According to TalkShite this morning she settled for lifetime salary earnings until age 60 on the basis of mitigation against the risk that the past events have rendered her unemployable. No idea if that's true but if it is she's 42 I think so 18 years times whatever wedge she was on at Chelsea. Yum.
A blatant and disgusting case of sexism and stupidity. The fact that the British media didn't seem to "turn on him" until the results went bad, as opposed to after this disgusting affair, is ridiculous.
When I think of the real victims of sexism that exists in the world today, especially in Muslim countries, I find this over the top reaction a little bit offensive. As Bill Maher often says, a lot of today's PC Liberals have lost the power of independent and rational thought. They speak and think using tired and irrelevant labels and memes.
I'd encourage you to read on in the exchange between @thenewbie and I, and perhaps see if that paints a different picture. @thenewbie made a somewhat similar point, without bringing the words "Bill Maher" or "PC Liberal" into it . I ended by saying that I retract this statement, and instead say it was a disgusting affair, which had the feelings of sexist undertones, intentionally or otherwise.
The thing I would add directly to your complaint is that Muslim countries do not provide the benchmark for sexism. They undertake awful, disgusting sexism, but there is sexism aplenty in the western world as well. I would liken this to saying that just because someone in South Sudan is more impoverished than someone in the US, that does not make it morally acceptable that someone in the richest country on earth is impoverished. If anything, I'd contend that because we look to others as providing such horrible examples, we should be striving to clean our own house first.
A blatant and disgusting case of sexism and stupidity. The fact that the British media didn't seem to "turn on him" until the results went bad, as opposed to after this disgusting affair, is ridiculous.
When I think of the real victims of sexism that exists in the world today, especially in Muslim countries, I find this over the top reaction a little bit offensive. As Bill Maher often says, a lot of today's PC Liberals have lost the power of independent and rational thought. They speak and think using tired and irrelevant labels and memes.
I'd encourage you to read on in the exchange between @thenewbie and I, and perhaps see if that paints a different picture. @thenewbie made a somewhat similar point, without bringing the words "Bill Maher" or "PC Liberal" into it . I ended by saying that I retract this statement, and instead say it was a disgusting affair, which had the feelings of sexist undertones, intentionally or otherwise.
The thing I would add directly to your complaint is that Muslim countries do not provide the benchmark for sexism. They undertake awful, disgusting sexism, but there is sexism aplenty in the western world as well. I would liken this to saying that just because someone in South Sudan is more impoverished than someone in the US, that does not make it morally acceptable that someone in the richest country on earth is impoverished. If anything, I'd contend that because we look to others as providing such horrible examples, we should be striving to clean our own house first.
Curious to hear your thoughts though.
I had not picked up on your retraction. But I stand by my reaction to the tone of that post before you retracted it. I think it is important that comments like these are challenged robustly.
She had been prominently featured in Chelsea's medical back room staff and on the bench on match days for 7 or 8 years. I am not aware of any football club that has achieved this level of gender equality to this day. The idea that of all the football clubs in the UK Chelsea should be accused of sexism is laughable. The facts just do not support it.
This whole fiasco was whipped up by the same tabloid press that is always looking for opportunities to launch gratuitous attacks on premiership clubs and premiership players, particularly white English working class players like John Terry and Wayne Rooney.
Football managers have always ranted and raved at tense moments during big matches. They are human and, by the nature of their job, will be partisan and irrational at these times. The targets of their rants range from the Ref, linesmen, opposing players, their own players, opposing managers, ball boys, and in this case their own medical staff. None of it would be acceptable outside the cauldron of the sporting arena. Mourinho completely lost it and raged against her and her male colleague. If she had been male it would have made no difference to how he reacted. There was no sexism here. Not in a million years.
Reading my original post again I realise I had not the made point about real sexism clearly enough. When I referred to the victims of real sexism I don't just mean women living in the Muslim world, I also mean the many thousands of women living in our society today, in the Muslim and some Jewish communities in the UK. Everyday these women are victims of disgusting sexism. But we turn a blind eye because we don't want to offend religious communities.
A blatant and disgusting case of sexism and stupidity. The fact that the British media didn't seem to "turn on him" until the results went bad, as opposed to after this disgusting affair, is ridiculous.
When I think of the real victims of sexism that exists in the world today, especially in Muslim countries, I find this over the top reaction a little bit offensive. As Bill Maher often says, a lot of today's PC Liberals have lost the power of independent and rational thought. They speak and think using tired and irrelevant labels and memes.
I'd encourage you to read on in the exchange between @thenewbie and I, and perhaps see if that paints a different picture. @thenewbie made a somewhat similar point, without bringing the words "Bill Maher" or "PC Liberal" into it . I ended by saying that I retract this statement, and instead say it was a disgusting affair, which had the feelings of sexist undertones, intentionally or otherwise.
The thing I would add directly to your complaint is that Muslim countries do not provide the benchmark for sexism. They undertake awful, disgusting sexism, but there is sexism aplenty in the western world as well. I would liken this to saying that just because someone in South Sudan is more impoverished than someone in the US, that does not make it morally acceptable that someone in the richest country on earth is impoverished. If anything, I'd contend that because we look to others as providing such horrible examples, we should be striving to clean our own house first.
Curious to hear your thoughts though.
I had not picked up on your retraction. But I stand by my reaction to the tone of that post before you retracted it. I think it is important that comments like these are challenged robustly.
She had been prominently featured in Chelsea's medical back room staff and on the bench on match days for 7 or 8 years. I am not aware of any football club that has achieved this level of gender equality to this day. The idea that of all the football clubs in the UK Chelsea should be accused of sexism is laughable. The facts just do not support it.
This whole fiasco was whipped up by the same tabloid press that is always looking for opportunities to launch gratuitous attacks on premiership clubs and premiership players, particularly white English working class players like John Terry and Wayne Rooney.
Football managers have always ranted and raved at tense moments during big matches. They are human and, by the nature of their job, will be partisan and irrational at these times. The targets of their rants range from the Ref, linesmen, opposing players, their own players, opposing managers, ball boys, and in this case their own medical staff. None of it would be acceptable outside the cauldron of the sporting arena. Mourinho completely lost it and raged against her and her male colleague. If she had been male it would have made no difference to how he reacted. There was no sexism here. Not in a million years.
Reading my original post again I realise I had not the made point about real sexism clearly enough. When I referred to the victims of real sexism I don't just mean women living in the Muslim world, I also mean the many thousands of women living in our society today, in the Muslim and some Jewish communities in the UK. Everyday these women are victims of disgusting sexism. But we turn a blind eye because we don't want to offend religious communities.
Fair, and I would never question your for challenging my assumptions, and I tried to be forthright, admittedly in the follow-up, of saying this has a feeling of sexism, but tried to be open to the dissection of it.
I'd take issue by saying that, because Chelsea have a female doctor, and have had one for 7-8 years, that they are somehow bastions of equality, or immune from sexism, is overkill. I think every club should be challenged for the number of females they employ, particularly in regards to leadership and football-related positions. This is by no means unique to football of course.
As for the "Manager Rant" thing, Newbie made a similar point and it's where I don't necessarily disagree. I think it's a stupid, awful offshoot of footballing culture, that it's lazy and manipulative, but all of this is really another conversation. I agree that those who are victim of the "manager rant/mind game" are far and wide, and it's by no means inconceivable to me that this would have happened for a male or female doctor.
As for religious communities being a large, driving source of not talking about sexism, I completely, completely disagree, I say this as a staunch Atheist, who is culturally Jewish and half Christian by blood. I think there are many, many societal and cultural "privilege" factors that contribute to sexism long before you get into minority or marginalized communities, such as strict Muslim, Jewish, or Christian cultures. Think this is something worthy of a different thread, though it's an interesting discussion.
I strongly feel that if we are serious about sexism in our society we have an obligation to track it and eradicate it in these religious communities.
I agree with your comment about the many societal and privilege factors that contribute to sexism in the wider community. I stayed up until 4.30 this morning in order to catch Hilary Clinton's momentous victory speech. Whilst we should be ever vigilant about the subtle cultural racism and sexism that still crops up in our society we in the western modern secular world should remember, and maybe congratulate ourselves, for the tremendous strides we have made in the last 50 years on these issues.
Not only are we failing to tackle sexism in Muslim communities (including FGM, forced marriage and worse) but by allowing Sharia courts to operate, we are condoning it.
While there are undoubtedly lots of different councils and tribunals dealing with Sharia principles, they aren't courts of law.
Most are Sharia 'councils' set up to make decisions on purely religious matters, although there are some bodies that mix Sharia principles with legally binding arbitration. But none can overrule the regular courts.
While there are undoubtedly lots of different councils and tribunals dealing with Sharia principles, they aren't courts of law.
Most are Sharia 'councils' set up to make decisions on purely religious matters, although there are some bodies that mix Sharia principles with legally binding arbitration. But none can overrule the regular courts.
Same is true of the US, although this line gets trotted out all the time by our Daily Mail equivalents.
It's not that I'm too lazy to Google, it's that I have seen zero verifiable proof of Sharia Law being used to run and/or supercede courts of law, as mentioned above. I can, however, find a lot of rumor, conjecture, and scare mongering.
Do you believe Muslim women are given the choice between Sharia courts or a UK divorce court? Saudi is the foremost influence on Islam and women can't drive cars. Stoning women to death for being raped is widespread, and they have just been excused from murdering Yemeni children by the UN for "lack of evidence".
Do you believe Muslim women are given the choice between Sharia courts or a UK divorce court? Saudi is the foremost influence on Islam and women can't drive cars. Stoning women to death for being raped is widespread, and they have just been excused from murdering Yemeni children by the UN for "lack of evidence".
Within Saudi Arabia, I think they use the house of Saud's version of "Sharia Law," yes. Within the UK, no, I do not believe that applies at all. Keep in mind that outside (and within to some extent) Saudi Arabia, the royal family are not particularly well liked. I believe that they have very, very, very little influence over people in the UK.
That said, they commit human rights atrocities, you will get no argument for me here.
Please do explain how we've gone from whether or not Jose Mourinho's comments on Dr. Eva Carneiro were sexist to the topic of sexism within religious communities...to human rights atrocities committed by the Saudi government. Saying "Look at what the Muslims/foreigners/other countries are doing" is no excuse for sexism of any form, nor is it an excuse for bullying, wrongful dismissal, slander, etc. I have to say I'm somewhat perplexed here...
Do you believe Muslim women are given the choice between Sharia courts or a UK divorce court? Saudi is the foremost influence on Islam and women can't drive cars. Stoning women to death for being raped is widespread, and they have just been excused from murdering Yemeni children by the UN for "lack of evidence".
Within Saudi Arabia, I think they use the house of Saud's version of "Sharia Law," yes. Within the UK, no, I do not believe that applies at all. Keep in mind that outside (and within to some extent) Saudi Arabia, the royal family are not particularly well liked. I believe that they have very, very, very little influence over people in the UK.
That said, they commit human rights atrocities, you will get no argument for me here.
Please do explain how we've gone from whether or not Jose Mourinho's comments on Dr. Eva Carneiro were sexist to the topic of sexism within religious communities...to human rights atrocities committed by the Saudi government. Saying "Look at what the Muslims/foreigners/other countries are doing" is no excuse for sexism of any form, nor is it an excuse for bullying, wrongful dismissal, slander, etc. I have to say I'm somewhat perplexed here...
We got there when I objected to you claiming that she was the victim of disgusting sexism. Albeit, you had retracted the 'disgusting' bit by the time I made my post. The point I was making is that if what she was subjected to can be labelled 'disgusting' what is the appropriate adjective to use to describe the violent medieval sexism that woman living in Muslim communities in the UK are subjected to every day? And don't we have a duty of care to protect these women?
Do you believe Muslim women are given the choice between Sharia courts or a UK divorce court? Saudi is the foremost influence on Islam and women can't drive cars. Stoning women to death for being raped is widespread, and they have just been excused from murdering Yemeni children by the UN for "lack of evidence".
Within Saudi Arabia, I think they use the house of Saud's version of "Sharia Law," yes. Within the UK, no, I do not believe that applies at all. Keep in mind that outside (and within to some extent) Saudi Arabia, the royal family are not particularly well liked. I believe that they have very, very, very little influence over people in the UK.
That said, they commit human rights atrocities, you will get no argument for me here.
Please do explain how we've gone from whether or not Jose Mourinho's comments on Dr. Eva Carneiro were sexist to the topic of sexism within religious communities...to human rights atrocities committed by the Saudi government. Saying "Look at what the Muslims/foreigners/other countries are doing" is no excuse for sexism of any form, nor is it an excuse for bullying, wrongful dismissal, slander, etc. I have to say I'm somewhat perplexed here...
We got there when I objected to you claiming that she was the victim of disgusting sexism. Albeit, you had retracted the 'disgusting' bit by the time I made my post. The point I was making is that if what she was subjected to can be labelled 'disgusting' what is the appropriate adjective to use to describe the violent medieval sexism that woman living in Muslim communities in the UK are subjected to every day? And don't we have a duty of care to protect these women?
Sexism is disgusting full stop. So is racism, anti-Semitism, homophobia... discrimination of any kind really. Jose Mourinho shouldn't be excused from the repercussions of his comments because a bunch of Saudis are medieval morons.
According to TalkShite this morning she settled for lifetime salary earnings until age 60 on the basis of mitigation against the risk that the past events have rendered her unemployable. No idea if that's true but if it is she's 42 I think so 18 years times whatever wedge she was on at Chelsea. Yum.
Do you believe Muslim women are given the choice between Sharia courts or a UK divorce court? Saudi is the foremost influence on Islam and women can't drive cars. Stoning women to death for being raped is widespread, and they have just been excused from murdering Yemeni children by the UN for "lack of evidence".
Within Saudi Arabia, I think they use the house of Saud's version of "Sharia Law," yes. Within the UK, no, I do not believe that applies at all. Keep in mind that outside (and within to some extent) Saudi Arabia, the royal family are not particularly well liked. I believe that they have very, very, very little influence over people in the UK.
That said, they commit human rights atrocities, you will get no argument for me here.
Please do explain how we've gone from whether or not Jose Mourinho's comments on Dr. Eva Carneiro were sexist to the topic of sexism within religious communities...to human rights atrocities committed by the Saudi government. Saying "Look at what the Muslims/foreigners/other countries are doing" is no excuse for sexism of any form, nor is it an excuse for bullying, wrongful dismissal, slander, etc. I have to say I'm somewhat perplexed here...
We got there when I objected to you claiming that she was the victim of disgusting sexism. Albeit, you had retracted the 'disgusting' bit by the time I made my post. The point I was making is that if what she was subjected to can be labelled 'disgusting' what is the appropriate adjective to use to describe the violent medieval sexism that woman living in Muslim communities in the UK are subjected to every day? And don't we have a duty of care to protect these women?
Sexism is disgusting full stop. So is racism, anti-Semitism, homophobia... discrimination of any kind really. Jose Mourinho shouldn't be excused from the repercussions of his comments because a bunch of Saudis are medieval morons.
Do you believe Muslim women are given the choice between Sharia courts or a UK divorce court? Saudi is the foremost influence on Islam and women can't drive cars. Stoning women to death for being raped is widespread, and they have just been excused from murdering Yemeni children by the UN for "lack of evidence".
Within Saudi Arabia, I think they use the house of Saud's version of "Sharia Law," yes. Within the UK, no, I do not believe that applies at all. Keep in mind that outside (and within to some extent) Saudi Arabia, the royal family are not particularly well liked. I believe that they have very, very, very little influence over people in the UK.
That said, they commit human rights atrocities, you will get no argument for me here.
Please do explain how we've gone from whether or not Jose Mourinho's comments on Dr. Eva Carneiro were sexist to the topic of sexism within religious communities...to human rights atrocities committed by the Saudi government. Saying "Look at what the Muslims/foreigners/other countries are doing" is no excuse for sexism of any form, nor is it an excuse for bullying, wrongful dismissal, slander, etc. I have to say I'm somewhat perplexed here...
We got there when I objected to you claiming that she was the victim of disgusting sexism. Albeit, you had retracted the 'disgusting' bit by the time I made my post. The point I was making is that if what she was subjected to can be labelled 'disgusting' what is the appropriate adjective to use to describe the violent medieval sexism that woman living in Muslim communities in the UK are subjected to every day? And don't we have a duty of care to protect these women?
But again, this is a straw man argument of "look that is worse." Albeit true, it doesn't excuse sexism that isn't in the form of stonings, FGM, etc.
It seems that there is often a desire to pull conversations toward Muslim societies (because let's not kid ourselves, no one is using Jewish or Christian examples here except me) which is, in my experience, often a sign of prejudice against a group that makes up less than 1% of the population of my country and around 5% of the UK. The US has a higher population of felons, and I suspect the Muslim populations' size competes with that of overall men accused of sexual harassment, assault, etc. And yet comparisons were immediately drawn to Muslims...
Comments
Lucky Mr Carneiro.
The first ever female club doctor/CEO dual role....
The thing I would add directly to your complaint is that Muslim countries do not provide the benchmark for sexism. They undertake awful, disgusting sexism, but there is sexism aplenty in the western world as well. I would liken this to saying that just because someone in South Sudan is more impoverished than someone in the US, that does not make it morally acceptable that someone in the richest country on earth is impoverished. If anything, I'd contend that because we look to others as providing such horrible examples, we should be striving to clean our own house first.
Curious to hear your thoughts though.
She had been prominently featured in Chelsea's medical back room staff and on the bench on match days for 7 or 8 years. I am not aware of any football club that has achieved this level of gender equality to this day. The idea that of all the football clubs in the UK Chelsea should be accused of sexism is laughable. The facts just do not support it.
This whole fiasco was whipped up by the same tabloid press that is always looking for opportunities to launch gratuitous attacks on premiership clubs and premiership players, particularly white English working class players like John Terry and Wayne Rooney.
Football managers have always ranted and raved at tense moments during big matches. They are human and, by the nature of their job, will be partisan and irrational at these times. The targets of their rants range from the Ref, linesmen, opposing players, their own players, opposing managers, ball boys, and in this case their own medical staff. None of it would be acceptable outside the cauldron of the sporting arena. Mourinho completely lost it and raged against her and her male colleague. If she had been male it would have made no difference to how he reacted. There was no sexism here. Not in a million years.
Reading my original post again I realise I had not the made point about real sexism clearly enough. When I referred to the victims of real sexism I don't just mean women living in the Muslim world, I also mean the many thousands of women living in our society today, in the Muslim and some Jewish communities in the UK. Everyday these women are victims of disgusting sexism. But we turn a blind eye because we don't want to offend religious communities.
I'd take issue by saying that, because Chelsea have a female doctor, and have had one for 7-8 years, that they are somehow bastions of equality, or immune from sexism, is overkill. I think every club should be challenged for the number of females they employ, particularly in regards to leadership and football-related positions. This is by no means unique to football of course.
As for the "Manager Rant" thing, Newbie made a similar point and it's where I don't necessarily disagree. I think it's a stupid, awful offshoot of footballing culture, that it's lazy and manipulative, but all of this is really another conversation. I agree that those who are victim of the "manager rant/mind game" are far and wide, and it's by no means inconceivable to me that this would have happened for a male or female doctor.
As for religious communities being a large, driving source of not talking about sexism, I completely, completely disagree, I say this as a staunch Atheist, who is culturally Jewish and half Christian by blood. I think there are many, many societal and cultural "privilege" factors that contribute to sexism long before you get into minority or marginalized communities, such as strict Muslim, Jewish, or Christian cultures. Think this is something worthy of a different thread, though it's an interesting discussion.
I agree with your comment about the many societal and privilege factors that contribute to sexism in the wider community. I stayed up until 4.30 this morning in order to catch Hilary Clinton's momentous victory speech. Whilst we should be ever vigilant about the subtle cultural racism and sexism that still crops up in our society we in the western modern secular world should remember, and maybe congratulate ourselves, for the tremendous strides we have made in the last 50 years on these issues.
I can tell you that when it comes to Monastic matters such as pedophilia we are allowing the Catholic Church to set its own "punishments."
Are there 'Sharia courts' in Britain?
While there are undoubtedly lots of different councils and tribunals dealing with Sharia principles, they aren't courts of law.
Most are Sharia 'councils' set up to make decisions on purely religious matters, although there are some bodies that mix Sharia principles with legally binding arbitration. But none can overrule the regular courts.
It's not that I'm too lazy to Google, it's that I have seen zero verifiable proof of Sharia Law being used to run and/or supercede courts of law, as mentioned above. I can, however, find a lot of rumor, conjecture, and scare mongering.
That said, they commit human rights atrocities, you will get no argument for me here.
Please do explain how we've gone from whether or not Jose Mourinho's comments on Dr. Eva Carneiro were sexist to the topic of sexism within religious communities...to human rights atrocities committed by the Saudi government. Saying "Look at what the Muslims/foreigners/other countries are doing" is no excuse for sexism of any form, nor is it an excuse for bullying, wrongful dismissal, slander, etc. I have to say I'm somewhat perplexed here...
Sounds [edit] a lot
It seems that there is often a desire to pull conversations toward Muslim societies (because let's not kid ourselves, no one is using Jewish or Christian examples here except me) which is, in my experience, often a sign of prejudice against a group that makes up less than 1% of the population of my country and around 5% of the UK. The US has a higher population of felons, and I suspect the Muslim populations' size competes with that of overall men accused of sexual harassment, assault, etc. And yet comparisons were immediately drawn to Muslims...