Probably get a ban knowing how sensitive this forum can be but some of these posts are ridiculous.
It's sad that it's even a possibility that the majority of any London Borough may have English as it's second language. Just isn't acceptable.
I don't have a problem with people speaking in their own language when they visit the country, I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
So you should only be allowed to live in the country if English is your first language?
Don't think I said that, I'm saying that if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try. If people don't then I'll just rollover as that's what we're good as a country at doing now.
But this survey - which prompted this thread - was based on information as to languages other than English which are spoken, that doesn't mean they can't speak English too.
I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
But why? Are you worried they're talking about you or something?
I've lived in a few countries and can't say I've ever seen British expats walking around speaking the local tongue to each other. If it's all of a sudden such a cornerstone of British manners...
No not really, but it is a bit annoying when you get served on a till by someone speaking English only to turn to their mates and speak in their own language, what's the need. I've got lots of friends who were not born here or their parents migrated before they were born yet they always speak English and never decide to suddenly flip between the languages when we're out.
Why does it bother you ? In you first post you've said "if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try" - in your hypothetical shop example they've done just that, and addressed you in English because you can't speak another language.
Because I live in England and so do they? Why would I or they address me in any other language? Are you for real?
But they didn't, they spoke to you in English as per your request. Are you saying that any conversation held in your presence - even one not involving you - must be conducted in English ?
Misunderstood sorry.
It shouldn't be a request, they work in a shop in England so it should be a given to speak English, so you can't really refer to it as a request can you. Request the complete wrong word.
I don't think they should then turn to their mates and speak another language if they've clearly just spoke English to me.
So if you moved to Spain and learnt the language so you could communicate with Spanish speakers you would not converse in English with other ex pats? Really?
Yes, if I can speak the language and if people could around me my why wouldn't I. I'd only go back to English if I had to speak to a English person visiting that could only speak English.
Probably get a ban knowing how sensitive this forum can be but some of these posts are ridiculous.
It's sad that it's even a possibility that the majority of any London Borough may have English as it's second language. Just isn't acceptable.
I don't have a problem with people speaking in their own language when they visit the country, I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
So you should only be allowed to live in the country if English is your first language?
Don't think I said that, I'm saying that if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try. If people don't then I'll just rollover as that's what we're good as a country at doing now.
But this survey - which prompted this thread - was based on information as to languages other than English which are spoken, that doesn't mean they can't speak English too.
I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
But why? Are you worried they're talking about you or something?
I've lived in a few countries and can't say I've ever seen British expats walking around speaking the local tongue to each other. If it's all of a sudden such a cornerstone of British manners...
No not really, but it is a bit annoying when you get served on a till by someone speaking English only to turn to their mates and speak in their own language, what's the need. I've got lots of friends who were not born here or their parents migrated before they were born yet they always speak English and never decide to suddenly flip between the languages when we're out.
Why does it bother you ? In you first post you've said "if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try" - in your hypothetical shop example they've done just that, and addressed you in English because you can't speak another language.
Because I live in England and so do they? Why would I or they address me in any other language? Are you for real?
But they didn't, they spoke to you in English as per your request. Are you saying that any conversation held in your presence - even one not involving you - must be conducted in English ?
Misunderstood sorry.
It shouldn't be a request, they work in a shop in England so it should be a given to speak English, so you can't really refer to it as a request can you. Request the complete wrong word.
I don't think they should then turn to their mates and speak another language if they've clearly just spoke English to me.
So if you moved to Spain and learnt the language so you could communicate with Spanish speakers you would not converse in English with other ex pats? Really?
Yes, if I can speak the language and if people could around me my why wouldn't I. I'd only go back to English if I had to speak to a English person visiting that could only speak English.
You'd be in a minority of 1 amongst the Spanish ex pats I know then. Dozens of them. Including my mum. They all speak English to each other when they're together, and Spanish to Spaniards. And my Mum speaks Spanish fluently.
Probably get a ban knowing how sensitive this forum can be but some of these posts are ridiculous.
It's sad that it's even a possibility that the majority of any London Borough may have English as it's second language. Just isn't acceptable.
I don't have a problem with people speaking in their own language when they visit the country, I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
So you should only be allowed to live in the country if English is your first language?
Don't think I said that, I'm saying that if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try. If people don't then I'll just rollover as that's what we're good as a country at doing now.
But this survey - which prompted this thread - was based on information as to languages other than English which are spoken, that doesn't mean they can't speak English too.
I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
But why? Are you worried they're talking about you or something?
I've lived in a few countries and can't say I've ever seen British expats walking around speaking the local tongue to each other. If it's all of a sudden such a cornerstone of British manners...
No not really, but it is a bit annoying when you get served on a till by someone speaking English only to turn to their mates and speak in their own language, what's the need. I've got lots of friends who were not born here or their parents migrated before they were born yet they always speak English and never decide to suddenly flip between the languages when we're out.
Why does it bother you ? In you first post you've said "if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try" - in your hypothetical shop example they've done just that, and addressed you in English because you can't speak another language.
Because I live in England and so do they? Why would I or they address me in any other language? Are you for real?
But they didn't, they spoke to you in English as per your request. Are you saying that any conversation held in your presence - even one not involving you - must be conducted in English ?
Misunderstood sorry.
It shouldn't be a request, they work in a shop in England so it should be a given to speak English, so you can't really refer to it as a request can you. Request the complete wrong word.
I don't think they should then turn to their mates and speak another language if they've clearly just spoke English to me.
So if you moved to Spain and learnt the language so you could communicate with Spanish speakers you would not converse in English with other ex pats? Really?
Yes, if I can speak the language and if people could around me my why wouldn't I. I'd only go back to English if I had to speak to a English person visiting that could only speak English.
You'd be in a minority of 1 amongst the Spanish ex pats I know then. Dozens of them. Including my mum. They all speak English to each other when they're together, and Spanish to Spaniards. And my Mum speaks Spanish fluently.
And the the all the Brits I know in Portugal, which is what I was (slightly sarcastically - sorry Braziliance) getting at a few posts back...
Probably get a ban knowing how sensitive this forum can be but some of these posts are ridiculous.
It's sad that it's even a possibility that the majority of any London Borough may have English as it's second language. Just isn't acceptable.
I don't have a problem with people speaking in their own language when they visit the country, I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
So you should only be allowed to live in the country if English is your first language?
Don't think I said that, I'm saying that if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try. If people don't then I'll just rollover as that's what we're good as a country at doing now.
But this survey - which prompted this thread - was based on information as to languages other than English which are spoken, that doesn't mean they can't speak English too.
I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
But why? Are you worried they're talking about you or something?
I've lived in a few countries and can't say I've ever seen British expats walking around speaking the local tongue to each other. If it's all of a sudden such a cornerstone of British manners...
No not really, but it is a bit annoying when you get served on a till by someone speaking English only to turn to their mates and speak in their own language, what's the need. I've got lots of friends who were not born here or their parents migrated before they were born yet they always speak English and never decide to suddenly flip between the languages when we're out.
Why does it bother you ? In you first post you've said "if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try" - in your hypothetical shop example they've done just that, and addressed you in English because you can't speak another language.
Because I live in England and so do they? Why would I or they address me in any other language? Are you for real?
But they didn't, they spoke to you in English as per your request. Are you saying that any conversation held in your presence - even one not involving you - must be conducted in English ?
Misunderstood sorry.
It shouldn't be a request, they work in a shop in England so it should be a given to speak English, so you can't really refer to it as a request can you. Request the complete wrong word.
I don't think they should then turn to their mates and speak another language if they've clearly just spoke English to me.
So if you moved to Spain and learnt the language so you could communicate with Spanish speakers you would not converse in English with other ex pats? Really?
Yes, if I can speak the language and if people could around me my why wouldn't I. I'd only go back to English if I had to speak to a English person visiting that could only speak English.
You'd be in a minority of 1 amongst the Spanish ex pats I know then. Dozens of them. Including my mum. They all speak English to each other when they're together, and Spanish to Spaniards. And my Mum speaks Spanish fluently.
Fair enough, each to their own then. No point posting about it anymore for me.
I think people should speak English in England other people don't care, all there is to it.
Fair enough. I think our unscientific straw poll would suggest that the majority of people who go abroad choose to speak English to their English friends, so don't share your views.
I would never have guessed that Nepalese would be the most spoken foreign language in the London Borough of Greenwich, you really do learn something new every day!
With regard to UK Expats, I have been travelling to Hong Kong and Singapore for years and have never met a British Expat with more than a handful of words in Cantonese or Mandarin, they speak English with each other and to the locals. There may be a handful who can speak the local language but they are in the minority.
Interestingly, I once had a conversation with a high-level executive from a major Chinese firm that has a global footprint and where English is the Lingua Franca (even at their HQ in China), and he said the Chinese preferred to speak English and did not want the westerners to learn Chinese. Why?
"Because if we know your language we can know you and understand how you think, if you don't know our language then you can never really know us or how or what we think - and that gives us a big advantage over you."
Probably get a ban knowing how sensitive this forum can be but some of these posts are ridiculous.
It's sad that it's even a possibility that the majority of any London Borough may have English as it's second language. Just isn't acceptable.
I don't have a problem with people speaking in their own language when they visit the country, I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
So you should only be allowed to live in the country if English is your first language?
Don't think I said that, I'm saying that if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try. If people don't then I'll just rollover as that's what we're good as a country at doing now.
But this survey - which prompted this thread - was based on information as to languages other than English which are spoken, that doesn't mean they can't speak English too.
I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
But why? Are you worried they're talking about you or something?
I've lived in a few countries and can't say I've ever seen British expats walking around speaking the local tongue to each other. If it's all of a sudden such a cornerstone of British manners...
No not really, but it is a bit annoying when you get served on a till by someone speaking English only to turn to their mates and speak in their own language, what's the need. I've got lots of friends who were not born here or their parents migrated before they were born yet they always speak English and never decide to suddenly flip between the languages when we're out.
Why does it bother you ? In you first post you've said "if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try" - in your hypothetical shop example they've done just that, and addressed you in English because you can't speak another language.
Because I live in England and so do they? Why would I or they address me in any other language? Are you for real?
But they didn't, they spoke to you in English as per your request. Are you saying that any conversation held in your presence - even one not involving you - must be conducted in English ?
Misunderstood sorry.
It shouldn't be a request, they work in a shop in England so it should be a given to speak English, so you can't really refer to it as a request can you. Request the complete wrong word.
I don't think they should then turn to their mates and speak another language if they've clearly just spoke English to me.
So if you moved to Spain and learnt the language so you could communicate with Spanish speakers you would not converse in English with other ex pats? Really?
Yes, if I can speak the language and if people could around me my why wouldn't I. I'd only go back to English if I had to speak to a English person visiting that could only speak English.
You're talking bollocks. Whilst in China I've tried to learn the language, I - try - to speak to my mother in law in Chinese, I have non English speaking friends, with whom I obviously speak Chinese, after a long day at work I get home, grab a beer and relax on huge sofa, do you know what language I speak? Not bloody Chinese.
Can you even speak a second language? Are you aware of the effort it can take it think through everything you want to say in your head before you say it? Of course if I was fluent in Chinese it would be easier, but I'm not. By your logic should I even be learning Mandarin? What about the local dialect? Should I be focusing on kunminghua?
By your rules, am I even allowed to post in English?
IMO, if you're going to go and live in any country, it should be a requirement to be able to speak the basics in the native language of the country you are going to live in. Mainly for health and safety reasons than 'convenience'.
Example, I was at work putting some sockets on in a kitchen. I turned all the power off and had 'warning do not touch' signs on the fuse board. I told everyone in the house not to turn any power on.
One of the people I told was a polish cleaner who nodded at me when I told him. Just as i finished the first socket I heard the Hoover going. The polish cleaner had turned the power on and when I questioned him he was just waving his hands. He didn't have a scooby what I'd told him. This could have potentially caused serious harm to myself if I had taken a minute longer to finish what I was doing.
Sorry for the waffle but I think that it's quite good back up for the point that I originally made.
I don't have an opinion on the thread topic as such. However, I'm always struck how, during such topics, the posters who oppose multi-culturalism/multi linguistics etc, are always treated in a condescending manner by those who agree with it.
Mind you, I haven't read past page 1, mainly for the above reason.
It's probably because there is never a reasonable explanation given for opposing it. See PL54's posts for examples of this.
Oh do knob off.
I am all for multiculturalism, social integration and harmony but that requires a common language - at least when the various parties come together in places like school, shops and the such like. Otherwise you have isolation and miscommunication at best.
For the time being and seeing as this is happening in England after all, I think that the shared, majority language should be English.
What does "shared, majority language" mean? Because if it means that, in London, most people should speak English, that's what we've got.
Good and let's hope it stays that way.
Out of interest, PL54 - where do you live?
I moved out of SE15 some 15 years ago and live in Surrey - Cobham to be precise.
I don't have an opinion on the thread topic as such. However, I'm always struck how, during such topics, the posters who oppose multi-culturalism/multi linguistics etc, are always treated in a condescending manner by those who agree with it.
Mind you, I haven't read past page 1, mainly for the above reason.
It's probably because there is never a reasonable explanation given for opposing it. See PL54's posts for examples of this.
Oh do knob off.
I am all for multiculturalism, social integration and harmony but that requires a common language - at least when the various parties come together in places like school, shops and the such like. Otherwise you have isolation and miscommunication at best.
For the time being and seeing as this is happening in England after all, I think that the shared, majority language should be English.
Interestingly many children in this country speak at least two languages just not the modern european that this old fashioned government want them to. One down side is many children born in this country will not speak english until they attend school, which does add to the difficulties of educating these children.
I was in a Tesco store in Weybridge on bank holiday Monday and my son wanted the loo. So I asked a Tesco assistant on the shop floor where the toilets were, but she snapped back "I don't speak English, sorry" and walked off. "Ah, thanks very much" I said and went off to find another 'assistant'. It might be great that so many different languages are spoken here, but I don't think it unreasonable for newcomers settling and working here to speak English.
Are you sure they worked there ? I'd be pretty surprised if a major supermarket would employ someone on the working floor that literally couldn't speak English.
Only a couple of clues to her being a employee really; like she was wearing a Tesco uniform and was pushing a large trolley of trays in the restaurant area back into the kitchen.
So she was a kitchen assistant then? Probably doing a menial job that no-one else wanted to do (rather than "coming over here, living off the dole") whilst she learns the language?
She shouldn't have snapped at you though. You should have complained at the time about that.
I don't know what her job title was. And I'd be guessing why she's working there. I just presumed I could ask an employee a question and get an answer.
Maybe I should have complained. But that would have involved me finding a manager and wasting more of my bank holiday with children in tow.
You could have spent the time you used to post about it in here to fire off an e-mail to Tesco I suppose? That might actually change something...
Possibly, but I'd forgotten all about the incident until I saw this thread and just thought I'd share the story as it was linked to the topic.
I was in a Tesco store in Weybridge on bank holiday Monday and my son wanted the loo. So I asked a Tesco assistant on the shop floor where the toilets were, but she snapped back "I don't speak English, sorry" and walked off. "Ah, thanks very much" I said and went off to find another 'assistant'. It might be great that so many different languages are spoken here, but I don't think it unreasonable for newcomers settling and working here to speak English.
Are you sure they worked there ? I'd be pretty surprised if a major supermarket would employ someone on the working floor that literally couldn't speak English.
Only a couple of clues to her being a employee really; like she was wearing a Tesco uniform and was pushing a large trolley of trays in the restaurant area back into the kitchen.
So she was a kitchen assistant then? Probably doing a menial job that no-one else wanted to do (rather than "coming over here, living off the dole") whilst she learns the language?
She shouldn't have snapped at you though. You should have complained at the time about that.
I don't know what her job title was. And I'd be guessing why she's working there. I just presumed I could ask an employee a question and get an answer.
Maybe I should have complained. But that would have involved me finding a manager and wasting more of my bank holiday with children in tow.
Are you more upset that she was rude or that she was a rude foreigner?
More upset that she was rude.
So it didn't matter what language she speaks
Of course it matters. Perhaps you can speak a number of different languages but I can only speak English and some school boy French.
English is spoken differently throughout the land and the world, it evolves constantly. The Queen does not speak the same as her grandsons (or like she did 60 years ago) and the 4 lads that got on my train at Grove Park spoke a form of English quite different from mine. May be the world should speak English with a South East London 1970's dialect.
I don't have an opinion on the thread topic as such. However, I'm always struck how, during such topics, the posters who oppose multi-culturalism/multi linguistics etc, are always treated in a condescending manner by those who agree with it.
Mind you, I haven't read past page 1, mainly for the above reason.
It's probably because there is never a reasonable explanation given for opposing it. See PL54's posts for examples of this.
Oh do knob off.
I am all for multiculturalism, social integration and harmony but that requires a common language - at least when the various parties come together in places like school, shops and the such like. Otherwise you have isolation and miscommunication at best.
For the time being and seeing as this is happening in England after all, I think that the shared, majority language should be English.
What does "shared, majority language" mean? Because if it means that, in London, most people should speak English, that's what we've got.
Good and let's hope it stays that way.
Out of interest, PL54 - where do you live?
I moved out of SE15 some 15 years ago and live in Surrey - Cobham to be precise.
Great. Then why don't you leave worrying about London to those people who still live in a London Borough - and stick to worrying about the thousands in Cobham who don't speak English as a first language... Oh. Wait. That's right - the vast majority of us are just fine with the situation, and the number of people who live in Cobham who don't speak English as a first language can be counted on the fingers of one knee.
I don't have an opinion on the thread topic as such. However, I'm always struck how, during such topics, the posters who oppose multi-culturalism/multi linguistics etc, are always treated in a condescending manner by those who agree with it.
Mind you, I haven't read past page 1, mainly for the above reason.
It's probably because there is never a reasonable explanation given for opposing it. See PL54's posts for examples of this.
Oh do knob off.
I am all for multiculturalism, social integration and harmony but that requires a common language - at least when the various parties come together in places like school, shops and the such like. Otherwise you have isolation and miscommunication at best.
For the time being and seeing as this is happening in England after all, I think that the shared, majority language should be English.
What does "shared, majority language" mean? Because if it means that, in London, most people should speak English, that's what we've got.
Good and let's hope it stays that way.
Out of interest, PL54 - where do you live?
I moved out of SE15 some 15 years ago and live in Surrey - Cobham to be precise.
and the number of people who live in Cobham who don't speak English as a first language can be counted on the fingers of one knee.
I would think that this would be more of a Cray phenomenon ?!?
I used to speak my office telephone number in Cantonese when answering the phone at work, until i heard laughter and was told i was saying penis instead of 9... i gave up after 5 Cantonese lessons, brain too small for all those tones!
Probably get a ban knowing how sensitive this forum can be but some of these posts are ridiculous.
It's sad that it's even a possibility that the majority of any London Borough may have English as it's second language. Just isn't acceptable.
I don't have a problem with people speaking in their own language when they visit the country, I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
So you should only be allowed to live in the country if English is your first language?
Don't think I said that, I'm saying that if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try. If people don't then I'll just rollover as that's what we're good as a country at doing now.
But this survey - which prompted this thread - was based on information as to languages other than English which are spoken, that doesn't mean they can't speak English too.
I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
But why? Are you worried they're talking about you or something?
I've lived in a few countries and can't say I've ever seen British expats walking around speaking the local tongue to each other. If it's all of a sudden such a cornerstone of British manners...
No not really, but it is a bit annoying when you get served on a till by someone speaking English only to turn to their mates and speak in their own language, what's the need. I've got lots of friends who were not born here or their parents migrated before they were born yet they always speak English and never decide to suddenly flip between the languages when we're out.
Why does it bother you ? In you first post you've said "if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try" - in your hypothetical shop example they've done just that, and addressed you in English because you can't speak another language.
Because I live in England and so do they? Why would I or they address me in any other language? Are you for real?
But they didn't, they spoke to you in English as per your request. Are you saying that any conversation held in your presence - even one not involving you - must be conducted in English ?
Misunderstood sorry.
It shouldn't be a request, they work in a shop in England so it should be a given to speak English, so you can't really refer to it as a request can you. Request the complete wrong word.
I don't think they should then turn to their mates and speak another language if they've clearly just spoke English to me.
So if you moved to Spain and learnt the language so you could communicate with Spanish speakers you would not converse in English with other ex pats? Really?
Yes, if I can speak the language and if people could around me my why wouldn't I. I'd only go back to English if I had to speak to a English person visiting that could only speak English.
You're talking bollocks. Whilst in China I've tried to learn the language, I - try - to speak to my mother in law in Chinese, I have non English speaking friends, with whom I obviously speak Chinese, after a long day at work I get home, grab a beer and relax on huge sofa, do you know what language I speak? Not bloody Chinese.
Can you even speak a second language? Are you aware of the effort it can take it think through everything you want to say in your head before you say it? Of course if I was fluent in Chinese it would be easier, but I'm not. By your logic should I even be learning Mandarin? What about the local dialect? Should I be focusing on kunminghua?
By your rules, am I even allowed to post in English?
太笨蛋
Why would I lie? I would definitely try to learn the language of another country if I lived there and would eventually.
No I don't speak another language but I don't feel the need to as I live in England. I know a bit of Spanish but that's as far as it goes.
I know it would be very hard to learn a different language. I am sorry that you won't learn Chinese.
It's a site full of English people focused on an English club and you can speak English so to answer your witty question, yeah I suppose you can?
You haven't read my post properly have you? In my scenario (that's happened a few times) the person behind the till can also speak fluent English but then switches to speak their own language to people that also can speak English but are choosing not to.
I believe ones views on this subject, which has been enlarged to encompass multiculturalism and standards, stems in part from where you live and what you have endured in the past.
As one who was raised in Charlton in the 1950s/60s, I lived in a predominately white area and issues around language barriers and differing culture such as we face today were not on the radar. Charlton today (and I return regularly for the football) is a vastly different place to that in which I was raised. I now live in a lovely middle class market town in Bucks, predominately white. As a throwaway line, I have for over 30 years,and still do, financially support a charity for non-white people. I like to think that that makes me non-racist.
However, London apart, I don't believe multiculturalism works in the UK. Non indigenous people arrive on our shores and understandable graduate to areas that are already populated by their kith and kin. This situation creates a mini class of the country from which they have just left - for Leicester, rename India; Bradford, Pakistan; East London, Bangladesh etc. Such areas are then turned into the slum areas from which the same people originated. This to me is the reality of life in some parts of the UK and it is not a situation that I think benefits that many people. To me, multiculturalism simply doesn't work in the UK. In the USA it is fine because many different cultures emigrated to the USA at the same time and thus no single engrained culture was under a challenge (ignoring the Native American issue which was not a single culture).
Younger members of Charlton Life living in SE London today may well know of no different culture to that they experience today. Therefore their views may be shaped by the situation they find themselves in and may be diametrically different to my views expressed above.
I believe ones views on this subject, which has been enlarged to encompass multiculturalism and standards, stems in part from where you live and what you have endured in the past.
As one who was raised in Charlton in the 1950s/60s, I lived in a predominately white area and issues around language barriers and differing culture such as we face today were not on the radar. Charlton today (and I return regularly for the football) is a vastly different place to that in which I was raised. I now live in a lovely middle class market town in Bucks, predominately white. As a throwaway line, I have for over 30 years,and still do, financially support a charity for non-white people. I like to think that that makes me non-racist.
However, London apart, I don't believe multiculturalism works in the UK. Non indigenous people arrive on our shores and understandable graduate to areas that are already populated by their kith and kin. This situation creates a mini class of the country from which they have just left - for Leicester, rename India; Bradford, Pakistan; East London, Bangladesh etc. Such areas are then turned into the slum areas from which the same people originated. This to me is the reality of life in some parts of the UK and it is not a situation that I think benefits that many people. To me, multiculturalism simply doesn't work in the UK. In the USA it is fine because many different cultures emigrated to the USA at the same time and thus no single engrained culture was under a challenge (ignoring the Native American issue which was not a single culture).
Younger members of Charlton Life living in SE London today may well know of no different culture to that they experience today. Therefore their views may be shaped by the situation they find themselves in and may be diametrically different to my views expressed above.
Very interesting views.
One thing that I think marks someone out as not being a racist is avoiding phrases like
"I don't believe multiculturalism works"
"non indigenous people arrive on our shores"
"for Leicester, rename India. Bradford, Pakistan. East London, Bangladesh etc"
"...the slum from which the same people originated"
"To me, multiculturalism simply doesn't work in the UK"
And another thing that, for me, really marks out someone as not being a racist is (1) supporting a charity without reference to the colour of the people it benefits and (2) keeping quiet about it.
Probably get a ban knowing how sensitive this forum can be but some of these posts are ridiculous.
It's sad that it's even a possibility that the majority of any London Borough may have English as it's second language. Just isn't acceptable.
I don't have a problem with people speaking in their own language when they visit the country, I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
So you should only be allowed to live in the country if English is your first language?
Don't think I said that, I'm saying that if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try. If people don't then I'll just rollover as that's what we're good as a country at doing now.
But this survey - which prompted this thread - was based on information as to languages other than English which are spoken, that doesn't mean they can't speak English too.
I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
But why? Are you worried they're talking about you or something?
I've lived in a few countries and can't say I've ever seen British expats walking around speaking the local tongue to each other. If it's all of a sudden such a cornerstone of British manners...
No not really, but it is a bit annoying when you get served on a till by someone speaking English only to turn to their mates and speak in their own language, what's the need. I've got lots of friends who were not born here or their parents migrated before they were born yet they always speak English and never decide to suddenly flip between the languages when we're out.
Why does it bother you ? In you first post you've said "if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try" - in your hypothetical shop example they've done just that, and addressed you in English because you can't speak another language.
Because I live in England and so do they? Why would I or they address me in any other language? Are you for real?
But they didn't, they spoke to you in English as per your request. Are you saying that any conversation held in your presence - even one not involving you - must be conducted in English ?
Misunderstood sorry.
It shouldn't be a request, they work in a shop in England so it should be a given to speak English, so you can't really refer to it as a request can you. Request the complete wrong word.
I don't think they should then turn to their mates and speak another language if they've clearly just spoke English to me.
So if you moved to Spain and learnt the language so you could communicate with Spanish speakers you would not converse in English with other ex pats? Really?
Yes, if I can speak the language and if people could around me my why wouldn't I. I'd only go back to English if I had to speak to a English person visiting that could only speak English.
Hilarious.
Myself and my wife spent 5 years learning French before we moved there and both of us had a far better level than most of those ex-pats who thought they could speak it just because they could order a beer and a coffee. But there was still no way we could converse with each other all day, every day, in French. And nor would we want to as it's actually flipping exhausting dealing with everyone else in their language all day without trying to remember the phrase for "put the kettle on love I'm gasping..." at 9:00 pm when there's not another French speaker within 500m of us. Try it for yourself and you'll realise what you're proposing is laughably unreasonable.
I believe ones views on this subject, which has been enlarged to encompass multiculturalism and standards, stems in part from where you live and what you have endured in the past.
As one who was raised in Charlton in the 1950s/60s, I lived in a predominately white area and issues around language barriers and differing culture such as we face today were not on the radar. Charlton today (and I return regularly for the football) is a vastly different place to that in which I was raised. I now live in a lovely middle class market town in Bucks, predominately white. As a throwaway line, I have for over 30 years,and still do, financially support a charity for non-white people. I like to think that that makes me non-racist.
However, London apart, I don't believe multiculturalism works in the UK. Non indigenous people arrive on our shores and understandable graduate to areas that are already populated by their kith and kin. This situation creates a mini class of the country from which they have just left - for Leicester, rename India; Bradford, Pakistan; East London, Bangladesh etc. Such areas are then turned into the slum areas from which the same people originated. This to me is the reality of life in some parts of the UK and it is not a situation that I think benefits that many people. To me, multiculturalism simply doesn't work in the UK. In the USA it is fine because many different cultures emigrated to the USA at the same time and thus no single engrained culture was under a challenge (ignoring the Native American issue which was not a single culture).
Younger members of Charlton Life living in SE London today may well know of no different culture to that they experience today. Therefore their views may be shaped by the situation they find themselves in and may be diametrically different to my views expressed above.
Very interesting views.
One thing that I think marks someone out as not being a racist is avoiding phrases like
"I don't believe multiculturalism works"
"non indigenous people arrive on our shores"
"for Leicester, rename India. Bradford, Pakistan. East London, Bangladesh etc"
"...the slum from which the same people originated"
"To me, multiculturalism simply doesn't work in the UK"
And another thing that, for me, really marks out someone as not being a racist is (1) supporting a charity without reference to the colour of the people it benefits and (2) keeping quiet about it.
You constantly post on here like some righteous crusader
Why are you always so offended by other people's views?
Probably get a ban knowing how sensitive this forum can be but some of these posts are ridiculous.
It's sad that it's even a possibility that the majority of any London Borough may have English as it's second language. Just isn't acceptable.
I don't have a problem with people speaking in their own language when they visit the country, I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
So you should only be allowed to live in the country if English is your first language?
Don't think I said that, I'm saying that if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try. If people don't then I'll just rollover as that's what we're good as a country at doing now.
But this survey - which prompted this thread - was based on information as to languages other than English which are spoken, that doesn't mean they can't speak English too.
I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
But why? Are you worried they're talking about you or something?
I've lived in a few countries and can't say I've ever seen British expats walking around speaking the local tongue to each other. If it's all of a sudden such a cornerstone of British manners...
No not really, but it is a bit annoying when you get served on a till by someone speaking English only to turn to their mates and speak in their own language, what's the need. I've got lots of friends who were not born here or their parents migrated before they were born yet they always speak English and never decide to suddenly flip between the languages when we're out.
Why does it bother you ? In you first post you've said "if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try" - in your hypothetical shop example they've done just that, and addressed you in English because you can't speak another language.
Because I live in England and so do they? Why would I or they address me in any other language? Are you for real?
But they didn't, they spoke to you in English as per your request. Are you saying that any conversation held in your presence - even one not involving you - must be conducted in English ?
Misunderstood sorry.
It shouldn't be a request, they work in a shop in England so it should be a given to speak English, so you can't really refer to it as a request can you. Request the complete wrong word.
I don't think they should then turn to their mates and speak another language if they've clearly just spoke English to me.
So if you moved to Spain and learnt the language so you could communicate with Spanish speakers you would not converse in English with other ex pats? Really?
Yes, if I can speak the language and if people could around me my why wouldn't I. I'd only go back to English if I had to speak to a English person visiting that could only speak English.
You're talking bollocks. Whilst in China I've tried to learn the language, I - try - to speak to my mother in law in Chinese, I have non English speaking friends, with whom I obviously speak Chinese, after a long day at work I get home, grab a beer and relax on huge sofa, do you know what language I speak? Not bloody Chinese.
Can you even speak a second language? Are you aware of the effort it can take it think through everything you want to say in your head before you say it? Of course if I was fluent in Chinese it would be easier, but I'm not. By your logic should I even be learning Mandarin? What about the local dialect? Should I be focusing on kunminghua?
By your rules, am I even allowed to post in English?
太笨蛋
Why would I lie? I would definitely try to learn the language of another country if I lived there and would eventually.
No I don't speak another language but I don't feel the need to as I live in England. I know a bit of Spanish but that's as far as it goes.
I know it would be very hard to learn a different language. I am sorry that you won't learn Chinese.
It's a site full of English people focused on an English club and you can speak English so to answer your witty question, yeah I suppose you can?
You haven't read my post properly have you? In my scenario (that's happened a few times) the person behind the till can also speak fluent English but then switches to speak their own language to people that also can speak English but are choosing not to.
I think it's you who doesn't understand. He (Stu) is teaching in China. He has also stated that he DOES speak (Mandarin, I believe - there's no such thing as 'Chinese')
What he's saying is that just because there are obvious situations where he needs to speak it in his daily life, when he's with English-speaking people there, he speaks English. As do all the English ex-pats who live, work and socialise with my mum.
Seems to me patently obvious that you would speak your native tongue when with people who share it. What most people appear to have a problem with is large numbers of people in the same area who don't speak English as their main language, which is a completely different argument.
I believe ones views on this subject, which has been enlarged to encompass multiculturalism and standards, stems in part from where you live and what you have endured in the past.
As one who was raised in Charlton in the 1950s/60s, I lived in a predominately white area and issues around language barriers and differing culture such as we face today were not on the radar. Charlton today (and I return regularly for the football) is a vastly different place to that in which I was raised. I now live in a lovely middle class market town in Bucks, predominately white. As a throwaway line, I have for over 30 years,and still do, financially support a charity for non-white people. I like to think that that makes me non-racist.
However, London apart, I don't believe multiculturalism works in the UK. Non indigenous people arrive on our shores and understandable graduate to areas that are already populated by their kith and kin. This situation creates a mini class of the country from which they have just left - for Leicester, rename India; Bradford, Pakistan; East London, Bangladesh etc. Such areas are then turned into the slum areas from which the same people originated. This to me is the reality of life in some parts of the UK and it is not a situation that I think benefits that many people. To me, multiculturalism simply doesn't work in the UK. In the USA it is fine because many different cultures emigrated to the USA at the same time and thus no single engrained culture was under a challenge (ignoring the Native American issue which was not a single culture).
Younger members of Charlton Life living in SE London today may well know of no different culture to that they experience today. Therefore their views may be shaped by the situation they find themselves in and may be diametrically different to my views expressed above.
Very interesting views.
One thing that I think marks someone out as not being a racist is avoiding phrases like
"I don't believe multiculturalism works"
"non indigenous people arrive on our shores"
"for Leicester, rename India. Bradford, Pakistan. East London, Bangladesh etc"
"...the slum from which the same people originated"
"To me, multiculturalism simply doesn't work in the UK"
And another thing that, for me, really marks out someone as not being a racist is (1) supporting a charity without reference to the colour of the people it benefits and (2) keeping quiet about it.
You constantly post on here like some righteous crusader
Are you able to never be offended by other people's views?
Do you ever keep your opinions to yourself?
Great post. I think this forum works best when people *do* share their opinions. Do you agree?
I believe ones views on this subject, which has been enlarged to encompass multiculturalism and standards, stems in part from where you live and what you have endured in the past.
As one who was raised in Charlton in the 1950s/60s, I lived in a predominately white area and issues around language barriers and differing culture such as we face today were not on the radar. Charlton today (and I return regularly for the football) is a vastly different place to that in which I was raised. I now live in a lovely middle class market town in Bucks, predominately white. As a throwaway line, I have for over 30 years,and still do, financially support a charity for non-white people. I like to think that that makes me non-racist.
However, London apart, I don't believe multiculturalism works in the UK. Non indigenous people arrive on our shores and understandable graduate to areas that are already populated by their kith and kin. This situation creates a mini class of the country from which they have just left - for Leicester, rename India; Bradford, Pakistan; East London, Bangladesh etc. Such areas are then turned into the slum areas from which the same people originated. This to me is the reality of life in some parts of the UK and it is not a situation that I think benefits that many people. To me, multiculturalism simply doesn't work in the UK. In the USA it is fine because many different cultures emigrated to the USA at the same time and thus no single engrained culture was under a challenge (ignoring the Native American issue which was not a single culture).
Younger members of Charlton Life living in SE London today may well know of no different culture to that they experience today. Therefore their views may be shaped by the situation they find themselves in and may be diametrically different to my views expressed above.
Very interesting views.
One thing that I think marks someone out as not being a racist is avoiding phrases like
"I don't believe multiculturalism works"
"non indigenous people arrive on our shores"
"for Leicester, rename India. Bradford, Pakistan. East London, Bangladesh etc"
"...the slum from which the same people originated"
"To me, multiculturalism simply doesn't work in the UK"
And another thing that, for me, really marks out someone as not being a racist is (1) supporting a charity without reference to the colour of the people it benefits and (2) keeping quiet about it.
You constantly post on here like some righteous crusader
Are you able to never be offended by other people's views?
Do you ever keep your opinions to yourself?
Great post. I think this forum works best when people *do* share their opinions. Do you agree?
Thanks.
I do agree - But why are your opinions constantly so accusatory ?
I believe ones views on this subject, which has been enlarged to encompass multiculturalism and standards, stems in part from where you live and what you have endured in the past.
As one who was raised in Charlton in the 1950s/60s, I lived in a predominately white area and issues around language barriers and differing culture such as we face today were not on the radar. Charlton today (and I return regularly for the football) is a vastly different place to that in which I was raised. I now live in a lovely middle class market town in Bucks, predominately white. As a throwaway line, I have for over 30 years,and still do, financially support a charity for non-white people. I like to think that that makes me non-racist.
However, London apart, I don't believe multiculturalism works in the UK. Non indigenous people arrive on our shores and understandable graduate to areas that are already populated by their kith and kin. This situation creates a mini class of the country from which they have just left - for Leicester, rename India; Bradford, Pakistan; East London, Bangladesh etc. Such areas are then turned into the slum areas from which the same people originated. This to me is the reality of life in some parts of the UK and it is not a situation that I think benefits that many people. To me, multiculturalism simply doesn't work in the UK. In the USA it is fine because many different cultures emigrated to the USA at the same time and thus no single engrained culture was under a challenge (ignoring the Native American issue which was not a single culture).
Younger members of Charlton Life living in SE London today may well know of no different culture to that they experience today. Therefore their views may be shaped by the situation they find themselves in and may be diametrically different to my views expressed above.
Very interesting views.
One thing that I think marks someone out as not being a racist is avoiding phrases like
"I don't believe multiculturalism works"
"non indigenous people arrive on our shores"
"for Leicester, rename India. Bradford, Pakistan. East London, Bangladesh etc"
"...the slum from which the same people originated"
"To me, multiculturalism simply doesn't work in the UK"
And another thing that, for me, really marks out someone as not being a racist is (1) supporting a charity without reference to the colour of the people it benefits and (2) keeping quiet about it.
You constantly post on here like some righteous crusader
Are you able to never be offended by other people's views?
Do you ever keep your opinions to yourself?
Great post. I think this forum works best when people *do* share their opinions. Do you agree?
Thanks.
I do agree - But why are your opinions constantly so accusatory ?
What do you do if someone says something you hate? If someone expresses an opinion that is totally opposed to what you fundamentally believe is right and proper?
For me, if someone says something - here, or in real life, at The Valley, in the pub, at work, or somewhere else - that is (deliberately or carelessly) expressing an opinion that I find abhorrent, offensive, dangerous or just "wrong", I have to speak up. Sometimes I get people to re-think their position; sometimes I don't. But, if someone expresses something that is so far set against the things that I consider to be really important, I am going to say something.
I think this conversation (between you and me) is a really interesting one, but it might bore other people rigid, so I will stop now. But I can't, won't and shouldn't apologise for speaking out against those things that I believe are wrong. And, if you disagree with me, I hope you'll say so!
Comments
I think people should speak English in England other people don't care, all there is to it.
I would never have guessed that Nepalese would be the most spoken foreign language in the London Borough of Greenwich, you really do learn something new every day!
With regard to UK Expats, I have been travelling to Hong Kong and Singapore for years and have never met a British Expat with more than a handful of words in Cantonese or Mandarin, they speak English with each other and to the locals. There may be a handful who can speak the local language but they are in the minority.
Interestingly, I once had a conversation with a high-level executive from a major Chinese firm that has a global footprint and where English is the Lingua Franca (even at their HQ in China), and he said the Chinese preferred to speak English and did not want the westerners to learn Chinese. Why?
"Because if we know your language we can know you and understand how you think, if you don't know our language then you can never really know us or how or what we think - and that gives us a big advantage over you."
Can you even speak a second language? Are you aware of the effort it can take it think through everything you want to say in your head before you say it? Of course if I was fluent in Chinese it would be easier, but I'm not. By your logic should I even be learning Mandarin? What about the local dialect? Should I be focusing on kunminghua?
By your rules, am I even allowed to post in English?
大笨蛋
Example, I was at work putting some sockets on in a kitchen. I turned all the power off and had 'warning do not touch' signs on the fuse board. I told everyone in the house not to turn any power on.
One of the people I told was a polish cleaner who nodded at me when I told him. Just as i finished the first socket I heard the Hoover going. The polish cleaner had turned the power on and when I questioned him he was just waving his hands. He didn't have a scooby what I'd told him. This could have potentially caused serious harm to myself if I had taken a minute longer to finish what I was doing.
Sorry for the waffle but I think that it's quite good back up for the point that I originally made.
The Queen does not speak the same as her grandsons (or like she did 60 years ago) and the 4 lads that got on my train at Grove Park spoke a form of English quite different from mine.
May be the world should speak English with a South East London 1970's dialect.
You could have spent the time you used to post about it in here to fire off an e-mail to Tesco I suppose? That might actually change something...
Possibly, but I'd forgotten all about the incident until I saw this thread and just thought I'd share the story as it was linked to the topic.
Why waste your time explaining , you should be sending an email to Tescos ....
No I don't speak another language but I don't feel the need to as I live in England. I know a bit of Spanish but that's as far as it goes.
I know it would be very hard to learn a different language. I am sorry that you won't learn Chinese.
It's a site full of English people focused on an English club and you can speak English so to answer your witty question, yeah I suppose you can?
You haven't read my post properly have you? In my scenario (that's happened a few times) the person behind the till can also speak fluent English but then switches to speak their own language to people that also can speak English but are choosing not to.
As one who was raised in Charlton in the 1950s/60s, I lived in a predominately white area and issues around language barriers and differing culture such as we face today were not on the radar. Charlton today (and I return regularly for the football) is a vastly different place to that in which I was raised. I now live in a lovely middle class market town in Bucks, predominately white. As a throwaway line, I have for over 30 years,and still do, financially support a charity for non-white people. I like to think that that makes me non-racist.
However, London apart, I don't believe multiculturalism works in the UK. Non indigenous people arrive on our shores and understandable graduate to areas that are already populated by their kith and kin. This situation creates a mini class of the country from which they have just left - for Leicester, rename India; Bradford, Pakistan; East London, Bangladesh etc. Such areas are then turned into the slum areas from which the same people originated. This to me is the reality of life in some parts of the UK and it is not a situation that I think benefits that many people. To me, multiculturalism simply doesn't work in the UK. In the USA it is fine because many different cultures emigrated to the USA at the same time and thus no single engrained culture was under a challenge (ignoring the Native American issue which was not a single culture).
Younger members of Charlton Life living in SE London today may well know of no different culture to that they experience today. Therefore their views may be shaped by the situation they find themselves in and may be diametrically different to my views expressed above.
One thing that I think marks someone out as not being a racist is avoiding phrases like
"I don't believe multiculturalism works"
"non indigenous people arrive on our shores"
"for Leicester, rename India. Bradford, Pakistan. East London, Bangladesh etc"
"...the slum from which the same people originated"
"To me, multiculturalism simply doesn't work in the UK"
And another thing that, for me, really marks out someone as not being a racist is (1) supporting a charity without reference to the colour of the people it benefits and (2) keeping quiet about it.
Myself and my wife spent 5 years learning French before we moved there and both of us had a far better level than most of those ex-pats who thought they could speak it just because they could order a beer and a coffee. But there was still no way we could converse with each other all day, every day, in French. And nor would we want to as it's actually flipping exhausting dealing with everyone else in their language all day without trying to remember the phrase for "put the kettle on love I'm gasping..." at 9:00 pm when there's not another French speaker within 500m of us. Try it for yourself and you'll realise what you're proposing is laughably unreasonable.
Why are you always so offended by other people's views?
Do you ever keep your opinions to yourself?
What he's saying is that just because there are obvious situations where he needs to speak it in his daily life, when he's with English-speaking people there, he speaks English. As do all the English ex-pats who live, work and socialise with my mum.
Seems to me patently obvious that you would speak your native tongue when with people who share it. What most people appear to have a problem with is large numbers of people in the same area who don't speak English as their main language, which is a completely different argument.
I do agree - But why are your opinions constantly so accusatory ?
For me, if someone says something - here, or in real life, at The Valley, in the pub, at work, or somewhere else - that is (deliberately or carelessly) expressing an opinion that I find abhorrent, offensive, dangerous or just "wrong", I have to speak up. Sometimes I get people to re-think their position; sometimes I don't. But, if someone expresses something that is so far set against the things that I consider to be really important, I am going to say something.
I think this conversation (between you and me) is a really interesting one, but it might bore other people rigid, so I will stop now. But I can't, won't and shouldn't apologise for speaking out against those things that I believe are wrong. And, if you disagree with me, I hope you'll say so!
Up the Addicks!