Not as some try to imply that white or other lives don't matter or matter less but that there can be video evidence of a calm, polite man in a car being shot for no good reason and the shooter is "just doing his job".
Not as some try to imply that white or other lives don't matter or matter less but that there can be video evidence of a calm, polite man in a car being shot for no good reason and the shooter is "just doing his job".
And it is a movement rooted in non-violence that, amongst other things, calls for better training for police officers to ensure these types of situations don't happen.
Not as some try to imply that white or other lives don't matter or matter less but that there can be video evidence of a calm, polite man in a car being shot for no good reason and the shooter is "just doing his job".
And it is a movement rooted in non-violence that, amongst other things, calls for better training for police officers to ensure these types of situations don't happen.
This. I read an article ages ago, about the Secret Service, who do all the government protection. It compared them to regular police. They get into frequent confrontations, but it was highlighted how infrequently they end up shooting. The reason given was the training they receive in deescalating situations. I've seen more police forces doing this, and seeing positive results, but not nearly enough.
Warning: This is really shocking and graphic. If you're not sure you can handle it, don't. You don't need to.
Just released, this is the dashcam from the shooting of Philando Castile, a Minnesota black man who was shot during a routine traffic stop. I count 2-3 seconds between Mr. Castile informing the officer (rightly) that he had a firearm on him and the officer firing 7 (by my count) rounds into the car point blank. Minnesota is an open carry state which means that Mr. Castile was well within his right to carry a fire arm.
@SomervilleAddick you bring up an excellent point about police training. There is definitely systemic racism, socio-economic problems, and all other kinds. But they are heavily exacerbated by the lack of deescalation (amongst other things) training that police get.
I have a friend who sometimes helps out a former spook buddy of his. They do hostage negotiation and deescalation training with SWAT teams and sheriff's offices in San Diego. My friend said that he was shocked at how little negotiation training these guys have. He said they had a SWAT team in for a 10-12 hour day running different scenarios, and every time the "hostages" died. And these are the people meant to be at the forefront of the most difficult situations.
Policing is very hard work, and they, like the military and schools, are at the forefront of socio-economic and racial inequality in this country, which is not fair. Add to that the fact that we have almost as many guns as people in this country, and they have a very dangerous job. But we must, for everyone's safety, start giving them the adequate training and tools they need.
Warning: This is really shocking and graphic. If you're not sure you can handle it, don't. You don't need to.
Just released, this is the dashcam from the shooting of Philando Castile, a Minnesota black man who was shot during a routine traffic stop. I count 2-3 seconds between Mr. Castile informing the officer (rightly) that he had a firearm on him and the officer firing 7 (by my count) rounds into the car point blank. Minnesota is an open carry state which means that Mr. Castile was well within his right to carry a fire arm.
@SomervilleAddick you bring up an excellent point about police training. There is definitely systemic racism, socio-economic problems, and all other kinds. But they are heavily exacerbated by the lack of deescalation (amongst other things) training that police get.
I have a friend who sometimes helps out a former spook buddy of his. They do hostage negotiation and deescalation training with SWAT teams and sheriff's offices in San Diego. My friend said that he was shocked at how little negotiation training these guys have. He said they had a SWAT team in for a 10-12 hour day running different scenarios, and every time the "hostages" died. And these are the people meant to be at the forefront of the most difficult situations.
Policing is very hard work, and they, like the military and schools, are at the forefront of socio-economic and racial inequality in this country, which is not fair. Add to that the fact that we have almost as many guns as people in this country, and they have a very dangerous job. But we must, for everyone's safety, start giving them the adequate training and tools they need.
Watched some of the video, incredibly sad that it panned out the way it did BUT what did the officer do wrong? He told the man not to reach for anything and he did, as confirmed by the girlfriend, the office wasn't to know it was for his license as it was immediately after he told him about the gun. There was a few second gap where the officer was telling him not to move before the shots were fired. The officer was also clearly distraught that it happened and it's clear it wasn't done with any bad intent and therefore very harsh to make it anything to do with race. In my eyes the family needs to be compensated for what is clearly a tragedy but at the same time the officer will need a lot of counselling going by his response immediately after, immediately calling it in and getting a medic to try and save the man.
On top of that, though this isn't aimed at your post, the officer isn't white, he's Hispanic so the calls of white supremacy and privilege are being applied to a minority.
I don't think anyone is claiming white supremacy. There's an institutional racism in play here, where anyone black is deemed a greater risk than the rest of society, and where shooting them is viewed as an appropriate response. I severely doubt a white man would have been shot in the same situation.
That permeates throughout the police to the point where even black officers engage in this.
I don't think the officers are necessarily racist themselves, but the culture of many forces is
I remember this clear as day, it was horrific. There is no way that man was killed lawfully, he was told to provide paperwork advised the officer he had a weapon in the vehicle and reached for his paper work. He was almost immediately shot.
Disgusting whether it was nerves or worse that made him shoot it was the wrong action.
Warning: This is really shocking and graphic. If you're not sure you can handle it, don't. You don't need to.
Just released, this is the dashcam from the shooting of Philando Castile, a Minnesota black man who was shot during a routine traffic stop. I count 2-3 seconds between Mr. Castile informing the officer (rightly) that he had a firearm on him and the officer firing 7 (by my count) rounds into the car point blank. Minnesota is an open carry state which means that Mr. Castile was well within his right to carry a fire arm.
@SomervilleAddick you bring up an excellent point about police training. There is definitely systemic racism, socio-economic problems, and all other kinds. But they are heavily exacerbated by the lack of deescalation (amongst other things) training that police get.
I have a friend who sometimes helps out a former spook buddy of his. They do hostage negotiation and deescalation training with SWAT teams and sheriff's offices in San Diego. My friend said that he was shocked at how little negotiation training these guys have. He said they had a SWAT team in for a 10-12 hour day running different scenarios, and every time the "hostages" died. And these are the people meant to be at the forefront of the most difficult situations.
Policing is very hard work, and they, like the military and schools, are at the forefront of socio-economic and racial inequality in this country, which is not fair. Add to that the fact that we have almost as many guns as people in this country, and they have a very dangerous job. But we must, for everyone's safety, start giving them the adequate training and tools they need.
Watched some of the video, incredibly sad that it panned out the way it did BUT what did the officer do wrong? He told the man not to reach for anything and he did, as confirmed by the girlfriend, the office wasn't to know it was for his license as it was immediately after he told him about the gun. There was a few second gap where the officer was telling him not to move before the shots were fired. The officer was also clearly distraught that it happened and it's clear it wasn't done with any bad intent and therefore very harsh to make it anything to do with race. In my eyes the family needs to be compensated for what is clearly a tragedy but at the same time the officer will need a lot of counselling going by his response immediately after, immediately calling it in and getting a medic to try and save the man.
You don't fire 7 rounds and expect a Medic to be able to do a damn thing. You might call it in to make it look like you want the victim to survive, but 7 rounds is half a clip... at point blank.
Warning: This is really shocking and graphic. If you're not sure you can handle it, don't. You don't need to.
Just released, this is the dashcam from the shooting of Philando Castile, a Minnesota black man who was shot during a routine traffic stop. I count 2-3 seconds between Mr. Castile informing the officer (rightly) that he had a firearm on him and the officer firing 7 (by my count) rounds into the car point blank. Minnesota is an open carry state which means that Mr. Castile was well within his right to carry a fire arm.
@SomervilleAddick you bring up an excellent point about police training. There is definitely systemic racism, socio-economic problems, and all other kinds. But they are heavily exacerbated by the lack of deescalation (amongst other things) training that police get.
I have a friend who sometimes helps out a former spook buddy of his. They do hostage negotiation and deescalation training with SWAT teams and sheriff's offices in San Diego. My friend said that he was shocked at how little negotiation training these guys have. He said they had a SWAT team in for a 10-12 hour day running different scenarios, and every time the "hostages" died. And these are the people meant to be at the forefront of the most difficult situations.
Policing is very hard work, and they, like the military and schools, are at the forefront of socio-economic and racial inequality in this country, which is not fair. Add to that the fact that we have almost as many guns as people in this country, and they have a very dangerous job. But we must, for everyone's safety, start giving them the adequate training and tools they need.
It sounded to me like the driver was pulled over because of a faulty break light.
The officer sounded decent, polite etc.
He asked for the D/L and it was passed to the officer.
Then the driver said "I have to tell you I have a firearm on me"
The officer says "well don't pull it out"
The driver apparently still goes to pull it out saying, "I'm going to have to pull it out".
The policeman is shouting "don't pull it out, don't pull it out"
The policeman then shoots the driver multiple times.
Apart from not carrying guns and improving police training, I'm not sure what else the officer could have done, other than possibly run away.
If he had waited another second he ran the risk of being shot.
It's all horrific, but I can now see why the officer was cleared.
Warning: This is really shocking and graphic. If you're not sure you can handle it, don't. You don't need to.
Just released, this is the dashcam from the shooting of Philando Castile, a Minnesota black man who was shot during a routine traffic stop. I count 2-3 seconds between Mr. Castile informing the officer (rightly) that he had a firearm on him and the officer firing 7 (by my count) rounds into the car point blank. Minnesota is an open carry state which means that Mr. Castile was well within his right to carry a fire arm.
@SomervilleAddick you bring up an excellent point about police training. There is definitely systemic racism, socio-economic problems, and all other kinds. But they are heavily exacerbated by the lack of deescalation (amongst other things) training that police get.
I have a friend who sometimes helps out a former spook buddy of his. They do hostage negotiation and deescalation training with SWAT teams and sheriff's offices in San Diego. My friend said that he was shocked at how little negotiation training these guys have. He said they had a SWAT team in for a 10-12 hour day running different scenarios, and every time the "hostages" died. And these are the people meant to be at the forefront of the most difficult situations.
Policing is very hard work, and they, like the military and schools, are at the forefront of socio-economic and racial inequality in this country, which is not fair. Add to that the fact that we have almost as many guns as people in this country, and they have a very dangerous job. But we must, for everyone's safety, start giving them the adequate training and tools they need.
It sounded to me like the driver was pulled over because of a faulty break light.
The officer sounded decent, polite etc.
He asked for the D/L and it was passed to the officer.
Then the driver said "I have to tell you I have a firearm on me"
The officer says "well don't pull it out"
The driver apparently still goes to pull it out saying, "I'm going to have to pull it out".
The policeman is shouting "don't pull it out, don't pull it out"
The policeman then shoots the driver multiple times.
Apart from not carrying guns and improving police training, I'm not sure what else the officer could have done, other than possibly run away.
If he had waited until second he ran the risk of being shot.
It's all horrific, but I can now see why the officer was cleared.
My counter (of sorts) is that this happens in real time. This is seconds. And we don't know exactly how Castile reacted or what his movements were like. But saying stop, stop, then opening fire point blank into a car...we must do better. If police opened fire on everyone who announced they had a gun (and perhaps were slow to react to a request), there would be far, far more police shootings in Minnesota. But that notion of "if he waited he would have risked being shot." I'm sure that's the way he sees it. That's what police often cite. But there was nothing in this exchange to indicate that Castile was going to shoot the officer.
My biggest issue here is that Castile was legally allowed to own and carry a gun (and I agree that we should have far fewer guns but that will never happen), and the police reaction to a man with a gun was after 2-3 seconds to not only draw his weapon, but open fire I think it's 7 times. I'm not saying that it's not a difficult situation, let alone a difficult job. But time and again, Terence Crutcher, Tamir Rice, we see that the instinct with black men is to shoot first and ask questions later.
Just to quickly add: I'm not saying this is easy. Either this situation, or the larger situation of the relationship between police and communities of color. These are very, very, very difficult problems. What I'm trying to say is that use of lethal force should be an absolute last resort for police. Now, in a lot of places the laws do not reflect that, which is a problem, prosecutor's offices (who work closely with police) do not prosecute for that, and police are not trained that way. All of that needs to change in my opinion, and it is what I mean when I say "we must do better."
Warning: This is really shocking and graphic. If you're not sure you can handle it, don't. You don't need to.
Just released, this is the dashcam from the shooting of Philando Castile, a Minnesota black man who was shot during a routine traffic stop. I count 2-3 seconds between Mr. Castile informing the officer (rightly) that he had a firearm on him and the officer firing 7 (by my count) rounds into the car point blank. Minnesota is an open carry state which means that Mr. Castile was well within his right to carry a fire arm.
@SomervilleAddick you bring up an excellent point about police training. There is definitely systemic racism, socio-economic problems, and all other kinds. But they are heavily exacerbated by the lack of deescalation (amongst other things) training that police get.
I have a friend who sometimes helps out a former spook buddy of his. They do hostage negotiation and deescalation training with SWAT teams and sheriff's offices in San Diego. My friend said that he was shocked at how little negotiation training these guys have. He said they had a SWAT team in for a 10-12 hour day running different scenarios, and every time the "hostages" died. And these are the people meant to be at the forefront of the most difficult situations.
Policing is very hard work, and they, like the military and schools, are at the forefront of socio-economic and racial inequality in this country, which is not fair. Add to that the fact that we have almost as many guns as people in this country, and they have a very dangerous job. But we must, for everyone's safety, start giving them the adequate training and tools they need.
It sounded to me like the driver was pulled over because of a faulty break light.
The officer sounded decent, polite etc.
He asked for the D/L and it was passed to the officer.
Then the driver said "I have to tell you I have a firearm on me"
The officer says "well don't pull it out"
The driver apparently still goes to pull it out saying, "I'm going to have to pull it out".
The policeman is shouting "don't pull it out, don't pull it out"
The policeman then shoots the driver multiple times.
Apart from not carrying guns and improving police training, I'm not sure what else the officer could have done, other than possibly run away.
If he had waited until second he ran the risk of being shot.
It's all horrific, but I can now see why the officer was cleared.
My counter (of sorts) is that this happens in real time. This is seconds. And we don't know exactly how Castile reacted or what his movements were like. But saying stop, stop, then opening fire point blank into a car...we must do better. If police opened fire on everyone who announced they had a gun (and perhaps were slow to react to a request), there would be far, far more police shootings in Minnesota. But that notion of "if he waited he would have risked being shot." I'm sure that's the way he sees it. That's what police often cite. But there was nothing in this exchange to indicate that Castile was going to shoot the officer.
My biggest issue here is that Castile was legally allowed to own and carry a gun (and I agree that we should have far fewer guns but that will never happen), and the police reaction to a man with a gun was after 2-3 seconds to not only draw his weapon, but open fire I think it's 7 times. I'm not saying that it's not a difficult situation, let alone a difficult job. But time and again, Terence Crutcher, Tamir Rice, we see that the instinct with black men is to shoot first and ask questions later.
Just to quickly add: I'm not saying this is easy. Either this situation, or the larger situation of the relationship between police and communities of color. These are very, very, very difficult problems. What I'm trying to say is that use of lethal force should be an absolute last resort for police. Now, in a lot of places the laws do not reflect that, which is a problem, prosecutor's offices (who work closely with police) do not prosecute for that, and police are not trained that way. All of that needs to change in my opinion, and it is what I mean when I say "we must do better."
There is no doubt the US has a massive problem with guns & there is a massive problem with police shooting black men.
I was staggered that the officer was found not guilty based on what I had heard had happened.
However, watching that video it is clear the officer told the man regarding his gun, "don't pull it out".
The man responded "I'm going to have to pull it out".
The officer once again shouted twice "don't pull it out".
He then shot the man dead.
What we don't know is why the man insisted on pulling the gun out, when he was told 3 times not to.
It's not clear overall precisely what happened, without having attended the court hearing, but it does appear that the man went for his gun, after being told 3 times not to.
Warning: This is really shocking and graphic. If you're not sure you can handle it, don't. You don't need to.
Just released, this is the dashcam from the shooting of Philando Castile, a Minnesota black man who was shot during a routine traffic stop. I count 2-3 seconds between Mr. Castile informing the officer (rightly) that he had a firearm on him and the officer firing 7 (by my count) rounds into the car point blank. Minnesota is an open carry state which means that Mr. Castile was well within his right to carry a fire arm.
@SomervilleAddick you bring up an excellent point about police training. There is definitely systemic racism, socio-economic problems, and all other kinds. But they are heavily exacerbated by the lack of deescalation (amongst other things) training that police get.
I have a friend who sometimes helps out a former spook buddy of his. They do hostage negotiation and deescalation training with SWAT teams and sheriff's offices in San Diego. My friend said that he was shocked at how little negotiation training these guys have. He said they had a SWAT team in for a 10-12 hour day running different scenarios, and every time the "hostages" died. And these are the people meant to be at the forefront of the most difficult situations.
Policing is very hard work, and they, like the military and schools, are at the forefront of socio-economic and racial inequality in this country, which is not fair. Add to that the fact that we have almost as many guns as people in this country, and they have a very dangerous job. But we must, for everyone's safety, start giving them the adequate training and tools they need.
It sounded to me like the driver was pulled over because of a faulty break light.
The officer sounded decent, polite etc.
He asked for the D/L and it was passed to the officer.
Then the driver said "I have to tell you I have a firearm on me"
The officer says "well don't pull it out"
The driver apparently still goes to pull it out saying, "I'm going to have to pull it out".
The policeman is shouting "don't pull it out, don't pull it out"
The policeman then shoots the driver multiple times.
Apart from not carrying guns and improving police training, I'm not sure what else the officer could have done, other than possibly run away.
If he had waited until second he ran the risk of being shot.
It's all horrific, but I can now see why the officer was cleared.
My counter (of sorts) is that this happens in real time. This is seconds. And we don't know exactly how Castile reacted or what his movements were like. But saying stop, stop, then opening fire point blank into a car...we must do better. If police opened fire on everyone who announced they had a gun (and perhaps were slow to react to a request), there would be far, far more police shootings in Minnesota. But that notion of "if he waited he would have risked being shot." I'm sure that's the way he sees it. That's what police often cite. But there was nothing in this exchange to indicate that Castile was going to shoot the officer.
My biggest issue here is that Castile was legally allowed to own and carry a gun (and I agree that we should have far fewer guns but that will never happen), and the police reaction to a man with a gun was after 2-3 seconds to not only draw his weapon, but open fire I think it's 7 times. I'm not saying that it's not a difficult situation, let alone a difficult job. But time and again, Terence Crutcher, Tamir Rice, we see that the instinct with black men is to shoot first and ask questions later.
Just to quickly add: I'm not saying this is easy. Either this situation, or the larger situation of the relationship between police and communities of color. These are very, very, very difficult problems. What I'm trying to say is that use of lethal force should be an absolute last resort for police. Now, in a lot of places the laws do not reflect that, which is a problem, prosecutor's offices (who work closely with police) do not prosecute for that, and police are not trained that way. All of that needs to change in my opinion, and it is what I mean when I say "we must do better."
There is no doubt the US has a massive problem with guns & there is a massive problem with police shooting black men.
I was staggered that the officer was found not guilty based on what I had heard had happened.
However, watching that video it is clear the officer told the man regarding his gun, "don't pull it out".
The man responded "I'm going to have to pull it out".
The officer once again shouted twice "don't pull it out".
He then shot the man dead.
What we don't know is why the man insisted on pulling the gun out, when he was told 3 times not to.
It's not clear overall precisely what happened, without having attended the court hearing, but it does appear that the man went for his gun, after being told 3 times not to.
I still don't think killing him was the right call.
Warning: This is really shocking and graphic. If you're not sure you can handle it, don't. You don't need to.
Just released, this is the dashcam from the shooting of Philando Castile, a Minnesota black man who was shot during a routine traffic stop. I count 2-3 seconds between Mr. Castile informing the officer (rightly) that he had a firearm on him and the officer firing 7 (by my count) rounds into the car point blank. Minnesota is an open carry state which means that Mr. Castile was well within his right to carry a fire arm.
@SomervilleAddick you bring up an excellent point about police training. There is definitely systemic racism, socio-economic problems, and all other kinds. But they are heavily exacerbated by the lack of deescalation (amongst other things) training that police get.
I have a friend who sometimes helps out a former spook buddy of his. They do hostage negotiation and deescalation training with SWAT teams and sheriff's offices in San Diego. My friend said that he was shocked at how little negotiation training these guys have. He said they had a SWAT team in for a 10-12 hour day running different scenarios, and every time the "hostages" died. And these are the people meant to be at the forefront of the most difficult situations.
Policing is very hard work, and they, like the military and schools, are at the forefront of socio-economic and racial inequality in this country, which is not fair. Add to that the fact that we have almost as many guns as people in this country, and they have a very dangerous job. But we must, for everyone's safety, start giving them the adequate training and tools they need.
It sounded to me like the driver was pulled over because of a faulty break light.
The officer sounded decent, polite etc.
He asked for the D/L and it was passed to the officer.
Then the driver said "I have to tell you I have a firearm on me"
The officer says "well don't pull it out"
The driver apparently still goes to pull it out saying, "I'm going to have to pull it out".
The policeman is shouting "don't pull it out, don't pull it out"
The policeman then shoots the driver multiple times.
Apart from not carrying guns and improving police training, I'm not sure what else the officer could have done, other than possibly run away.
If he had waited until second he ran the risk of being shot.
It's all horrific, but I can now see why the officer was cleared.
My counter (of sorts) is that this happens in real time. This is seconds. And we don't know exactly how Castile reacted or what his movements were like. But saying stop, stop, then opening fire point blank into a car...we must do better. If police opened fire on everyone who announced they had a gun (and perhaps were slow to react to a request), there would be far, far more police shootings in Minnesota. But that notion of "if he waited he would have risked being shot." I'm sure that's the way he sees it. That's what police often cite. But there was nothing in this exchange to indicate that Castile was going to shoot the officer.
My biggest issue here is that Castile was legally allowed to own and carry a gun (and I agree that we should have far fewer guns but that will never happen), and the police reaction to a man with a gun was after 2-3 seconds to not only draw his weapon, but open fire I think it's 7 times. I'm not saying that it's not a difficult situation, let alone a difficult job. But time and again, Terence Crutcher, Tamir Rice, we see that the instinct with black men is to shoot first and ask questions later.
Just to quickly add: I'm not saying this is easy. Either this situation, or the larger situation of the relationship between police and communities of color. These are very, very, very difficult problems. What I'm trying to say is that use of lethal force should be an absolute last resort for police. Now, in a lot of places the laws do not reflect that, which is a problem, prosecutor's offices (who work closely with police) do not prosecute for that, and police are not trained that way. All of that needs to change in my opinion, and it is what I mean when I say "we must do better."
There is no doubt the US has a massive problem with guns & there is a massive problem with police shooting black men.
I was staggered that the officer was found not guilty based on what I had heard had happened.
However, watching that video it is clear the officer told the man regarding his gun, "don't pull it out".
The man responded "I'm going to have to pull it out".
The officer once again shouted twice "don't pull it out".
He then shot the man dead.
What we don't know is why the man insisted on pulling the gun out, when he was told 3 times not to.
It's not clear overall precisely what happened, without having attended the court hearing, but it does appear that the man went for his gun, after being told 3 times not to.
I still don't think killing him was the right call.
If you had 3 seconds to decide what would be your call?
Fortunately for me it wouldn't be my position to make the call.
But I like to believe I would not unload 7 rounds into the man. My reasons are as follows:
1. Especially as there were 2 officers there.
2. a man and woman who were not driving eratically etc just had a busted tail light.
3. They stopped immediately when signalled to.
4. He was calm as he spoke to the officer.
5. He handed over his first document without question.
6. The man warns the officer that he has a firearm whilst searching for I assume his licence (I am assuming first doc was insurance)
7. At no point does the officer warn 'I will be forced to shoot if you reach for your gun'
Looking at it based on the audio: The officer just says "don't pull it out though... do not pull it out... ****DO NOT PULL IT OUT..." Then the shots.
He tells the officer he has a firearm, (I am assuming that it was blocking his access to his pocket) the officer assumes he's now reaching for the fire arm to pull it on him.
All we hear the man say is **** "I'm reaching for my, I've got to pull..." Then the shots.
I think he deserved the courtesy of another couple of seconds...Yes.
If you're that officer,
8. You can see his hands 9. Your gun is trained at his chest, 10. You have another officer as back up and 11. This man has been fully compliant. Not a single sign of aggression. 12. Your training has prepared you for this.
His sentence could have been ''I'm reaching for my... *begins to panic as there's now a gun in his face* I've got to pull it out of the way to get to my wallet''.
I have no belief that he was planning on shooting at the officer.
The officer in my opinion would be guilty of manslaughter here. I do not believe he killed him in cold blood. But he shot 7 rounds, that is intent to kill.
I really hate civilians having access to guns, legally or not. If they didn't have access, this innocent man would not have been shot dead.
Fortunately for me it wouldn't be my position to make the call.
But I like to believe I would not unload 7 rounds into the man. My reasons are as follows:
1. Especially as there were 2 officers there.
2. a man and woman who were not driving eratically etc just had a busted tail light.
3. They stopped immediately when signalled to.
4. He was calm as he spoke to the officer.
5. He handed over his first document without question.
6. The man warns the officer that he has a firearm whilst searching for I assume his licence (I am assuming first doc was insurance)
7. At no point does the officer warn 'I will be forced to shoot if you reach for your gun'
Looking at it based on the audio: The officer just says "don't pull it out though... do not pull it out... ****DO NOT PULL IT OUT..." Then the shots.
He tells the officer he has a firearm, (I am assuming that it was blocking his access to his pocket) the officer assumes he's now reaching for the fire arm to pull it on him.
All we hear the man say is **** "I'm reaching for my, I've got to pull..." Then the shots.
I think he deserved the courtesy of another couple of seconds...Yes.
If you're that officer,
8. You can see his hands 9. Your gun is trained at his chest, 10. You have another officer as back up and 11. This man has been fully compliant. Not a single sign of aggression. 12. Your training has prepared you for this.
His sentence could have been ''I'm reaching for my... *begins to panic as there's now a gun in his face* I've got to pull it out of the way to get to my wallet''.
I have no belief that he was planning on shooting at the officer.
The officer in my opinion would be guilty of manslaughter here. I do not believe he killed him in cold blood. But he shot 7 rounds, that is intent to kill.
I really hate civilians having access to guns, legally or not. If they didn't have access, this innocent man would not have been shot dead.
Don't get me wrong, it's an absolutely tragic situation, especially if the guy was not going to go for his gun (and let's assume he wasn't).
However, the policeman wasn't to know whether the poor chap was going to shoot him or not.
The policeman had a second to decide in his mind whether to shoot or risk being shot himself.
The gun laws are ridiculous, the police rules and training obviously need reviewing, the policeman didn't need to shoot 7 times, but he seemed to be rather fraught. Perhaps/probably the officer shouldn't have been armed, but I doubt that is an available option.
If all officers had cameras attached to their uniform, it would make for clearer evidence, but it possibly would still not have altered this terrible situation.
The poor chap obviously did not deserve to die, but the point I was making, was that on what I saw from this video, I could understand why the policeman was found not guilty of manslaughter.
(If I had sat through the trial and seen visual evidence from the front I may hold a different view).
Likely one that will never get proved definitively one way or another.
I can't shake the feeling though, that if all other variables were the same, but the driver was a white guy, I'm not convinced he ends up dead. That saddens me, and even more so that I'm really not surprised.
Likely one that will never get proved definitively one way or another.
I can't shake the feeling though, that if all other variables were the same, but the driver was a white guy, I'm not convinced he ends up dead. That saddens me, and even more so that I'm really not surprised.
Same.
CE, I think all of your points are completely reasonable and very well thought out, and I greatly appreciate your humility in making them, as well as understanding that you (and all of us) can't see exactly what happened in the car in that short amount of time. As I said above, for me it's all about the incredibly short interval of time between giving a command and opening fire point blank into the car. But this, unlike various other deaths of black men at the hands of police, is murkier.
That said, literally just saw this as I was writing. This blows my fucking mind: The officer who fatally shot Philando Castile during a traffic stop last year told investigators that the smell of "burnt marijuana" in Castile's car made him believe his life was in danger.
"I thought, I was gonna die," Officer Jeronimo Yanez told investigators from the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension fifteen hours after the shooting. "And I thought if he’s, if he has the, the guts and the audacity to smoke marijuana in front of the five year old girl and risk her lungs and risk her life by giving her secondhand smoke and the front seat passenger doing the same thing then what, what care does he give about me. And, I let off the rounds and then after the rounds were off, the little girls was screaming."
This isn't the first time a police officer has cited the alleged danger posed by pot to justify a confrontation that turned deadly.
...
Yanez's statement is somewhat puzzling, conflating secondhand smoke exposure with a clear and present danger to an officer's life.
Regardless, Yanez's defense sought to make Castile's marijuana use a central issue in Yanez's manslaughter trial. Castile had THC (the main psychoactive compound in marijuana) in his system at the time of the stop. But because of the way the chemical is absorbed by the body, blood THC levels are a poor indicator of current intoxication. It's unclear whether Castile was actually impaired at the time.
It's worth noting that medical marijuana is legal in Minnesota (the officer had no way of knowing if Castile was using marijuana recreationalally or medically, not that it should matter), so it's ostensibly like saying that because he saw my bottle of Prozac, he feared for his life.
Oh, and here's an overview of former police officers/prosecutors giving their take on the incident. This stood out: “The victim did everything right, everything he was supposed to do. The victim was very respectful, very polite, letting the officer know what he was doing. None of that made a difference.” — Paul Butler, law professor at Georgetown University and former federal prosecutor"
Likely one that will never get proved definitively one way or another.
I can't shake the feeling though, that if all other variables were the same, but the driver was a white guy, I'm not convinced he ends up dead. That saddens me, and even more so that I'm really not surprised.
Same.
CE, I think all of your points are completely reasonable and very well thought out, and I greatly appreciate your humility in making them, as well as understanding that you (and all of us) can't see exactly what happened in the car in that short amount of time. As I said above, for me it's all about the incredibly short interval of time between giving a command and opening fire point blank into the car. But this, unlike various other deaths of black men at the hands of police, is murkier.
That said, literally just saw this as I was writing. This blows my fucking mind: The officer who fatally shot Philando Castile during a traffic stop last year told investigators that the smell of "burnt marijuana" in Castile's car made him believe his life was in danger.
"I thought, I was gonna die," Officer Jeronimo Yanez told investigators from the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension fifteen hours after the shooting. "And I thought if he’s, if he has the, the guts and the audacity to smoke marijuana in front of the five year old girl and risk her lungs and risk her life by giving her secondhand smoke and the front seat passenger doing the same thing then what, what care does he give about me. And, I let off the rounds and then after the rounds were off, the little girls was screaming."
This isn't the first time a police officer has cited the alleged danger posed by pot to justify a confrontation that turned deadly.
...
Yanez's statement is somewhat puzzling, conflating secondhand smoke exposure with a clear and present danger to an officer's life.
Regardless, Yanez's defense sought to make Castile's marijuana use a central issue in Yanez's manslaughter trial. Castile had THC (the main psychoactive compound in marijuana) in his system at the time of the stop. But because of the way the chemical is absorbed by the body, blood THC levels are a poor indicator of current intoxication. It's unclear whether Castile was actually impaired at the time.
It's worth noting that medical marijuana is legal in Minnesota (the officer had no way of knowing if Castile was using marijuana recreationalally or medically, not that it should matter), so it's ostensibly like saying that because he saw my bottle of Prozac, he feared for his life.
Oh, and here's an overview of former police officers/prosecutors giving their take on the incident. This stood out: “The victim did everything right, everything he was supposed to do. The victim was very respectful, very polite, letting the officer know what he was doing. None of that made a difference.” — Paul Butler, law professor at Georgetown University and former federal prosecutor"
Well, I was only commenting on the video link you gave and as I said, if I had the full evidence, I may have a different view.
I cannot accept for one second, the use of marijuana or probably any other drug, is a valid reason to shoot someone. That Is plainly ridiculous and if that was the only reason, then he should have been found guilty of manslaughter.
Police shootings are less than 1% of all shootings in America. By far the largest shootings occurances are inncer city blacks on inner city blacks, often using illegal guns. Chicago, for example.
But if you think about it, 1% is a lot of government killings. I think we have far more police shootings per capita than some countries have total shootings.
I saw a stat once that if you just sack the top 3% of officers with the most complains from citizens, shootings would drop 50%. Which really points to the fact that we have way too many hung-ho, testosterone driven cops out there who like to wave guns around.
We need to make our police forces LOOK like the people the police. Which means more women. Way more. Women tend to deescalate much better than men. Also more black cops policing black areas .
In too many cities the police look like occupying forces.
Likely one that will never get proved definitively one way or another.
I can't shake the feeling though, that if all other variables were the same, but the driver was a white guy, I'm not convinced he ends up dead. That saddens me, and even more so that I'm really not surprised.
Same.
CE, I think all of your points are completely reasonable and very well thought out, and I greatly appreciate your humility in making them, as well as understanding that you (and all of us) can't see exactly what happened in the car in that short amount of time. As I said above, for me it's all about the incredibly short interval of time between giving a command and opening fire point blank into the car. But this, unlike various other deaths of black men at the hands of police, is murkier.
That said, literally just saw this as I was writing. This blows my fucking mind: The officer who fatally shot Philando Castile during a traffic stop last year told investigators that the smell of "burnt marijuana" in Castile's car made him believe his life was in danger.
"I thought, I was gonna die," Officer Jeronimo Yanez told investigators from the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension fifteen hours after the shooting. "And I thought if he’s, if he has the, the guts and the audacity to smoke marijuana in front of the five year old girl and risk her lungs and risk her life by giving her secondhand smoke and the front seat passenger doing the same thing then what, what care does he give about me. And, I let off the rounds and then after the rounds were off, the little girls was screaming."
This isn't the first time a police officer has cited the alleged danger posed by pot to justify a confrontation that turned deadly.
...
Yanez's statement is somewhat puzzling, conflating secondhand smoke exposure with a clear and present danger to an officer's life.
Regardless, Yanez's defense sought to make Castile's marijuana use a central issue in Yanez's manslaughter trial. Castile had THC (the main psychoactive compound in marijuana) in his system at the time of the stop. But because of the way the chemical is absorbed by the body, blood THC levels are a poor indicator of current intoxication. It's unclear whether Castile was actually impaired at the time.
It's worth noting that medical marijuana is legal in Minnesota (the officer had no way of knowing if Castile was using marijuana recreationalally or medically, not that it should matter), so it's ostensibly like saying that because he saw my bottle of Prozac, he feared for his life.
Oh, and here's an overview of former police officers/prosecutors giving their take on the incident. This stood out: “The victim did everything right, everything he was supposed to do. The victim was very respectful, very polite, letting the officer know what he was doing. None of that made a difference.” — Paul Butler, law professor at Georgetown University and former federal prosecutor"
Well, I was only commenting on the video link you gave and as I said, if I had the full evidence, I may have a different view.
I cannot accept for one second, the use of marijuana or probably any other drug, is a valid reason to shoot someone. That Is plainly ridiculous and if that was the only reason, then he should have been found guilty of manslaughter.
Right of course. Sorry I really only saw that article about Yanez's defense while writing my post so I tacked all that on there and it kind of got conflated with my response to your post. All of that wasn't directed at you, it was "oh wow look at this."
Comments
'Just doing his job'
Yeah righto.
Not as some try to imply that white or other lives don't matter or matter less but that there can be video evidence of a calm, polite man in a car being shot for no good reason and the shooter is "just doing his job".
Just released, this is the dashcam from the shooting of Philando Castile, a Minnesota black man who was shot during a routine traffic stop. I count 2-3 seconds between Mr. Castile informing the officer (rightly) that he had a firearm on him and the officer firing 7 (by my count) rounds into the car point blank. Minnesota is an open carry state which means that Mr. Castile was well within his right to carry a fire arm.
The officer was found not guilty of manslaughter.
@SomervilleAddick you bring up an excellent point about police training. There is definitely systemic racism, socio-economic problems, and all other kinds. But they are heavily exacerbated by the lack of deescalation (amongst other things) training that police get.
I have a friend who sometimes helps out a former spook buddy of his. They do hostage negotiation and deescalation training with SWAT teams and sheriff's offices in San Diego. My friend said that he was shocked at how little negotiation training these guys have. He said they had a SWAT team in for a 10-12 hour day running different scenarios, and every time the "hostages" died. And these are the people meant to be at the forefront of the most difficult situations.
Policing is very hard work, and they, like the military and schools, are at the forefront of socio-economic and racial inequality in this country, which is not fair. Add to that the fact that we have almost as many guns as people in this country, and they have a very dangerous job. But we must, for everyone's safety, start giving them the adequate training and tools they need.
That permeates throughout the police to the point where even black officers engage in this.
I don't think the officers are necessarily racist themselves, but the culture of many forces is
Disgusting whether it was nerves or worse that made him shoot it was the wrong action.
The officer sounded decent, polite etc.
He asked for the D/L and it was passed to the officer.
Then the driver said "I have to tell you I have a firearm on me"
The officer says "well don't pull it out"
The driver apparently still goes to pull it out saying, "I'm going to have to pull it out".
The policeman is shouting "don't pull it out, don't pull it out"
The policeman then shoots the driver multiple times.
Apart from not carrying guns and improving police training, I'm not sure what else the officer could have done, other than possibly run away.
If he had waited another second he ran the risk of being shot.
It's all horrific, but I can now see why the officer was cleared.
My biggest issue here is that Castile was legally allowed to own and carry a gun (and I agree that we should have far fewer guns but that will never happen), and the police reaction to a man with a gun was after 2-3 seconds to not only draw his weapon, but open fire I think it's 7 times. I'm not saying that it's not a difficult situation, let alone a difficult job. But time and again, Terence Crutcher, Tamir Rice, we see that the instinct with black men is to shoot first and ask questions later.
Just to quickly add: I'm not saying this is easy. Either this situation, or the larger situation of the relationship between police and communities of color. These are very, very, very difficult problems. What I'm trying to say is that use of lethal force should be an absolute last resort for police. Now, in a lot of places the laws do not reflect that, which is a problem, prosecutor's offices (who work closely with police) do not prosecute for that, and police are not trained that way. All of that needs to change in my opinion, and it is what I mean when I say "we must do better."
If he had waited until second he ran the risk of being shot."
Oh my god.
I was staggered that the officer was found not guilty based on what I had heard had happened.
However, watching that video it is clear the officer told the man regarding his gun, "don't pull it out".
The man responded "I'm going to have to pull it out".
The officer once again shouted twice "don't pull it out".
He then shot the man dead.
What we don't know is why the man insisted on pulling the gun out, when he was told 3 times not to.
It's not clear overall precisely what happened, without having attended the court hearing, but it does appear that the man went for his gun, after being told 3 times not to.
But I like to believe I would not unload 7 rounds into the man. My reasons are as follows:
1. Especially as there were 2 officers there.
2. a man and woman who were not driving eratically etc just had a busted tail light.
3. They stopped immediately when signalled to.
4. He was calm as he spoke to the officer.
5. He handed over his first document without question.
6. The man warns the officer that he has a firearm whilst searching for I assume his licence (I am assuming first doc was insurance)
7. At no point does the officer warn 'I will be forced to shoot if you reach for your gun'
Looking at it based on the audio:
The officer just says "don't pull it out though... do not pull it out... ****DO NOT PULL IT OUT..." Then the shots.
He tells the officer he has a firearm, (I am assuming that it was blocking his access to his pocket) the officer assumes he's now reaching for the fire arm to pull it on him.
All we hear the man say is **** "I'm reaching for my, I've got to pull..." Then the shots.
I think he deserved the courtesy of another couple of seconds...Yes.
If you're that officer,
8. You can see his hands
9. Your gun is trained at his chest,
10. You have another officer as back up and
11. This man has been fully compliant. Not a single sign of aggression.
12. Your training has prepared you for this.
His sentence could have been ''I'm reaching for my... *begins to panic as there's now a gun in his face* I've got to pull it out of the way to get to my wallet''.
I have no belief that he was planning on shooting at the officer.
The officer in my opinion would be guilty of manslaughter here. I do not believe he killed him in cold blood. But he shot 7 rounds, that is intent to kill.
I really hate civilians having access to guns, legally or not. If they didn't have access, this innocent man would not have been shot dead.
However, the policeman wasn't to know whether the poor chap was going to shoot him or not.
The policeman had a second to decide in his mind whether to shoot or risk being shot himself.
The gun laws are ridiculous, the police rules and training obviously need reviewing, the policeman didn't need to shoot 7 times, but he seemed to be rather fraught. Perhaps/probably the officer shouldn't have been armed, but I doubt that is an available option.
If all officers had cameras attached to their uniform, it would make for clearer evidence, but it possibly would still not have altered this terrible situation.
The poor chap obviously did not deserve to die, but the point I was making, was that on what I saw from this video, I could understand why the policeman was found not guilty of manslaughter.
(If I had sat through the trial and seen visual evidence from the front I may hold a different view).
I can't shake the feeling though, that if all other variables were the same, but the driver was a white guy, I'm not convinced he ends up dead. That saddens me, and even more so that I'm really not surprised.
CE, I think all of your points are completely reasonable and very well thought out, and I greatly appreciate your humility in making them, as well as understanding that you (and all of us) can't see exactly what happened in the car in that short amount of time. As I said above, for me it's all about the incredibly short interval of time between giving a command and opening fire point blank into the car. But this, unlike various other deaths of black men at the hands of police, is murkier.
That said, literally just saw this as I was writing. This blows my fucking mind:
The officer who fatally shot Philando Castile during a traffic stop last year told investigators that the smell of "burnt marijuana" in Castile's car made him believe his life was in danger.
"I thought, I was gonna die," Officer Jeronimo Yanez told investigators from the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension fifteen hours after the shooting. "And I thought if he’s, if he has the, the guts and the audacity to smoke marijuana in front of the five year old girl and risk her lungs and risk her life by giving her secondhand smoke and the front seat passenger doing the same thing then what, what care does he give about me. And, I let off the rounds and then after the rounds were off, the little girls was screaming."
This isn't the first time a police officer has cited the alleged danger posed by pot to justify a confrontation that turned deadly.
...
Yanez's statement is somewhat puzzling, conflating secondhand smoke exposure with a clear and present danger to an officer's life.
Regardless, Yanez's defense sought to make Castile's marijuana use a central issue in Yanez's manslaughter trial. Castile had THC (the main psychoactive compound in marijuana) in his system at the time of the stop. But because of the way the chemical is absorbed by the body, blood THC levels are a poor indicator of current intoxication. It's unclear whether Castile was actually impaired at the time.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/06/21/officer-who-shot-philando-castile-said-smell-of-marijuana-made-him-fear-for-his-life/?utm_term=.c695bac1c8e9
It's worth noting that medical marijuana is legal in Minnesota (the officer had no way of knowing if Castile was using marijuana recreationalally or medically, not that it should matter), so it's ostensibly like saying that because he saw my bottle of Prozac, he feared for his life.
Oh, and here's an overview of former police officers/prosecutors giving their take on the incident. This stood out:
“The victim did everything right, everything he was supposed to do. The victim was very respectful, very polite, letting the officer know what he was doing. None of that made a difference.” — Paul Butler, law professor at Georgetown University and former federal prosecutor"
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/21/us/video-police-shooting-philando-castile-trial.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur
I cannot accept for one second, the use of marijuana or probably any other drug, is a valid reason to shoot someone.
That Is plainly ridiculous and if that was the only reason, then he should have been found guilty of manslaughter.
But if you think about it, 1% is a lot of government killings. I think we have far more police shootings per capita than some countries have total shootings.
I saw a stat once that if you just sack the top 3% of officers with the most complains from citizens, shootings would drop 50%. Which really points to the fact that we have way too many hung-ho, testosterone driven cops out there who like to wave guns around.
We need to make our police forces LOOK like the people the police. Which means more women. Way more. Women tend to deescalate much better than men. Also more black cops policing black areas .
In too many cities the police look like occupying forces.