We'd open the borders and hand out jobs, benefits, housing, education and health care. Once that didn't work then we'd spend 15 years upsetting their human rights by trying to get rid of a few of their leaders.
600 rocket attacks in a few weeks against their people. What should their response be exactly ?
Now, let's consider how the UK Government had responded to the Republic of Ireland because a few nutters in the PIRA decided to blow up parts of the UK. That's pretty much the same as the Strip and the Palestinians isn't it? Gaza: pretty much defenceless, same as RoI. What would your reaction have been if we'd sent in some planes and a few cruise missiles from a submarine to blow up Dublin? (With fair warning we were going to do it of course!) Israel is a terrorist state in breach of countless UN resolutions. To date the USofA has vetoed 42 UN condemnations of Israel. But there are another 102 that Israel has just ignored.
Of course they should be kicked out - of everything. But start with Uefa because they are not in Europe anyway and see how they get on playing against their middle east neighbours. They shouldn't be in the Eurovision song contest either!
The thing is that the Israelis are really starting to push their luck with the Western world now, Europe and the US are getting pissed off with dealing with the blowback from the Palestinian situation and want it solved.
Netanyahu has publicly scorned Obama and Kerry - that won't be forgotten by the Yanks very easily because he is going out of his way to block any peace talks and they just do not need any extra aggravation in the Middle-East - they have plenty to deal with already.
Both sides are destructive and arguably evil, who would commit genocide on the other if they could get away with it no questions asked. The difference is one side has rockets which don't really do all that much, let's not forget not one Israeli has died from the rockets fired recently, 172 Palestinians have, the other has fighter jets, tanks and even bulldozers.
I have no axe to grind, nothing against Jews, in fact if anything I am more hesitant about Islam than Judaism, but what Israel do in the middle east, they would never get away with on the national stage had the holocaust not have happened, and the parralels between the two are undoubtedly there.
I feel for the Palestinians like almost no other group on earth. They are suffering because we in the west decided they would by displacing them, if I was a Palestinian and my entire family had been killed by one of Israels bombs, and I had absolutely nothing, which is the case for most Palestinians, I would go out and do something. But they are largely uneducated and unfunded and are amazingly poor at putting their side across on the world stage in comparison to well funded well educated Israelis who are only to happy to call you an anti Semite if you claim that murder of children with phosphorous bombs is immoral.
People are scared of taking on Israel, along with a complete lack of appetite to take on an ally due to the fact it is a vital stepping stone into the region and one of the only sources of stability in the region. All this means the Palestinians are set to suffer, and ironically, due to the pursuance of a Jewish homeland, the Palestinians have lost theirs.
It's important to note not all Jews are pro Israel or condone what they do. One of my flatmates at uni who was born in Israel and comes from a practising family regularly cringes at some members of his family's Zionist views. I have many Jewish relatives on my mothers side (which, according to Jewish doctrine technically makes me ethnically Jewish, if there is such a thing) and some of their Zionist views and "Israel have done nothing wrong" blindness is so bad it's almost laughable.
The formation of the state was a bad idea, but now it exists, it exists. However the way the state behaves is disgusting and their approach of "simply defending themselves" clearly does not work and hasn't worked.
No worries good old Tony Blair is there to assist in his "middle east role" ------o dear no 5 star hotels in Gazza------Cherry cant get her agenda or champers in "Palestine"---no speaking roles for a $million dollars----- looks like Tony wont be doing much(good at that tho)--------------------hold on TONY son loads of 5 star hotels in Qatar and a good chance that wont know your a leach and scum bag ofthe first order.
Both sides are destructive and arguably evil, who would commit genocide on the other if they could get away with it no questions asked. The difference is one side has rockets which don't really do all that much, let's not forget not one Israeli has died from the rockets fired recently, 172 Palestinians have, the other has fighter jets, tanks and even bulldozers.
I have no axe to grind, nothing against Jews, in fact if anything I am more hesitant about Islam than Judaism, but what Israel do in the middle east, they would never get away with on the national stage had the holocaust not have happened, and the parralels between the two are undoubtedly there.
I feel for the Palestinians like almost no other group on earth. They are suffering because we in the west decided they would by displacing them, if I was a Palestinian and my entire family had been killed by one of Israels bombs, and I had absolutely nothing, which is the case for most Palestinians, I would go out and do something. But they are largely uneducated and unfunded and are amazingly poor at putting their side across on the world stage in comparison to well funded well educated Israelis who are only to happy to call you an anti Semite if you claim that murder of children with phosphorous bombs is immoral.
People are scared of taking on Israel, along with a complete lack of appetite to take on an ally due to the fact it is a vital stepping stone into the region and one of the only sources of stability in the region. All this means the Palestinians are set to suffer, and ironically, due to the pursuance of a Jewish homeland, the Palestinians have lost theirs.
It's important to note not all Jews are pro Israel or condone what they do. One of my flatmates at uni who was born in Israel and comes from a practising family regularly cringes at some members of his family's Zionist views. I have many Jewish relatives on my mothers side (which, according to Jewish doctrine technically makes me ethnically Jewish, if there is such a thing) and some of their Zionist views and "Israel have done nothing wrong" blindness is so bad it's almost laughable.
The formation of the state was a bad idea, but now it exists, it exists. However the way the state behaves is disgusting and their approach of "simply defending themselves" clearly does not work and hasn't worked.
I agree and I find the anti Israeli Jews refreshing. There was a protest in High Street Kensington and a Rabbi was there protesting with the others.
Interesting enough Israel's defence spending is not even in the top 15 in the world. - I expected it to be a lot higher considering Saudi Arabia is no.4
I remember Desmond Morris explaining that sport was a proxy for having wars. You only have to look at the reaction in Germany, I doubt it would have been any more jubilant had they won World War II.
So why make it more difficult for nations to use sport as a proxy for a war. Is a coincidence that in the East where religion is far more important than sport, they settle differences by annihilating one another rather than competing against one another in sport.
As an aside, I don’t understand why people with no personal involvement in the Middle East swear undying support for Palestinians who choose martyrdom as a mass participation sport, apart from the same reason an uncommitted Wimbledon crowd cheer for the no hope unseeded qualifier being taken apart by a ruthless pro.
Interesting enough Israel's defence spending is not even in the top 15 in the world. - I expected it to be a lot higher considering Saudi Arabia is no.4
Important to differentiate between what they spend on defence compared to what they end up getting access to.
The US-Israeli defence/intelligence alliance reaps plenty of rewards.
I love the Tim Minchin song line on Judaeo-Palestinian relations...."So, we don't eat pork..... and you don't eat pork, so let's not eat pork together!"
I agree and I find the anti Israeli Jews refreshing. There was a protest in High Street Kensington and a Rabbi was there protesting with the others.
And the great thing is that as more anti-Zionist Jews speak out more feel able to do so, which in turn reduces the ability of the Zionists to accuse non-Jews who criticise their actions of anti-semiticism.
I find it depressing that those that listen to the mainstream media are under the impression this is some kind of defence by Israel, or an equally matched war (for example the BBC regularly use headlines like "Hamas and Israel exchange fire" when of course the Hamas missiles are ineffective and more symbolic than anything while Israel are using one of the most advanced military forces in the world (funded by the US)).
The facts really are simple. Whatever side of the illegal occupation/holy land for the Jews as designated by God (you might be able to guess which side I'm on), but whichever side you favour, the response from Israel is massively disproportionate and against countless international laws.
Number of deaths in Israel since the recent conflict began - 0, with 2 injured Number of deaths in Gaza in the same time - 170, with a further 1,140 injured, many seriously
Five days ago Israel cut off the water supply to the Gaza strip
The Israeli government have used banned white phosphorus against Gaza in the past, and allegedly again in the last week.
When "searching" for the three kidnapped teenagers a few weeks ago they slaughtered six Palestinians and arrested 500 (!). Now it is alleged that they knew the boys had been killed before they committed these actions in a bid to increase sympathy from the world's governments before their latest land grabbing offensive.
The UN has pleaded for a cease fire, Israel responded by saying they would be increasing their offensive.
Hamas is a democratically elected party yet is painted by many in the media as some kind of rogue terrorist organisation.
Israel has said they are only targeting buildings associated with Hamas but as a democratically elected party that broad definition leaves the legitimacy of their actions open to massive abuse as most of the population have either voted for, or supported Hamas at some point in recent years.
And anyone that questions the media's bias over this? Where has the coverage been of the thousands protesting in cities across the country, and across the world, over the last few days? Why was there rolling 24hours a day coverage of the deaths and funerals of the three Jewish teenagers (which was a tragedy that everyone should condemn) but no coverage of funerals or naming of the 1,500 children that the Israeli army have been murdering for the last decade? Is Israeli life worth more than Palestinian?
I totally agree that this recent conflict has again put Tony Blair's role as middle East "Peace Envoy" under the spotlight again and exposed it for the sham it is. While he advises the terrorist state nations governments and travels to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Israel, etc, frequently, and has financial connections to the rulers and corporate interests there, he has been to Gaza ONCE in the last seven years of his role.
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.” - Malcolm X
"When Israelis in the occupied territories now claim that they have to defend themselves, they are defending themselves in the sense that any military occupier has to defend itself against the population they are crushing. You can’t defend yourself when you’re militarily occupying someone else’s land. That’s not defense. Call it what you like, it’s not defines." - Noam Chomsky
What you can do -
Sign here to get Blair sacked from his role as peace envoy
Boycott products that have been made in factories or land in occupied territories (Sodastream being one of the most prominent). Barcode numbers that start "729" are Israeli goods.
And the only other thing I would plead that everyone does, is forget party politics in this country, and forget religious leanings, but think of the hundreds of children and vulnerable that are under threat by Israel and don't take the reporting on the BBC and Western media at face value. Of course Hamas should stop firing missiles at Israel and they are playing their part, but having been driven from their homes and land in 1948 and 1967 and then oppressed in conditions inhumane by any definition, where Israel controls the food and medical supplies entering the massively overpopulated region and destroys buildings and homes with alarming regularity, it is hard to blame them fighting to defend their families and children and try and raise awareness around the world's governments. Prod a caged animal long enough and it will try to bite you.
The tide of opinion is turning and I hope with all my heart that in my lifetime we'll see a two-state solution with both Jews and Palestinians living peacefully alongside each other. I suspect that in 20 or 30 years time we'll look back aghast at what was going on in Gaza and the West Bank right now in the same way we look back at many other similar situations from the past and tell ourselves it couldn't happen now in the 21st century. Those that try and dismiss these concerns as anti-Semitic should hang their heads in shame.
Damn... I promised myself this morning I wasn't going to post on this thread again! I might have to post a Whose Rack for balance.
I remember Desmond Morris explaining that sport was a proxy for having wars. You only have to look at the reaction in Germany, I doubt it would have been any more jubilant had they won World War II.
So why make it more difficult for nations to use sport as a proxy for a war. Is a coincidence that in the East where religion is far more important than sport, they settle differences by annihilating one another rather than competing against one another in sport.
As an aside, I don’t understand why people with no personal involvement in the Middle East swear undying support for Palestinians who choose martyrdom as a mass participation sport, apart from the same reason an uncommitted Wimbledon crowd cheer for the no hope unseeded qualifier being taken apart by a ruthless pro.
They don't "choose" martyrdom in the same way that they didn't "choose" to be slaughtered, raped, and driven out of their land in 1948 and 1967.
If I saw my children and my neighbours children being blown apart by indiscriminate and constant bombing then I too, with nothing to lose any more, would go out and fight for the rights of my people.
Suggesting they "choose" martyrdom is one of the most offensive things I think I've read on here. Try putting yourself in their shoes and see what you think you'd do. Shrug your shoulders and get on with life? And exactly how are they martyring themselves anyway? They can't leave Gaza or the West Bank, they can't fish in their own waters, they can't even go and see their families that live beyond checkpoints that the Israelis control. Just what are they supposed to do, genuinely? Who is being a martyr exactly? The four year old terrorists that Israel have been bravely slaughtering over the last few days?
Interesting enough Israel's defence spending is not even in the top 15 in the world. - I expected it to be a lot higher considering Saudi Arabia is no.4
Does that include or exclude the $3.15 billion of US military aid per year do you know?
OK the children and women don't choose martyrdom it's their leaders who choose for them. Dead bodies particularly children help the Hamas war effort. That's offensive to me. Why would you encourage retaliation into built up areas. Doesn't mean I support Israel and I don't take selective offence, plague on both their houses.
I agree and I find the anti Israeli Jews refreshing. There was a protest in High Street Kensington and a Rabbi was there protesting with the others.
And the great thing is that as more anti-Zionist Jews speak out more feel able to do so, which in turn reduces the ability of the Zionists to accuse non-Jews who criticise their actions of anti-semiticism.
I find it depressing that those that listen to the mainstream media are under the impression this is some kind of defence by Israel, or an equally matched war (for example the BBC regularly use headlines like "Hamas and Israel exchange fire" when of course the Hamas missiles are ineffective and more symbolic than anything while Israel are using one of the most advanced military forces in the world (funded by the US)).
The facts really are simple. Whatever side of the illegal occupation/holy land for the Jews as designated by God (you might be able to guess which side I'm on), but whichever side you favour, the response from Israel is massively disproportionate and against countless international laws.
Number of deaths in Israel since the recent conflict began - 0, with 2 injured Number of deaths in Gaza in the same time - 170, with a further 1,140 injured, many seriously
Five days ago Israel cut off the water supply to the Gaza strip
The Israeli government have used banned white phosphorus against Gaza in the past, and allegedly again in the last week.
When "searching" for the three kidnapped teenagers a few weeks ago they slaughtered six Palestinians and arrested 500 (!). Now it is alleged that they knew the boys had been killed before they committed these actions in a bid to increase sympathy from the world's governments before their latest land grabbing offensive.
The UN has pleaded for a cease fire, Israel responded by saying they would be increasing their offensive.
Hamas is a democratically elected party yet is painted by many in the media as some kind of rogue terrorist organisation.
Israel has said they are only targeting buildings associated with Hamas but as a democratically elected party that broad definition leaves the legitimacy of their actions open to massive abuse as most of the population have either voted for, or supported Hamas at some point in recent years.
And anyone that questions the media's bias over this? Where has the coverage been of the thousands protesting in cities across the country, and across the world, over the last few days? Why was there rolling 24hours a day coverage of the deaths and funerals of the three Jewish teenagers (which was a tragedy that everyone should condemn) but no coverage of funerals or naming of the 1,500 children that the Israeli army have been murdering for the last decade? Is Israeli life worth more than Palestinian?
I totally agree that this recent conflict has again put Tony Blair's role as middle East "Peace Envoy" under the spotlight again and exposed it for the sham it is. While he advises the terrorist state nations governments and travels to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Israel, etc, frequently, and has financial connections to the rulers and corporate interests there, he has been to Gaza ONCE in the last seven years of his role.
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.” - Malcolm X
"When Israelis in the occupied territories now claim that they have to defend themselves, they are defending themselves in the sense that any military occupier has to defend itself against the population they are crushing. You can’t defend yourself when you’re militarily occupying someone else’s land. That’s not defense. Call it what you like, it’s not defines." - Noam Chomsky
What you can do -
Sign here to get Blair sacked from his role as peace envoy
Boycott products that have been made in factories or land in occupied territories (Sodastream being one of the most prominent). Barcode numbers that start "729" are Israeli goods.
And the only other thing I would plead that everyone does, is forget party politics in this country, and forget religious leanings, but think of the hundreds of children and vulnerable that are under threat by Israel and don't take the reporting on the BBC and Western media at face value. Of course Hamas should stop firing missiles at Israel and they are playing their part, but having been driven from their homes and land in 1948 and 1967 and then oppressed in conditions inhumane by any definition, where Israel controls the food and medical supplies entering the massively overpopulated region and destroys buildings and homes with alarming regularity, it is hard to blame them fighting to defend their families and children and try and raise awareness around the world's governments. Prod a caged animal long enough and it will try to bite you.
The tide of opinion is turning and I hope with all my heart that in my lifetime we'll see a two-state solution with both Jews and Palestinians living peacefully alongside each other. I suspect that in 20 or 30 years time we'll look back aghast at what was going on in Gaza and the West Bank right now in the same way we look back at many other similar situations from the past and tell ourselves it couldn't happen now in the 21st century. Those that try and dismiss these concerns as anti-Semitic should hang their heads in shame.
Damn... I promised myself this morning I wasn't going to post on this thread again! I might have to post a Whose Rack for balance.
Good post. I for one had no idea the history behind all the violence until reading this thread. It seems to me the general consensus is one of sympathy and support for the Palestinians. The You Tube video seemed to be slightly pro Israel though.
Why are people so obsessed with Israel/Palestine when there are so many conflicts in the world which are magnitudes worse. Whichever side you are on, it is terrible that nearly 200 Paelstinians have died this year as a result of Israeli aristrikes.
But what about the 10,000 plus casualties in South Sudan this year?
950 Boku Harum militants dies in Nigerian captivity last year. Imagine the outrage if that had been Isreal - but how many of us had even heard of that.
More than 5,000 have died in internal wars in north-west Pakistan this year so far. At least 50 times as many Somalians have been killed in their civil war since 1991 as Palestinians since 1948.
The list could go on and on. But the Israeli actions take almost all of teh attention and capaigning the exclusion of all but the very worst.
I agree and I find the anti Israeli Jews refreshing. There was a protest in High Street Kensington and a Rabbi was there protesting with the others.
And the great thing is that as more anti-Zionist Jews speak out more feel able to do so, which in turn reduces the ability of the Zionists to accuse non-Jews who criticise their actions of anti-semiticism.
I find it depressing that those that listen to the mainstream media are under the impression this is some kind of defence by Israel, or an equally matched war (for example the BBC regularly use headlines like "Hamas and Israel exchange fire" when of course the Hamas missiles are ineffective and more symbolic than anything while Israel are using one of the most advanced military forces in the world (funded by the US)).
The facts really are simple. Whatever side of the illegal occupation/holy land for the Jews as designated by God (you might be able to guess which side I'm on), but whichever side you favour, the response from Israel is massively disproportionate and against countless international laws.
Number of deaths in Israel since the recent conflict began - 0, with 2 injured Number of deaths in Gaza in the same time - 170, with a further 1,140 injured, many seriously
Five days ago Israel cut off the water supply to the Gaza strip
The Israeli government have used banned white phosphorus against Gaza in the past, and allegedly again in the last week.
When "searching" for the three kidnapped teenagers a few weeks ago they slaughtered six Palestinians and arrested 500 (!). Now it is alleged that they knew the boys had been killed before they committed these actions in a bid to increase sympathy from the world's governments before their latest land grabbing offensive.
The UN has pleaded for a cease fire, Israel responded by saying they would be increasing their offensive.
Hamas is a democratically elected party yet is painted by many in the media as some kind of rogue terrorist organisation.
Israel has said they are only targeting buildings associated with Hamas but as a democratically elected party that broad definition leaves the legitimacy of their actions open to massive abuse as most of the population have either voted for, or supported Hamas at some point in recent years.
And anyone that questions the media's bias over this? Where has the coverage been of the thousands protesting in cities across the country, and across the world, over the last few days? Why was there rolling 24hours a day coverage of the deaths and funerals of the three Jewish teenagers (which was a tragedy that everyone should condemn) but no coverage of funerals or naming of the 1,500 children that the Israeli army have been murdering for the last decade? Is Israeli life worth more than Palestinian?
I totally agree that this recent conflict has again put Tony Blair's role as middle East "Peace Envoy" under the spotlight again and exposed it for the sham it is. While he advises the terrorist state nations governments and travels to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Israel, etc, frequently, and has financial connections to the rulers and corporate interests there, he has been to Gaza ONCE in the last seven years of his role.
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.” - Malcolm X
"When Israelis in the occupied territories now claim that they have to defend themselves, they are defending themselves in the sense that any military occupier has to defend itself against the population they are crushing. You can’t defend yourself when you’re militarily occupying someone else’s land. That’s not defense. Call it what you like, it’s not defines." - Noam Chomsky
What you can do -
Sign here to get Blair sacked from his role as peace envoy
Boycott products that have been made in factories or land in occupied territories (Sodastream being one of the most prominent). Barcode numbers that start "729" are Israeli goods.
And the only other thing I would plead that everyone does, is forget party politics in this country, and forget religious leanings, but think of the hundreds of children and vulnerable that are under threat by Israel and don't take the reporting on the BBC and Western media at face value. Of course Hamas should stop firing missiles at Israel and they are playing their part, but having been driven from their homes and land in 1948 and 1967 and then oppressed in conditions inhumane by any definition, where Israel controls the food and medical supplies entering the massively overpopulated region and destroys buildings and homes with alarming regularity, it is hard to blame them fighting to defend their families and children and try and raise awareness around the world's governments. Prod a caged animal long enough and it will try to bite you.
The tide of opinion is turning and I hope with all my heart that in my lifetime we'll see a two-state solution with both Jews and Palestinians living peacefully alongside each other. I suspect that in 20 or 30 years time we'll look back aghast at what was going on in Gaza and the West Bank right now in the same way we look back at many other similar situations from the past and tell ourselves it couldn't happen now in the 21st century. Those that try and dismiss these concerns as anti-Semitic should hang their heads in shame.
Damn... I promised myself this morning I wasn't going to post on this thread again! I might have to post a Whose Rack for balance.
Excellent post Leaburn - I too hope for a two state solution but have little hope it will happen in my lifetime. The American's have blocked many U.N. resolutions calling for Israel to leave and stop building villages in the occupied territories. It must be hell for ordinary citizens of Gaza who just wish for a normal life - working to raise a family in peace to be subject to death and destruction every few years.
I worked with several Palestinian Jordanians out in Saudi Arabia. It was a real eye-opener to hear the uncensored other side of the story. We really do get fed a pro-Israeli diet over here in the West, although a Channel 4 documentary scathing about Israel's part in the conflict a few years ago was a bit of a landmark perhaps. It's heartening to read so much objectivity here.
One of my colleagues had his wife and children in Gaza, constantly in fear of their life. Jordan has traditionally been a very tolerant nation, with Jews, Christians and Muslims able to worship freely in synagogues, churches and mosques next to each other in their streets. Interestingly, their beef is not with Jews at all - it's with Zionists and a Western media they perceive as being pro-Israel regardless of what they do. My friends have seen things no-one should see.
Hamas are what they are, but the Israelis are as bad as the terrorists if not worse. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the 1948 establishment of the state of Israel - and I have some sympathy with why that location is important - if Israel desisted from trying to steal land then a ceasefire would be relatively straightforward to maintain. 1948 was a disaster for the region.
Why are people so obsessed with Israel/Palestine when there are so many conflicts in the world which are magnitudes worse. Whichever side you are on, it is terrible that nearly 200 Paelstinians have died this year as a result of Israeli aristrikes.
But what about the 10,000 plus casualties in South Sudan this year?
950 Boku Harum militants dies in Nigerian captivity last year. Imagine the outrage if that had been Isreal - but how many of us had even heard of that.
More than 5,000 have died in internal wars in north-west Pakistan this year so far. At least 50 times as many Somalians have been killed in their civil war since 1991 as Palestinians since 1948.
The list could go on and on. But the Israeli actions take almost all of teh attention and capaigning the exclusion of all but the very worst.
my showing solidarity with the palestinians is not obsessive. i can speak just as passionately regarding kashmir, chechnya, chiapas(mexico), haiti, syria, lebanon, afghanistan, etc. etc. etc. . however, zionist occupied palestine (stop calling it israel and by definition legitimizing their ethnic cleansing/land-grab/apartheid 1948 to date), does remain an emblematic issue for the muslim and zionist world. nevertheless, outstanding point jints, i love it when others "connects the (global) dots" with conflicts beyond the soundbites - seemingly, and i would assert, naturally, wherever big model (ie. over 100 participants) politics/social control intersect with capitalism, there is the inevitable oppression/repression/suppression; and also, it is always insecure little "men" in charge...and please, margaret? golda? hillary next? these were/are men but for their cunty region. so yes, always connect the dots...
At the very least they should only compete in geographical competitions they are qualified to compete in. Being treated as Europeans can't help their long term assimilation in the region.
A Times article (our most prestigious paper?) reported that Israel in response to the murder of the three teenagers, had rounded up hundreds of "fighters". I wrote and pointed out that they actually imprisoned randomly selected young men without trial as an act of revenge and their reporting did nothing to help it's readers understand a complicated issue.
At the very least they should only compete in geographical competitions they are qualified to compete in. Being treated as Europeans can't help their long term assimilation in the region.
in reality, in 1948 it was a terrible idea, and is still a failed state and zionist myth, underpinned by a sub-text of anti-arab fears from the pink/euro-centric world.
I saw a documentary on YouTube (can't remember what it was called so sorry, no link) about how African migrants in Israel are treated. For a people that have experienced the Holocaust, the way they treat others is truly shocking.
I saw a documentary on YouTube (can't remember what it was called so sorry, no link) about how African migrants in Israel are treated. For a people that have experienced the Holocaust, the way they treat others is truly shocking.
indeed addickupnorth, the jews who were perceived to be the most persecuted in 1938-45 soon became the most prominent persecutor!
I agree and I find the anti Israeli Jews refreshing. There was a protest in High Street Kensington and a Rabbi was there protesting with the others.
And the great thing is that as more anti-Zionist Jews speak out more feel able to do so, which in turn reduces the ability of the Zionists to accuse non-Jews who criticise their actions of anti-semiticism.
I find it depressing that those that listen to the mainstream media are under the impression this is some kind of defence by Israel, or an equally matched war (for example the BBC regularly use headlines like "Hamas and Israel exchange fire" when of course the Hamas missiles are ineffective and more symbolic than anything while Israel are using one of the most advanced military forces in the world (funded by the US)).
The facts really are simple. Whatever side of the illegal occupation/holy land for the Jews as designated by God (you might be able to guess which side I'm on), but whichever side you favour, the response from Israel is massively disproportionate and against countless international laws.
Number of deaths in Israel since the recent conflict began - 0, with 2 injured Number of deaths in Gaza in the same time - 170, with a further 1,140 injured, many seriously
Five days ago Israel cut off the water supply to the Gaza strip
The Israeli government have used banned white phosphorus against Gaza in the past, and allegedly again in the last week.
When "searching" for the three kidnapped teenagers a few weeks ago they slaughtered six Palestinians and arrested 500 (!). Now it is alleged that they knew the boys had been killed before they committed these actions in a bid to increase sympathy from the world's governments before their latest land grabbing offensive.
The UN has pleaded for a cease fire, Israel responded by saying they would be increasing their offensive.
Hamas is a democratically elected party yet is painted by many in the media as some kind of rogue terrorist organisation.
Israel has said they are only targeting buildings associated with Hamas but as a democratically elected party that broad definition leaves the legitimacy of their actions open to massive abuse as most of the population have either voted for, or supported Hamas at some point in recent years.
And anyone that questions the media's bias over this? Where has the coverage been of the thousands protesting in cities across the country, and across the world, over the last few days? Why was there rolling 24hours a day coverage of the deaths and funerals of the three Jewish teenagers (which was a tragedy that everyone should condemn) but no coverage of funerals or naming of the 1,500 children that the Israeli army have been murdering for the last decade? Is Israeli life worth more than Palestinian?
I totally agree that this recent conflict has again put Tony Blair's role as middle East "Peace Envoy" under the spotlight again and exposed it for the sham it is. While he advises the terrorist state nations governments and travels to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Israel, etc, frequently, and has financial connections to the rulers and corporate interests there, he has been to Gaza ONCE in the last seven years of his role.
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.” - Malcolm X
"When Israelis in the occupied territories now claim that they have to defend themselves, they are defending themselves in the sense that any military occupier has to defend itself against the population they are crushing. You can’t defend yourself when you’re militarily occupying someone else’s land. That’s not defense. Call it what you like, it’s not defines." - Noam Chomsky
What you can do -
Sign here to get Blair sacked from his role as peace envoy
Boycott products that have been made in factories or land in occupied territories (Sodastream being one of the most prominent). Barcode numbers that start "729" are Israeli goods.
And the only other thing I would plead that everyone does, is forget party politics in this country, and forget religious leanings, but think of the hundreds of children and vulnerable that are under threat by Israel and don't take the reporting on the BBC and Western media at face value. Of course Hamas should stop firing missiles at Israel and they are playing their part, but having been driven from their homes and land in 1948 and 1967 and then oppressed in conditions inhumane by any definition, where Israel controls the food and medical supplies entering the massively overpopulated region and destroys buildings and homes with alarming regularity, it is hard to blame them fighting to defend their families and children and try and raise awareness around the world's governments. Prod a caged animal long enough and it will try to bite you.
The tide of opinion is turning and I hope with all my heart that in my lifetime we'll see a two-state solution with both Jews and Palestinians living peacefully alongside each other. I suspect that in 20 or 30 years time we'll look back aghast at what was going on in Gaza and the West Bank right now in the same way we look back at many other similar situations from the past and tell ourselves it couldn't happen now in the 21st century. Those that try and dismiss these concerns as anti-Semitic should hang their heads in shame.
Damn... I promised myself this morning I wasn't going to post on this thread again! I might have to post a Whose Rack for balance.
Excellent post Leaburn - I too hope for a two state solution but have little hope it will happen in my lifetime. The American's have blocked many U.N. resolutions calling for Israel to leave and stop building villages in the occupied territories. It must be hell for ordinary citizens of Gaza who just wish for a normal life - working to raise a family in peace to be subject to death and destruction every few years.
What is the Israeli economy like? Do they have oil/gas? They seem to spend a lot on defence. Do they get funding from the U.S?
Israel are surrounded by countries who hate them and want them destroyed. Those same countries do very little for the Palestinians. As for the sad deaths of civilians just have a think about the number of civilians killed in our military involvements.
Comments
That's pretty much the same as the Strip and the Palestinians isn't it? Gaza: pretty much defenceless, same as RoI. What would your reaction have been if we'd sent in some planes and a few cruise missiles from a submarine to blow up Dublin? (With fair warning we were going to do it of course!)
Israel is a terrorist state in breach of countless UN resolutions. To date the USofA has vetoed 42 UN condemnations of Israel. But there are another 102 that Israel has just ignored.
Of course they should be kicked out - of everything. But start with Uefa because they are not in Europe anyway and see how they get on playing against their middle east neighbours. They shouldn't be in the Eurovision song contest either!
Netanyahu has publicly scorned Obama and Kerry - that won't be forgotten by the Yanks very easily because he is going out of his way to block any peace talks and they just do not need any extra aggravation in the Middle-East - they have plenty to deal with already.
The formation of the state was a bad idea, but now it exists, it exists. However the way the state behaves is disgusting and their approach of "simply defending themselves" clearly does not work and hasn't worked.
l
So why make it more difficult for nations to use sport as a proxy for a war. Is a coincidence that in the East where religion is far more important than sport, they settle differences by annihilating one another rather than competing against one another in sport.
As an aside, I don’t understand why people with no personal involvement in the Middle East swear undying support for Palestinians who choose martyrdom as a mass participation sport, apart from the same reason an uncommitted Wimbledon crowd cheer for the no hope unseeded qualifier being taken apart by a ruthless pro.
The US-Israeli defence/intelligence alliance reaps plenty of rewards.
I find it depressing that those that listen to the mainstream media are under the impression this is some kind of defence by Israel, or an equally matched war (for example the BBC regularly use headlines like "Hamas and Israel exchange fire" when of course the Hamas missiles are ineffective and more symbolic than anything while Israel are using one of the most advanced military forces in the world (funded by the US)).
The facts really are simple. Whatever side of the illegal occupation/holy land for the Jews as designated by God (you might be able to guess which side I'm on), but whichever side you favour, the response from Israel is massively disproportionate and against countless international laws.
Number of deaths in Israel since the recent conflict began - 0, with 2 injured
Number of deaths in Gaza in the same time - 170, with a further 1,140 injured, many seriously
Five days ago Israel cut off the water supply to the Gaza strip
The Israeli government have used banned white phosphorus against Gaza in the past, and allegedly again in the last week.
When "searching" for the three kidnapped teenagers a few weeks ago they slaughtered six Palestinians and arrested 500 (!). Now it is alleged that they knew the boys had been killed before they committed these actions in a bid to increase sympathy from the world's governments before their latest land grabbing offensive.
The UN has pleaded for a cease fire, Israel responded by saying they would be increasing their offensive.
Hamas is a democratically elected party yet is painted by many in the media as some kind of rogue terrorist organisation.
Israel has said they are only targeting buildings associated with Hamas but as a democratically elected party that broad definition leaves the legitimacy of their actions open to massive abuse as most of the population have either voted for, or supported Hamas at some point in recent years.
And anyone that questions the media's bias over this? Where has the coverage been of the thousands protesting in cities across the country, and across the world, over the last few days? Why was there rolling 24hours a day coverage of the deaths and funerals of the three Jewish teenagers (which was a tragedy that everyone should condemn) but no coverage of funerals or naming of the 1,500 children that the Israeli army have been murdering for the last decade? Is Israeli life worth more than Palestinian?
I totally agree that this recent conflict has again put Tony Blair's role as middle East "Peace Envoy" under the spotlight again and exposed it for the sham it is. While he advises the terrorist state nations governments and travels to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Israel, etc, frequently, and has financial connections to the rulers and corporate interests there, he has been to Gaza ONCE in the last seven years of his role.
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.” - Malcolm X
"When Israelis in the occupied territories now claim that they have to defend themselves, they are defending themselves in the sense that any military occupier has to defend itself against the population they are crushing. You can’t defend yourself when you’re militarily occupying someone else’s land. That’s not defense. Call it what you like, it’s not defines." - Noam Chomsky
What you can do -
Sign here to get Blair sacked from his role as peace envoy
http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/ban-ki-moon-sack-tony-blair-as-the-middle-east-peace-envoy
Boycott products that have been made in factories or land in occupied territories (Sodastream being one of the most prominent). Barcode numbers that start "729" are Israeli goods.
And the only other thing I would plead that everyone does, is forget party politics in this country, and forget religious leanings, but think of the hundreds of children and vulnerable that are under threat by Israel and don't take the reporting on the BBC and Western media at face value. Of course Hamas should stop firing missiles at Israel and they are playing their part, but having been driven from their homes and land in 1948 and 1967 and then oppressed in conditions inhumane by any definition, where Israel controls the food and medical supplies entering the massively overpopulated region and destroys buildings and homes with alarming regularity, it is hard to blame them fighting to defend their families and children and try and raise awareness around the world's governments. Prod a caged animal long enough and it will try to bite you.
The tide of opinion is turning and I hope with all my heart that in my lifetime we'll see a two-state solution with both Jews and Palestinians living peacefully alongside each other. I suspect that in 20 or 30 years time we'll look back aghast at what was going on in Gaza and the West Bank right now in the same way we look back at many other similar situations from the past and tell ourselves it couldn't happen now in the 21st century. Those that try and dismiss these concerns as anti-Semitic should hang their heads in shame.
Damn... I promised myself this morning I wasn't going to post on this thread again! I might have to post a Whose Rack for balance.
If I saw my children and my neighbours children being blown apart by indiscriminate and constant bombing then I too, with nothing to lose any more, would go out and fight for the rights of my people.
Suggesting they "choose" martyrdom is one of the most offensive things I think I've read on here. Try putting yourself in their shoes and see what you think you'd do. Shrug your shoulders and get on with life? And exactly how are they martyring themselves anyway? They can't leave Gaza or the West Bank, they can't fish in their own waters, they can't even go and see their families that live beyond checkpoints that the Israelis control. Just what are they supposed to do, genuinely? Who is being a martyr exactly? The four year old terrorists that Israel have been bravely slaughtering over the last few days?
But what about the 10,000 plus casualties in South Sudan this year?
950 Boku Harum militants dies in Nigerian captivity last year. Imagine the outrage if that had been Isreal - but how many of us had even heard of that.
More than 5,000 have died in internal wars in north-west Pakistan this year so far. At least 50 times as many Somalians have been killed in their civil war since 1991 as Palestinians since 1948.
The list could go on and on. But the Israeli actions take almost all of teh attention and capaigning the exclusion of all but the very worst.
It must be hell for ordinary citizens of Gaza who just wish for a normal life - working to raise a family in peace to be subject to death and destruction every few years.
One of my colleagues had his wife and children in Gaza, constantly in fear of their life. Jordan has traditionally been a very tolerant nation, with Jews, Christians and Muslims able to worship freely in synagogues, churches and mosques next to each other in their streets. Interestingly, their beef is not with Jews at all - it's with Zionists and a Western media they perceive as being pro-Israel regardless of what they do. My friends have seen things no-one should see.
Hamas are what they are, but the Israelis are as bad as the terrorists if not worse. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the 1948 establishment of the state of Israel - and I have some sympathy with why that location is important - if Israel desisted from trying to steal land then a ceasefire would be relatively straightforward to maintain. 1948 was a disaster for the region.
Being treated as Europeans can't help their long term assimilation in the region.
Surprise it wasn't published or responded to.