Why Jamie Olivers sjh? I've always considered it contrived.
That's part of it. To discuss whether he is genuinely being himself or subscribing to an image that he or his 'team' want to project. I think it's a bit of both. The main thing the pupils have to do is be able to contrast and compare. So Jamie Oliver and Nigella Lawson are good examples of opposites. Both are contrived though to a degree.
An interesting debate which has made for interesting reading. I'd like to add my couple of quid's worth to it.
I work in a school and teach GCSE English to 15 and 16 year olds. The group I teach is made up of 20 pupils. This includes four pupils who have a statement of special needs. It includes pupils who have behaviour and other learning needs. It includes five pupils who joined the school in year 10. None had any experience of English before coming to England and joining the school. One is Algerian. One is Polish. One is Portuguese. One is Lithuanian and one Eritrean.
My job is to get them a GCSE in English Language and English Literature. I have to teach the intricacies of formal and informal language. For example compare the language used by Jamie Oliver and Nigella Lawson. How does such language represent them and their upbringing? Who is their target audience? How does direction and production of their programmes create an impression of who they are?
They have to understand the nuances, subtleties and inferences of different poems. They have to consider the writings of Steinbeck, Harper Lee etc. And if course read, comprehend and explain the works of Shakespeare.
But I love it. And working with EAL students is mindblowing. I find their attitude to learning, to bettering themselves, to making something of the opportunity our education system can give them totally refreshing. Particularly when compared to 'indigenous' folk who display attitudes which totally oppose this. The pride in seeing their English develop, the differences and similarities in different languages that they discover, the moment they produce a piece of work that makes a smile spread across my face.
They are desperate to fit in. They want to speak English and to be able to write, converse, argue, debate and discuss in English. But it takes time. It take effort and energy. It is a challenge. So, at times non English speakers slip back into the comfort zone of something they know well and makes them feel more comfortable. Their own language.
Some of you will read this and thinks it's bollocks. Some will have a passing interest. I probably can't really explain why I've felt the need to write what is, in essence, a bit of self indulgent tosh.
Hopefully it gives a context to my beliefs. I grew up in London. I work in London. I love London for many reasons. One if them is the people. The diversity of people. The different shops, the different customs and codes of dress. And the different languages. I don't get this attitude of needing to hear people speaking in English. Why?
Instead enjoy differences and don't be threatened by them. Embrace change and what it can provide for you. Encourage and foster relationships with other people different to yourself because you will learn a lot more form them than what you can teach them.
And part of me thinks if living in London is so bad that you had to move away to a nice , white, middle class town, then fair enough, I don't criticise you for it. ButI think you're missing out.
An interesting debate which has made for interesting reading. I'd like to add my couple of quid's worth to it.
I work in a school and teach GCSE English to 15 and 16 year olds. The group I teach is made up of 20 pupils. This includes four pupils who have a statement of special needs. It includes pupils who have behaviour and other learning needs. It includes five pupils who joined the school in year 10. None had any experience of English before coming to England and joining the school. One is Algerian. One is Polish. One is Portuguese. One is Lithuanian and one Eritrean.
My job is to get them a GCSE in English Language and English Literature. I have to teach the intricacies of formal and informal language. For example compare the language used by Jamie Oliver and Nigella Lawson. How does such language represent them and their upbringing? Who is their target audience? How does direction and production of their programmes create an impression of who they are?
They have to understand the nuances, subtleties and inferences of different poems. They have to consider the writings of Steinbeck, Harper Lee etc. And if course read, comprehend and explain the works of Shakespeare.
But I love it. And working with EAL students is mindblowing. I find their attitude to learning, to bettering themselves, to making something of the opportunity our education system can give them totally refreshing. Particularly when compared to 'indigenous' folk who display attitudes which totally oppose this. The pride in seeing their English develop, the differences and similarities in different languages that they discover, the moment they produce a piece of work that makes a smile spread across my face.
They are desperate to fit in. They want to speak English and to be able to write, converse, argue, debate and discuss in English. But it takes time. It take effort and energy. It is a challenge. So, at times non English speakers slip back into the comfort zone of something they know well and makes them feel more comfortable. Their own language.
Some of you will read this and thinks it's bollocks. Some will have a passing interest. I probably can't really explain why I've felt the need to write what is, in essence, a bit of self indulgent tosh.
Hopefully it gives a context to my beliefs. I grew up in London. I work in London. I love London for many reasons. One if them is the people. The diversity of people. The different shops, the different customs and codes of dress. And the different languages. I don't get this attitude of needing to hear people speaking in English. Why?
Instead enjoy differences and don't be threatened by them. Embrace change and what it can provide for you. Encourage and foster relationships with other people different to yourself because you will learn a lot more form them than what you can teach them.
And part of me thinks if living in London is so bad that you had to move away to a nice , white, middle class town, then fair enough, I don't criticise you for it. ButI think you're missing out.
9/10. Well done, but please get in on time in future. And stop eating in the classroom. It's your own time you're wasting...
mate you and me both, 9pm Thursday channel 4 and we will find out , educating east London, I thought the nthn one was hard to hear this one should be all pants on show and kmt
mate you and me both, 9pm Thursday channel 4 and we will find out , educating east London, I thought the nthn one was hard to hear this one should be all pants on show and kmt
I hope it doesn't show this. Of course there will be kids who represent this section of young people but there are so many who don't and I hope such youngsters are represented and showcased aswell.
The pupil from Eritrea is one of the most inspirational people I have ever met.
He travelled from Eritrea through North Africa and across to Italy. He travelled through Europe and ended up in England because that is where he always dreamed of being. He did this pretty much alone and single handed as he has no family left.
On arrival in England he found his way to London and was placed in foster care.
In his lessons he sits with an Arabic dictionary, an Eritreqn dictionary, an English dictionary and a thesaurus. He works and works and works. He is polite and respectful and well liked by the other pupils. He will go far and if I owned or managed a company I would employ him now. Without hesitation.
In response to Paddy 17: (The quote box is getting full!)
I have no problem in principle with white people representing the interests of ethnic minorities in the same way as I have no problem in principle with people from ethnic minorities, my present MP being an example, representing my, part of the ethnic majority if there is such a phrase, interests. However I would expect to be able to criticise him if I am dissatisfied with his performance without being labelled a racist.
My point about white people was that some will use the label 'racist' or similar where inappropiate to stifle debate and further their own political agendas and it is those I reject and refer to above. Gordon Brown 'bigot' syndrome if that clarifies things at all.
If that is "picking and choosing" then guilty as charged.
As regards your point re various shades of white I suppose I am talking about the majority "shade" one sees although I've not really looked at the issue in terms of different shades of white I admit. I'll let you define it from there.
First, in response to PL54's quote, I really haven't meant to be condescending. I write like I do (i.e. step-by-step) for my own sake, and I apologise if that happens to be disagreeable.
I think it's fair enough to have that expectation, Len. As long as there isn't a suggestion that, say, he's inferior at his job because he's of a minority ethnic background. Similarly, if an MP happened to be female, a constituent has every right to be critical but to suggest it's because of their gender would be unacceptable.
I don't think anyone's calling anyone a racist (overtly), and if anything from observation it's those with "right-wing" (?? - excuse my terminology) agendas saying the "PC brigade" are calling others racist. Which hasn't been the case, in my opinion. Could be wrong though.
Fair enough, yeah I would've taken it to mean White British too. Just like clarification because some people hold other views.
(NB I love all this sort of discourse, it's great)
School documentaries always focus on the extremities in schools because it makes good telly, confrontation and pain and all that. Really looking at, and examining the education process wouldn't easily work because it can be slow, it can be a slog, and it can be boring too. The Musharat moment in Educating Yorkshire was a bit of a fortunate break, but it did encompass how teachers can really help and make a difference to youngsters, especially if they're trusted. I hope Educating the East End is less about the 'dramatic' minority and more about some of the glories of education. I thought Educating Yorkshire was a great advertisement for state education, comprehensive education, and for the work that teachers try to do.
I can 100% say I've never heard of Eritrea. I swear to god I used to think I was smart.
Just a quick question SJH are all your pupils here legally? The story of the pupil from eritrea makes it sound like he might not be. Apologies if I'm wrong.
My understanding is (and I may be wrong as the rules and laws around entering a country are very vague and complicated.) I believe that due to circumstance it is fine him being here. When he becomes an adult then representation is made by him or on his behalf as to why he should be allowed to stay in the UK.
I honestly couldn't answer the question re legality.
In response to Paddy 17: (The quote box is getting full!)
I have no problem in principle with white people representing the interests of ethnic minorities in the same way as I have no problem in principle with people from ethnic minorities, my present MP being an example, representing my, part of the ethnic majority if there is such a phrase, interests. However I would expect to be able to criticise him if I am dissatisfied with his performance without being labelled a racist.
My point about white people was that some will use the label 'racist' or similar where inappropiate to stifle debate and further their own political agendas and it is those I reject and refer to above. Gordon Brown 'bigot' syndrome if that clarifies things at all.
If that is "picking and choosing" then guilty as charged.
As regards your point re various shades of white I suppose I am talking about the majority "shade" one sees although I've not really looked at the issue in terms of different shades of white I admit. I'll let you define it from there.
First, in response to PL54's quote, I really haven't meant to be condescending. I write like I do (i.e. step-by-step) for my own sake, and I apologise if that happens to be disagreeable.
I think it's fair enough to have that expectation, Len. As long as there isn't a suggestion that, say, he's inferior at his job because he's of a minority ethnic background. Similarly, if an MP happened to be female, a constituent has every right to be critical but to suggest it's because of their gender would be unacceptable.
I don't think anyone's calling anyone a racist (overtly), and if anything from observation it's those with "right-wing" (?? - excuse my terminology) agendas saying the "PC brigade" are calling others racist. Which hasn't been the case, in my opinion. Could be wrong though.
Fair enough, yeah I would've taken it to mean White British too. Just like clarification because some people hold other views.
(NB I love all this sort of discourse, it's great)
"I write like I do"
No you write like Rik from the Young Ones. Rebel.
What does that mean? I'm afraid I'm unfamiliar with the Young Ones. Like I said, if you find what I say disagreeable, I apologise, though I'd like to know why that is, rather than you making a comment on what you perceive to be my character.
1. England will always attract a variety of nationalities and languages 2. Those people attracted to England should make an attempt (ideally a good one) to speak English when out and about and teach their kids English 3. It's ok to speak your natural language outside of #2 4. Schools should either alter the curriculum to accommodate non- English speakers or alternatively carry on and assume they will catch up
1. England will always attract a variety of nationalities and languages 2. Those people attracted to England should make an attempt (ideally a good one) to speak English when out and about and teach their kids English 3. It's ok to speak your natural language outside of #2 4. Schools should either alter the curriculum to accommodate non- English speakers or alternatively carry on and assume they will catch up
Or is there a patronising argument left ?
Re number 4, you cannot alter the curriculum,however you adapt your teaching and resources to help them much as you do for pupils of low ability. Also schools have EAL (English as Additional Language) staff who support pupils from other countries in their learning.
I can 100% say I've never heard of Eritrea. I swear to god I used to think I was smart.
Just a quick question SJH are all your pupils here legally? The story of the pupil from eritrea makes it sound like he might not be. Apologies if I'm wrong.
Eritrea was (is) part of Ethiopia. I am not sure whether or not it is presently regarded as a sovereign state in its own right but there has been fighting over many years.
1. England will always attract a variety of nationalities and languages 2. Those people attracted to England should make an attempt (ideally a good one) to speak English when out and about and teach their kids English 3. It's ok to speak your natural language outside of #2 4. Schools should either alter the curriculum to accommodate non- English speakers or alternatively carry on and assume they will catch up
Or is there a patronising argument left ?
"Patronising"? Gosh - what a big word! Well done you.
1. England will always attract a variety of nationalities and languages 2. Those people attracted to England should make an attempt (ideally a good one) to speak English when out and about and teach their kids English 3. It's ok to speak your natural language outside of #2 4. Schools should either alter the curriculum to accommodate non- English speakers or alternatively carry on and assume they will catch up
Or is there a patronising argument left ?
I'd like you to answer my question regarding an unsolicited, unwarranted slight on my character, given you don't know me, so there's that.
I can 100% say I've never heard of Eritrea. I swear to god I used to think I was smart.
Just a quick question SJH are all your pupils here legally? The story of the pupil from eritrea makes it sound like he might not be. Apologies if I'm wrong.
Eritrea was (is) part of Ethiopia. I am not sure whether or not it is presently regarded as a sovereign state in its own right but there has been fighting over many years.
Oh okay, i know Ethiopia so now I don't feel completely lost. Cheers Len
I can 100% say I've never heard of Eritrea. I swear to god I used to think I was smart.
Just a quick question SJH are all your pupils here legally? The story of the pupil from eritrea makes it sound like he might not be. Apologies if I'm wrong.
Eritrea was (is) part of Ethiopia. I am not sure whether or not it is presently regarded as a sovereign state in its own right but there has been fighting over many years.
Oh okay, i know Ethiopia so now I don't feel completely lost. Cheers Len
Just an addendum - Eritrea is in fact recognised by all UN member states (and presumably observers) and is a sovereign nation. Ethiopia's relations with Eritrea after the declaration of independence were cordial but have since become a bit strained.
I can 100% say I've never heard of Eritrea. I swear to god I used to think I was smart.
Just a quick question SJH are all your pupils here legally? The story of the pupil from eritrea makes it sound like he might not be. Apologies if I'm wrong.
Eritrea was (is) part of Ethiopia. I am not sure whether or not it is presently regarded as a sovereign state in its own right but there has been fighting over many years.
It's an independent state, since 1991, but has had internal conflicts for ages. It's also very poor and had a war against Ethiopia not that long ago.
Came to this thread late and have to say that despite some high quality posts its a worry that It only took only 5-6 pages to seamlessly progress from second languages spoken in London to the issue of Muslims and then racism.
As a very poor student of Cantonese who is based in Hong Kong for most of the year, I think we should be very grateful that so many of the world's citizens make such an effort to learn our language and culture when we do comparitively little to learn their's. (Jessie's articulate, intelligent and perfectly constructed posts on this site are a tribute to that fact). They will be richer for it (in every way) and we will be poorer.
In my experience, working and travelling in Europe and Asia, the most arrogant and introspective of all expatriate communities by far, who steadfastly refuse to learn the indigenous language and often prefer to barricade themselves from local culture and influences are the British.
The idea that British people who don't speak any foreign languages feel it is acceptable to condemn those legitimate immigrants to UK who don't speak perfect English all the time seems to me hyprocritical, cruel and absurd.
1. England will always attract a variety of nationalities and languages 2. Those people attracted to England should make an attempt (ideally a good one) to speak English when out and about and teach their kids English 3. It's ok to speak your natural language outside of #2 4. Schools should either alter the curriculum to accommodate non- English speakers or alternatively carry on and assume they will catch up
Or is there a patronising argument left ?
I'd like you to answer my question regarding an unsolicited, unwarranted slight on my character, given you don't know me, so there's that.
Rik from The Young Ones was the People's Poet. Don't feel slighted. What part of your character was hurt?
I was in a Tesco store in Weybridge on bank holiday Monday and my son wanted the loo. So I asked a Tesco assistant on the shop floor where the toilets were, but she snapped back "I don't speak English, sorry" and walked off. "Ah, thanks very much" I said and went off to find another 'assistant'. It might be great that so many different languages are spoken here, but I don't think it unreasonable for newcomers settling and working here to speak English.
Are you sure they worked there ? I'd be pretty surprised if a major supermarket would employ someone on the working floor that literally couldn't speak English.
I assume you live in SE9. If that's the case, have you been in any of the shops in Eltham High Street? It's not uncommon to be served by someone with a very limited grasp of the English language. Or be standing in a queue and multiple conversations going on between staff and customers all in foreign languages.
I was in a Tesco store in Weybridge on bank holiday Monday and my son wanted the loo. So I asked a Tesco assistant on the shop floor where the toilets were, but she snapped back "I don't speak English, sorry" and walked off. "Ah, thanks very much" I said and went off to find another 'assistant'. It might be great that so many different languages are spoken here, but I don't think it unreasonable for newcomers settling and working here to speak English.
Are you sure they worked there ? I'd be pretty surprised if a major supermarket would employ someone on the working floor that literally couldn't speak English.
I assume you live in SE9. If that's the case, have you been in any of the shops in Eltham High Street? It's not uncommon to be served by someone with a very limited grasp of the English language. Or be standing in a queue and multiple conversations going on between staff and customers all in foreign languages.
I genuinely don't think I've ever been in a store of a major retailer, Eltham or otherwise, and felt like an employee with a customer facing role didn't have an adequate grasp of English to perform their job - if they're serving me in a shop I don't expect or need them to be able to translate the works of Shakespeare.
1. England will always attract a variety of nationalities and languages 2. Those people attracted to England should make an attempt (ideally a good one) to speak English when out and about and teach their kids English 3. It's ok to speak your natural language outside of #2 4. Schools should either alter the curriculum to accommodate non- English speakers or alternatively carry on and assume they will catch up
Or is there a patronising argument left ?
I'd like you to answer my question regarding an unsolicited, unwarranted slight on my character, given you don't know me, so there's that.
Rik from The Young Ones was the People's Poet. Don't feel slighted. What part of your character was hurt?
I like how you're being patronising having complained about the very same for the last day or so.
Anyway, having had a look at the Young Ones recently, I can only surmise that you're making fun of me, which isn't really appreciated. I would assume it's because I've said I'm a student, and you've taken that to mean you can discredit everything I say offhand because you take no truck from young upstarts and their self-righteous world views.
Right?
And who said I was hurt? I just pointed out you were being insulting.
Now that that's over and done with, would you like to engage in discourse (despite our differing views) rather than using the relative anonymity of the internet to pass personal judgement on someone you don't know? Discuss my viewpoint, fine, but attacking my person for them is definitely not cool.
1. England will always attract a variety of nationalities and languages 2. Those people attracted to England should make an attempt (ideally a good one) to speak English when out and about and teach their kids English 3. It's ok to speak your natural language outside of #2 4. Schools should either alter the curriculum to accommodate non- English speakers or alternatively carry on and assume they will catch up
I get the feeling Chizz would say it to someone who prefers white sugar over brown.
*Here comes the flag!!!!!
What Gary says essentially.
If someone from an ethnic minority considered my actions or words offensive then I would be mortified but white liberals trying to be thought police can do one.
[NB the following comment relates to Britain, where ethnic minority refers to those who are non-white British]
So you don't believe a "white" person can, in any way, represent the interests of ethnic minorities? (Speaking of "white" - is your definition of white here white British, or Caucasian, or anyone who has a shade of skin not dissimilar to your own?)
To go for an example by analogy (I hope this isn't a false equivalence), I can't call out misogyny because I'm male, or class discrimination because my parents are both tertiary sector workers and because I'm of a private school education (and depending on your views there, attend a Russell Group university possibly directly because of this)?
Answered above before I saw this.
In summary it depends on the perceived motivation of the accuser as to whether it gets credence or not.
Unlike many of the PC Lobby I believe in free speech and debate.
Who are they Len - just tell me - who are they... ;-)
Reluctant to answer for fear of dragging the thread away from topic but in essence faceless officials in local authorities, as exemplified by recent events, and anybody who seeks to stifle legitimate debate.
Ah - those equally famous "faceless" officials that the right wing press love to talk about, that no-body actually knows, because actually they don't exist except in the mind of frothers...
An interesting debate which has made for interesting reading. I'd like to add my couple of quid's worth to it.
I work in a school and teach GCSE English to 15 and 16 year olds. The group I teach is made up of 20 pupils. This includes four pupils who have a statement of special needs. It includes pupils who have behaviour and other learning needs. It includes five pupils who joined the school in year 10. None had any experience of English before coming to England and joining the school. One is Algerian. One is Polish. One is Portuguese. One is Lithuanian and one Eritrean.
My job is to get them a GCSE in English Language and English Literature. I have to teach the intricacies of formal and informal language. For example compare the language used by Jamie Oliver and Nigella Lawson. How does such language represent them and their upbringing? Who is their target audience? How does direction and production of their programmes create an impression of who they are?
They have to understand the nuances, subtleties and inferences of different poems. They have to consider the writings of Steinbeck, Harper Lee etc. And if course read, comprehend and explain the works of Shakespeare.
But I love it. And working with EAL students is mindblowing. I find their attitude to learning, to bettering themselves, to making something of the opportunity our education system can give them totally refreshing. Particularly when compared to 'indigenous' folk who display attitudes which totally oppose this. The pride in seeing their English develop, the differences and similarities in different languages that they discover, the moment they produce a piece of work that makes a smile spread across my face.
They are desperate to fit in. They want to speak English and to be able to write, converse, argue, debate and discuss in English. But it takes time. It take effort and energy. It is a challenge. So, at times non English speakers slip back into the comfort zone of something they know well and makes them feel more comfortable. Their own language.
Some of you will read this and thinks it's bollocks. Some will have a passing interest. I probably can't really explain why I've felt the need to write what is, in essence, a bit of self indulgent tosh.
Hopefully it gives a context to my beliefs. I grew up in London. I work in London. I love London for many reasons. One if them is the people. The diversity of people. The different shops, the different customs and codes of dress. And the different languages. I don't get this attitude of needing to hear people speaking in English. Why?
Instead enjoy differences and don't be threatened by them. Embrace change and what it can provide for you. Encourage and foster relationships with other people different to yourself because you will learn a lot more form them than what you can teach them.
And part of me thinks if living in London is so bad that you had to move away to a nice , white, middle class town, then fair enough, I don't criticise you for it. ButI think you're missing out.
What a fantastic post - It should have put the whole debate to bed really...
Comments
1) there are a lot of words being used that I have never seen before in my life.
2) what on earth is an Eritrean?!
He travelled from Eritrea through North Africa and across to Italy. He travelled through Europe and ended up in England because that is where he always dreamed of being. He did this pretty much alone and single handed as he has no family left.
On arrival in England he found his way to London and was placed in foster care.
In his lessons he sits with an Arabic dictionary, an Eritreqn dictionary, an English dictionary and a thesaurus. He works and works and works. He is polite and respectful and well liked by the other pupils. He will go far and if I owned or managed a company I would employ him now. Without hesitation.
No you write like Rik from the Young Ones. Rebel.
The Musharat moment in Educating Yorkshire was a bit of a fortunate break, but it did encompass how teachers can really help and make a difference to youngsters, especially if they're trusted.
I hope Educating the East End is less about the 'dramatic' minority and more about some of the glories of education.
I thought Educating Yorkshire was a great advertisement for state education, comprehensive education, and for the work that teachers try to do.
Just a quick question SJH are all your pupils here legally? The story of the pupil from eritrea makes it sound like he might not be. Apologies if I'm wrong.
I honestly couldn't answer the question re legality.
1. England will always attract a variety of nationalities and languages
2. Those people attracted to England should make an attempt (ideally a good one) to speak English when out and about and teach their kids English
3. It's ok to speak your natural language outside of #2
4. Schools should either alter the curriculum to accommodate non- English speakers or alternatively carry on and assume they will catch up
Or is there a patronising argument left ?
At a guess I reckon the title might be:
'I don't much like you being you, it would be so much better if you were like me'.
Came to this thread late and have to say that despite some high quality posts its a worry that It only took only 5-6 pages to seamlessly progress from second languages spoken in London to the issue of Muslims and then racism.
As a very poor student of Cantonese who is based in Hong Kong for most of the year, I think we should be very grateful that so many of the world's citizens make such an effort to learn our language and culture when we do comparitively little to learn their's. (Jessie's articulate, intelligent and perfectly constructed posts on this site are a tribute to that fact). They will be richer for it (in every way) and we will be poorer.
In my experience, working and travelling in Europe and Asia, the most arrogant and introspective of all expatriate communities by far, who steadfastly refuse to learn the indigenous language and often prefer to barricade themselves from local culture and influences are the British.
The idea that British people who don't speak any foreign languages feel it is acceptable to condemn those legitimate immigrants to UK who don't speak perfect English all the time seems to me hyprocritical, cruel and absurd.
Anyway, having had a look at the Young Ones recently, I can only surmise that you're making fun of me, which isn't really appreciated. I would assume it's because I've said I'm a student, and you've taken that to mean you can discredit everything I say offhand because you take no truck from young upstarts and their self-righteous world views.
Right?
And who said I was hurt? I just pointed out you were being insulting.
Now that that's over and done with, would you like to engage in discourse (despite our differing views) rather than using the relative anonymity of the internet to pass personal judgement on someone you don't know? Discuss my viewpoint, fine, but attacking my person for them is definitely not cool.