Stu seeing as your on here, I saw a thing on the beeb the morning where the Chinese have banned covering the face and making Muslims not be in full burka, also shaving the beards from the males
Personally I think it's drastic but understandable as there is no.hiding who you are
What's the feeling in China on this pal, Jessie feel free to answer also (but as a woman your view will hold little weight) 8)
To be honest I didn't know that. I'm sure though it's for security reasons. Since 2014, a lot of people have been killed in terrorist attacks in that part of the country so the government simply has to take action to prevent further civilian casualties.
Security reasons, hmmm, not sure I could agree with that, more to do with continuing to surpress a minority group the government would rather not have around, wipe everyone out, leave only the Han Chinese left.
This topic is not something I've spoken to anyone about really as I have kinda given up even trying to discuss this sort of thig anymore, hearing the same generic brainwashed responses gets a little annoying after a while. Chairman Mao was god, don't you know.
There are a lot of muslims living in Kunming and they are mostly not trusted by the Han， altough as a general rule they are left to get on with their lives. They also make kick ass food.
I knew you would disagree as I do remember what you said about the Muslims/the Uygurs on the Kunming attack thread. ;-) Personally I have no problem with them. It's just the terrorists that I and I believe most of the other people really hate. I don't think it's the government's agenda to wipe out a whole ethnic group. After all, we have altogether 56 ethnic groups in China. Racism is not the biggest issue here and there're way more difficult and complicated problems up and down the country for the government to tackle.
PS. Sorry to all the other posters that this has gone off the topic.
Just got to this thread. In no way am I surprised to see such a diverse range of views, and a shedload of disagreement.
My two cents, for what it's worth. - Well, I say that, this isn't even my opinion on things, but more my opinion on having an opinion on the matter, if that makes sense (and I hope it's going to once you've read my whole post).
I'm half-Chinese (mum), quarter-English, quarter-Irish (dad), with Dutch (mum) and Lithuanian (probably - Seth, correct me if I'm wrong) roots through ancestors. I've lived in the London Borough of Lewisham - specifically Lee - all my life, except for the last two years, where I've been at the University of Bristol.
In that time, I've grown up with friends of so many different cultures/nationalities/so on. My best friend is half-French [attends Bristol]; I was in A Level classes [in London] with an American, Nigerians, Afro-Caribbeans, Poles, those from the Asian Subcontinent and so on; I play cricket with Aussies and Kiwis; I conduct a band [in Bristol] with Scottish, Irish, Welsh and English people heavily involved; I spend a night out every so often listening to reggae at the Plantation in Stokes Croft [in Bristol]. That is the way it has been for me, and I see nothing wrong with it.
Then again, my seeing nothing wrong with it doesn't mean I can say to other people - for instance @PeterGage - "what are you talking about? Why do you hold those views [e.g. that multiculturalism doesn't work outside of London]?" My personal incredulity doesn't mean I'm right (though of course it doesn't necessarily mean I'm wrong, either).
A lot of people in this thread appear to be making attacks on character, or discrediting other people's personal experiences, when they have not been through the same experiences themselves. This is incredibly fallacious. You cannot view the world through their lens, and they cannot view the world through yours.
--------
One quick note on something that seems to have been routinely ignored - just because English isn't necessarily a first language doesn't mean someone's not proficient in it. I can't speak for the statistics as I've not had the time to look through them properly, but I've not seen anything regarding proficiency in English as a second language. Can anyone shed light on this issue? A quick for-instance: if a fluent English speaker who lives in France comes over to the UK to settle, and considers her first language to be French, then French as a first language makes no practical difference but there's a statistical discrepancy there. (Yes, I'm talking about my best friend.)
How many people in Newham, then, where English is the first language for "only" 50-something percent of its residents, can in fact speak English to an acceptable level? How can we even judge this? (No, personal experience does not really count in this case, as one might be experiencing a statistical anomaly. The shop assistant incident in Tesco for example is probably anomalous, but I can't say definitively.)
--------
With regard to Peter, who I mentioned above, and his views on multiculturalism not working - I (and I'm sure most others here) disagree on the basis of personal experience, which I am acutely aware I've just said can't be discounted. So there's no point in talking much more about that.
I find it really interesting how you say that immigrants...
"create a mini class of the country from which they have just left - for Leicester, rename India; Bradford, Pakistan; East London, Bangladesh etc. Such areas are then turned into the slum areas from which the same people originated. This to me is the reality of life in some parts of the UK and it is not a situation that I think benefits that many people."
I'd like to take the example of Brick Lane. This has historically been the "landing point" for many immigrant groups into London: first the French Huguenots, then the Irish with Ashkenazi Jews, then Bangladeshi immigrants.
There appears to be historical precedent that immigration here has "worked" and other cultures have successfully integrated themselves into British society - so why do you think that the current trend of Bangladeshi immigration probably won't benefit many, and that this area is a slum? (Which from experience doesn't seem to be the case.)
What about, say, Irish immigration into Liverpool - for a non-London example, as I'm aware you said "multiculturalism doesn't work outside of London"?
I think that new peoples into countries always find it hard to settle in and are seen as a bit of an underclass because they come over with little to no resources. They need time to settle into the country, and their value to Britain is proved immeasurable eventually.
Oh, and I see your surname is of French/Norman origin (assuming Peter Gage is your real name). If multiculturalism didn't work, then you wouldn't have the name you do, which is really interesting.
I aint sorry Jessie it's good to hear from people there
My initial thought was bloody good job too, then when you do think about it, your more poking the hornets nest with a stick than solving the problem
You make it harder to hide that's for sure
But you make more angry and feeling suppressed and segregated and ridiculed in a way
To have the posters that show how a Muslim should look is the same as saying I am an over weight white 6ft skin head who buys his clothes from mercs covent Garden so I must be Edl or C18
When I am neither I also dispise section 27 that pigeon holes most supporters on away days
China is unique as there is an element of belief within your culture from your empire and political bodies
But you are choosing to hit a problem head on and in a way many here would choose to do, it will be interesting to watch it unfold
Stay safe in China as I think you need to be very vigilant in the forth coming months
Just got to this thread. In no way am I surprised to see such a diverse range of views, and a shedload of disagreement.
My two cents, for what it's worth. - Well, I say that, this isn't even my opinion on things, but more my opinion on having an opinion on the matter, if that makes sense (and I hope it's going to once you've read my whole post).
I'm half-Chinese (mum), quarter-English, quarter-Irish (dad), with Dutch (mum) and Lithuanian (probably - Seth, correct me if I'm wrong) roots through ancestors. I've lived in the London Borough of Lewisham - specifically Lee - all my life, except for the last two years, where I've been at the University of Bristol.
In that time, I've grown up with friends of so many different cultures/nationalities/so on. My best friend is half-French [attends Bristol]; I was in A Level classes [in London] with an American, Nigerians, Afro-Caribbeans, Poles, those from the Asian Subcontinent and so on; I play cricket with Aussies and Kiwis; I conduct a band [in Bristol] with Scottish, Irish, Welsh and English people heavily involved; I spend a night out every so often listening to reggae at the Plantation in Stokes Croft [in Bristol]. That is the way it has been for me, and I see nothing wrong with it.
Then again, my seeing nothing wrong with it doesn't mean I can say to other people - for instance @PeterGage - "what are you talking about? Why do you hold those views [e.g. that multiculturalism doesn't work outside of London]?" My personal incredulity doesn't mean I'm right (though of course it doesn't necessarily mean I'm wrong, either).
A lot of people in this thread appear to be making attacks on character, or discrediting other people's personal experiences, when they have not been through the same experiences themselves. This is incredibly fallacious. You cannot view the world through their lens, and they cannot view the world through yours.
--------
One quick note on something that seems to have been routinely ignored - just because English isn't necessarily a first language doesn't mean someone's not proficient in it. I can't speak for the statistics as I've not had the time to look through them properly, but I've not seen anything regarding proficiency in English as a second language. Can anyone shed light on this issue? A quick for-instance: if a fluent English speaker who lives in France comes over to the UK to settle, and considers her first language to be French, then French as a first language makes no practical difference but there's a statistical discrepancy there. (Yes, I'm talking about my best friend.)
How many people in Newham, then, where English is the first language for "only" 50-something percent of its residents, can in fact speak English to an acceptable level? How can we even judge this? (No, personal experience does not really count in this case, as one might be experiencing a statistical anomaly. The shop assistant incident in Tesco for example is probably anomalous, but I can't say definitively.)
--------
With regard to Peter, who I mentioned above, and his views on multiculturalism not working - I (and I'm sure most others here) disagree on the basis of personal experience, which I am acutely aware I've just said can't be discounted. So there's no point in talking much more about that.
I find it really interesting how you say that immigrants...
"create a mini class of the country from which they have just left - for Leicester, rename India; Bradford, Pakistan; East London, Bangladesh etc. Such areas are then turned into the slum areas from which the same people originated. This to me is the reality of life in some parts of the UK and it is not a situation that I think benefits that many people."
I'd like to take the example of Brick Lane. This has historically been the "landing point" for many immigrant groups into London: first the French Huguenots, then the Irish with Ashkenazi Jews, then Bangladeshi immigrants.
There appears to be historical precedent that immigration here has "worked" and other cultures have successfully integrated themselves into British society - so why do you think that the current trend of Bangladeshi immigration probably won't benefit many, and that this area is a slum? (Which from experience doesn't seem to be the case.)
What about, say, Irish immigration into Liverpool - for a non-London example, as I'm aware you said "multiculturalism doesn't work outside of London"?
I think that new peoples into countries always find it hard to settle in and are seen as a bit of an underclass because they come over with little to no resources. They need time to settle into the country, and their value to Britain is proved immeasurable eventually.
Oh, and I see your surname is of French/Norman origin (assuming Peter Gage is your real name). If multiculturalism didn't work, then you wouldn't have the name you do, which is really interesting.
Sorry, we haven't got room for well-thought out, articulate posts here. Go and take your sensible views somewhere else, they're not welcome here.
If I go to a foreign country I expect to hear languages different to my own and try to adapt accordingly.
However in my own country I expect to hear my own language and speak to people I can understand and who can understand me in my day to day dealings. I do not consider that unreasonable.
If that opinion makes me a racist in the eyes of the PC lobby then frankly my dear I don't give a damn.
If I go to a foreign country I expect to hear languages different to my own and try to adapt accordingly.
However in my own country I expect to hear my own language and speak to people I can understand and who can understand me in my day to day dealings. I do not consider that unreasonable.
If that opinion makes me a racist in the eyes of the PC lobby then frankly my dear I don't give a damn.
I don't think it makes you racist at all. A bit closed-minded, but not racist.
If I go to a foreign country I expect to hear languages different to my own and try to adapt accordingly.
However in my own country I expect to hear my own language and speak to people I can understand and who can understand me in my day to day dealings. I do not consider that unreasonable.
If that opinion makes me a racist in the eyes of the PC lobby then frankly my dear I don't give a damn.
I very much agree with this post. The R word will probably be thrown at you though it is 2014 after all.
I get the feeling Chizz would say it to someone who prefers white sugar over brown.
*Here comes the flag!!!!!
What Gary says essentially.
If someone from an ethnic minority considered my actions or words offensive then I would be mortified but white liberals trying to be thought police can do one.
I get the feeling Chizz would say it to someone who prefers white sugar over brown.
*Here comes the flag!!!!!
What Gary says essentially.
If someone from an ethnic minority considered my actions or words offensive then I would be mortified but white liberals trying to be thought police can do one.
I get the feeling Chizz would say it to someone who prefers white sugar over brown.
*Here comes the flag!!!!!
What Gary says essentially.
If someone from an ethnic minority considered my actions or words offensive then I would be mortified but white liberals trying to be thought police can do one.
I played in a friendly on Saturday against Meridian U21's, a team mostly made up of black lads. It wasnt the most physical of games but after about 80 mins both teams were getting tired and there was a couple of late tackles from our lads. I was wearing the armband and the ref called me over to ask our lads to calm down a bit. One of their players was trying to speak to ref, (basically complain) but cos the ref hadnt finished talking to me he ignored their player. Their kid says "you're racist ref"...now the ref took exception to this and explained the situation but you could see he was upset, but i thought if that was me i would have just laughed. It was that ridiculous it was funny.
Anyway, just an example of where i wouldn't give a damn if someone called me racist, when i know im not.
I get the feeling Chizz would say it to someone who prefers white sugar over brown.
*Here comes the flag!!!!!
Having just said "I don't think it makes you racist at all. A bit closed-minded, but not racist.", I think that's a bit unfair VG.
The whole thread started about English being a second language. It wasn't about people not speaking any English, or how well they spoke English or indeed where they spoke English. It has been taken in that direction by some people, which is what happens to internet discussions. Some of those people regularly pull threads of this nature in that direction because they want to re-iterate their opinion that foreigners are a problem in the UK. They may not say that outright, and often feign outrage when someone suggests that is their agenda, but anyone using this forum for any length of time, and with a modicum of intelligence can see who they are. Others then wish to counter that point of view - which happens on internet discussions, and they tend to be more honest about their agenda.
It's got nothing to do with "PC", that wonderful catch all expression used by frothers to justify their outrage. Who are these legendary PC lobbiers exactly? Just people who don't hold your (right wing) opinion usually, lets be honest. Nothing to do with not calling people of other races by insulting nicknames, or laughing at disabled or fat people at all is it? That's what political correctness is, and if you think that it's wrong then there's nothing any reasonable argument will do to change your mind, is there.
Sometimes I prefer to pretend I don't speak the local language, it's interesting to hear what people say, especially women about you or other nationalities. Likewise sometimes I like to pretend I speak the local language even when I really don't, just enough that I don't get ripped off.
I get the feeling Chizz would say it to someone who prefers white sugar over brown.
*Here comes the flag!!!!!
Having just said "I don't think it makes you racist at all. A bit closed-minded, but not racist.", I think that's a bit unfair VG.
The whole thread started about English being a second language. It wasn't about people not speaking any English, or how well they spoke English or indeed where they spoke English. It has been taken in that direction by some people, which is what happens to internet discussions. Some of those people regularly pull threads of this nature in that direction because they want to re-iterate their opinion that foreigners are a problem in the UK. They may not say that outright, and often feign outrage when someone suggests that is their agenda, but anyone using this forum for any length of time, and with a modicum of intelligence can see who they are. Others then wish to counter that point of view - which happens on internet discussions, and they tend to be more honest about their agenda.
It's got nothing to do with "PC", that wonderful catch all expression used by frothers to justify their outrage. Who are these legendary PC lobbiers exactly? Just people who don't hold your (right wing) opinion usually, lets be honest. Nothing to do with not calling people of other races by insulting nicknames, or laughing at disabled or fat people at all is it? That's what political correctness is, and if you think that it's wrong then there's nothing any reasonable argument will do to change your mind, is there.
lol I should have put a smiley, Chizz knows I'm only pulling his leg.
I get the feeling Chizz would say it to someone who prefers white sugar over brown.
*Here comes the flag!!!!!
What Gary says essentially.
If someone from an ethnic minority considered my actions or words offensive then I would be mortified but white liberals trying to be thought police can do one.
[NB the following comment relates to Britain, where ethnic minority refers to those who are non-white British]
So you don't believe a "white" person can, in any way, represent the interests of ethnic minorities? (Speaking of "white" - is your definition of white here white British, or Caucasian, or anyone who has a shade of skin not dissimilar to your own?)
To go for an example by analogy (I hope this isn't a false equivalence), I can't call out misogyny because I'm male, or class discrimination because my parents are both tertiary sector workers and because I'm of a private school education (and depending on your views there, attend a Russell Group university possibly directly because of this)?
I get the feeling Chizz would say it to someone who prefers white sugar over brown.
*Here comes the flag!!!!!
What Gary says essentially.
If someone from an ethnic minority considered my actions or words offensive then I would be mortified but white liberals trying to be thought police can do one.
So you discriminate on who calls you racist?
I discriminate based on what I and, if applicable, others perceive to be the motivation of my accuser.
I am originally a working class boy from SE 18 I was brought up to be polite and show respect to all people regardless of colour and creed whilst at the same time sticking up for myself if necessary.
I have family members from ethnic minorities and I'll take my stance on these issues from them rather than what white illiberal "liberals" with an agenda to stifle debate, which is what I mean by PC, think.
I get the feeling Chizz would say it to someone who prefers white sugar over brown.
*Here comes the flag!!!!!
What Gary says essentially.
If someone from an ethnic minority considered my actions or words offensive then I would be mortified but white liberals trying to be thought police can do one.
[NB the following comment relates to Britain, where ethnic minority refers to those who are non-white British]
So you don't believe a "white" person can, in any way, represent the interests of ethnic minorities? (Speaking of "white" - is your definition of white here white British, or Caucasian, or anyone who has a shade of skin not dissimilar to your own?)
To go for an example by analogy (I hope this isn't a false equivalence), I can't call out misogyny because I'm male, or class discrimination because my parents are both tertiary sector workers and because I'm of a private school education (and depending on your views there, attend a Russell Group university possibly directly because of this)?
Answered above before I saw this.
In summary it depends on the perceived motivation of the accuser as to whether it gets credence or not.
Unlike many of the PC Lobby I believe in free speech and debate.
Where is the Nepalese community in Greenwich mostly based? As a Greenwich borough resident I really struggle to believe that Nepalese is the second language in the borough.
The people who maintain the borough web site don't seem to be aware of this fact either.
I get the feeling Chizz would say it to someone who prefers white sugar over brown.
*Here comes the flag!!!!!
What Gary says essentially.
If someone from an ethnic minority considered my actions or words offensive then I would be mortified but white liberals trying to be thought police can do one.
[NB the following comment relates to Britain, where ethnic minority refers to those who are non-white British]
So you don't believe a "white" person can, in any way, represent the interests of ethnic minorities? (Speaking of "white" - is your definition of white here white British, or Caucasian, or anyone who has a shade of skin not dissimilar to your own?)
To go for an example by analogy (I hope this isn't a false equivalence), I can't call out misogyny because I'm male, or class discrimination because my parents are both tertiary sector workers and because I'm of a private school education (and depending on your views there, attend a Russell Group university possibly directly because of this)?
Answered above before I saw this.
In summary it depends on the perceived motivation of the accuser as to whether it gets credence or not.
Unlike many of the PC Lobby I believe in free speech and debate.
Who are they Len - just tell me - who are they... ;-)
I get the feeling Chizz would say it to someone who prefers white sugar over brown.
*Here comes the flag!!!!!
What Gary says essentially.
If someone from an ethnic minority considered my actions or words offensive then I would be mortified but white liberals trying to be thought police can do one.
[NB the following comment relates to Britain, where ethnic minority refers to those who are non-white British]
So you don't believe a "white" person can, in any way, represent the interests of ethnic minorities? (Speaking of "white" - is your definition of white here white British, or Caucasian, or anyone who has a shade of skin not dissimilar to your own?)
To go for an example by analogy (I hope this isn't a false equivalence), I can't call out misogyny because I'm male, or class discrimination because my parents are both tertiary sector workers and because I'm of a private school education (and depending on your views there, attend a Russell Group university possibly directly because of this)?
Answered above before I saw this.
In summary it depends on the perceived motivation of the accuser as to whether it gets credence or not.
Unlike many of the PC Lobby I believe in free speech and debate.
Who are they Len - just tell me - who are they... ;-)
Reluctant to answer for fear of dragging the thread away from topic but in essence faceless officials in local authorities, as exemplified by recent events, and anybody who seeks to stifle legitimate debate.
I get the feeling Chizz would say it to someone who prefers white sugar over brown.
*Here comes the flag!!!!!
What Gary says essentially.
If someone from an ethnic minority considered my actions or words offensive then I would be mortified but white liberals trying to be thought police can do one.
[NB the following comment relates to Britain, where ethnic minority refers to those who are non-white British]
So you don't believe a "white" person can, in any way, represent the interests of ethnic minorities? (Speaking of "white" - is your definition of white here white British, or Caucasian, or anyone who has a shade of skin not dissimilar to your own?)
To go for an example by analogy (I hope this isn't a false equivalence), I can't call out misogyny because I'm male, or class discrimination because my parents are both tertiary sector workers and because I'm of a private school education (and depending on your views there, attend a Russell Group university possibly directly because of this)?
Answered above before I saw this.
In summary it depends on the perceived motivation of the accuser as to whether it gets credence or not.
Unlike many of the PC Lobby I believe in free speech and debate.
So you're saying that white people can, on occasion, represent the interests of ethnic minorities, but only when you consider that this is the case?
So, you are still in effect picking and choosing which people can call out anything offensive, and (this is an extrapolation and I could well be wrong) that depends on whether you agree with their reasoning?
Also - what did you mean by white? And you didn't answer me on the other callings-out...
I don't have an opinion on the thread topic as such. However, I'm always struck how, during such topics, the posters who oppose multi-culturalism/multi linguistics etc, are always treated in a condescending manner by those who agree with it.
Mind you, I haven't read past page 1, mainly for the above reason.
In response to Paddy 17: (The quote box is getting full!)
I have no problem in principle with white people representing the interests of ethnic minorities in the same way as I have no problem in principle with people from ethnic minorities, my present MP being an example, representing my, part of the ethnic majority if there is such a phrase, interests. However I would expect to be able to criticise him if I am dissatisfied with his performance without being labelled a racist.
My point about white people was that some will use the label 'racist' or similar where inappropiate to stifle debate and further their own political agendas and it is those I reject and refer to above. Gordon Brown 'bigot' syndrome if that clarifies things at all.
If that is "picking and choosing" then guilty as charged.
As regards your point re various shades of white I suppose I am talking about the majority "shade" one sees although I've not really looked at the issue in terms of different shades of white I admit. I'll let you define it from there.
i think people on here need to go on some good old Ethnicity and Diversity training (obviously that would only be the whiteys and all the Little Englanders)
Where is the Nepalese community in Greenwich mostly based? As a Greenwich borough resident I really struggle to believe that Nepalese is the second language in the borough.
The people who maintain the borough web site don't seem to be aware of this fact either.
In response to Paddy 17: (The quote box is getting full!)
I have no problem in principle with white people representing the interests of ethnic minorities in the same way as I have no problem in principle with people from ethnic minorities, my present MP being an example, representing my, part of the ethnic majority if there is such a phrase, interests. However I would expect to be able to criticise him if I am dissatisfied with his performance without being labelled a racist.
My point about white people was that some will use the label 'racist' or similar where inappropiate to stifle debate and further their own political agendas and it is those I reject and refer to above. Gordon Brown 'bigot' syndrome if that clarifies things at all.
If that is "picking and choosing" then guilty as charged.
As regards your point re various shades of white I suppose I am talking about the majority "shade" one sees although I've not really looked at the issue in terms of different shades of white I admit. I'll let you define it from there.
First, in response to PL54's quote, I really haven't meant to be condescending. I write like I do (i.e. step-by-step) for my own sake, and I apologise if that happens to be disagreeable.
I think it's fair enough to have that expectation, Len. As long as there isn't a suggestion that, say, he's inferior at his job because he's of a minority ethnic background. Similarly, if an MP happened to be female, a constituent has every right to be critical but to suggest it's because of their gender would be unacceptable.
I don't think anyone's calling anyone a racist (overtly), and if anything from observation it's those with "right-wing" (?? - excuse my terminology) agendas saying the "PC brigade" are calling others racist. Which hasn't been the case, in my opinion. Could be wrong though.
Fair enough, yeah I would've taken it to mean White British too. Just like clarification because some people hold other views.
(NB I love all this sort of discourse, it's great)
An interesting debate which has made for interesting reading. I'd like to add my couple of quid's worth to it.
I work in a school and teach GCSE English to 15 and 16 year olds. The group I teach is made up of 20 pupils. This includes four pupils who have a statement of special needs. It includes pupils who have behaviour and other learning needs. It includes five pupils who joined the school in year 10. None had any experience of English before coming to England and joining the school. One is Algerian. One is Polish. One is Portuguese. One is Lithuanian and one Eritrean.
My job is to get them a GCSE in English Language and English Literature. I have to teach the intricacies of formal and informal language. For example compare the language used by Jamie Oliver and Nigella Lawson. How does such language represent them and their upbringing? Who is their target audience? How does direction and production of their programmes create an impression of who they are?
They have to understand the nuances, subtleties and inferences of different poems. They have to consider the writings of Steinbeck, Harper Lee etc. And if course read, comprehend and explain the works of Shakespeare.
But I love it. And working with EAL students is mindblowing. I find their attitude to learning, to bettering themselves, to making something of the opportunity our education system can give them totally refreshing. Particularly when compared to 'indigenous' folk who display attitudes which totally oppose this. The pride in seeing their English develop, the differences and similarities in different languages that they discover, the moment they produce a piece of work that makes a smile spread across my face.
They are desperate to fit in. They want to speak English and to be able to write, converse, argue, debate and discuss in English. But it takes time. It take effort and energy. It is a challenge. So, at times non English speakers slip back into the comfort zone of something they know well and makes them feel more comfortable. Their own language.
Some of you will read this and thinks it's bollocks. Some will have a passing interest. I probably can't really explain why I've felt the need to write what is, in essence, a bit of self indulgent tosh.
Hopefully it gives a context to my beliefs. I grew up in London. I work in London. I love London for many reasons. One if them is the people. The diversity of people. The different shops, the different customs and codes of dress. And the different languages. I don't get this attitude of needing to hear people speaking in English. Why?
Instead enjoy differences and don't be threatened by them. Embrace change and what it can provide for you. Encourage and foster relationships with other people different to yourself because you will learn a lot more form them than what you can teach them.
And part of me thinks if living in London is so bad that you had to move away to a nice , white, middle class town, then fair enough, I don't criticise you for it. ButI think you're missing out.
Comments
PS. Sorry to all the other posters that this has gone off the topic.
My two cents, for what it's worth. - Well, I say that, this isn't even my opinion on things, but more my opinion on having an opinion on the matter, if that makes sense (and I hope it's going to once you've read my whole post).
I'm half-Chinese (mum), quarter-English, quarter-Irish (dad), with Dutch (mum) and Lithuanian (probably - Seth, correct me if I'm wrong) roots through ancestors. I've lived in the London Borough of Lewisham - specifically Lee - all my life, except for the last two years, where I've been at the University of Bristol.
In that time, I've grown up with friends of so many different cultures/nationalities/so on. My best friend is half-French [attends Bristol]; I was in A Level classes [in London] with an American, Nigerians, Afro-Caribbeans, Poles, those from the Asian Subcontinent and so on; I play cricket with Aussies and Kiwis; I conduct a band [in Bristol] with Scottish, Irish, Welsh and English people heavily involved; I spend a night out every so often listening to reggae at the Plantation in Stokes Croft [in Bristol]. That is the way it has been for me, and I see nothing wrong with it.
Then again, my seeing nothing wrong with it doesn't mean I can say to other people - for instance @PeterGage - "what are you talking about? Why do you hold those views [e.g. that multiculturalism doesn't work outside of London]?" My personal incredulity doesn't mean I'm right (though of course it doesn't necessarily mean I'm wrong, either).
A lot of people in this thread appear to be making attacks on character, or discrediting other people's personal experiences, when they have not been through the same experiences themselves. This is incredibly fallacious. You cannot view the world through their lens, and they cannot view the world through yours.
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One quick note on something that seems to have been routinely ignored - just because English isn't necessarily a first language doesn't mean someone's not proficient in it. I can't speak for the statistics as I've not had the time to look through them properly, but I've not seen anything regarding proficiency in English as a second language. Can anyone shed light on this issue? A quick for-instance: if a fluent English speaker who lives in France comes over to the UK to settle, and considers her first language to be French, then French as a first language makes no practical difference but there's a statistical discrepancy there. (Yes, I'm talking about my best friend.)
How many people in Newham, then, where English is the first language for "only" 50-something percent of its residents, can in fact speak English to an acceptable level? How can we even judge this? (No, personal experience does not really count in this case, as one might be experiencing a statistical anomaly. The shop assistant incident in Tesco for example is probably anomalous, but I can't say definitively.)
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With regard to Peter, who I mentioned above, and his views on multiculturalism not working - I (and I'm sure most others here) disagree on the basis of personal experience, which I am acutely aware I've just said can't be discounted. So there's no point in talking much more about that.
I find it really interesting how you say that immigrants... I'd like to take the example of Brick Lane. This has historically been the "landing point" for many immigrant groups into London: first the French Huguenots, then the Irish with Ashkenazi Jews, then Bangladeshi immigrants.
There appears to be historical precedent that immigration here has "worked" and other cultures have successfully integrated themselves into British society - so why do you think that the current trend of Bangladeshi immigration probably won't benefit many, and that this area is a slum? (Which from experience doesn't seem to be the case.)
What about, say, Irish immigration into Liverpool - for a non-London example, as I'm aware you said "multiculturalism doesn't work outside of London"?
I think that new peoples into countries always find it hard to settle in and are seen as a bit of an underclass because they come over with little to no resources. They need time to settle into the country, and their value to Britain is proved immeasurable eventually.
Oh, and I see your surname is of French/Norman origin (assuming Peter Gage is your real name). If multiculturalism didn't work, then you wouldn't have the name you do, which is really interesting.
My initial thought was bloody good job too, then when you do think about it, your more poking the hornets nest with a stick than solving the problem
You make it harder to hide that's for sure
But you make more angry and feeling suppressed and segregated and ridiculed in a way
To have the posters that show how a Muslim should look is the same as saying I am an over weight white 6ft skin head who buys his clothes from mercs covent Garden so I must be Edl or C18
When I am neither I also dispise section 27 that pigeon holes most supporters on away days
China is unique as there is an element of belief within your culture from your empire and political bodies
But you are choosing to hit a problem head on and in a way many here would choose to do, it will be interesting to watch it unfold
Stay safe in China as I think you need to be very vigilant in the forth coming months
No tiger hunting eh stu
There appears to be historical precedent that immigration here has "worked" and other cultures have successfully integrated themselves into British society - so why do you think that the current trend of Bangladeshi immigration probably won't benefit many, and that this area is a slum? (Which from experience doesn't seem to be the case.)
What about, say, Irish immigration into Liverpool - for a non-London example, as I'm aware you said "multiculturalism doesn't work outside of London"?
I think that new peoples into countries always find it hard to settle in and are seen as a bit of an underclass because they come over with little to no resources. They need time to settle into the country, and their value to Britain is proved immeasurable eventually.
Oh, and I see your surname is of French/Norman origin (assuming Peter Gage is your real name). If multiculturalism didn't work, then you wouldn't have the name you do, which is really interesting.
Sorry, we haven't got room for well-thought out, articulate posts here. Go and take your sensible views somewhere else, they're not welcome here.
;-)
However in my own country I expect to hear my own language and speak to people I can understand and who can understand me in my day to day dealings. I do not consider that unreasonable.
If that opinion makes me a racist in the eyes of the PC lobby then frankly my dear I don't give a damn.
I would.
I get the feeling Chizz would say it to someone who prefers white sugar over brown.
*Here comes the flag!!!!!
If someone from an ethnic minority considered my actions or words offensive then I would be mortified but white liberals trying to be thought police can do one.
Anyway, just an example of where i wouldn't give a damn if someone called me racist, when i know im not.
The whole thread started about English being a second language. It wasn't about people not speaking any English, or how well they spoke English or indeed where they spoke English. It has been taken in that direction by some people, which is what happens to internet discussions. Some of those people regularly pull threads of this nature in that direction because they want to re-iterate their opinion that foreigners are a problem in the UK. They may not say that outright, and often feign outrage when someone suggests that is their agenda, but anyone using this forum for any length of time, and with a modicum of intelligence can see who they are. Others then wish to counter that point of view - which happens on internet discussions, and they tend to be more honest about their agenda.
It's got nothing to do with "PC", that wonderful catch all expression used by frothers to justify their outrage. Who are these legendary PC lobbiers exactly? Just people who don't hold your (right wing) opinion usually, lets be honest. Nothing to do with not calling people of other races by insulting nicknames, or laughing at disabled or fat people at all is it? That's what political correctness is, and if you think that it's wrong then there's nothing any reasonable argument will do to change your mind, is there.
Likewise sometimes I like to pretend I speak the local language even when I really don't, just enough that I don't get ripped off.
So you don't believe a "white" person can, in any way, represent the interests of ethnic minorities? (Speaking of "white" - is your definition of white here white British, or Caucasian, or anyone who has a shade of skin not dissimilar to your own?)
To go for an example by analogy (I hope this isn't a false equivalence), I can't call out misogyny because I'm male, or class discrimination because my parents are both tertiary sector workers and because I'm of a private school education (and depending on your views there, attend a Russell Group university possibly directly because of this)?
I am originally a working class boy from SE 18 I was brought up to be polite and show respect to all people regardless of colour and creed whilst at the same time sticking up for myself if necessary.
I have family members from ethnic minorities and I'll take my stance on these issues from them rather than what white illiberal "liberals" with an agenda to stifle debate, which is what I mean by PC, think.
In summary it depends on the perceived motivation of the accuser as to whether it gets credence or not.
Unlike many of the PC Lobby I believe in free speech and debate.
Get yourself down to Plumstead, Abbey Wood and Thamesmead Red. Very handy if you want your shopping carried.
So, you are still in effect picking and choosing which people can call out anything offensive, and (this is an extrapolation and I could well be wrong) that depends on whether you agree with their reasoning?
Also - what did you mean by white? And you didn't answer me on the other callings-out...
I have no problem in principle with white people representing the interests of ethnic minorities in the same way as I have no problem in principle with people from ethnic minorities, my present MP being an example, representing my, part of the ethnic majority if there is such a phrase, interests. However I would expect to be able to criticise him if I am dissatisfied with his performance without being labelled a racist.
My point about white people was that some will use the label 'racist' or similar where inappropiate to stifle debate and further their own political agendas and it is those I reject and refer to above. Gordon Brown 'bigot' syndrome if that clarifies things at all.
If that is "picking and choosing" then guilty as charged.
As regards your point re various shades of white I suppose I am talking about the majority "shade" one sees although I've not really looked at the issue in terms of different shades of white I admit. I'll let you define it from there.
I think it's fair enough to have that expectation, Len. As long as there isn't a suggestion that, say, he's inferior at his job because he's of a minority ethnic background. Similarly, if an MP happened to be female, a constituent has every right to be critical but to suggest it's because of their gender would be unacceptable.
I don't think anyone's calling anyone a racist (overtly), and if anything from observation it's those with "right-wing" (?? - excuse my terminology) agendas saying the "PC brigade" are calling others racist. Which hasn't been the case, in my opinion. Could be wrong though.
Fair enough, yeah I would've taken it to mean White British too. Just like clarification because some people hold other views.
(NB I love all this sort of discourse, it's great)
I work in a school and teach GCSE English to 15 and 16 year olds. The group I teach is made up of 20 pupils. This includes four pupils who have a statement of special needs. It includes pupils who have behaviour and other learning needs. It includes five pupils who joined the school in year 10. None had any experience of English before coming to England and joining the school. One is Algerian. One is Polish. One is Portuguese. One is Lithuanian and one Eritrean.
My job is to get them a GCSE in English Language and English Literature. I have to teach the intricacies of formal and informal language. For example compare the language used by Jamie Oliver and Nigella Lawson. How does such language represent them and their upbringing? Who is their target audience? How does direction and production of their programmes create an impression of who they are?
They have to understand the nuances, subtleties and inferences of different poems. They have to consider the writings of Steinbeck, Harper Lee etc. And if course read, comprehend and explain the works of Shakespeare.
But I love it. And working with EAL students is mindblowing. I find their attitude to learning, to bettering themselves, to making something of the opportunity our education system can give them totally refreshing. Particularly when compared to 'indigenous' folk who display attitudes which totally oppose this. The pride in seeing their English develop, the differences and similarities in different languages that they discover, the moment they produce a piece of work that makes a smile spread across my face.
They are desperate to fit in. They want to speak English and to be able to write, converse, argue, debate and discuss in English. But it takes time. It take effort and energy. It is a challenge. So, at times non English speakers slip back into the comfort zone of something they know well and makes them feel more comfortable. Their own language.
Some of you will read this and thinks it's bollocks. Some will have a passing interest. I probably can't really explain why I've felt the need to write what is, in essence, a bit of self indulgent tosh.
Hopefully it gives a context to my beliefs. I grew up in London. I work in London. I love London for many reasons. One if them is the people. The diversity of people. The different shops, the different customs and codes of dress. And the different languages. I don't get this attitude of needing to hear people speaking in English. Why?
Instead enjoy differences and don't be threatened by them. Embrace change and what it can provide for you. Encourage and foster relationships with other people different to yourself because you will learn a lot more form them than what you can teach them.
And part of me thinks if living in London is so bad that you had to move away to a nice , white, middle class town, then fair enough, I don't criticise you for it. ButI think you're missing out.