Gerald Kaufman speech in the house. Interesting aspect.
Reminds me of the first occasion I had reason to be at an anti Israel,Pro Palestine march in London. At the front of march were several Jews alongside the main organisers who greeted each other with hugs and obvious friendship and respect. Many other Jews, especially young boys were throughout the crowd. First time I learn't that there are many anti Israeli Jews. Had never even occurred to me that would be possible before then and to me it says a lot about the argument and influences my feelings on it.
I Imagine there are more anti Hamas Gazans than anti Israeli Jews.
Gerald Kaufman speech in the house. Interesting aspect.
Reminds me of the first occasion I had reason to be at an anti Israel,Pro Palestine march in London. At the front of march were several Jews alongside the main organisers who greeted each other with hugs and obvious friendship and respect. Many other Jews, especially young boys were throughout the crowd. First time I learn't that there are many anti Israeli Jews. Had never even occurred to me that would be possible before then and to me it says a lot about the argument and influences my feelings on it.
I Imagine there are more anti Hamas Gazans than anti Israeli Jews.
The conflict has been going on along similar lines long before Hamas came into the power, I should imagine that a massive majority of Palestinians do not like there land being stolen, and living in an occupied country whilst it is being bombed to bits. Any political party in Palestine would do its utmost in this desperate situation to continue the existence of its country and of its people.
The outrcry from the rest of the world is only because it's Israel 'doing the deed'. Look how many Muslims have been slaughtered by a Muslim regime in Syria recently. I know its not a numbers game but where is the outcry against what is happeningthere amongst other places?
The outrcry from the rest of the world is only because it's Israel 'doing the deed'. Look how many Muslims have been slaughtered by a Muslim regime in Syria recently. I know its not a numbers game but where is the outcry against what is happeningthere amongst other places?
I actually feel it is the opposite, if a muslim country was bombing UN safe places they would be getting ready to intervene by now.
Genuine question.... If Israel withdrew from the occupied territories tomorrow and went back to the 1968 (?) borders --and gave the Palestinians East Jerusalem -- do you honestly think Hamas wouldn't find something else to pick a fight about? Do you honestly think that its absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they are Jewish?
I get the feeling that this Gaza incursion is more than that. It's gone on for too long and the Israelis are really pushing their credibility around the World without what appears to be a care.
It wouldn't surprise me if it turned into a full scale invasion and total occupation of the strip.
If the West don't do something to prevent this, then for sure the Muslim world will.
Who knows really... Hamas has stated on numerous occasions that if things went back to the 1967 borders then there would be a truce of at least twenty years and that there would be a referendum on acknowledgement of the Israel state. But we all know governments and the difference between what they say and what they do. What is for sure, is that nothing is done, very soon, there will be no Palestine or its people left.
Watching the news now. Unbelievable. Absolutely disgusting. Israel is an insult to the memory of the Jews who died in the holocaust. I am now of the opinion that Israel does not have the right to exist in that region.
I'm not an expert and I'm not picking sides, but why do Hamas continue firing rockets into Israel and breaking ceasefires, putting their own people's lives at risk, firing rockets from Schools etc, yet its all Israels fault? I know Israel are being a lot more heavy handed but I put that down the fact Israel have the equipment and Hamas don't, and if Hamas did they would be doing the same?
As I say its a genuine question as I'm rather uneducated on the issue, and would appreciate the education.
Watching the news now. Unbelievable. Absolutely disgusting. Israel is an insult to the memory of the Jews who died in the holocaust. I am now of the opinion that Israel does not have the right to exist in that region.
I'm not an expert and I'm not picking sides, but why do Hamas continue firing rockets into Israel and breaking ceasefires, putting their own people's lives at risk, firing rockets from Schools etc, yet its all Israels fault? I know Israel are being a lot more heavy handed but I put that down the fact Israel have the equipment and Hamas don't, and if Hamas did they would be doing the same?
As I say its a genuine question as I'm rather uneducated on the issue, and would appreciate the education.
Explanation from Shrew on previous page. Keep up! Yep whatever you views are, this is very misinformed. Since the original partition by the UN in 1947 Palestine has lost about another 80per cent of this land. The continuing taking of land and building of settlements continues 24 hours a day 52 weeks a year. Destruction of land, homes and environment. See map herehttp://www.worldliteraturetoday.org/2012/may/no-ordinary-place-writers-and-writing-occupied-palestine-rima-najjar-merriman#.U8ypHVaYYdsIsrael have never been happy with the UN agreement and hence have continued to take land and stop the freedom of Palestinan people moving around and living in there own country.
Israel have now (again) destroyed the sole Palestinian power station. Can someone explain how this is striking at Hamas, or is it just a spiteful act of petty vengance by some cowardly cnuts?
seems like the cl zeitgeist is catching up with my supposedly controversial assertions from awhile ago. my only frustration is that what is happening now does not greatly differ from basic zionist policy employed 24/7 since their original ethnic cleanse/the nakba of 1948.
again i ask anyone who questions the rights of palestinians to use any method at their disposal, then what would YOU do in the face of such a long-running systemic attack on your life, land, family, people, heritage, identity food/water supply, minimal economy, and just simple right to exist????? (...and before i get the reflex reaction from the religious wrong, beyond occasional rhetoric, the majority of palestinians (and those that stand in solidarity), do not want to eradicate all believers in the jewish religion, but simply question the viability of the zionist state that can only remain and occupy this predominantly arab region with u.s. support, a disproportionate military and 24/7 systemic oppression and violence.)
This has nothing to do with religion at all - Arabs & Jews live peacefully together all over Israel.
It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that the Israelis continue to invade and occupy Palestinian land with their 'settlements' and the fact that the Israeli government has basically told Obama and Kerry - you know, the two most important people in the entire United States government - to go fuck themselves.
Anyone who wants a great read on this then go look at The Dish from Andrew Sullivan - a leading THATCHERITE intellectual - who says very astutely that it is in fact so obvious what the Israeli strategy is - the gradual takeover of as much Palestinian land as possible - that some people just cannot see it.
I'm sorry. I just switch off the second anyone says people dislike Israel because they are Jewish. I think that probably represents about 5-10% of people who dislike Israel. The remaining 90-95% dislike the massacre of civilians, by a significantly more powerful force.
I would even suggest that were a Muslim nation attacking a neighbour with this much ferosity (eg Iraq invasion of Kuwait) the global agenda would be far more on the side of the side being invaded, the fear of being called antisemitic is huge, especially in the west, something Israel and pro-Israeli supporters use to shut down a lot of debates when they begin to lose. This in my opinion cheapens the death of those in the holocaust, and is a concession thay you are right. It is a disgusting tactic. As I have said a million times before, because of the way the world is at the moment, you will find a lot of people are a lot more wary of Islam than Judaism.
I also think another reason people focus on Gaza is because compared to a lot of other civil wars/conflicts it is a lot easier to understand (although still quite difficult) the grievances that both sides have.
Someone posted a pro Israeli picture on my Facebook. It was a picture of the houses of parliament with rockets raining down on it with a few explosions put in saying "How would you feel?!" To which my answer is simple... If someone was bombing London and killing people, I'd want them all dead, which is EXACTLY why I sympathise with the Gazans. If Israel wanted to make that poster realistic, it would have been a picture of the sky with two vapour trails that meet in the middle, where the iron dome has shot down all the missiles heading for built up areas. The caption "how would you feel?!" Would probably be "bloody grateful I'm not on the other side, who's defence mechanisms amount to going to refugee camps for civilians, that get bombed anyway"
As for Hamas, I believe they are a party that has been born out of the segregation that the Palestinians have felt. They have nothing, Hamas provides a welfare state, and hospitals (when they are not being bombed). Bombing the welfare state of Palestine, schools, hospitals etc actually reduces what Hamas offers Palestinians. Do you think people vote Hama's in for war, or because it gives their kids a place to go to school, and a hospital for them when they are ill, remember, the average age of a Palestinian is just 17.
The propaganda on both sides distresses me, one because it justifies the massacre of civilians, and the other, because it shows the massacre of civilians.
I think that Israel has more to worry about from the Ebola outbreak than it does from rockets fired from Gaza. 24 Israelis have died from all rocket attacks, and no thats not the figures in this conflict, that is the sum total. I believe that Israel use Palestine as its boogy man, which enables it to control its population, the same way the Arab states used Israel when they first moved into the region.
There are extremists on both sides. Let's remember, if someone offers their unconditional support to their leaders, they will commit unspeakable acts in their name.
Several valid points Huskaris however re the provision of state services, that is classic insurgency. In effect the aim is power not the benevolent provision of services however by such provision comes support and the mandate for authority. The division of Gaza and the West Bank is not just geographical and Hamas fundamentally undermined the progress of statehood when it attacked Fatah. It is not enough to shout "self defence/ what would you do?" There has to be a plan if the largely symbolic firing of missiles is to be justified. World opinion is firmly against Israel so what next? Hamas needs to be smarter, needs to take away Israel's pretext for action as a first step. Israel will not disappear from the map so again Hamas must be smarter, it must provide an alternative solution, one that undermines Netanyahu's position. In effect Hamas and Fatah need to win Israeli minds over and undermine right wing Israeli parties. A federal Israel with three cantons and power sharing? Based on a written constitution and bill of rights? Undermines US zionist opposition in the eyes of US electorate.
Several valid points Huskaris however re the provision of state services, that is classic insurgency. In effect the aim is power not the benevolent provision of services however by such provision comes support and the mandate for authority. The division of Gaza and the West Bank is not just geographical and Hamas fundamentally undermined the progress of statehood when it attacked Fatah. It is not enough to shout "self defence/ what would you do?" There has to be a plan if the largely symbolic firing of missiles is to be justified. World opinion is firmly against Israel so what next? Hamas needs to be smarter, needs to take away Israel's pretext for action as a first step. Israel will not disappear from the map so again Hamas must be smarter, it must provide an alternative solution, one that undermines Netanyahu's position. In effect Hamas and Fatah need to win Israeli minds over and undermine right wing Israeli parties. A federal Israel with three cantons and power sharing? Based on a written constitution and bill of rights? Undermines US zionist opposition in the eyes of US electorate.
You also raise many valid points! Do you think that Hamas can get through to Israeli citizens though? I just don't see it happening to be honest. I also believe that Hamas are right to insist on an end to the blockade. This is what Gazans want, they are currently living in an open prison where they have no real freedom. International pressure will be what gets them their freedom in my opinion, and it will be against the will of Israelis. Israel is quickly turning into an ultra right wing state. I hate drawing the parralels because it is exceptionally lazy but the campaigns are very similar to that of Nazi Germany (pre death camps etc) and very similar to apartheid South Africa.
The people who suffer are people who had nothing to do with the atrocities that were commuted against the Jews in the 20th century and before, but they are condemned to suffer for it.
I read this elsewhere - anyone know if it's true or not:
In 2005, Israel ended the occupation in Gaza. It pulled out every last Israeli soldier. It dismantled every last settlement. Many Israeli settlers who refused to leave wereforcefully evicted from their homes, kicking and screaming.
This was a unilateral move by Israel, part of a disengagement plan intended to reduce friction between Israelis and Palestinians. It wasn't perfect -- Israel was still to control Gaza's borders, coastline, and airspace -- but considering the history of the region, it was a pretty significant first step.
After the evacuation, Israel opened up border crossings to facilitate commerce. The Palestinians were also given 3,000 greenhouses which had already been producing fruit and flowers for export for many years.
But Hamas chose not to invest in schools, trade, or infrastructure. Instead, it built anextensive network of tunnels to house thousands upon thousands of rockets and weapons, including newer, sophisticated ones from Iran and Syria. All the greenhouses were destroyed.
Hamas did not build any bomb shelters for its people. It did, however, build a few for its leaders to hide out in during airstrikes. Civilians are not given access to these shelters for precisely the same reason Hamas tells them to stay home when the bombs come.
Gaza was given a great opportunity in 2005 that Hamas squandered by transforming it into an anti-Israel weapons store instead of a thriving Palestinian state that, with time, may have served as a model for the future of the West Bank as well. If Fatah needed yet another reason to abhor Hamas, here it was.
Stop the missiles, re-engage with Fatah, protest peacefully at the Egyptian blockade for humanitarian aid, take the press down Egypt/ Gaza tunnels before detonating them under the lenses of the world's media, call for a new election in the Palestinian Authority, ask repeatedly to address the Knesset, Deif should publicly stand down, Meshaal should be in Paris, London, Berlin, Rio anywhere but sitting giving pointless interviews in Qatar
The outrcry from the rest of the world is only because it's Israel 'doing the deed'. Look how many Muslims have been slaughtered by a Muslim regime in Syria recently. I know its not a numbers game but where is the outcry against what is happeningthere amongst other places?
An interesting question. I wonder if the difference is because, on the one hand, Israel holds itself out as being a civilised, modern, western facing, democracy while on the other committing barbaric acts as if it was some sort of medieval feudal war lord?
It's noteworthy that we've just had the tenth anniversary of the ICJ ruling that the Israeli apartheid wall was illegal and should be removed. Israel, of course takes no notice.
I read this elsewhere - anyone know if it's true or not:
It dismantled every last settlement.
In the strip maybe, but there were only 20-odd of them! But in the occupied Palestinian territories, which the legitimate Government of Gaza and representative of the Palestinian people understandably wants back, there are over 350,000 (and rising) Israelis occupying homes and farms in the illegal settlements on land belonging to others. So, it's not going to happen is it?
Personally, I never knowingly buy anything made in this terrorist state and delight in haranguing supermarket managers when I see Israeli produce on the shelves. I would urge others to do likewise.
Can anyone explain to me why Israel play their WC qualifiers in the UEFA groups?
It's a bit like Boca juniors wanting to join the premier league....................
you ask a key question tango that directly relates to why a zionist state is even in that part of the arab world - because the europeans were/are fearful of those they do not properly acknowledge or understand - the arab scourge as they see it, and the zionist state peopled by a pale beige looking chappie, more seemingly euro in lifestyle, acts as a buffer against the fear of "the other". diplomats from the mid-1940's testify to this, and the dynamic has continued...even to the point where they are in uefa, while all the countries that surround them are in the asian f.a.
What Bollocks SH2T don't let your prejudiced views get in the way of the truth.
Until 1972, Israel was a fully paid-up member of the AFC, qualifying for the 1970 World Cup. They won the 1964 Asian Cup and came third when the competition was next held in Iran, losing to the hosts 2-1. It might sound weird now but Iran also beat Israel in Tehran at the 1974 Asian Games. But the same tournament embodied Israel's problem. Kuwait - and every other Arab state - refused to play Israel and the AFC cast the Jewish state into the wilderness.
The Israel national team lived a nomadic existence, attempting to qualify for tournaments via various other associations, including Oceania, before Uefa found them a home in 1994.
What Bollocks SH2T don't let your prejudiced views get in the way of the truth.
Until 1972, Israel was a fully paid-up member of the AFC, qualifying for the 1970 World Cup. They won the 1964 Asian Cup and came third when the competition was next held in Iran, losing to the hosts 2-1. It might sound weird now but Iran also beat Israel in Tehran at the 1974 Asian Games. But the same tournament embodied Israel's problem. Kuwait - and every other Arab state - refused to play Israel and the AFC cast the Jewish state into the wilderness.
The Israel national team lived a nomadic existence, attempting to qualify for tournaments via various other associations, including Oceania, before Uefa found them a home in 1994.
This was copied from an earlier guardian article.
...and the fairies painlessly gifted them them the palestinian land? what a romantic one dimensional footie tale atu...yer know, uefa could have told them to remain where they belong - in the sporting wilderness, instead they embraced the genocidal bloodlusters
What Bollocks SH2T don't let your prejudiced views get in the way of the truth.
Until 1972, Israel was a fully paid-up member of the AFC, qualifying for the 1970 World Cup. They won the 1964 Asian Cup and came third when the competition was next held in Iran, losing to the hosts 2-1. It might sound weird now but Iran also beat Israel in Tehran at the 1974 Asian Games. But the same tournament embodied Israel's problem. Kuwait - and every other Arab state - refused to play Israel and the AFC cast the Jewish state into the wilderness.
The Israel national team lived a nomadic existence, attempting to qualify for tournaments via various other associations, including Oceania, before Uefa found them a home in 1994.
This was copied from an earlier guardian article.
...and the fairies painlessly gifted them them the palestinian land? what a romantic one dimensional footie tale atu...yer know, uefa could have told them to remain where they belong - in the sporting wilderness, instead they embraced the genocidal bloodlusters
Seriously get over yourself, stop using this to get your point of view across. We all know it, most agree with it. I pointed out the reason behind them playing in Uefa, nothing to do with the current conflict or stealing land.
You chose not to answer the question that Tango posed
All I know about Israel and Palestine is what I have learned from students I have taught, and what I have seen on the news since the late 70s/80s, where it has been Israel doing most of the aggression and driving an indigenous people off their land. I've read the history books and got an A in A-Level and GCSE history where we did a lot of work on Germany and WW Two. Awful as that was, it can't continue to be an excuse for letting Israel away with whatever they like. One positive thing about kicking them out of European football would be that they would have to work with their Arab neighbours if they wanted to play football. That way they might start to see each other as human beings. I've known a few Israelis through teaching international students, usually young, been in the army, intelligent, and good company until you mention the Palestinians. Then there's a change, and a total paranoia (and with good reason where Hamas is concerned - but you're not punishing Hamas by murdering babies). One former acquaintance never spoke to me again after I said that I had Palestinian students in my class. In fact she said directly 'why would you teach them?' She then went on to describe them as more or less breeding like rabbits and being brainwashed psychos from they're barely out of nappies. I grew up in Ireland and only ever saw that level of hatred in a few places in the poorest parts of big towns and cities, never coming from educated middle class young people. It's that kind of dehumanising that makes it easy for them to bomb the Gaza Strip and basically do the Palestinians what they fear might happen to them one day - being driven into the sea and slaughtered. I had a similar experience to a far lesser extent when an Israeli woman joined a class of Saudis and other Arabs - they just stared at her as if she was from another planet and she left because they made her feel uncomfortable. Both sides need to start seeing the other as human and come up with a solution that will let them live in peace, not just now, but several generations into the future. If it was possible in Northern Ireland and South Africa it's possible there. Deep down both sides want this, and they need it. Might be a lot more killing before it happens though, and one way of stopping that killing is to show Israel that we care enough to take action, but that we also care enough to say that what Hamas is doing is also wrong, and they can't go back to before the 1940s because things have changed. Anyway it's dinner time. That's my rant over.
Comments
Look how many Muslims have been slaughtered by a Muslim regime in Syria recently. I know its not a numbers game but where is the outcry against what is happeningthere amongst other places?
It wouldn't surprise me if it turned into a full scale invasion and total occupation of the strip.
If the West don't do something to prevent this, then for sure the Muslim world will.
Hamas has stated on numerous occasions that if things went back to the 1967 borders then there would be a truce of at least twenty years and that there would be a referendum on acknowledgement of the Israel state.
But we all know governments and the difference between what they say and what they do.
What is for sure, is that nothing is done, very soon, there will be no Palestine or its people left.
As I say its a genuine question as I'm rather uneducated on the issue, and would appreciate the education.
Yep whatever you views are, this is very misinformed. Since the original partition by the UN in 1947 Palestine has lost about another 80per cent of this land. The continuing taking of land and building of settlements continues 24 hours a day 52 weeks a year. Destruction of land, homes and environment. See map herehttp://www.worldliteraturetoday.org/2012/may/no-ordinary-place-writers-and-writing-occupied-palestine-rima-najjar-merriman#.U8ypHVaYYdsIsrael have never been happy with the UN agreement and hence have continued to take land and stop the freedom of Palestinan people moving around and living in there own country.
again i ask anyone who questions the rights of palestinians to use any method at their disposal, then what would YOU do in the face of such a long-running systemic attack on your life, land, family, people, heritage, identity food/water supply, minimal economy, and just simple right to exist????? (...and before i get the reflex reaction from the religious wrong, beyond occasional rhetoric, the majority of palestinians (and those that stand in solidarity), do not want to eradicate all believers in the jewish religion, but simply question the viability of the zionist state that can only remain and occupy this predominantly arab region with u.s. support, a disproportionate military and 24/7 systemic oppression and violence.)
It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that the Israelis continue to invade and occupy Palestinian land with their 'settlements' and the fact that the Israeli government has basically told Obama and Kerry - you know, the two most important people in the entire United States government - to go fuck themselves.
Anyone who wants a great read on this then go look at The Dish from Andrew Sullivan - a leading THATCHERITE intellectual - who says very astutely that it is in fact so obvious what the Israeli strategy is - the gradual takeover of as much Palestinian land as possible - that some people just cannot see it.
http://news.yahoo.com/bolivia-declares-israel-terrorist-state-184920411.html
I would even suggest that were a Muslim nation attacking a neighbour with this much ferosity (eg Iraq invasion of Kuwait) the global agenda would be far more on the side of the side being invaded, the fear of being called antisemitic is huge, especially in the west, something Israel and pro-Israeli supporters use to shut down a lot of debates when they begin to lose. This in my opinion cheapens the death of those in the holocaust, and is a concession thay you are right. It is a disgusting tactic. As I have said a million times before, because of the way the world is at the moment, you will find a lot of people are a lot more wary of Islam than Judaism.
I also think another reason people focus on Gaza is because compared to a lot of other civil wars/conflicts it is a lot easier to understand (although still quite difficult) the grievances that both sides have.
Someone posted a pro Israeli picture on my Facebook. It was a picture of the houses of parliament with rockets raining down on it with a few explosions put in saying "How would you feel?!" To which my answer is simple... If someone was bombing London and killing people, I'd want them all dead, which is EXACTLY why I sympathise with the Gazans. If Israel wanted to make that poster realistic, it would have been a picture of the sky with two vapour trails that meet in the middle, where the iron dome has shot down all the missiles heading for built up areas. The caption "how would you feel?!" Would probably be "bloody grateful I'm not on the other side, who's defence mechanisms amount to going to refugee camps for civilians, that get bombed anyway"
As for Hamas, I believe they are a party that has been born out of the segregation that the Palestinians have felt. They have nothing, Hamas provides a welfare state, and hospitals (when they are not being bombed). Bombing the welfare state of Palestine, schools, hospitals etc actually reduces what Hamas offers Palestinians. Do you think people vote Hama's in for war, or because it gives their kids a place to go to school, and a hospital for them when they are ill, remember, the average age of a Palestinian is just 17.
The propaganda on both sides distresses me, one because it justifies the massacre of civilians, and the other, because it shows the massacre of civilians.
I think that Israel has more to worry about from the Ebola outbreak than it does from rockets fired from Gaza. 24 Israelis have died from all rocket attacks, and no thats not the figures in this conflict, that is the sum total. I believe that Israel use Palestine as its boogy man, which enables it to control its population, the same way the Arab states used Israel when they first moved into the region.
There are extremists on both sides. Let's remember, if someone offers their unconditional support to their leaders, they will commit unspeakable acts in their name.
It is not enough to shout "self defence/ what would you do?" There has to be a plan if the largely symbolic firing of missiles is to be justified. World opinion is firmly against Israel so what next? Hamas needs to be smarter, needs to take away Israel's pretext for action as a first step.
Israel will not disappear from the map so again Hamas must be smarter, it must provide an alternative solution, one that undermines Netanyahu's position. In effect Hamas and Fatah need to win Israeli minds over and undermine right wing Israeli parties.
A federal Israel with three cantons and power sharing? Based on a written constitution and bill of rights? Undermines US zionist opposition in the eyes of US electorate.
The people who suffer are people who had nothing to do with the atrocities that were commuted against the Jews in the 20th century and before, but they are condemned to suffer for it.
In 2005, Israel ended the occupation in Gaza. It pulled out every last Israeli soldier. It dismantled every last settlement. Many Israeli settlers who refused to leave wereforcefully evicted from their homes, kicking and screaming.
This was a unilateral move by Israel, part of a disengagement plan intended to reduce friction between Israelis and Palestinians. It wasn't perfect -- Israel was still to control Gaza's borders, coastline, and airspace -- but considering the history of the region, it was a pretty significant first step.
After the evacuation, Israel opened up border crossings to facilitate commerce. The Palestinians were also given 3,000 greenhouses which had already been producing fruit and flowers for export for many years.
But Hamas chose not to invest in schools, trade, or infrastructure. Instead, it built anextensive network of tunnels to house thousands upon thousands of rockets and weapons, including newer, sophisticated ones from Iran and Syria. All the greenhouses were destroyed.
Hamas did not build any bomb shelters for its people. It did, however, build a few for its leaders to hide out in during airstrikes. Civilians are not given access to these shelters for precisely the same reason Hamas tells them to stay home when the bombs come.
Gaza was given a great opportunity in 2005 that Hamas squandered by transforming it into an anti-Israel weapons store instead of a thriving Palestinian state that, with time, may have served as a model for the future of the West Bank as well. If Fatah needed yet another reason to abhor Hamas, here it was.
It's noteworthy that we've just had the tenth anniversary of the ICJ ruling that the Israeli apartheid wall was illegal and should be removed. Israel, of course takes no notice. In the strip maybe, but there were only 20-odd of them! But in the occupied Palestinian territories, which the legitimate Government of Gaza and representative of the Palestinian people understandably wants back, there are over 350,000 (and rising) Israelis occupying homes and farms in the illegal settlements on land belonging to others. So, it's not going to happen is it?
Meanwhile Belgium, bless its cotton socks, wants clearer labelling of Israeli produce. theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/belgium-clear-labelling-goods-israeli-settlements
Personally, I never knowingly buy anything made in this terrorist state and delight in haranguing supermarket managers when I see Israeli produce on the shelves. I would urge others to do likewise.
It's a bit like Boca juniors wanting to join the premier league....................
Until 1972, Israel was a fully paid-up member of the AFC, qualifying for the 1970 World Cup. They won the 1964 Asian Cup and came third when the competition was next held in Iran, losing to the hosts 2-1. It might sound weird now but Iran also beat Israel in Tehran at the 1974 Asian Games. But the same tournament embodied Israel's problem. Kuwait - and every other Arab state - refused to play Israel and the AFC cast the Jewish state into the wilderness.
The Israel national team lived a nomadic existence, attempting to qualify for tournaments via various other associations, including Oceania, before Uefa found them a home in 1994.
This was copied from an earlier guardian article.
You chose not to answer the question that Tango posed
I've read the history books and got an A in A-Level and GCSE history where we did a lot of work on Germany and WW Two. Awful as that was, it can't continue to be an excuse for letting Israel away with whatever they like.
One positive thing about kicking them out of European football would be that they would have to work with their Arab neighbours if they wanted to play football. That way they might start to see each other as human beings. I've known a few Israelis through teaching international students, usually young, been in the army, intelligent, and good company until you mention the Palestinians. Then there's a change, and a total paranoia (and with good reason where Hamas is concerned - but you're not punishing Hamas by murdering babies).
One former acquaintance never spoke to me again after I said that I had Palestinian students in my class. In fact she said directly 'why would you teach them?' She then went on to describe them as more or less breeding like rabbits and being brainwashed psychos from they're barely out of nappies.
I grew up in Ireland and only ever saw that level of hatred in a few places in the poorest parts of big towns and cities, never coming from educated middle class young people.
It's that kind of dehumanising that makes it easy for them to bomb the Gaza Strip and basically do the Palestinians what they fear might happen to them one day - being driven into the sea and slaughtered.
I had a similar experience to a far lesser extent when an Israeli woman joined a class of Saudis and other Arabs - they just stared at her as if she was from another planet and she left because they made her feel uncomfortable.
Both sides need to start seeing the other as human and come up with a solution that will let them live in peace, not just now, but several generations into the future. If it was possible in Northern Ireland and South Africa it's possible there. Deep down both sides want this, and they need it. Might be a lot more killing before it happens though, and one way of stopping that killing is to show Israel that we care enough to take action, but that we also care enough to say that what Hamas is doing is also wrong, and they can't go back to before the 1940s because things have changed.
Anyway it's dinner time. That's my rant over.