I believe ones views on this subject, which has been enlarged to encompass multiculturalism and standards, stems in part from where you live and what you have endured in the past.
As one who was raised in Charlton in the 1950s/60s, I lived in a predominately white area and issues around language barriers and differing culture such as we face today were not on the radar. Charlton today (and I return regularly for the football) is a vastly different place to that in which I was raised. I now live in a lovely middle class market town in Bucks, predominately white. As a throwaway line, I have for over 30 years,and still do, financially support a charity for non-white people. I like to think that that makes me non-racist.
However, London apart, I don't believe multiculturalism works in the UK. Non indigenous people arrive on our shores and understandable graduate to areas that are already populated by their kith and kin. This situation creates a mini class of the country from which they have just left - for Leicester, rename India; Bradford, Pakistan; East London, Bangladesh etc. Such areas are then turned into the slum areas from which the same people originated. This to me is the reality of life in some parts of the UK and it is not a situation that I think benefits that many people. To me, multiculturalism simply doesn't work in the UK. In the USA it is fine because many different cultures emigrated to the USA at the same time and thus no single engrained culture was under a challenge (ignoring the Native American issue which was not a single culture).
Younger members of Charlton Life living in SE London today may well know of no different culture to that they experience today. Therefore their views may be shaped by the situation they find themselves in and may be diametrically different to my views expressed above.
I believe ones views on this subject, which has been enlarged to encompass multiculturalism and standards, stems in part from where you live and what you have endured in the past.
As one who was raised in Charlton in the 1950s/60s, I lived in a predominately white area and issues around language barriers and differing culture such as we face today were not on the radar. Charlton today (and I return regularly for the football) is a vastly different place to that in which I was raised. I now live in a lovely middle class market town in Bucks, predominately white. As a throwaway line, I have for over 30 years,and still do, financially support a charity for non-white people. I like to think that that makes me non-racist.
However, London apart, I don't believe multiculturalism works in the UK. Non indigenous people arrive on our shores and understandable graduate to areas that are already populated by their kith and kin. This situation creates a mini class of the country from which they have just left - for Leicester, rename India; Bradford, Pakistan; East London, Bangladesh etc. Such areas are then turned into the slum areas from which the same people originated. This to me is the reality of life in some parts of the UK and it is not a situation that I think benefits that many people. To me, multiculturalism simply doesn't work in the UK. In the USA it is fine because many different cultures emigrated to the USA at the same time and thus no single engrained culture was under a challenge (ignoring the Native American issue which was not a single culture).
Younger members of Charlton Life living in SE London today may well know of no different culture to that they experience today. Therefore their views may be shaped by the situation they find themselves in and may be diametrically different to my views expressed above.
Very interesting views.
One thing that I think marks someone out as not being a racist is avoiding phrases like
"I don't believe multiculturalism works"
"non indigenous people arrive on our shores"
"for Leicester, rename India. Bradford, Pakistan. East London, Bangladesh etc"
"...the slum from which the same people originated"
"To me, multiculturalism simply doesn't work in the UK"
And another thing that, for me, really marks out someone as not being a racist is (1) supporting a charity without reference to the colour of the people it benefits and (2) keeping quiet about it.
You constantly post on here like some righteous crusader
Are you able to never be offended by other people's views?
Do you ever keep your opinions to yourself?
Great post. I think this forum works best when people *do* share their opinions. Do you agree?
Thanks.
I do agree - But why are your opinions constantly so accusatory ?
What do you do if someone says something you hate? If someone expresses an opinion that is totally opposed to what you fundamentally believe is right and proper?
For me, if someone says something - here, or in real life, at The Valley, in the pub, at work, or somewhere else - that is (deliberately or carelessly) expressing an opinion that I find abhorrent, offensive, dangerous or just "wrong", I have to speak up. Sometimes I get people to re-think their position; sometimes I don't. But, if someone expresses something that is so far set against the things that I consider to be really important, I am going to say something.
I think this conversation (between you and me) is a really interesting one, but it might bore other people rigid, so I will stop now. But I can't, won't and shouldn't apologise for speaking out against those things that I believe are wrong. And, if you disagree with me, I hope you'll say so!
Up the Addicks!
Nothing wrong with that Chizz at all, but the question you asked earlier in the thread, to which i called a bit muggy, was almost trying to create an offence rather than one that was already there.
I believe ones views on this subject, which has been enlarged to encompass multiculturalism and standards, stems in part from where you live and what you have endured in the past.
As one who was raised in Charlton in the 1950s/60s, I lived in a predominately white area and issues around language barriers and differing culture such as we face today were not on the radar. Charlton today (and I return regularly for the football) is a vastly different place to that in which I was raised. I now live in a lovely middle class market town in Bucks, predominately white. As a throwaway line, I have for over 30 years,and still do, financially support a charity for non-white people. I like to think that that makes me non-racist.
However, London apart, I don't believe multiculturalism works in the UK. Non indigenous people arrive on our shores and understandable graduate to areas that are already populated by their kith and kin. This situation creates a mini class of the country from which they have just left - for Leicester, rename India; Bradford, Pakistan; East London, Bangladesh etc. Such areas are then turned into the slum areas from which the same people originated. This to me is the reality of life in some parts of the UK and it is not a situation that I think benefits that many people. To me, multiculturalism simply doesn't work in the UK. In the USA it is fine because many different cultures emigrated to the USA at the same time and thus no single engrained culture was under a challenge (ignoring the Native American issue which was not a single culture).
Younger members of Charlton Life living in SE London today may well know of no different culture to that they experience today. Therefore their views may be shaped by the situation they find themselves in and may be diametrically different to my views expressed above.
Very interesting views.
One thing that I think marks someone out as not being a racist is avoiding phrases like
"I don't believe multiculturalism works"
"non indigenous people arrive on our shores"
"for Leicester, rename India. Bradford, Pakistan. East London, Bangladesh etc"
"...the slum from which the same people originated"
"To me, multiculturalism simply doesn't work in the UK"
And another thing that, for me, really marks out someone as not being a racist is (1) supporting a charity without reference to the colour of the people it benefits and (2) keeping quiet about it.
You constantly post on here like some righteous crusader
Are you able to never be offended by other people's views?
Do you ever keep your opinions to yourself?
Great post. I think this forum works best when people *do* share their opinions. Do you agree?
Thanks.
I do agree - But why are your opinions constantly so accusatory ?
What do you do if someone says something you hate? If someone expresses an opinion that is totally opposed to what you fundamentally believe is right and proper?
For me, if someone says something - here, or in real life, at The Valley, in the pub, at work, or somewhere else - that is (deliberately or carelessly) expressing an opinion that I find abhorrent, offensive, dangerous or just "wrong", I have to speak up. Sometimes I get people to re-think their position; sometimes I don't. But, if someone expresses something that is so far set against the things that I consider to be really important, I am going to say something.
I think this conversation (between you and me) is a really interesting one, but it might bore other people rigid, so I will stop now. But I can't, won't and shouldn't apologise for speaking out against those things that I believe are wrong. And, if you disagree with me, I hope you'll say so!
Up the Addicks!
Nothing wrong with that Chizz at all, but the question you asked earlier in the thread, to which i called a bit muggy, was almost trying to create an offence rather than one that was already there.
You're right. It was a clumsy way of trying to work out whether someone was more upset that the person was rude (which I think they have every right to be) or that they were foreign (which is wrong).
I should have phrased it better. I got that one wrong.
I believe ones views on this subject, which has been enlarged to encompass multiculturalism and standards, stems in part from where you live and what you have endured in the past.
As one who was raised in Charlton in the 1950s/60s, I lived in a predominately white area and issues around language barriers and differing culture such as we face today were not on the radar. Charlton today (and I return regularly for the football) is a vastly different place to that in which I was raised. I now live in a lovely middle class market town in Bucks, predominately white. As a throwaway line, I have for over 30 years,and still do, financially support a charity for non-white people. I like to think that that makes me non-racist.
However, London apart, I don't believe multiculturalism works in the UK. Non indigenous people arrive on our shores and understandable graduate to areas that are already populated by their kith and kin. This situation creates a mini class of the country from which they have just left - for Leicester, rename India; Bradford, Pakistan; East London, Bangladesh etc. Such areas are then turned into the slum areas from which the same people originated. This to me is the reality of life in some parts of the UK and it is not a situation that I think benefits that many people. To me, multiculturalism simply doesn't work in the UK. In the USA it is fine because many different cultures emigrated to the USA at the same time and thus no single engrained culture was under a challenge (ignoring the Native American issue which was not a single culture).
Younger members of Charlton Life living in SE London today may well know of no different culture to that they experience today. Therefore their views may be shaped by the situation they find themselves in and may be diametrically different to my views expressed above.
Very interesting views.
One thing that I think marks someone out as not being a racist is avoiding phrases like
"I don't believe multiculturalism works"
"non indigenous people arrive on our shores"
"for Leicester, rename India. Bradford, Pakistan. East London, Bangladesh etc"
"...the slum from which the same people originated"
"To me, multiculturalism simply doesn't work in the UK"
And another thing that, for me, really marks out someone as not being a racist is (1) supporting a charity without reference to the colour of the people it benefits and (2) keeping quiet about it.
You constantly post on here like some righteous crusader
Are you able to never be offended by other people's views?
Do you ever keep your opinions to yourself?
Great post. I think this forum works best when people *do* share their opinions. Do you agree?
Thanks.
I do agree - But why are your opinions constantly so accusatory ?
What do you do if someone says something you hate? If someone expresses an opinion that is totally opposed to what you fundamentally believe is right and proper?
For me, if someone says something - here, or in real life, at The Valley, in the pub, at work, or somewhere else - that is (deliberately or carelessly) expressing an opinion that I find abhorrent, offensive, dangerous or just "wrong", I have to speak up. Sometimes I get people to re-think their position; sometimes I don't. But, if someone expresses something that is so far set against the things that I consider to be really important, I am going to say something.
I think this conversation (between you and me) is a really interesting one, but it might bore other people rigid, so I will stop now. But I can't, won't and shouldn't apologise for speaking out against those things that I believe are wrong. And, if you disagree with me, I hope you'll say so!
Up the Addicks!
I agree with you up to a point Chizz - but I personally wouldn't make a snap decision on someone based upon a few lines in a football forum.
I find your tone to be overtly accusatory at times and think this could rarely lead to you getting people to "re-think their position" in this environment.
So you don't think that peoples views are shaped by the era and circumstance in which they were brought up, which was the main point I was making?
I don't see multiculturalism working outside of London for the reasons I stated. My daughter lives in Leicester and has done so for many years, so I see the impact of multiculturalism on that city.
I have just calculated that I have donated some £9k (30 years at £26pm) on non Caucasian charities in my lifetime. First, donating to the upbringing of a native American child (Oglala Sioux) and latterly donating each month to a charity in India undertaking cataract operations.
If my views on the subject of multiculturalism offend some people then I am happy to hear contrary views and debate the subject. Stating "Effin hell" etc is not very helpful.
Probably get a ban knowing how sensitive this forum can be but some of these posts are ridiculous.
It's sad that it's even a possibility that the majority of any London Borough may have English as it's second language. Just isn't acceptable.
I don't have a problem with people speaking in their own language when they visit the country, I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
So you should only be allowed to live in the country if English is your first language?
Don't think I said that, I'm saying that if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try. If people don't then I'll just rollover as that's what we're good as a country at doing now.
But this survey - which prompted this thread - was based on information as to languages other than English which are spoken, that doesn't mean they can't speak English too.
I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
But why? Are you worried they're talking about you or something?
I've lived in a few countries and can't say I've ever seen British expats walking around speaking the local tongue to each other. If it's all of a sudden such a cornerstone of British manners...
No not really, but it is a bit annoying when you get served on a till by someone speaking English only to turn to their mates and speak in their own language, what's the need. I've got lots of friends who were not born here or their parents migrated before they were born yet they always speak English and never decide to suddenly flip between the languages when we're out.
Why does it bother you ? In you first post you've said "if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try" - in your hypothetical shop example they've done just that, and addressed you in English because you can't speak another language.
Because I live in England and so do they? Why would I or they address me in any other language? Are you for real?
But they didn't, they spoke to you in English as per your request. Are you saying that any conversation held in your presence - even one not involving you - must be conducted in English ?
Misunderstood sorry.
It shouldn't be a request, they work in a shop in England so it should be a given to speak English, so you can't really refer to it as a request can you. Request the complete wrong word.
I don't think they should then turn to their mates and speak another language if they've clearly just spoke English to me.
So if you moved to Spain and learnt the language so you could communicate with Spanish speakers you would not converse in English with other ex pats? Really?
Yes, if I can speak the language and if people could around me my why wouldn't I. I'd only go back to English if I had to speak to a English person visiting that could only speak English.
You're talking bollocks. Whilst in China I've tried to learn the language, I - try - to speak to my mother in law in Chinese, I have non English speaking friends, with whom I obviously speak Chinese, after a long day at work I get home, grab a beer and relax on huge sofa, do you know what language I speak? Not bloody Chinese.
Can you even speak a second language? Are you aware of the effort it can take it think through everything you want to say in your head before you say it? Of course if I was fluent in Chinese it would be easier, but I'm not. By your logic should I even be learning Mandarin? What about the local dialect? Should I be focusing on kunminghua?
By your rules, am I even allowed to post in English?
太笨蛋
Why would I lie? I would definitely try to learn the language of another country if I lived there and would eventually.
No I don't speak another language but I don't feel the need to as I live in England. I know a bit of Spanish but that's as far as it goes.
I know it would be very hard to learn a different language. I am sorry that you won't learn Chinese.
It's a site full of English people focused on an English club and you can speak English so to answer your witty question, yeah I suppose you can?
You haven't read my post properly have you? In my scenario (that's happened a few times) the person behind the till can also speak fluent English but then switches to speak their own language to people that also can speak English but are choosing not to.
I think it's you who doesn't understand. He (Stu) is teaching in China. He has also stated that he DOES speak (Mandarin, I believe - there's no such thing as 'Chinese')
What he's saying is that just because there are obvious situations where he needs to speak it in his daily life, when he's with English-speaking people there, he speaks English. As do all the English ex-pats who live, work and socialise with my mum.
Seems to me patently obvious that you would speak your native tongue when with people who share it. What most people appear to have a problem with is large numbers of people in the same area who don't speak English as their main language, which is a completely different argument.
I thought he meant he lived in China but was back in England.
Like I said before, It's a lot simpler than people are making out. I don't like people speaking their own foreign language in England. It's an opinion and it's not offensive in the slightest so I don't get why I've been quoted so much.
Probably get a ban knowing how sensitive this forum can be but some of these posts are ridiculous.
It's sad that it's even a possibility that the majority of any London Borough may have English as it's second language. Just isn't acceptable.
I don't have a problem with people speaking in their own language when they visit the country, I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
So you should only be allowed to live in the country if English is your first language?
Don't think I said that, I'm saying that if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try. If people don't then I'll just rollover as that's what we're good as a country at doing now.
But this survey - which prompted this thread - was based on information as to languages other than English which are spoken, that doesn't mean they can't speak English too.
I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
But why? Are you worried they're talking about you or something?
I've lived in a few countries and can't say I've ever seen British expats walking around speaking the local tongue to each other. If it's all of a sudden such a cornerstone of British manners...
No not really, but it is a bit annoying when you get served on a till by someone speaking English only to turn to their mates and speak in their own language, what's the need. I've got lots of friends who were not born here or their parents migrated before they were born yet they always speak English and never decide to suddenly flip between the languages when we're out.
Why does it bother you ? In you first post you've said "if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try" - in your hypothetical shop example they've done just that, and addressed you in English because you can't speak another language.
Because I live in England and so do they? Why would I or they address me in any other language? Are you for real?
But they didn't, they spoke to you in English as per your request. Are you saying that any conversation held in your presence - even one not involving you - must be conducted in English ?
Misunderstood sorry.
It shouldn't be a request, they work in a shop in England so it should be a given to speak English, so you can't really refer to it as a request can you. Request the complete wrong word.
I don't think they should then turn to their mates and speak another language if they've clearly just spoke English to me.
So if you moved to Spain and learnt the language so you could communicate with Spanish speakers you would not converse in English with other ex pats? Really?
Yes, if I can speak the language and if people could around me my why wouldn't I. I'd only go back to English if I had to speak to a English person visiting that could only speak English.
You're talking bollocks. Whilst in China I've tried to learn the language, I - try - to speak to my mother in law in Chinese, I have non English speaking friends, with whom I obviously speak Chinese, after a long day at work I get home, grab a beer and relax on huge sofa, do you know what language I speak? Not bloody Chinese.
Can you even speak a second language? Are you aware of the effort it can take it think through everything you want to say in your head before you say it? Of course if I was fluent in Chinese it would be easier, but I'm not. By your logic should I even be learning Mandarin? What about the local dialect? Should I be focusing on kunminghua?
By your rules, am I even allowed to post in English?
太笨蛋
Why would I lie? I would definitely try to learn the language of another country if I lived there and would eventually.
No I don't speak another language but I don't feel the need to as I live in England. I know a bit of Spanish but that's as far as it goes.
I know it would be very hard to learn a different language. I am sorry that you won't learn Chinese.
It's a site full of English people focused on an English club and you can speak English so to answer your witty question, yeah I suppose you can?
You haven't read my post properly have you? In my scenario (that's happened a few times) the person behind the till can also speak fluent English but then switches to speak their own language to people that also can speak English but are choosing not to.
I think it's you who doesn't understand. He (Stu) is teaching in China. He has also stated that he DOES speak (Mandarin, I believe - there's no such thing as 'Chinese')
What he's saying is that just because there are obvious situations where he needs to speak it in his daily life, when he's with English-speaking people there, he speaks English. As do all the English ex-pats who live, work and socialise with my mum.
Seems to me patently obvious that you would speak your native tongue when with people who share it. What most people appear to have a problem with is large numbers of people in the same area who don't speak English as their main language, which is a completely different argument.
I thought he meant he lived in China but was back in England.
Like I said before, It's a lot simpler than people are making out. I don't like people speaking their own foreign language in England. It's an opinion and it's not offensive in the slightest so I don't get why I've been quoted so much.
What's your position on the language that Katrien, Roland and Bob should speak, when they're talking to each other at The Valley?
Probably get a ban knowing how sensitive this forum can be but some of these posts are ridiculous.
It's sad that it's even a possibility that the majority of any London Borough may have English as it's second language. Just isn't acceptable.
I don't have a problem with people speaking in their own language when they visit the country, I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
So you should only be allowed to live in the country if English is your first language?
Don't think I said that, I'm saying that if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try. If people don't then I'll just rollover as that's what we're good as a country at doing now.
But this survey - which prompted this thread - was based on information as to languages other than English which are spoken, that doesn't mean they can't speak English too.
I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
But why? Are you worried they're talking about you or something?
I've lived in a few countries and can't say I've ever seen British expats walking around speaking the local tongue to each other. If it's all of a sudden such a cornerstone of British manners...
No not really, but it is a bit annoying when you get served on a till by someone speaking English only to turn to their mates and speak in their own language, what's the need. I've got lots of friends who were not born here or their parents migrated before they were born yet they always speak English and never decide to suddenly flip between the languages when we're out.
Why does it bother you ? In you first post you've said "if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try" - in your hypothetical shop example they've done just that, and addressed you in English because you can't speak another language.
Because I live in England and so do they? Why would I or they address me in any other language? Are you for real?
But they didn't, they spoke to you in English as per your request. Are you saying that any conversation held in your presence - even one not involving you - must be conducted in English ?
Misunderstood sorry.
It shouldn't be a request, they work in a shop in England so it should be a given to speak English, so you can't really refer to it as a request can you. Request the complete wrong word.
I don't think they should then turn to their mates and speak another language if they've clearly just spoke English to me.
So if you moved to Spain and learnt the language so you could communicate with Spanish speakers you would not converse in English with other ex pats? Really?
Yes, if I can speak the language and if people could around me my why wouldn't I. I'd only go back to English if I had to speak to a English person visiting that could only speak English.
You're talking bollocks. Whilst in China I've tried to learn the language, I - try - to speak to my mother in law in Chinese, I have non English speaking friends, with whom I obviously speak Chinese, after a long day at work I get home, grab a beer and relax on huge sofa, do you know what language I speak? Not bloody Chinese.
Can you even speak a second language? Are you aware of the effort it can take it think through everything you want to say in your head before you say it? Of course if I was fluent in Chinese it would be easier, but I'm not. By your logic should I even be learning Mandarin? What about the local dialect? Should I be focusing on kunminghua?
By your rules, am I even allowed to post in English?
太笨蛋
Why would I lie? I would definitely try to learn the language of another country if I lived there and would eventually.
No I don't speak another language but I don't feel the need to as I live in England. I know a bit of Spanish but that's as far as it goes.
I know it would be very hard to learn a different language. I am sorry that you won't learn Chinese.
It's a site full of English people focused on an English club and you can speak English so to answer your witty question, yeah I suppose you can?
You haven't read my post properly have you? In my scenario (that's happened a few times) the person behind the till can also speak fluent English but then switches to speak their own language to people that also can speak English but are choosing not to.
I think it's you who doesn't understand. He (Stu) is teaching in China. He has also stated that he DOES speak (Mandarin, I believe - there's no such thing as 'Chinese')
What he's saying is that just because there are obvious situations where he needs to speak it in his daily life, when he's with English-speaking people there, he speaks English. As do all the English ex-pats who live, work and socialise with my mum.
Seems to me patently obvious that you would speak your native tongue when with people who share it. What most people appear to have a problem with is large numbers of people in the same area who don't speak English as their main language, which is a completely different argument.
I thought he meant he lived in China but was back in England.
Like I said before, It's a lot simpler than people are making out. I don't like people speaking their own foreign language in England. It's an opinion and it's not offensive in the slightest so I don't get why I've been quoted so much.
What's your position on the language that Katrien, Roland and Bob should speak, when they're at The Valley?
Bob has already stated he and the players speak English. Its Rolands bat and ball so I think he can please his self. My self, it dosen't bother me at all.
Probably get a ban knowing how sensitive this forum can be but some of these posts are ridiculous.
It's sad that it's even a possibility that the majority of any London Borough may have English as it's second language. Just isn't acceptable.
I don't have a problem with people speaking in their own language when they visit the country, I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
So you should only be allowed to live in the country if English is your first language?
Don't think I said that, I'm saying that if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try. If people don't then I'll just rollover as that's what we're good as a country at doing now.
But this survey - which prompted this thread - was based on information as to languages other than English which are spoken, that doesn't mean they can't speak English too.
I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
But why? Are you worried they're talking about you or something?
I've lived in a few countries and can't say I've ever seen British expats walking around speaking the local tongue to each other. If it's all of a sudden such a cornerstone of British manners...
No not really, but it is a bit annoying when you get served on a till by someone speaking English only to turn to their mates and speak in their own language, what's the need. I've got lots of friends who were not born here or their parents migrated before they were born yet they always speak English and never decide to suddenly flip between the languages when we're out.
Why does it bother you ? In you first post you've said "if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try" - in your hypothetical shop example they've done just that, and addressed you in English because you can't speak another language.
Because I live in England and so do they? Why would I or they address me in any other language? Are you for real?
But they didn't, they spoke to you in English as per your request. Are you saying that any conversation held in your presence - even one not involving you - must be conducted in English ?
Misunderstood sorry.
It shouldn't be a request, they work in a shop in England so it should be a given to speak English, so you can't really refer to it as a request can you. Request the complete wrong word.
I don't think they should then turn to their mates and speak another language if they've clearly just spoke English to me.
So if you moved to Spain and learnt the language so you could communicate with Spanish speakers you would not converse in English with other ex pats? Really?
Yes, if I can speak the language and if people could around me my why wouldn't I. I'd only go back to English if I had to speak to a English person visiting that could only speak English.
You're talking bollocks. Whilst in China I've tried to learn the language, I - try - to speak to my mother in law in Chinese, I have non English speaking friends, with whom I obviously speak Chinese, after a long day at work I get home, grab a beer and relax on huge sofa, do you know what language I speak? Not bloody Chinese.
Can you even speak a second language? Are you aware of the effort it can take it think through everything you want to say in your head before you say it? Of course if I was fluent in Chinese it would be easier, but I'm not. By your logic should I even be learning Mandarin? What about the local dialect? Should I be focusing on kunminghua?
By your rules, am I even allowed to post in English?
太笨蛋
Why would I lie? I would definitely try to learn the language of another country if I lived there and would eventually.
No I don't speak another language but I don't feel the need to as I live in England. I know a bit of Spanish but that's as far as it goes.
I know it would be very hard to learn a different language. I am sorry that you won't learn Chinese.
It's a site full of English people focused on an English club and you can speak English so to answer your witty question, yeah I suppose you can?
You haven't read my post properly have you? In my scenario (that's happened a few times) the person behind the till can also speak fluent English but then switches to speak their own language to people that also can speak English but are choosing not to.
I think it's you who doesn't understand. He (Stu) is teaching in China. He has also stated that he DOES speak (Mandarin, I believe - there's no such thing as 'Chinese')
What he's saying is that just because there are obvious situations where he needs to speak it in his daily life, when he's with English-speaking people there, he speaks English. As do all the English ex-pats who live, work and socialise with my mum.
Seems to me patently obvious that you would speak your native tongue when with people who share it. What most people appear to have a problem with is large numbers of people in the same area who don't speak English as their main language, which is a completely different argument.
I thought he meant he lived in China but was back in England.
Like I said before, It's a lot simpler than people are making out. I don't like people speaking their own foreign language in England. It's an opinion and it's not offensive in the slightest so I don't get why I've been quoted so much.
What's your position on the language that Katrien, Roland and Bob should speak, when they're at The Valley?
Well I doubt they communicate in their own language infront of English staff and isolate them. If they do it out of earshot of English people I don't really care I guess. Would prefer them to speak English but if they do their best to interact in English generally then I'm not fussed.
Probably get a ban knowing how sensitive this forum can be but some of these posts are ridiculous.
It's sad that it's even a possibility that the majority of any London Borough may have English as it's second language. Just isn't acceptable.
I don't have a problem with people speaking in their own language when they visit the country, I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
So you should only be allowed to live in the country if English is your first language?
Don't think I said that, I'm saying that if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try. If people don't then I'll just rollover as that's what we're good as a country at doing now.
But this survey - which prompted this thread - was based on information as to languages other than English which are spoken, that doesn't mean they can't speak English too.
I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
But why? Are you worried they're talking about you or something?
I've lived in a few countries and can't say I've ever seen British expats walking around speaking the local tongue to each other. If it's all of a sudden such a cornerstone of British manners...
No not really, but it is a bit annoying when you get served on a till by someone speaking English only to turn to their mates and speak in their own language, what's the need. I've got lots of friends who were not born here or their parents migrated before they were born yet they always speak English and never decide to suddenly flip between the languages when we're out.
Why does it bother you ? In you first post you've said "if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try" - in your hypothetical shop example they've done just that, and addressed you in English because you can't speak another language.
Because I live in England and so do they? Why would I or they address me in any other language? Are you for real?
But they didn't, they spoke to you in English as per your request. Are you saying that any conversation held in your presence - even one not involving you - must be conducted in English ?
Misunderstood sorry.
It shouldn't be a request, they work in a shop in England so it should be a given to speak English, so you can't really refer to it as a request can you. Request the complete wrong word.
I don't think they should then turn to their mates and speak another language if they've clearly just spoke English to me.
So if you moved to Spain and learnt the language so you could communicate with Spanish speakers you would not converse in English with other ex pats? Really?
Yes, if I can speak the language and if people could around me my why wouldn't I. I'd only go back to English if I had to speak to a English person visiting that could only speak English.
You're talking bollocks. Whilst in China I've tried to learn the language, I - try - to speak to my mother in law in Chinese, I have non English speaking friends, with whom I obviously speak Chinese, after a long day at work I get home, grab a beer and relax on huge sofa, do you know what language I speak? Not bloody Chinese.
Can you even speak a second language? Are you aware of the effort it can take it think through everything you want to say in your head before you say it? Of course if I was fluent in Chinese it would be easier, but I'm not. By your logic should I even be learning Mandarin? What about the local dialect? Should I be focusing on kunminghua?
By your rules, am I even allowed to post in English?
太笨蛋
Why would I lie? I would definitely try to learn the language of another country if I lived there and would eventually.
No I don't speak another language but I don't feel the need to as I live in England. I know a bit of Spanish but that's as far as it goes.
I know it would be very hard to learn a different language. I am sorry that you won't learn Chinese.
It's a site full of English people focused on an English club and you can speak English so to answer your witty question, yeah I suppose you can?
You haven't read my post properly have you? In my scenario (that's happened a few times) the person behind the till can also speak fluent English but then switches to speak their own language to people that also can speak English but are choosing not to.
I think it's you who doesn't understand. He (Stu) is teaching in China. He has also stated that he DOES speak (Mandarin, I believe - there's no such thing as 'Chinese')
What he's saying is that just because there are obvious situations where he needs to speak it in his daily life, when he's with English-speaking people there, he speaks English. As do all the English ex-pats who live, work and socialise with my mum.
Seems to me patently obvious that you would speak your native tongue when with people who share it. What most people appear to have a problem with is large numbers of people in the same area who don't speak English as their main language, which is a completely different argument.
I thought he meant he lived in China but was back in England.
Like I said before, It's a lot simpler than people are making out. I don't like people speaking their own foreign language in England. It's an opinion and it's not offensive in the slightest so I don't get why I've been quoted so much.
What's your position on the language that Katrien, Roland and Bob should speak, when they're at The Valley?
Well I doubt they communicate in their own language infront of English staff and isolate them. If they do it out of earshot of English people I don't really care I guess. Would prefer them to speak English but if they do their best to interact in English generally then I'm not fussed.
So you don't think that peoples views are shaped by the era and circumstance in which they were brought up, which was the main point I was making?
I don't see multiculturalism working outside of London for the reasons I stated. My daughter lives in Leicester and has done so for many years, so I see the impact of multiculturalism on that city.
I have just calculated that I have donated some £9k (30 years at £26pm) on non Caucasian charities in my lifetime. First, donating to the upbringing of a native American child (Oglala Sioux) and latterly donating each month to a charity in India undertaking cataract operations.
If my views on the subject of multiculturalism offend some people then I am happy to hear contrary views and debate the subject. Stating "Effin hell" etc is not very helpful.
I don't have the time or inclination to get involved in a lengthy and pointless debate but I will just say this.
Having been to the slums of both Dhaka and Karachi (not to mention Mumbai and Delhi) in recent years I don't see how anyone with any degree of seriousness could compare them to the standard of life in Leicester, Bradford or any other city with a large Asian population, it is totally over the top and utterly laughable.
Sure, Bradford is not the best place on earth, but you don't have people in Bradford living in abject poverty living on less than a dollar per day and having some of the lowest life expectancy rates in the world.
Quite frankly if you had the nerve to say to a British Asian from either of those towns what you have said on here - effectively that they and their families have turned those towns into being like the slums they came from in the sub-continent - then you would probably get a smack in the mouth. A fully deserved one.
Would you say to, lets say a poor white person from some desolate part of West Virginia, that they had successfully re-created the slum like and barely literate living conditions of their forebears from Scotland and Ulster? What do you think their response would be to that?
Probably get a ban knowing how sensitive this forum can be but some of these posts are ridiculous.
It's sad that it's even a possibility that the majority of any London Borough may have English as it's second language. Just isn't acceptable.
I don't have a problem with people speaking in their own language when they visit the country, I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
So you should only be allowed to live in the country if English is your first language?
Don't think I said that, I'm saying that if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try. If people don't then I'll just rollover as that's what we're good as a country at doing now.
But this survey - which prompted this thread - was based on information as to languages other than English which are spoken, that doesn't mean they can't speak English too.
I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
But why? Are you worried they're talking about you or something?
I've lived in a few countries and can't say I've ever seen British expats walking around speaking the local tongue to each other. If it's all of a sudden such a cornerstone of British manners...
No not really, but it is a bit annoying when you get served on a till by someone speaking English only to turn to their mates and speak in their own language, what's the need. I've got lots of friends who were not born here or their parents migrated before they were born yet they always speak English and never decide to suddenly flip between the languages when we're out.
Why does it bother you ? In you first post you've said "if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try" - in your hypothetical shop example they've done just that, and addressed you in English because you can't speak another language.
Because I live in England and so do they? Why would I or they address me in any other language? Are you for real?
But they didn't, they spoke to you in English as per your request. Are you saying that any conversation held in your presence - even one not involving you - must be conducted in English ?
Misunderstood sorry.
It shouldn't be a request, they work in a shop in England so it should be a given to speak English, so you can't really refer to it as a request can you. Request the complete wrong word.
I don't think they should then turn to their mates and speak another language if they've clearly just spoke English to me.
So if you moved to Spain and learnt the language so you could communicate with Spanish speakers you would not converse in English with other ex pats? Really?
Yes, if I can speak the language and if people could around me my why wouldn't I. I'd only go back to English if I had to speak to a English person visiting that could only speak English.
You're talking bollocks. Whilst in China I've tried to learn the language, I - try - to speak to my mother in law in Chinese, I have non English speaking friends, with whom I obviously speak Chinese, after a long day at work I get home, grab a beer and relax on huge sofa, do you know what language I speak? Not bloody Chinese.
Can you even speak a second language? Are you aware of the effort it can take it think through everything you want to say in your head before you say it? Of course if I was fluent in Chinese it would be easier, but I'm not. By your logic should I even be learning Mandarin? What about the local dialect? Should I be focusing on kunminghua?
By your rules, am I even allowed to post in English?
太笨蛋
Why would I lie? I would definitely try to learn the language of another country if I lived there and would eventually.
No I don't speak another language but I don't feel the need to as I live in England. I know a bit of Spanish but that's as far as it goes.
I know it would be very hard to learn a different language. I am sorry that you won't learn Chinese.
It's a site full of English people focused on an English club and you can speak English so to answer your witty question, yeah I suppose you can?
You haven't read my post properly have you? In my scenario (that's happened a few times) the person behind the till can also speak fluent English but then switches to speak their own language to people that also can speak English but are choosing not to.
I think it's you who doesn't understand. He (Stu) is teaching in China. He has also stated that he DOES speak (Mandarin, I believe - there's no such thing as 'Chinese')
What he's saying is that just because there are obvious situations where he needs to speak it in his daily life, when he's with English-speaking people there, he speaks English. As do all the English ex-pats who live, work and socialise with my mum.
Seems to me patently obvious that you would speak your native tongue when with people who share it. What most people appear to have a problem with is large numbers of people in the same area who don't speak English as their main language, which is a completely different argument.
I thought he meant he lived in China but was back in England.
Like I said before, It's a lot simpler than people are making out. I don't like people speaking their own foreign language in England. It's an opinion and it's not offensive in the slightest so I don't get why I've been quoted so much.
I also just got married and gave my speech in English and an American friend translated for me. I assume this is something you'd not approve of, especially as most of the guests where Chinese and a lot of them don't speak English. I speak to my wife in English all the time too.
Moving somewhere and just learning the language is not as simple as you make out, I try to learn but working a full time job and studying a language is difficult. Yes, I think people should make the effort to learn the language of the country they live in but to make it compulsory would be ridiculous, I'm moving to Malaysia in January, do I start again with studying? What about when I move after that.
I don't have the time or inclination to get involved in a lengthy and pointless debate but I will just say this.
Having been to the slums of both Dhaka and Karachi (not to mention Mumbai and Delhi) in recent years I don't see how anyone with any degree of seriousness could compare them to the standard of life in Leicester, Bradford or any other city with a large Asian population, it is totally over the top and utterly laughable.
Sure, Bradford is not the best place on earth, but you don't have people in Bradford living in abject poverty living on less than a dollar per day and having some of the lowest life expectancy rates in the world.
Quite frankly if you had the nerve to say to a British Asian from either of those towns what you have said on here - effectively that they and their families have turned those towns into being like the slums they came from in the sub-continent - then you would probably get a smack in the mouth. A fully deserved one.
Would you say to, lets say a poor white person from some desolate part of West Virginia, that they had successfully re-created the slum like and barely literate living conditions of their forebears from Scotland and Ulster? What do you think their response would be to that?
1. Ok, I concede that my use of the word "slum" should not have been used, but the areas I have quoted have changed beyond recognition from how they looked in the 50s/60s.
2. I was amused by your statement "I don't have the time or inclination etc", and then you go into such diatribe!
3. I have also travelled extensively (76 countries/islands at the last count, including New Delhi) and I do see many similarities between Leicester and Delhi.
4. I notice that you didn't mention, for the purpose of a balanced view, my financial contribution to the foreign cultures that I have mentioned.
5. Surely nobody can state that multiculturalism works in Leicester. There are only two cultures in that city, primarily Indian and secondly British.
Probably get a ban knowing how sensitive this forum can be but some of these posts are ridiculous.
It's sad that it's even a possibility that the majority of any London Borough may have English as it's second language. Just isn't acceptable.
I don't have a problem with people speaking in their own language when they visit the country, I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
So you should only be allowed to live in the country if English is your first language?
Don't think I said that, I'm saying that if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try. If people don't then I'll just rollover as that's what we're good as a country at doing now.
But this survey - which prompted this thread - was based on information as to languages other than English which are spoken, that doesn't mean they can't speak English too.
I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
But why? Are you worried they're talking about you or something?
I've lived in a few countries and can't say I've ever seen British expats walking around speaking the local tongue to each other. If it's all of a sudden such a cornerstone of British manners...
No not really, but it is a bit annoying when you get served on a till by someone speaking English only to turn to their mates and speak in their own language, what's the need. I've got lots of friends who were not born here or their parents migrated before they were born yet they always speak English and never decide to suddenly flip between the languages when we're out.
Why does it bother you ? In you first post you've said "if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try" - in your hypothetical shop example they've done just that, and addressed you in English because you can't speak another language.
Because I live in England and so do they? Why would I or they address me in any other language? Are you for real?
But they didn't, they spoke to you in English as per your request. Are you saying that any conversation held in your presence - even one not involving you - must be conducted in English ?
Misunderstood sorry.
It shouldn't be a request, they work in a shop in England so it should be a given to speak English, so you can't really refer to it as a request can you. Request the complete wrong word.
I don't think they should then turn to their mates and speak another language if they've clearly just spoke English to me.
So if you moved to Spain and learnt the language so you could communicate with Spanish speakers you would not converse in English with other ex pats? Really?
Yes, if I can speak the language and if people could around me my why wouldn't I. I'd only go back to English if I had to speak to a English person visiting that could only speak English.
You're talking bollocks. Whilst in China I've tried to learn the language, I - try - to speak to my mother in law in Chinese, I have non English speaking friends, with whom I obviously speak Chinese, after a long day at work I get home, grab a beer and relax on huge sofa, do you know what language I speak? Not bloody Chinese.
Can you even speak a second language? Are you aware of the effort it can take it think through everything you want to say in your head before you say it? Of course if I was fluent in Chinese it would be easier, but I'm not. By your logic should I even be learning Mandarin? What about the local dialect? Should I be focusing on kunminghua?
By your rules, am I even allowed to post in English?
太笨蛋
Why would I lie? I would definitely try to learn the language of another country if I lived there and would eventually.
No I don't speak another language but I don't feel the need to as I live in England. I know a bit of Spanish but that's as far as it goes.
I know it would be very hard to learn a different language. I am sorry that you won't learn Chinese.
It's a site full of English people focused on an English club and you can speak English so to answer your witty question, yeah I suppose you can?
You haven't read my post properly have you? In my scenario (that's happened a few times) the person behind the till can also speak fluent English but then switches to speak their own language to people that also can speak English but are choosing not to.
I think it's you who doesn't understand. He (Stu) is teaching in China. He has also stated that he DOES speak (Mandarin, I believe - there's no such thing as 'Chinese')
What he's saying is that just because there are obvious situations where he needs to speak it in his daily life, when he's with English-speaking people there, he speaks English. As do all the English ex-pats who live, work and socialise with my mum.
Seems to me patently obvious that you would speak your native tongue when with people who share it. What most people appear to have a problem with is large numbers of people in the same area who don't speak English as their main language, which is a completely different argument.
I thought he meant he lived in China but was back in England.
Like I said before, It's a lot simpler than people are making out. I don't like people speaking their own foreign language in England. It's an opinion and it's not offensive in the slightest so I don't get why I've been quoted so much.
I also just got married and gave my speech in English and an American friend translated for me. I assume this is something you'd not approve of, especially as most of the guests where Chinese and a lot of them don't speak English. I speak to my wife in English all the time too.
Moving somewhere and just learning the language is not as simple as you make out, I try to learn but working a full time job and studying a language is difficult. Yes, I think people should make the effort to learn the language of the country they live in but to make it compulsory would be ridiculous, I'm moving to Malaysia in January, do I start again with studying? What about when I move after that.
No I don't have a problem with that at all. I have lots of foreign friends and I respect that it's hard to learn a new language as they've told me, but I'm mainly on about the effort here.
I'm just saying it bugs me when people speak in their own language despite knowing English in England. End of the day it's all about a preference really, it winds me up but it doesn't do any harm I guess.
Probably get a ban knowing how sensitive this forum can be but some of these posts are ridiculous.
It's sad that it's even a possibility that the majority of any London Borough may have English as it's second language. Just isn't acceptable.
I don't have a problem with people speaking in their own language when they visit the country, I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
So you should only be allowed to live in the country if English is your first language?
Don't think I said that, I'm saying that if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try. If people don't then I'll just rollover as that's what we're good as a country at doing now.
But this survey - which prompted this thread - was based on information as to languages other than English which are spoken, that doesn't mean they can't speak English too.
I have a huge problem with people speaking in their own language when they live here if they can speak English.
But why? Are you worried they're talking about you or something?
I've lived in a few countries and can't say I've ever seen British expats walking around speaking the local tongue to each other. If it's all of a sudden such a cornerstone of British manners...
No not really, but it is a bit annoying when you get served on a till by someone speaking English only to turn to their mates and speak in their own language, what's the need. I've got lots of friends who were not born here or their parents migrated before they were born yet they always speak English and never decide to suddenly flip between the languages when we're out.
Why does it bother you ? In you first post you've said "if people live in this country they should speak the language or at least try" - in your hypothetical shop example they've done just that, and addressed you in English because you can't speak another language.
Because I live in England and so do they? Why would I or they address me in any other language? Are you for real?
But they didn't, they spoke to you in English as per your request. Are you saying that any conversation held in your presence - even one not involving you - must be conducted in English ?
Misunderstood sorry.
It shouldn't be a request, they work in a shop in England so it should be a given to speak English, so you can't really refer to it as a request can you. Request the complete wrong word.
I don't think they should then turn to their mates and speak another language if they've clearly just spoke English to me.
So if you moved to Spain and learnt the language so you could communicate with Spanish speakers you would not converse in English with other ex pats? Really?
Yes, if I can speak the language and if people could around me my why wouldn't I. I'd only go back to English if I had to speak to a English person visiting that could only speak English.
You're talking bollocks. Whilst in China I've tried to learn the language, I - try - to speak to my mother in law in Chinese, I have non English speaking friends, with whom I obviously speak Chinese, after a long day at work I get home, grab a beer and relax on huge sofa, do you know what language I speak? Not bloody Chinese.
Can you even speak a second language? Are you aware of the effort it can take it think through everything you want to say in your head before you say it? Of course if I was fluent in Chinese it would be easier, but I'm not. By your logic should I even be learning Mandarin? What about the local dialect? Should I be focusing on kunminghua?
By your rules, am I even allowed to post in English?
太笨蛋
Why would I lie? I would definitely try to learn the language of another country if I lived there and would eventually.
No I don't speak another language but I don't feel the need to as I live in England. I know a bit of Spanish but that's as far as it goes.
I know it would be very hard to learn a different language. I am sorry that you won't learn Chinese.
It's a site full of English people focused on an English club and you can speak English so to answer your witty question, yeah I suppose you can?
You haven't read my post properly have you? In my scenario (that's happened a few times) the person behind the till can also speak fluent English but then switches to speak their own language to people that also can speak English but are choosing not to.
I think it's you who doesn't understand. He (Stu) is teaching in China. He has also stated that he DOES speak (Mandarin, I believe - there's no such thing as 'Chinese')
What he's saying is that just because there are obvious situations where he needs to speak it in his daily life, when he's with English-speaking people there, he speaks English. As do all the English ex-pats who live, work and socialise with my mum.
Seems to me patently obvious that you would speak your native tongue when with people who share it. What most people appear to have a problem with is large numbers of people in the same area who don't speak English as their main language, which is a completely different argument.
I thought he meant he lived in China but was back in England.
Like I said before, It's a lot simpler than people are making out. I don't like people speaking their own foreign language in England. It's an opinion and it's not offensive in the slightest so I don't get why I've been quoted so much.
I also just got married and gave my speech in English and an American friend translated for me. I assume this is something you'd not approve of, especially as most of the guests where Chinese and a lot of them don't speak English. I speak to my wife in English all the time too.
Moving somewhere and just learning the language is not as simple as you make out, I try to learn but working a full time job and studying a language is difficult. Yes, I think people should make the effort to learn the language of the country they live in but to make it compulsory would be ridiculous, I'm moving to Malaysia in January, do I start again with studying? What about when I move after that.
No I don't have a problem with that at all. I have lots of foreign friends and I respect that it's hard to learn a new language as they've told me, but I'm mainly on about the effort here.
I'm just saying it bugs me when people speak in their own language despite knowing English in England. End of the day it's all about a preference really, it winds me up but it doesn't do any harm I guess.
But it can. My lovely Slovakian neighbours young daughter is struggling at school because her English is not bad but not as good as it should be (6 years old and born here). Her parents speak their national language at home. My wife being an English teacher has suggested they speak ONLY English all the time to help with the schooling.
I believe ones views on this subject, which has been enlarged to encompass multiculturalism and standards, stems in part from where you live and what you have endured in the past.
As one who was raised in Charlton in the 1950s/60s, I lived in a predominately white area and issues around language barriers and differing culture such as we face today were not on the radar. Charlton today (and I return regularly for the football) is a vastly different place to that in which I was raised. I now live in a lovely middle class market town in Bucks, predominately white. As a throwaway line, I have for over 30 years,and still do, financially support a charity for non-white people. I like to think that that makes me non-racist.
However, London apart, I don't believe multiculturalism works in the UK. Non indigenous people arrive on our shores and understandable graduate to areas that are already populated by their kith and kin. This situation creates a mini class of the country from which they have just left - for Leicester, rename India; Bradford, Pakistan; East London, Bangladesh etc. Such areas are then turned into the slum areas from which the same people originated. This to me is the reality of life in some parts of the UK and it is not a situation that I think benefits that many people. To me, multiculturalism simply doesn't work in the UK. In the USA it is fine because many different cultures emigrated to the USA at the same time and thus no single engrained culture was under a challenge (ignoring the Native American issue which was not a single culture).
Younger members of Charlton Life living in SE London today may well know of no different culture to that they experience today. Therefore their views may be shaped by the situation they find themselves in and may be diametrically different to my views expressed above.
Lots of questions alluded to in your post.
One basic one is what do you mean by 'works' in your statement ' I don't believe multiculturalism works in the UK'. The UK has for centuries been a multi-cultural society, and in that time it won wars, built Empires, made scientific, industrial, artistic and social progress and so on and so forth. Maybe the UK simply hasn't been 'working' in the 2000 odd years of multi-culturalism we have already enjoyed and I have missed spotting all the failures.
In terms of language the origin of your phrase 'kith and kin' is Germanic, 'indigenous' is from Latin as is 'vastly', 'engrained' from French, 'diametrically' from Greek....need I go on? Words you have selected to use in your post reflect the multi cultural nature of our language, and the multi cultural history of our society. In that sense (at the very least) multiculturalism in the UK has 'worked' for you.
But it can. My lovely Slovakian neighbours young daughter is struggling at school because her English is not bad but not as good as it should be (6 years old and born here). Her parents speak their national language at home. My wife being an English teacher has suggested they speak ONLY English all the time to help with the schooling.
That may be the case on some occasions, but not always, it could also be that the child in question has broader learning problems.
In my sons junior football team I coached an 8 year old Japanese boy whose parents spoke only Japanese at home (their English was limited) but Miku's English was flawless and he performed exceptionally well at school.
One basic one is what do you mean by 'works' in your statement ' I don't believe multiculturalism works in the UK'. The UK has for centuries been a multi-cultural society, and in that time it won wars, built Empires, made scientific, industrial, artistic and social progress and so on and so forth. Maybe the UK simply hasn't been 'working' in the 2000 od years of multi-culturalism we have already enjoyed and I have missed spotting all the failures.
In terms of language the origin of your phrase 'kith and kin' is Germanic, 'indigenous' is from Latin as is 'vastly', 'engrained' from French, 'diametrically' from Greek....need I go on? Words you have selected to use in your post reflect the multi cultural nature of our language, and the multi cultural history of our society. In that sense (at the very least) multiculturalism in the UK has 'worked' for you.
1. Thanks for your views which have given me food for thought.
2. The culture and values endemic in the UK during my formative years is the culture to which I refer as "British", accepting that such a culture was shaped by earlier events to which you refer. So as a starting point, the latter so called Multiculturalism doesn't work outside of London for the reasons I stated (in my opinion).
I don't have an opinion on the thread topic as such. However, I'm always struck how, during such topics, the posters who oppose multi-culturalism/multi linguistics etc, are always treated in a condescending manner by those who agree with it.
Mind you, I haven't read past page 1, mainly for the above reason.
It's probably because there is never a reasonable explanation given for opposing it. See PL54's posts for examples of this.
Oh do knob off.
I am all for multiculturalism, social integration and harmony but that requires a common language - at least when the various parties come together in places like school, shops and the such like. Otherwise you have isolation and miscommunication at best.
For the time being and seeing as this is happening in England after all, I think that the shared, majority language should be English.
What does "shared, majority language" mean? Because if it means that, in London, most people should speak English, that's what we've got.
Good and let's hope it stays that way.
Out of interest, PL54 - where do you live?
I moved out of SE15 some 15 years ago and live in Surrey - Cobham to be precise.
Great. Then why don't you leave worrying about London to those people who still live in a London Borough - and stick to worrying about the thousands in Cobham who don't speak English as a first language... Oh. Wait. That's right - the vast majority of us are just fine with the situation, and the number of people who live in Cobham who don't speak English as a first language can be counted on the fingers of one knee.
Squeeze me ? Some people are so rude.
Don't be offering any comment on Scottish Independence or America - assuming you don't live in either of those places.
The Tescos incident on page 1 is within spitting distance of Cobham. The cleaning girls struggle to understand how I like my chinos folded and the gardner regularly fucks up the lawn through a lack of English language skills - apparantly weed killer and fairy liquid are very similar.
Don't get me started on the half-wit who regularly cleans the wrong car in our drive because he can't read the note I leave out - he is only 7 though.
I don't have an opinion on the thread topic as such. However, I'm always struck how, during such topics, the posters who oppose multi-culturalism/multi linguistics etc, are always treated in a condescending manner by those who agree with it.
Mind you, I haven't read past page 1, mainly for the above reason.
It's probably because there is never a reasonable explanation given for opposing it. See PL54's posts for examples of this.
Oh do knob off.
I am all for multiculturalism, social integration and harmony but that requires a common language - at least when the various parties come together in places like school, shops and the such like. Otherwise you have isolation and miscommunication at best.
For the time being and seeing as this is happening in England after all, I think that the shared, majority language should be English.
What does "shared, majority language" mean? Because if it means that, in London, most people should speak English, that's what we've got.
Good and let's hope it stays that way.
Out of interest, PL54 - where do you live?
I moved out of SE15 some 15 years ago and live in Surrey - Cobham to be precise.
Great. Then why don't you leave worrying about London to those people who still live in a London Borough - and stick to worrying about the thousands in Cobham who don't speak English as a first language... Oh. Wait. That's right - the vast majority of us are just fine with the situation, and the number of people who live in Cobham who don't speak English as a first language can be counted on the fingers of one knee.
Squeeze me ? Some people are so rude.
Don't be offering any comment on Scottish Independence or America - assuming you don't live in either of those places.
The Tescos incident on page 1 is within spitting distance of Cobham. The cleaning girls struggle to understand how I like my chinos folded and the gardner regularly fucks up the lawn through a lack of English language skills - apparantly weed killer and fairy liquid are very similar.
Don't get me started on the half-wit who regularly cleans the wrong car in our drive because he can't read the note I leave out - he is only 7 though.
But it can. My lovely Slovakian neighbours young daughter is struggling at school because her English is not bad but not as good as it should be (6 years old and born here). Her parents speak their national language at home. My wife being an English teacher has suggested they speak ONLY English all the time to help with the schooling.
That is a very good idea, but not what Braziliance was talking about (before he changed tack a little). He was suggesting that if he moved to Portugal, he would speak Portuguese all the time with English friends who also spoke Portuguese, and NEVER speak English with them, and he expects that others should do the same. It's a different scenario when a child has to go off to school and does not speak a word of the language. But even then, the parents would not be expected to speak English to each other when the child is in bed, or at school.
Here in Portugal kids who don't have Portuguese as a native tongue are offered Portuguese lessons from day one when they go to school. Everyone I know has picked it up very rapidly and in most cases are actually better at it than their native classmates within about three years...
Here in Albufeira (Population 40k) a couple of years ago they counted 32 different native languages in the town's schools.
*EDIT - Quoting seems to be right up the swanny? *
Stu seeing as your on here, I saw a thing on the beeb the morning where the Chinese have banned covering the face and making Muslims not be in full burka, also shaving the beards from the males
Personally I think it's drastic but understandable as there is no.hiding who you are
What's the feeling in China on this pal, Jessie feel free to answer also (but as a woman your view will hold little weight) 8)
My son was born in Lewisham Hospital, but at home for the first 3/4 years of his life we spoke Mandarin/English in a 60/40 ratio. The benefit of the mental manoeuvring that may have been needed for him (although it was never ever a chore or weird) has in my opinion led to educational success for him, not failure.
Now I know every case is different, a child with 100% Lithuanian at home may well not manage as successfully as a native English speaker when they first go to school, but they very soon catch up, and then the benefits of having two languages kicks in big time.
Stu seeing as your on here, I saw a thing on the beeb the morning where the Chinese have banned covering the face and making Muslims not be in full burka, also shaving the beards from the males
Personally I think it's drastic but understandable as there is no.hiding who you are
What's the feeling in China on this pal, Jessie feel free to answer also (but as a woman your view will hold little weight) 8)
You're probably best asking that of Siv in Urumqi as that is taking place in his part of China where the Muslim population is located, the Uyghurs, although would still be interesting to get Stu's opinion.
Stu seeing as your on here, I saw a thing on the beeb the morning where the Chinese have banned covering the face and making Muslims not be in full burka, also shaving the beards from the males
Personally I think it's drastic but understandable as there is no.hiding who you are
What's the feeling in China on this pal, Jessie feel free to answer also (but as a woman your view will hold little weight) 8)
To be honest I didn't know that. I'm sure though it's for security reasons. Since 2014, a lot of people have been killed in terrorist attacks in that part of the country so the government simply has to take action to prevent further civilian casualties.
Stu seeing as your on here, I saw a thing on the beeb the morning where the Chinese have banned covering the face and making Muslims not be in full burka, also shaving the beards from the males
Personally I think it's drastic but understandable as there is no.hiding who you are
What's the feeling in China on this pal, Jessie feel free to answer also (but as a woman your view will hold little weight) 8)
To be honest I didn't know that. I'm sure though it's for security reasons. Since 2014, a lot of people have been killed in terrorist attacks in that part of the country so the government simply has to take action to prevent further civilian casualties.
Security reasons, hmmm, not sure I could agree with that, more to do with continuing to surpress a minority group the government would rather not have around, wipe everyone out, leave only the Han Chinese left.
This topic is not something I've spoken to anyone about really as I have kinda given up even trying to discuss this sort of thig anymore, hearing the same generic brainwashed responses gets a little annoying after a while. Chairman Mao was god, don't you know.
There are a lot of muslims living in Kunming and they are mostly not trusted by the Han， altough as a general rule they are left to get on with their lives. They also make kick ass food.
Comments
I should have phrased it better. I got that one wrong.
I find your tone to be overtly accusatory at times and think this could rarely lead to you getting people to "re-think their position" in this environment.
Anyway - no more from me on this.
As you say.....Up The Addicks!
So you don't think that peoples views are shaped by the era and circumstance in which they were brought up, which was the main point I was making?
I don't see multiculturalism working outside of London for the reasons I stated. My daughter lives in Leicester and has done so for many years, so I see the impact of multiculturalism on that city.
I have just calculated that I have donated some £9k (30 years at £26pm) on non Caucasian charities in my lifetime. First, donating to the upbringing of a native American child (Oglala Sioux) and latterly donating each month to a charity in India undertaking cataract operations.
If my views on the subject of multiculturalism offend some people then I am happy to hear contrary views and debate the subject. Stating "Effin hell" etc is not very helpful.
Like I said before, It's a lot simpler than people are making out. I don't like people speaking their own foreign language in England. It's an opinion and it's not offensive in the slightest so I don't get why I've been quoted so much.
Its Rolands bat and ball so I think he can please his self.
My self, it dosen't bother me at all.
;-)
I don't see multiculturalism working outside of London for the reasons I stated. My daughter lives in Leicester and has done so for many years, so I see the impact of multiculturalism on that city.
I have just calculated that I have donated some £9k (30 years at £26pm) on non Caucasian charities in my lifetime. First, donating to the upbringing of a native American child (Oglala Sioux) and latterly donating each month to a charity in India undertaking cataract operations.
If my views on the subject of multiculturalism offend some people then I am happy to hear contrary views and debate the subject. Stating "Effin hell" etc is not very helpful.
I don't have the time or inclination to get involved in a lengthy and pointless debate but I will just say this.
Having been to the slums of both Dhaka and Karachi (not to mention Mumbai and Delhi) in recent years I don't see how anyone with any degree of seriousness could compare them to the standard of life in Leicester, Bradford or any other city with a large Asian population, it is totally over the top and utterly laughable.
Sure, Bradford is not the best place on earth, but you don't have people in Bradford living in abject poverty living on less than a dollar per day and having some of the lowest life expectancy rates in the world.
Quite frankly if you had the nerve to say to a British Asian from either of those towns what you have said on here - effectively that they and their families have turned those towns into being like the slums they came from in the sub-continent - then you would probably get a smack in the mouth. A fully deserved one.
Would you say to, lets say a poor white person from some desolate part of West Virginia, that they had successfully re-created the slum like and barely literate living conditions of their forebears from Scotland and Ulster? What do you think their response would be to that?
Moving somewhere and just learning the language is not as simple as you make out, I try to learn but working a full time job and studying a language is difficult. Yes, I think people should make the effort to learn the language of the country they live in but to make it compulsory would be ridiculous, I'm moving to Malaysia in January, do I start again with studying? What about when I move after that.
Having been to the slums of both Dhaka and Karachi (not to mention Mumbai and Delhi) in recent years I don't see how anyone with any degree of seriousness could compare them to the standard of life in Leicester, Bradford or any other city with a large Asian population, it is totally over the top and utterly laughable.
Sure, Bradford is not the best place on earth, but you don't have people in Bradford living in abject poverty living on less than a dollar per day and having some of the lowest life expectancy rates in the world.
Quite frankly if you had the nerve to say to a British Asian from either of those towns what you have said on here - effectively that they and their families have turned those towns into being like the slums they came from in the sub-continent - then you would probably get a smack in the mouth. A fully deserved one.
Would you say to, lets say a poor white person from some desolate part of West Virginia, that they had successfully re-created the slum like and barely literate living conditions of their forebears from Scotland and Ulster? What do you think their response would be to that?
1. Ok, I concede that my use of the word "slum" should not have been used, but the areas I have quoted have changed beyond recognition from how they looked in the 50s/60s.
2. I was amused by your statement "I don't have the time or inclination etc", and then you go into such diatribe!
3. I have also travelled extensively (76 countries/islands at the last count, including New Delhi) and I do see many similarities between Leicester and Delhi.
4. I notice that you didn't mention, for the purpose of a balanced view, my financial contribution to the foreign cultures that I have mentioned.
5. Surely nobody can state that multiculturalism works in Leicester. There are only two cultures in that city, primarily Indian and secondly British.
6. Thanks for your views, have a nice day.
I'm just saying it bugs me when people speak in their own language despite knowing English in England. End of the day it's all about a preference really, it winds me up but it doesn't do any harm I guess.
Agree. (With the bit in bold).
But it can.
My lovely Slovakian neighbours young daughter is struggling at school because her English is not bad but not as good as it should be (6 years old and born here). Her parents speak their national language at home. My wife being an English teacher has suggested they speak ONLY English all the time to help with the schooling.
One basic one is what do you mean by 'works' in your statement ' I don't believe multiculturalism works in the UK'.
The UK has for centuries been a multi-cultural society, and in that time it won wars, built Empires, made scientific, industrial, artistic and social progress and so on and so forth.
Maybe the UK simply hasn't been 'working' in the 2000 odd years of multi-culturalism we have already enjoyed and I have missed spotting all the failures.
In terms of language the origin of your phrase 'kith and kin' is Germanic, 'indigenous' is from Latin as is 'vastly', 'engrained' from French, 'diametrically' from Greek....need I go on?
Words you have selected to use in your post reflect the multi cultural nature of our language, and the multi cultural history of our society. In that sense (at the very least) multiculturalism in the UK has 'worked' for you.
But it can.
My lovely Slovakian neighbours young daughter is struggling at school because her English is not bad but not as good as it should be (6 years old and born here). Her parents speak their national language at home. My wife being an English teacher has suggested they speak ONLY English all the time to help with the schooling.
That may be the case on some occasions, but not always, it could also be that the child in question has broader learning problems.
In my sons junior football team I coached an 8 year old Japanese boy whose parents spoke only Japanese at home (their English was limited) but Miku's English was flawless and he performed exceptionally well at school.
Lots of questions alluded to in your post.
One basic one is what do you mean by 'works' in your statement ' I don't believe multiculturalism works in the UK'.
The UK has for centuries been a multi-cultural society, and in that time it won wars, built Empires, made scientific, industrial, artistic and social progress and so on and so forth.
Maybe the UK simply hasn't been 'working' in the 2000 od years of multi-culturalism we have already enjoyed and I have missed spotting all the failures.
In terms of language the origin of your phrase 'kith and kin' is Germanic, 'indigenous' is from Latin as is 'vastly', 'engrained' from French, 'diametrically' from Greek....need I go on?
Words you have selected to use in your post reflect the multi cultural nature of our language, and the multi cultural history of our society. In that sense (at the very least) multiculturalism in the UK has 'worked' for you.
1. Thanks for your views which have given me food for thought.
2. The culture and values endemic in the UK during my formative years is the culture to which I refer as "British", accepting that such a culture was shaped by earlier events to which you refer. So as a starting point, the latter so called Multiculturalism doesn't work outside of London for the reasons I stated (in my opinion).
3. Have a nice day.
Don't be offering any comment on Scottish Independence or America - assuming you don't live in either of those places.
The Tescos incident on page 1 is within spitting distance of Cobham. The cleaning girls struggle to understand how I like my chinos folded and the gardner regularly fucks up the lawn through a lack of English language skills - apparantly weed killer and fairy liquid are very similar.
Don't get me started on the half-wit who regularly cleans the wrong car in our drive because he can't read the note I leave out - he is only 7 though.
Cheese.
"cleaning girls"
now there's a thought.
But it can.
My lovely Slovakian neighbours young daughter is struggling at school because her English is not bad but not as good as it should be (6 years old and born here). Her parents speak their national language at home. My wife being an English teacher has suggested they speak ONLY English all the time to help with the schooling.
That is a very good idea, but not what Braziliance was talking about (before he changed tack a little). He was suggesting that if he moved to Portugal, he would speak Portuguese all the time with English friends who also spoke Portuguese, and NEVER speak English with them, and he expects that others should do the same. It's a different scenario when a child has to go off to school and does not speak a word of the language. But even then, the parents would not be expected to speak English to each other when the child is in bed, or at school.
Here in Portugal kids who don't have Portuguese as a native tongue are offered Portuguese lessons from day one when they go to school. Everyone I know has picked it up very rapidly and in most cases are actually better at it than their native classmates within about three years...
Here in Albufeira (Population 40k) a couple of years ago they counted 32 different native languages in the town's schools.
*EDIT - Quoting seems to be right up the swanny? *
Personally I think it's drastic but understandable as there is no.hiding who you are
What's the feeling in China on this pal, Jessie feel free to answer also (but as a woman your view will hold little weight) 8)
Now I know every case is different, a child with 100% Lithuanian at home may well not manage as successfully as a native English speaker when they first go to school, but they very soon catch up, and then the benefits of having two languages kicks in big time.
Siv what's your view
This topic is not something I've spoken to anyone about really as I have kinda given up even trying to discuss this sort of thig anymore, hearing the same generic brainwashed responses gets a little annoying after a while. Chairman Mao was god, don't you know.
There are a lot of muslims living in Kunming and they are mostly not trusted by the Han， altough as a general rule they are left to get on with their lives. They also make kick ass food.