first place.
Bet you miss more than three hours a year in each subject by teacher turning up late to class or for Christmas concerts or charity days or school play or sports day or any other day the timetable is thrown out the window.
Sorry but that is a really wrong attitude to missing school, 3 hours or even an hour can be hard to make up , because it's not just a matter of doing it when you get back as the new workload along with the old is going to make it more difficult, it might be that the pupil can't grasp part b until they have come to grips with part a, missing school meant the tuition for part a was missing, this pupil then can't move on with the rest of the class until part a has been properly explained , the teacher then has to take time out from the other 29 pupils to help this one, by the time this pupil has done part a the rest of the class has moved to part c, then part b becomes a problem because they spent to ouch time worrying about a, the parallel class has started talking about part d before that pupils class as the teacher is still busy trying to bring this one pupil up to speed. It has a knock on effect it then ultimately is not just that pupil that suffers. Also in a week the core subjects are a lot more than 3 hours, the smaller subjects are less.
Very interesting debate, whole spectrum of views and inputs. My kids are pre school and it will be interesting to see if my feelings change once they are in the system.
So you study say 10 subjects for GCSE and have 6 one hour lessons a day. That is thirty lessons a week so three hours per subject per week on average. If missing three hours of Communication & design, or drama or English literature or PE or geography seriously undermines your performance in that subject then maybe the teacher isn't doing that good a job in the first place.
Bet you miss more than three hours a year in each subject by teacher turning up late to class or for Christmas concerts or charity days or school play or sports day or any other day the timetable is thrown out the window.
Sorry but that is a really wrong attitude to missing school, 3 hours or even an hour can be hard to make up , because it's not just a matter of doing it when you get back as the new workload along with the old is going to make it more difficult, it might be that the pupil can't grasp part b until they have come to grips with part a, missing school meant the tuition for part a was missing, this pupil then can't move on with the rest of the class until part a has been properly explained , the teacher then has to take time out from the other 29 pupils to help this one, by the time this pupil has done part a the rest of the class has moved to part c, then part b becomes a problem because they spent to ouch time worrying about a, the parallel class has started talking about part d before that pupils class as the teacher is still busy trying to bring this one pupil up to speed. It has a knock on effect it then ultimately is not just that pupil that suffers. Also in a week the core subjects are a lot more than 3 hours, the smaller subjects are less.
But surely this all goes back to understanding the level of your child, where they are with their educational progress, making sure you take work away for them to learn before the go on holiday or to catch up on after etc etc.
This is before anyone begins to argue on the whole point of most of the curriculum anyway!
I might be wrong but I don't recall school skiing trips, weeks at inverlever lodge (teachers piss up) or day trips to France (teachers booze cruise) all taking place out of term time when I was at school.
Again guys, it was not teachers who made the five days of inset a year rule. Believe me we do work on these days.
I don't like it when sensible discussions descend into further digs at teachers for their holidays etc. It is a perk of the job, yes. And we are fortunate, yes. But please don't think that teachers only work for the hours that schools are open to pupils. It's a little like saying a chef only works when their restaurant is open to customers.
I would happily break down my weekly hours for you but you wouldn't be interesting and neither is it easy to explain exactly what the job entails that people don't see or recognise.
It's a great job and I wouldn't do any other. But there is much more to it than occasionally standing in front of a group of children, arguing over coffee cups and sewing elbow patches in to our blazers.
My sister is a primary teacher and she seems to do very long hours - in at 7.30 and out at 5.30 with work in the evenings. She also spends plenty of time at the school during holidays.
So you study say 10 subjects for GCSE and have 6 one hour lessons a day. That is thirty lessons a week so three hours per subject per week on average. If missing three hours of Communication & design, or drama or English literature or PE or geography seriously undermines your performance in that subject then maybe the teacher isn't doing that good a job in the first place.
Bet you miss more than three hours a year in each subject by teacher turning up late to class or for Christmas concerts or charity days or school play or sports day or any other day the timetable is thrown out the window.
Sorry but that is a really wrong attitude to missing school, 3 hours or even an hour can be hard to make up , because it's not just a matter of doing it when you get back as the new workload along with the old is going to make it more difficult, it might be that the pupil can't grasp part b until they have come to grips with part a, missing school meant the tuition for part a was missing, this pupil then can't move on with the rest of the class until part a has been properly explained , the teacher then has to take time out from the other 29 pupils to help this one, by the time this pupil has done part a the rest of the class has moved to part c, then part b becomes a problem because they spent to ouch time worrying about a, the parallel class has started talking about part d before that pupils class as the teacher is still busy trying to bring this one pupil up to speed. It has a knock on effect it then ultimately is not just that pupil that suffers. Also in a week the core subjects are a lot more than 3 hours, the smaller subjects are less.
But surely this all goes back to understanding the level of your child, where they are with their educational progress, making sure you take work away for them to learn before the go on holiday or to catch up on after etc etc.
This is before anyone begins to argue on the whole point of most of the curriculum anyway!
Not really, it's not just based on ability it's also not merely just work it's also tuition, you can't take that with you. You as a parent have no idea how much a child would cover at school in a particular week, each week varies. It could be that they have started a new book, a new project. It could be that your child may be excelling in maths whilst they were doing trigonometry and knows Pythagoras theory backwards, but the week they're away they start graph curves and the quadratic equation which they don't understand quite as well. A pupil that was excelling may then struggle on return. Also your child's ability is irrelevant as your child will be in classes based on ability. You also haven't considered having more than one child, surely their abilities would differ. Another thing is people say they can take work with them and do it, realistically how many children would go on holiday and do 30 hours of school work?
Very topical for me. On monday i asked the Mrs if our boy could miss ONE day of school as i could get a really good deal to Vancouver. No she said, he's in year six and this is his most important before secondary AND being a johnny foreigner she gave me the whole bit about how lucky we are in this country blah blah. She also told me that two other big problems at our boys school are persistant lateness and Pakistani kids going home for a couple of months at a time.
I've got to be honest if our schools were turning out geniuses at working class level I would say keep the kids in school.
But some of the apprentices I've had through work are borderline special needs with their basic maths and grasp of English. Let alone trigonometry or pythagoras theorem. All of them I have had to teach how to read a map, about grid references. Real basic stuff. A fortnight out of school once a year has not made them that weak in those areas.
The exam results may be looking great but the students being churned out with these results (cannot get an apprenticeship without good grades) with a shocking lack of ability to prove their learning troubles me. Either the teachers are fiddling figures somehow or they are teaching the wrong things
Either way I'm not going to be convinced taking your kids on holiday in term time is a factor in your overall learning from a secondary education
Fining doesn't acknowledge or tackle underlying causative problems. My parents valued education above all else, they saw it as the only way to improve your lot in life. Teachers were almost gods and I had to go to school regardless of weather or illness. The issue of holidays wasn't on the agenda as there weren't any. We seem to have lost the sense of how important education is and also lost the idea that head teachers were best placed to use their discretion. I hate this fining idea.
Comments
So, if this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marge_vs._Singles,_Seniors,_Childless_Couples_and_Teens,_and_Gays
was posted before...well...tell your kids about it.
;-)
It's well over the top fining people taking their children out of school for a couple of weeks to go on holiday.
Discretion I don't believe exists it just depends how busy the headteacher/administrator is when the written request goes in and who is that person to question if parents are taking their kids to see an elderly relative in Australia or going to Spain to have a break from the shit they go through at home for a couple of weeks. I appreciate it is not ideal and I'm sure wealthy parents take their children on holiday outside of term time but not everyone is that well off. I doubt I will ever be wealthy enough to have decent holidays in school breaks if I ever sire offspring and can't knock anyone who does
Parents will make the £50 back on savings anyway so it's no deterrent.
Of course, you can't have known this as you aren't inside the system but as usual, it's important to see every side.
It has got to a sorry situation where trust and goodwill between schools and families is lost because attendance targets are set for schools at c. 96%. Falling below this can be detrimental to a school's inspection. If a pupil misses five days for a holiday then has another few days off here and there then they will fall below that target. It is a sign of the way schools are now expected to act Im afraid; too many targets to reach and too much of a focus on figures.
I know of some cases where some parents have even ben asked to provide proof of their children attending a funeral such as a death certificate or order of service etc. that stone sorry state that now exists so surely people can understand where schools are coming from even if you disagree with it.
What enforcements are in place to make the parents pay these stupid fines?
Do traveller parents get constantly fined?
The fines are issued by the Council and they serve them. Court summons if they don't pay.
I could laugh at the government trying to be firm about it, then you have teachers taking days off for strikes/training days etc in school time, do they get fined?
http://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/oct/08/england-young-people-league-table-basic-skills-oecd
Bet you miss more than three hours a year in each subject by teacher turning up late to class or for Christmas concerts or charity days or school play or sports day or any other day the timetable is thrown out the window.
This is before anyone begins to argue on the whole point of most of the curriculum anyway!
It may be she's just not very good at it !
No she said, he's in year six and this is his most important before secondary AND being a johnny foreigner she gave me the whole bit about how lucky we are in this country blah blah.
She also told me that two other big problems at our boys school are persistant lateness and Pakistani kids going home for a couple of months at a time.
I've got to be honest if our schools were turning out geniuses at working class level I would say keep the kids in school.
But some of the apprentices I've had through work are borderline special needs with their basic maths and grasp of English. Let alone trigonometry or pythagoras theorem. All of them I have had to teach how to read a map, about grid references. Real basic stuff. A fortnight out of school once a year has not made them that weak in those areas.
The exam results may be looking great but the students being churned out with these results (cannot get an apprenticeship without good grades) with a shocking lack of ability to prove their learning troubles me. Either the teachers are fiddling figures somehow or they are teaching the wrong things
Either way I'm not going to be convinced taking your kids on holiday in term time is a factor in your overall learning from a secondary education