Israel are surrounded by countries who hate them and want them destroyed. Those same countries do very little for the Palestinians. As for the sad deaths of civilians just have a think about the number of civilians killed in our military involvements.
israel isn't real, its a zionist myth, a failed state plonked there by wrong headed europeans who fearful of those nasty arabs, wanted a friendly buffer. it was not viable then, and it is not viable now without explicit and implicit support from the u.s., fundamental christians and europe, and cannot be sustained without systemic oppression. no wonder the zionists are despised by all around them. imagine cornwall being annexed by ancestors of the ancient celts, and the cornish being given newquay, looe and bodmin, but all movement in and out of those towns reduced to a standstill... at the same time, parts of bodmin, looe and newquay are gradually taken over by "settlers" from the invading oppressor. might, just might the cornish get a little agitated, and use any tools at their disposal in rising up against such nonsense!?!?
Israel are surrounded by countries who hate them and want them destroyed. Those same countries do very little for the Palestinians. As for the sad deaths of civilians just have a think about the number of civilians killed in our military involvements.
...............imagine cornwall being annexed by ancestors of the ancient celts, and the cornish being given newquay, looe and bodmin, but all movement in and out of those towns reduced to a standstill... at the same time, parts of bodmin, looe and newquay are gradually taken over by "settlers" from the invading oppressor. might, just might the cornish get a little agitated, and use any tools at their disposal in rising up against such nonsense!?!?
All sounds a bit like the situation in Northern Ireland before the civil rights movement in the 60s.
Israel are surrounded by countries who hate them and want them destroyed. Those same countries do very little for the Palestinians. As for the sad deaths of civilians just have a think about the number of civilians killed in our military involvements.
The reverse is also true, Palestine is surrounded by a country that wants it destroyed and wiped off the face of the map.
As for the countries surrounding Israel, these have faced massive consequences in the years since Israel was created, not least the fact that THEY have had to deal with millions of dispossessed Palestinian refugees flocking to their countries for protection - so I am not sure how they "do very little for the Palestinians."
Even the Jordanians - which has long been at peace with Israel and came so close to brokering a deal between Israel and Palestine in the late 1990s - are being pushed to their wits end by the Israeli aggression.
Ooh, more politics on CL. When someone suggested this about Syria about 6 months ago on CL and I said that "If Syria are to be banned then so should Israel" I nearly got my head chewed off and was called a "Self hating Jew" (I'm a Solipsist. This assumption was made because I read Israeli news). Godstone, that's a long debunked argument that those countries surrounding Israel hate Israel and want them destroyed. Saudi, Jordan, Egypt are armed with billions upon billions worth of UK, European and US weaponry their officers trained at Sandhurst. Turkey, a NATO ally doesn't fit the bill either. However Syria, Lebannon and the Palestinians do have a legitimate beef as they all have land illegally occupied by Israel. And yes you get a lot of reporting of arabs threatening Israel but if you look at wider international media (www.newsnow.co.uk) you get to hear many many Israelis spouting as bad if not worse. So it doesn't wash I'm afraid buddy.
Leaving the politics aside, if Israel were banned from world sporting events, would anyone notice?
most importantly, THEY would.
Pini Zahavi certainly wouldn't like it.
footie agents, (zionist or otherwise), they are good for some young/insecure players, but overall, i would say, parasites on the current less than beautiful game...
Way too complicated a situation to take sides. There is no black and white, good/bad divide.
Feel sorry for the civilians in both areas that have grown up and live in constant fear due to the actions of governments from generations before them.
Way too complicated a situation to take sides. There is no black and white, good/bad divide.
Feel sorry for the civilians in both areas that have grown up and live in constant fear due to the actions of governments from generations before them.
you sound as well-meaning as many of the uninformed observers on this issue, which in reality selr is the oh so one-sided, tedious, lazy, superficial view of timid government, media, business and many ngo's, and that just means the zionist jackboot will remain on the collective neck of the palestinians 24/7...soooo very sad and disheartening, i swear almost everyone who trots out the "both sides are as bad..." soundbite would soon rise up and fight in their currently cozy neighborhoods, if they had to face just one year of what has rained down on this unfortunate, but indomitable people - and they have withstood over 65 years of systemic zionist attack at every level of life. sighhhhh....
I was utterly shaken to the core when I visited Bethlehem. I walked round the church and viewed the hills from where the Christmas carol shepherds were supposed to have watched their flocks. All I could see was endless ugly concrete blocks of new houses being hastily built to house the next wave of East European Jews. I knew that the Israelis were robbing the Palestinians of everything , but seeing it for myself was altogether different and horribly shocking. I have no answers but, against my normal views, I would support a ban.
They suffer from terrorism more than most countries but their land grabbing is relentless and their responses against civilian population is unforgivable. Any political action is vetoed by USA who arm them. Time to sidestep the Yanks. Seeing how we were instrumental in setting up the Zionist state, perhaps up to us to crank up some pressure for them to act responsibly.
Seeing As their number one sport is ' bomb tennis ' I'll let you fly out there and tell them they can't have their ball back.
There was a two state solution available in 1948 but the surrounding Arab states and the Palestinians rejected it leading the the 48 Arab-Israeli war.
Many moderate Israelis and Palestinians would accept a two state solution but neither Hamas or the Fundamentalist Israelis want this.
Israel's continuing building in the West Bank and its gross over reaction to any assault only makes the situation worse but when you have had to fight three wars (48, 67 and 74) just to survive and have a number of hostile states around you who refuses to accept your right to even exist then it is easy for the politicians and military to make it seem that this blood bath is essential.
Israel has managed to find ways to co-exist with some of its neighbours, Egypt being the prime example.
The same can be done in with the Palestinian state although there is already a divide between the Hamas run Gaza Strip and the Fatah run West Bank despite the unity government formed in June
I saw a picture today of a Palestinian man holding his daughter (aged around 2-3). She had half of her head literally blown off.
That is the true cost of the revenge that so many Israelis seek.
An important thing to remember is that amongst Israelis there is little appetite for reconciliation, the bloodlust of that nation is completely unreal. Listen to any radio station like LBC when they do a phone in on this issue, the one sided closed mindedness of the Israelis (and a lot of British jews) is unreal. The idea that they are some kind of oppressed victims of Western Media (purely, as far as I can see based on the fact that the media actually reports the numbers of dead on each side) is absolutely laughable.
“you sound as well-meaning as many of the uninformed observers on this issue…”
Breathtaking patronizing comment.
Some people need a reality check. Looking at historical facts alongside both sides propaganda would lead most normal thinking people to the conclusion that there are various shades of good and bad on both sides, and they take turns in being the best and the worst at both. Each side has genuine grievances and only compromises, which are unlikely to emerge, will solve the problem. Supporting one side’s propaganda that suits your own prejudices towards Jews/Arabs/US/UN/Blair/UK Foreign Policy/Muslims helps no one and solves nothing, and doesn’t alter the facts, no matter how loud you shout.
“you sound as well-meaning as many of the uninformed observers on this issue…”
Breathtaking patronizing comment.
Some people need a reality check. Looking at historical facts alongside both sides propaganda would lead most normal thinking people to the conclusion that there are various shades of good and bad on both sides, and they take turns in being the best and the worst at both. Each side has genuine grievances and only compromises, which are unlikely to emerge, will solve the problem. Supporting one side’s propaganda that suits your own prejudices towards Jews/Arabs/US/UN/Blair/UK Foreign Policy/Muslims helps no one and solves nothing, and doesn’t alter the facts, no matter how loud you shout.
Implying they're both as bad as each other and suggesting that a "side" is chosen based on an individual's prejudice against a race or religion... predictable responses from Zionist apologists.
I do find it hard to understand how anyone who has knowledge of the historic situation over there can suggest anything other than Israel are overreacting and in breach of numerous international laws.
Incidentally, Hamas firing missiles at Israel is arguably allowed under international law as you're allowed to defend yourself when under illegal occupation.
Even if you have sympathy with Israel, when the US and UK start saying they're pushing things too far then it's surely evidence that they have overstepped the mark even for them this time!
A Security Council resolution in 2000 “Calls upon Israel, the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by its legal obligations and its responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in a Time of War of 12 August 1949;...”
Their indiscriminate bombing of civilians (I too have seen too many photos of dead babies and toddlers in the last few days) means that if you are defending the Israeli response then you're defending War Criminals.
I don't think however that dismissing Israel as a recognised entity like ShootersHill2Tropics is doing is healthy at all to the argument. The solution for eventual peace in the region will not involve the dissolution of Israel and refusing to acknowledge it's existence in fear of legitimising it is an argument that only the most extreme within Hamas etc would support. The aggressive anti-Israel stance does more harm to the argument than good.
Ultimately extremists on both sides need to step back and a peaceful two state compromise eventually met at some point in the hopefully not too distant future. The issue that I and many have is that one set of extremists is backed by one of the most powerful armies in the world while the other has home made "rockets" that are crude in comparison.
Refusing to acknowledge Israel though is just an extreme view that distracts from and devalues the main argument.
Israel has managed to find ways to co-exist with some of its neighbours, Egypt being the prime example.
I doubt this would have been possible had Israel controlled Egypts borders and the flow of medical supplies and food in and out of the country, while bulldozing Egyptian homes and places of worship to construct Israeli settlements.
Finding a way to "co-exist" with neighbours like Egypt but not the Palestinians is simply not comparable.
The one thing I hate more than anything about this argument is how the second you say that Israel are over reacting you can be dismissed as having "an anti Jewish prejudice" yet if you look at the current climate in the world, especially the UK, I think you will find there is a tad more anti Muslim sentiment than there is anti Jewish.
It annoys me, and is a symptom of the way that a lot of zionists play the media, that to question Israel and any of it actions somehow makes you an anti semite, and once you are accused of that, you are only a stone throw away from being compared to the biggest anti semites of them all, and then you are reminded why the Israeli's get away with the things they do today.
Also, criticising zionism will often be done by the same people that are convinced that Jews control the world through the moon, or somehow wherever you look the Jews control absolutely everything. There is a huge difference between criticism of Israel and believing the world has signed up to some zionist conspiracy.
There is a huge difference between criticism of Israel and believing the world has signed up to some zionist conspiracy.
I agree but that doesn't stop certain posters on this thread (not you) denying that Isreal is even a real state or has right to exist while that same person on another thread cracks a so called joke using a derogatory slur word for jews (and I don't mean "yid").
Not sure about all of the ins and outs of it, but the documentary 5 broken cameras is worth a watch. I'd say it would be impossible to look at it without being disgusted by Israeli conduct, but some will probably manage to convince themselves.
Funny how people dismiss Hamas firing rockets indescrimately into Israel, majority of which have been shot down, but condemn Israel for retaliating.
Whether to you agree with the politics of either side, Israel has to protect itself with maximum force as to deter others.
And if you think an eventual compromise will solve the Middle East problems you are wrong, it will open up new conflicts.
You're hearing what you want to hear. I'm not dismissing Hamas firing rockets into Israel, and I think they should stop as it hinders the peace process. (even though it can be argued as a displaced nation they are simply fighting back against their aggressors. Hundreds of thousands of those living in Gaza used to live, or have families who lived, in arab towns that simply don't exist any more as Israel drove them from the land into the territories.)
What I, and many, are saying, is that it is a massively disproportionate response by Israel against the missile attacks. The UN today have said that they believe 75% of the deaths in Gaza over the last week are civilians.
Oh. And the Hamas rockets still have a death toll of nil.
So I don't agree that Israel has a right to slaughter hundreds and injure thousands, many of whom are children, because of the Hamas missiles.
To reiterate though - That DOESN'T mean that I or many others are "dismissing" the fact Hamas are firing missiles in the first place.
You and others with the same opinion are now taking a harder line against the Palestinians than the likes of John Kerry and Willie Hague. That must surely suggest that maybe you need to re-evaluate your understanding of the situation and not just swallow what the BBC reports...?
Funny how people dismiss Hamas firing rockets indescrimately into Israel, majority of which have been shot down, but condemn Israel for retaliating.
Whether to you agree with the politics of either side, Israel has to protect itself with maximum force as to deter others.
And if you think an eventual compromise will solve the Middle East problems you are wrong, it will open up new conflicts.
Sorry, but as others have pointed out other countries have suffered from domestic terrorism withou resorting to this level of retaliation, it's totally over the top.
When the IRA bombed London did we blow the shit out of Dublin in response? Of course not, that would have made us no better than them.
When ETA bombed Madrid did the Spanish army bomb the shit out of the Basque Country?
All this serves to do is create the next generation of Hamas fighters nothing more.
I saw a picture today of a Palestinian man holding his daughter (aged around 2-3). She had half of her head literally blown off.
That is the true cost of the revenge that so many Israelis seek.
An important thing to remember is that amongst Israelis there is little appetite for reconciliation, the bloodlust of that nation is completely unreal. Listen to any radio station like LBC when they do a phone in on this issue, the one sided closed mindedness of the Israelis (and a lot of British jews) is unreal. The idea that they are some kind of oppressed victims of Western Media (purely, as far as I can see based on the fact that the media actually reports the numbers of dead on each side) is absolutely laughable.
You couldn't be more wrong
"Notwithstanding all the events in recent years, a majority of the Jewish public also views the Palestinians' demand for an independent state as justified - 62 percent (compared to 34.5 percent who see it as unjustified). As in the past, there is also a majority - 58 percent - that is sure or thinks Israel can permit the establishment of an independent Palestinian state (32 percent think or are sure it cannot, and the rest do not know)."
would a high Israeli death toll justify their actions better? Perhaps the sight of hundreds of dead Israeli children would make better news.
Again being disingenuous to try and belittle the argument. Clearly I'm saying that the Israelis are over reacting, not that I wish the Israeli death toll was higher or that in some way that would make everything alright.
I saw a picture today of a Palestinian man holding his daughter (aged around 2-3). She had half of her head literally blown off.
That is the true cost of the revenge that so many Israelis seek.
An important thing to remember is that amongst Israelis there is little appetite for reconciliation, the bloodlust of that nation is completely unreal. Listen to any radio station like LBC when they do a phone in on this issue, the one sided closed mindedness of the Israelis (and a lot of British jews) is unreal. The idea that they are some kind of oppressed victims of Western Media (purely, as far as I can see based on the fact that the media actually reports the numbers of dead on each side) is absolutely laughable.
You couldn't be more wrong
"Notwithstanding all the events in recent years, a majority of the Jewish public also views the Palestinians' demand for an independent state as justified - 62 percent (compared to 34.5 percent who see it as unjustified). As in the past, there is also a majority - 58 percent - that is sure or thinks Israel can permit the establishment of an independent Palestinian state (32 percent think or are sure it cannot, and the rest do not know)."
But the reason their death toll is non existant is because of the excellent shield system not because the intent is not there to kill as many Israelis as possible.
I am not pro Israel I find their reaction abhorrent but their response is understandable giving their mindset and history of the region
Ironically, the arabs are viewed as sub human by many israelis it would seem.
What a huge and unjustified leap to make.
Racism and discrimination is wrong, IMO, and it is just a wrong if it a Jewish Isreali or an Muslim Palestinian. (or any other ethnic group for that). The view expressed in those polls of SOME Israelis are abhorrent to me but they are not saying what you are claiming.
You are putting words and views in the mouths of people that aren't backed up by the facts. In doing so you undermine many of the good and valid points you are making elsewhere.
But the reason their death toll is non existant is because of the excellent shield system not because the intent is not there to kill as many Israelis as possible.
I am not pro Israel I find their reaction abhorrent but their response is understandable giving their mindset and history of the region
A response is understandable and in some case fully justifiable but too often it is a gross over reaction far out of proportion with the original offence.
Comments
As for the countries surrounding Israel, these have faced massive consequences in the years since Israel was created, not least the fact that THEY have had to deal with millions of dispossessed Palestinian refugees flocking to their countries for protection - so I am not sure how they "do very little for the Palestinians."
Even the Jordanians - which has long been at peace with Israel and came so close to brokering a deal between Israel and Palestine in the late 1990s - are being pushed to their wits end by the Israeli aggression.
Godstone, that's a long debunked argument that those countries surrounding Israel hate Israel and want them destroyed. Saudi, Jordan, Egypt are armed with billions upon billions worth of UK, European and US weaponry their officers trained at Sandhurst. Turkey, a NATO ally doesn't fit the bill either. However Syria, Lebannon and the Palestinians do have a legitimate beef as they all have land illegally occupied by Israel. And yes you get a lot of reporting of arabs threatening Israel but if you look at wider international media (www.newsnow.co.uk) you get to hear many many Israelis spouting as bad if not worse.
So it doesn't wash I'm afraid buddy.
Feel sorry for the civilians in both areas that have grown up and live in constant fear due to the actions of governments from generations before them.
All I could see was endless ugly concrete blocks of new houses being hastily built to house the next wave of East European Jews.
I knew that the Israelis were robbing the Palestinians of everything , but seeing it for myself was altogether different and horribly shocking.
I have no answers but, against my normal views, I would support a ban.
Problem is, that there isn't an answer.
So the relentless killing goes on on all sides
Many moderate Israelis and Palestinians would accept a two state solution but neither Hamas or the Fundamentalist Israelis want this.
Israel's continuing building in the West Bank and its gross over reaction to any assault only makes the situation worse but when you have had to fight three wars (48, 67 and 74) just to survive and have a number of hostile states around you who refuses to accept your right to even exist then it is easy for the politicians and military to make it seem that this blood bath is essential.
Israel has managed to find ways to co-exist with some of its neighbours, Egypt being the prime example.
The same can be done in with the Palestinian state although there is already a divide between the Hamas run Gaza Strip and the Fatah run West Bank despite the unity government formed in June
That is the true cost of the revenge that so many Israelis seek.
An important thing to remember is that amongst Israelis there is little appetite for reconciliation, the bloodlust of that nation is completely unreal. Listen to any radio station like LBC when they do a phone in on this issue, the one sided closed mindedness of the Israelis (and a lot of British jews) is unreal. The idea that they are some kind of oppressed victims of Western Media (purely, as far as I can see based on the fact that the media actually reports the numbers of dead on each side) is absolutely laughable.
Breathtaking patronizing comment.
Some people need a reality check. Looking at historical facts alongside both sides propaganda would lead most normal thinking people to the conclusion that there are various shades of good and bad on both sides, and they take turns in being the best and the worst at both. Each side has genuine grievances and only compromises, which are unlikely to emerge, will solve the problem. Supporting one side’s propaganda that suits your own prejudices towards Jews/Arabs/US/UN/Blair/UK Foreign Policy/Muslims helps no one and solves nothing, and doesn’t alter the facts, no matter how loud you shout.
I do find it hard to understand how anyone who has knowledge of the historic situation over there can suggest anything other than Israel are overreacting and in breach of numerous international laws.
Incidentally, Hamas firing missiles at Israel is arguably allowed under international law as you're allowed to defend yourself when under illegal occupation.
Even if you have sympathy with Israel, when the US and UK start saying they're pushing things too far then it's surely evidence that they have overstepped the mark even for them this time!
A Security Council resolution in 2000 “Calls upon Israel, the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by its legal obligations and its responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in a Time of War of 12 August 1949;...”
Their indiscriminate bombing of civilians (I too have seen too many photos of dead babies and toddlers in the last few days) means that if you are defending the Israeli response then you're defending War Criminals.
Ultimately extremists on both sides need to step back and a peaceful two state compromise eventually met at some point in the hopefully not too distant future. The issue that I and many have is that one set of extremists is backed by one of the most powerful armies in the world while the other has home made "rockets" that are crude in comparison.
Refusing to acknowledge Israel though is just an extreme view that distracts from and devalues the main argument.
Finding a way to "co-exist" with neighbours like Egypt but not the Palestinians is simply not comparable.
It annoys me, and is a symptom of the way that a lot of zionists play the media, that to question Israel and any of it actions somehow makes you an anti semite, and once you are accused of that, you are only a stone throw away from being compared to the biggest anti semites of them all, and then you are reminded why the Israeli's get away with the things they do today.
Also, criticising zionism will often be done by the same people that are convinced that Jews control the world through the moon, or somehow wherever you look the Jews control absolutely everything. There is a huge difference between criticism of Israel and believing the world has signed up to some zionist conspiracy.
Whether to you agree with the politics of either side, Israel has to protect itself with maximum force as to deter others.
And if you think an eventual compromise will solve the Middle East problems you are wrong, it will open up new conflicts.
What I, and many, are saying, is that it is a massively disproportionate response by Israel against the missile attacks. The UN today have said that they believe 75% of the deaths in Gaza over the last week are civilians.
Oh. And the Hamas rockets still have a death toll of nil.
So I don't agree that Israel has a right to slaughter hundreds and injure thousands, many of whom are children, because of the Hamas missiles.
To reiterate though - That DOESN'T mean that I or many others are "dismissing" the fact Hamas are firing missiles in the first place.
You and others with the same opinion are now taking a harder line against the Palestinians than the likes of John Kerry and Willie Hague. That must surely suggest that maybe you need to re-evaluate your understanding of the situation and not just swallow what the BBC reports...?
When the IRA bombed London did we blow the shit out of Dublin in response? Of course not, that would have made us no better than them.
When ETA bombed Madrid did the Spanish army bomb the shit out of the Basque Country?
All this serves to do is create the next generation of Hamas fighters nothing more.
"Notwithstanding all the events in recent years, a majority of the Jewish public also views the Palestinians' demand for an independent state as justified - 62 percent (compared to 34.5 percent who see it as unjustified). As in the past, there is also a majority - 58 percent - that is sure or thinks Israel can permit the establishment of an independent Palestinian state (32 percent think or are sure it cannot, and the rest do not know)."
http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/just-another-forgotten-peace-summit-1.235013
But there are not.
Another Haaretz pole said that the majority would favour apartheid. Ironically, the arabs are viewed as sub human by many israelis it would seem.
I would argue that although Israel does want peace, they want it very much to be on their own terms.
I am not pro Israel I find their reaction abhorrent but their response is understandable giving their mindset and history of the region
Racism and discrimination is wrong, IMO, and it is just a wrong if it a Jewish Isreali or an Muslim Palestinian. (or any other ethnic group for that). The view expressed in those polls of SOME Israelis are abhorrent to me but they are not saying what you are claiming.
You are putting words and views in the mouths of people that aren't backed up by the facts. In doing so you undermine many of the good and valid points you are making elsewhere. A response is understandable and in some case fully justifiable but too often it is a gross over reaction far out of proportion with the original offence.