Thanks for the one sided opinion Tropics on a football forum where most of us are aghast at the situation but really know we can't do much about it, other than comment from afar.
Whereas you obviously have an all consuming desire to resolve the situation once and for all. Perhaps you really need to focus your thoughts and deeds where it really matters - possibly DC is a good place to start.
To be fair one of the above posters mentions North Korea - that is a pretty good call, I have no idea how they are allowed to compete internationally when they are basically running a national concentration camp.
just google - "1947 to date map of palestine". enough said. adios on this thread compadres, i won't post again, and will leave it to other cl members who are more dispassionate to be a voice for the (virtually) voiceless on this issue. now i'm off to defend paul heaton.
Politics & sport shouldn't mix. The athletes are not responsible for the actions of their government. If we started banning every athlete based on their national government's actions then we'd be banning a lot more than Israel - North Korea, Russia, China, Argentina, Iran, Argentina etc. The fact is our signing of Ben Haim should not have brought to mind any thought of the Gaza conflict, yet if you glanced over at the official Facebook page for CAFC, the post announcing Ben Haim's signing is full of mentions of Gaza, to the point where the admins had to warn people over anti-Semitism and delete swathes of racist and bigoted posts. Imagine how stupid Real Madrid fans would have looked if they objected to Bale's signing because of the UK's participation in the murder of people and destabilisation of states in the Middle East?
Politics & sport shouldn't mix. The athletes are not responsible for the actions of their government. If we started banning every athlete based on their national government's actions then we'd be banning a lot more than Israel - North Korea, Russia, China, Argentina, Iran, Argentina etc. The fact is our signing of Ben Haim should not have brought to mind any thought of the Gaza conflict, yet if you glanced over at the official Facebook page for CAFC, the post announcing Ben Haim's signing is full of mentions of Gaza, to the point where the admins had to warn people over anti-Semitism and delete swathes of racist and bigoted posts. Imagine how stupid Real Madrid fans would have looked if they objected to Bale's signing because of the UK's participation in the murder of people and destabilisation of states in the Middle East?
Yet mixing sports and politics in the 80s was a symbolic and powerful move that helped illustrate the public and the international communities dissatisfaction with the apartheid in South Africa, so I disagree that it shouldn't be mixed.
However an *individual* i.e. Tal Ben Haim or Gareth Bale shouldn't be excluded due to their nationality, that would be outrageous in itself. A national team that lends credibility to it's government and performs on a global stage is another matter though. So ban Israel, but not the players!
Except by banning the national team, you're banning the athletes from competions that only exist at an international level (eg Olympics, World Cup, Euros).
South Africa is not a fair comparison as South Africa's ban wasn't due to apartheid directly but that they were excluding or mistreating athletes based on their apartheid laws. Had South Africa allowed athletes to compete regardless of race I doubt they would have been excluded from sport. SA's exclusion from sport was only a tiny part of dozens of far more effective measures (such as boycotts and sanctions), and this is taking into account that South Africa is very much a sporting nation, whereas a ban across all sports for the Israel national team would have far less effect due to the fact Israel qualifies for the finals of Eurovision more often than it manages to make any noticeable impact in international sport.
Agree with Fiish. South Africa was banned because it discriminated against athletes on the basis of race.
If Israel refused to allow non-Jews to play for their teams, then a ban woudl be justified for them as well. But in fact Arab-Israelis often represent Israel in sport e.g. Walid Badir who had more than 70 caps.
If we are to ban Israel on the grounds that we don't like the way the country is run or their approach to their neigbours then we better ban a bunch of other countries (at least 30 I'd say).
Also, tarring Israeli athletes with the Zionist brush by banning them due to their country's actions is probably not the best idea if you consider the Munich massacre. Once you start conflating peaceful endeavours with separate and unrelated tensions, you give people justification to harm innocent people.
I disagree, although you made me question my stance with good points and I'm glad that on the whole, one or two posters excepted, we've managed to get six pages into this discussion with it generally remaining an intelligent and thought provoking discussion.
You disagree with what specifically? That associating national athletes with the war-crimes of their nations doesn't increase the likelihood they will be targeted for retribution by dangerous people?
Israel are not a unique case for this either. Do we ban every nation that has committed a war crime or human rights abuses in the last 5 years from all international sport? Where do we draw the line for how 'evil' a nation's government is before we ban them from entering international sporting contests?
I think a blanket ban on all sporting events for an undetermined amount of time is a mistake and I'm of your opinion in that regard.
However hypothetically if there was a sporting event being held right now that Israel were about to compete in then given the fact their government is performing war crimes on innocents in Gaza then I think the threat of exclusion, however unfair on the athletes involved, would be a bold and brave move by the international community to say that their behaviour is intolerable.
The idea that sports and politics shouldn't mix is a human created construct and there is no reason why in special cases we can't break it.
To be honest though, despite this thread being about banning Israel from sport that's not really something I'm massively passionate about either way. Raising awareness of the atrocities currently being committed is of far greater importance to me - if banning them from sport helps then so be it.
Anything that can help stop children being killed is fair game to me and I don't really care if a few athletes aren't allowed to compete in something they've trained for in the process...
I also agree with you though about where do you draw the line - some on here were unhappy with the thought of DiCanio being our manager due to his facist leanings, is that mixing sports and politics?
Also others don't want convicted rapists or drunk drivers playing for the club, which I agree with, but should the crimes of an individual forever prevent them playing sport but the (far worse) crimes of a nation not affect their ability to do so?
Celtic showing their usual solidarity with the Palestines last night in Iceland. Would be pissed off if I supported them (shudders) having my support of a 'side' expressed without my consent. No surprise though from that lot.
Also had yes votes banners. Politics and sport should never mix.
Anything that can help stop children being killed is fair game to me and I don't really care if a few athletes aren't allowed to compete in something they've trained for in the process...
There's no evidence that it would help, that's the problem. To the contrary, associating athletes with the crimes of the government of the nation they represent will only lead to more violence (see Munich and the Mossad operations that followed it).
The facts are simple: Israel has been the subject of international condemnation, boycotts, sanctions etc. for decades now and they have not made one lick of difference, they simply call any external scrutiny racist or anti-Semitic. Israel's government is only accountable to two bodies, their electorate and their military backer the USA. The USA isn't likely to turn on them anytime soon as Israel is the USA's only stable gateway into the Middle East, so this only leaves the electorate, who will blame the government for any inaction that leads to the death of a single Israeli. A single dead Israeli means more to the electorate than ten thousand Palestinians. South Africans cared about the sporting ban because sport is important to them and apartheid wasn't really protecting white South African lives, only their wealth and status. Israelis feel both their lives and very existence as both a nation and as people is constantly under threat (would you be safe knowing the only thing protecting you and your family was a rocket interception system that currently has a success rate of 80-90%?), and the only people who would be hurt by a sport ban would be the athletes who are completely innocent in all this. A sport ban would be worse than inaction because in effect it is inaction, except people believe they are actually doing something to help the situation and thus not expending resources used to implement a ban in more useful actions.
Celtic showing their usual solidarity with the Palestines last night in Iceland. Would be pissed off if I supported them (shudders) having my support of a 'side' expressed without my consent. No surprise though from that lot.
Some Celtic fans, why are you implying it was the club's initiative? By the same logic England supports racism.
Neighbour killing neighbour in The Middle East. Been going on for thousands of years and I suspect will continue for another 1,000.
Problem is, that there isn't an answer.
So the relentless killing goes on on all sides
Unfortunately and sad as the truth is, this!
Maybe just let the whole middle east get on with it until one side 'wins' or all sides are annihilated. But hold on a minute we have to be involved because of oil. Oh bugger!
I really struggle to see how any sort of reconciliation can be reached here. You've only got to look at how polarised opinion is on this thread to see what a mountain there is to climb. Apart from all the bickering on here I have actually found this a very enlightening thread. I hadn't really paid any attention throughout my life to anything taking place in Israel and its history. Some of you have really given me food for thought and made me want to follow the subject further. Shocking and sad about those 4 boys being killed on the beach, the news feeds reported them as 'being misidentified by Israeli forces', I find that hard to stomach given their size (all likely to be under 5ft) and the technology involved in the weapons the Israeli army have.
Almost as shocking is article 8 of The Slogan of the Hamas. Basically these individuals are fully committed to death because they believe it is their God's will. Until you remove that way of thinking, then I can't see much hope. As people have mentioned there are probably more extreme elements of Hamas than others, so hopefully they can reach an agreement in their own camp. Anyhow, l haven't got much more to add through lack of knowledge, but I will sign that petition to remove Blair from his role as peace envoy, and certainly try and have a better understanding of this area in the future.
Neighbour killing neighbour in The Middle East. Been going on for thousands of years and I suspect will continue for another 1,000.
Problem is, that there isn't an answer.
So the relentless killing goes on on all sides
Unfortunately and sad as the truth is, this!
Maybe just let the whole middle east get on with it until one side 'wins' or all sides are annihilated. But hold on a minute we have to be involved because of oil. Oh bugger!
Europe has also been good at killing millions and millions of people in its own wars over the last 1000 years.
While the UN often failed in protecting people in Yugoslavia it would of been much worse if they weren't there at all. Peace keeping does have a place.
The trouble is it is not a case of just letting 'them' get on with it. The west has been involved in the middle east for a very long time, often trying to create boundaries and states that don't mix with the complexity of all the people living in different ways. A good start would be the likes of the west and russia not making billions out of selling weapons. Also it would be useful if alternative energy sources were welcomed rather then being belittled as they a threat to our growth hungry economy. If Oil was not such a precious commodity some the the negative dynamics would change.
This is a problem that goes back almost sixty years in terms of modern boundaries and thousands of years in terms of attitudes between, for want of a better phrase, Jews and Gentiles in the region.
There are no easy answers.
However an already difficult job is made even harder when "the left" will not acknowledge that innocent jews die as a result of terrorism and "the right" won't accept that sometimes a sledgehammer has been used to crack a nut in response.
The truth of the matter is that atrocities have been committed by both sides over a long period of time. I don't think "The West" can do much to settle matters but if anything is to be done then a fresh page is needed and the political dogma I've referred to, which shines through this thread incidentally, put to one side and atrocities judged as atrocities rather than by "who did it."
Len I would not describe myself as being part of 'the left' I do acknowledge that Jews die as a result of terrorism.
There is no 'sometimes' about a sledgehammer being used to crack a nut' Palestine or whats left of it and Palestinians are under continual attack from Israel both in terms of Military force, and land being taken away all the time to build Israeli settlements.
Atrocity is continual.
Israel is vital for Nato and seems to be able to go about its way with pretty much zero criticism from the powers that be. While so many children and parents see family members die there will not be an end to this cycle of violence.
Not sure oil is the problem Greenie. Israel hasn't got any oil.
Given the US is a net exporter of oil and gas the argument that they need stability in the Middle East to protect their oil supplies is simply a worn out anti-US mantra. We need stability in the Middle East, as a minimum, to reduce its potential as a terrorists recruitment centre that spills out into the rest of the World.
The US got out of Iraq and ISIS look to take over with an agenda of World domination under sharia law. Probably a bit ambitious but they'll cause a lot of grief failing. If the US withdraws support for Israel because of its excessive use of force and allows it to be overrun by terrorists, it will do nothing but create potential for a new World war and millions of refugees including the same Palestinians already suffering. We're between a rock and a hard place, not that the Care Bears see that, they just want to punish Beastie.
The real World's a sh*t place and Care Bears, sadly, live in a make believe dream World.
Not sure oil is the problem Greenie. Israel hasn't got any oil.
Given the US is a net exporter of oil and gas the argument that they need stability in the Middle East to protect their oil supplies is simply a worn out anti-US mantra. We need stability in the Middle East, as a minimum, to reduce its potential as a terrorists recruitment centre that spills out into the rest of the World.
The US got out of Iraq and ISIS look to take over with an agenda of World domination under sharia law. Probably a bit ambitious but they'll cause a lot of grief failing. If the US withdraws support for Israel because of its excessive use of force and allows it to be overrun by terrorists, it will do nothing but create potential for a new World war and millions of refugees including the same Palestinians already suffering. We're between a rock and a hard place, not that the Care Bears see that, they just want to punish Beastie.
The real World's a sh*t place and Care Bears, sadly, live in a make believe dream World.
Israel barred from hosting Uefa competition matches
Israel will not be allowed to host Champions League or Europa League games because of the conflict in the country.
Maccabi Tel Aviv, Hapoel Tel Aviv and Hapoel Be'er Sheva will have to propose alternative home venues "until further notice" to Uefa, European football's governing body.
Uefa has also ruled that Russian and Ukrainian teams cannot be drawn against each other in European competition.
This is as a result of the political situation between the two countries.
This decision means Russian side FC Zenit and Dnipro of Ukraine will not be paired together at the Champions League third qualifying round draw on 18 July.
However, Uefa's Emergency Panel say that European club competition matches can be played in Ukrainian cities.
A Uefa statement added: "Based on an updated assessment of the security situation in Ukraine, the UEFA Emergency Panel has decided to allow UEFA club competition matches to be played in Dnipropetrovsk and Odesa, in addition to Kyiv and Lviv.
"This concerns FC Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk and FC Chornomorets Odesa, entering the third qualifying round of the UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League respectively."
I've prevented myself from commenting on this thread as I am firmly in the Pro-Palestinian camp, but this is outrageous, they've already gone to far but this is taking into the realms of the ridiculous.
Comments
Whereas you obviously have an all consuming desire to resolve the situation once and for all. Perhaps you really need to focus your thoughts and deeds where it really matters - possibly DC is a good place to start.
Or actually voting to make your point clear.
Good luck with that. Let us know how you get on.
However an *individual* i.e. Tal Ben Haim or Gareth Bale
South Africa is not a fair comparison as South Africa's ban wasn't due to apartheid directly but that they were excluding or mistreating athletes based on their apartheid laws. Had South Africa allowed athletes to compete regardless of race I doubt they would have been excluded from sport. SA's exclusion from sport was only a tiny part of dozens of far more effective measures (such as boycotts and sanctions), and this is taking into account that South Africa is very much a sporting nation, whereas a ban across all sports for the Israel national team would have far less effect due to the fact Israel qualifies for the finals of Eurovision more often than it manages to make any noticeable impact in international sport.
If Israel refused to allow non-Jews to play for their teams, then a ban woudl be justified for them as well. But in fact Arab-Israelis often represent Israel in sport e.g. Walid Badir who had more than 70 caps.
If we are to ban Israel on the grounds that we don't like the way the country is run or their approach to their neigbours then we better ban a bunch of other countries (at least 30 I'd say).
Israel are not a unique case for this either. Do we ban every nation that has committed a war crime or human rights abuses in the last 5 years from all international sport? Where do we draw the line for how 'evil' a nation's government is before we ban them from entering international sporting contests?
However hypothetically if there was a sporting event being held right now that Israel were about to compete in then given the fact their government is performing war crimes on innocents in Gaza then I think the threat of exclusion, however unfair on the athletes involved, would be a bold and brave move by the international community to say that their behaviour is intolerable.
The idea that sports and politics shouldn't mix is a human created construct and there is no reason why in special cases we can't break it.
To be honest though, despite this thread being about banning Israel from sport that's not really something I'm massively passionate about either way. Raising awareness of the atrocities currently being committed is of far greater importance to me - if banning them from sport helps then so be it.
Anything that can help stop children being killed is fair game to me and I don't really care if a few athletes aren't allowed to compete in something they've trained for in the process...
Also others don't want convicted rapists or drunk drivers playing for the club, which I agree with, but should the crimes of an individual forever prevent them playing sport but the (far worse) crimes of a nation not affect their ability to do so?
The facts are simple: Israel has been the subject of international condemnation, boycotts, sanctions etc. for decades now and they have not made one lick of difference, they simply call any external scrutiny racist or anti-Semitic. Israel's government is only accountable to two bodies, their electorate and their military backer the USA. The USA isn't likely to turn on them anytime soon as Israel is the USA's only stable gateway into the Middle East, so this only leaves the electorate, who will blame the government for any inaction that leads to the death of a single Israeli. A single dead Israeli means more to the electorate than ten thousand Palestinians. South Africans cared about the sporting ban because sport is important to them and apartheid wasn't really protecting white South African lives, only their wealth and status. Israelis feel both their lives and very existence as both a nation and as people is constantly under threat (would you be safe knowing the only thing protecting you and your family was a rocket interception system that currently has a success rate of 80-90%?), and the only people who would be hurt by a sport ban would be the athletes who are completely innocent in all this. A sport ban would be worse than inaction because in effect it is inaction, except people believe they are actually doing something to help the situation and thus not expending resources used to implement a ban in more useful actions.
Maybe just let the whole middle east get on with it until one side 'wins' or all sides are annihilated.
But hold on a minute we have to be involved because of oil. Oh bugger!
Almost as shocking is article 8 of The Slogan of the Hamas. Basically these individuals are fully committed to death because they believe it is their God's will. Until you remove that way of thinking, then I can't see much hope. As people have mentioned there are probably more extreme elements of Hamas than others, so hopefully they can reach an agreement in their own camp. Anyhow, l haven't got much more to add through lack of knowledge, but I will sign that petition to remove Blair from his role as peace envoy, and certainly try and have a better understanding of this area in the future.
Europe has also been good at killing millions and millions of people in its own wars over the last 1000 years.
While the UN often failed in protecting people in Yugoslavia it would of been much worse if they weren't there at all. Peace keeping does have a place.
The trouble is it is not a case of just letting 'them' get on with it. The west has been involved in the middle east for a very long time, often trying to create boundaries and states that don't mix with the complexity of all the people living in different ways. A good start would be the likes of the west and russia not making billions out of selling weapons. Also it would be useful if alternative energy sources were welcomed rather then being belittled as they a threat to our growth hungry economy. If Oil was not such a precious commodity some the the negative dynamics would change.
This is a problem that goes back almost sixty years in terms of modern boundaries and thousands of years in terms of attitudes between, for want of a better phrase, Jews and Gentiles in the region.
There are no easy answers.
However an already difficult job is made even harder when "the left" will not acknowledge that innocent jews die as a result of terrorism and "the right" won't accept that sometimes a sledgehammer has been used to crack a nut in response.
The truth of the matter is that atrocities have been committed by both sides over a long period of time. I don't think "The West" can do much to settle matters but if anything is to be done then a fresh page is needed and the political dogma I've referred to, which shines through this thread incidentally, put to one side and atrocities judged as atrocities rather than by "who did it."
There is no 'sometimes' about a sledgehammer being used to crack a nut' Palestine or whats left of it and Palestinians are under continual attack from Israel both in terms of Military force, and land being taken away all the time to build Israeli settlements.
Atrocity is continual.
Israel is vital for Nato and seems to be able to go about its way with pretty much zero criticism from the powers that be. While so many children and parents see family members die there will not be an end to this cycle of violence.
Given the US is a net exporter of oil and gas the argument that they need stability in the Middle East to protect their oil supplies is simply a worn out anti-US mantra. We need stability in the Middle East, as a minimum, to reduce its potential as a terrorists recruitment centre that spills out into the rest of the World.
The US got out of Iraq and ISIS look to take over with an agenda of World domination under sharia law. Probably a bit ambitious but they'll cause a lot of grief failing. If the US withdraws support for Israel because of its excessive use of force and allows it to be overrun by terrorists, it will do nothing but create potential for a new World war and millions of refugees including the same Palestinians already suffering. We're between a rock and a hard place, not that the Care Bears see that, they just want to punish Beastie.
The real World's a sh*t place and Care Bears, sadly, live in a make believe dream World.
Israel barred from hosting Uefa competition matches
Israel will not be allowed to host Champions League or Europa League games because of the conflict in the country.
Maccabi Tel Aviv, Hapoel Tel Aviv and Hapoel Be'er Sheva will have to propose alternative home venues "until further notice" to Uefa, European football's governing body.
Uefa has also ruled that Russian and Ukrainian teams cannot be drawn against each other in European competition.
This is as a result of the political situation between the two countries.
This decision means Russian side FC Zenit and Dnipro of Ukraine will not be paired together at the Champions League third qualifying round draw on 18 July.
However, Uefa's Emergency Panel say that European club competition matches can be played in Ukrainian cities.
A Uefa statement added: "Based on an updated assessment of the security situation in Ukraine, the UEFA Emergency Panel has decided to allow UEFA club competition matches to be played in Dnipropetrovsk and Odesa, in addition to Kyiv and Lviv.
"This concerns FC Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk and FC Chornomorets Odesa, entering the third qualifying round of the UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League respectively."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/28350464
I've prevented myself from commenting on this thread as I am firmly in the Pro-Palestinian camp, but this is outrageous, they've already gone to far but this is taking into the realms of the ridiculous.
this should be fun, where is tropics?