I like the ideology that the owners work with fans to strengthen the club, hopefully the fans are prepared to work with the current owners in this respect as well. Unfortunately there are a fair few posters that seem unwilling to work with the current regime and express an opinion that they want complete change / new ownership! It is the views and opinions of these people I dont support. Whilst the poster itself does not profess to represent these individuals I do feel that they are using this campaign to further their own radical views and therefore I feel the demo will be seen as not just about ideals such as seeking greater dialogue and working with the current owner and CEO but a demonstration against them. Because of this currently I wont support it. Apologies!
OK. Name the posters. Let's count them and see whether your assertion is correct.
How the owner and CEO see the campaign is largely down to them and how deluded they MAY be. Regardless, they are destroying my club and I can't let their problem stop me from doing something - and for the record my preferred option is for RD to change his plan and stop destroying our club.
This is a protest to show how misguided KM's claims were about "2% of fans". That is all this protest is. Surely that draws together many people? It's for everyone who is dissatisfied with how the club is being run regardless of those individuals end goals.
What's your opinion on it?
And for that matter the trust's standpoint.
@Addickted2TheReds, I was clarifying it was a reasonable position for someone to take if that's what they felt about individuals involved in its organisation. I made clear I wasn't offering agreement for that viewpoint.
My opinion is that it's a well-crafted, well-targeted campaign, I fully support its aims and I like the 2% stuff in particular because it's a very strong message. I'm in that 2% for sure and will be making that statement on Saturday.
(I'm not associating myself with the West Stand car park protest as I've said previously).
@Hex, No need to belittle those who disagree with you. No two people agree on everything, or even necessarily everything about the things they agree on. This is a discussion board. If you can't live with disagreement best find yourself a box to seal yourself into, surely?
It is valid to ask what the aims of the protest are and what we can look to achieve. I agree RD selling up is unlikely. What I want is the club to be run a bit better than it has been. I am making a statement as a customer who isn’t particularly happy. I think we have a CEO that doesn’t really get it – whether that is the fault of a lack of autonomy given by the owner or a lack of knowledge of what to do, I don’t know. But some comments about the fans have been both patronising and arrogant and the 2% is the latest of them.
So what will the effect be – well if it makes the owner acknowledge that there is genuine unhappiness, maybe he will address the issues. I agree that is unlikely, but the fact it is unlikely means we should take the opportunity to embarrass them. They deserve it!
I am of the view that there have been some good decisions amongst the bad. But the bad have to be accepted and not ignored or dismissed as they have the potential to severely damage our beloved club.
This is a protest to show how misguided KM's claims were about "2% of fans". That is all this protest is. Surely that draws together many people? It's for everyone who is dissatisfied with how the club is being run regardless of those individuals end goals.
What's your opinion on it?
And for that matter the trust's standpoint.
@Hex, No need to belittle those who disagree with you. No two people agree on everything, or even necessarily everything about the things they agree on. This is a discussion board. If you can't live with disagreement best find yourself a box to seal yourself into, surely?
@Rikofold On the contrary, I am not belittling those who disagree with me. I am more than happy for those who take an alternative view to state their argument and importantly, back it up as it may alter my view. I am merely pointing out that when you have a large enough sample size you will inevitably not get 100% agreement and even in those situations where the argument is blindingly obvious (I'm not saying this is!) there will still be a very small number who can't bring themselves to agree. The point being that they don't necessarily disagree but find it difficult for no obvious reason to side with the majority, so resort to spurious reasons that even they can't support.
You have given a reason for not supporting the West Stand demonstration which I have no problem with, even though I may disagree!
So just to be clear, you are not backing the campaign, even though you agree with the campaign, but because of some individuals who might / might not be connected to the campaign?
That's fair enough though isn't it? "I agree with your aims, but I'm not sure I trust your motives enough to back you to stick to them." Not saying I agree with that, but it's a fair position to take.
Agreed (though I think it is a shame), just wanted to clarify what he meant
Exactly! Agrre with the aims but not a number of those whom will associate with this cause forpurely anti KM / RD reasons which I dont agree with!
I like the ideology that the owners work with fans to strengthen the club, hopefully the fans are prepared to work with the current owners in this respect as well. Unfortunately there are a fair few posters that seem unwilling to work with the current regime and express an opinion that they want complete change / new ownership! It is the views and opinions of these people I dont support. Whilst the poster itself does not profess to represent these individuals I do feel that they are using this campaign to further their own radical views and therefore I feel the demo will be seen as not just about ideals such as seeking greater dialogue and working with the current owner and CEO but a demonstration against them. Because of this currently I wont support it. Apologies!
You can perfectly well believe that it would be better if Duchatelet and Meire were gone while supporting the trust in engaging with them in the meantime. The two aren't mutually exclusive or even contradictory. Equally, there are people on the trust board who support this protest to my knowledge, but that doesn't mean that the trust is supporting it. The point is that there is one thing on which a large number of people are agreed, which is that it is far more than 2 per cent of supporters who are unhappy with the way the club is being run. Those people can come together on that point, whatever their view on longer-term strategy. To argue that because some of them may differ on other points they shouldn't stand together where they agree would appear crass to me.
About a crass as your response appears to me to be frank!
Now, I don't really care about the mascots per se, but Floyd and Harvey were decently put together jobs. To replace them with that Poundland robin costume and an uncuddly knight has to be a major clue (amongst many) that the quality of decisions around the management of the club are bizarre! I mean, who could think the new ones are better? It is a great test of sanity IMO. Then there is a long list of problems that are less visual but more important. Changes that have made things worse.
It's a show of force and designed to let KM and RD know that this 2% figure they spout is wrong. It's to show solidarity of fans and to air displeasure at the way our club is currently run and the strategy that isn't working - in a way that isn't offensive.
How some aren't getting that I'm not sure?
Some people get it and disagree, which is fine.
Others are just trolling, which is as sad as it is pathetic
You managed to get the word 'troll' into play before 930 - good work.
Is an explanation of the campaign / protest aims on the back of the poster ? It will help people understand what the black and white bit means.
When you're posting in the thread from 8.58, it's hardly surprising it?
I like the ideology that the owners work with fans to strengthen the club, hopefully the fans are prepared to work with the current owners in this respect as well. Unfortunately there are a fair few posters that seem unwilling to work with the current regime and express an opinion that they want complete change / new ownership! It is the views and opinions of these people I dont support. Whilst the poster itself does not profess to represent these individuals I do feel that they are using this campaign to further their own radical views and therefore I feel the demo will be seen as not just about ideals such as seeking greater dialogue and working with the current owner and CEO but a demonstration against them. Because of this currently I wont support it. Apologies!
You can perfectly well believe that it would be better if Duchatelet and Meire were gone while supporting the trust in engaging with them in the meantime. The two aren't mutually exclusive or even contradictory. Equally, there are people on the trust board who support this protest to my knowledge, but that doesn't mean that the trust is supporting it. The point is that there is one thing on which a large number of people are agreed, which is that it is far more than 2 per cent of supporters who are unhappy with the way the club is being run. Those people can come together on that point, whatever their view on longer-term strategy. To argue that because some of them may differ on other points they shouldn't stand together where they agree would appear crass to me.
About a crass as your response appears to me to be frank!
I like the ideology that the owners work with fans to strengthen the club, hopefully the fans are prepared to work with the current owners in this respect as well. Unfortunately there are a fair few posters that seem unwilling to work with the current regime and express an opinion that they want complete change / new ownership! It is the views and opinions of these people I dont support. Whilst the poster itself does not profess to represent these individuals I do feel that they are using this campaign to further their own radical views and therefore I feel the demo will be seen as not just about ideals such as seeking greater dialogue and working with the current owner and CEO but a demonstration against them. Because of this currently I wont support it. Apologies!
You can perfectly well believe that it would be better if Duchatelet and Meire were gone while supporting the trust in engaging with them in the meantime. The two aren't mutually exclusive or even contradictory. Equally, there are people on the trust board who support this protest to my knowledge, but that doesn't mean that the trust is supporting it. The point is that there is one thing on which a large number of people are agreed, which is that it is far more than 2 per cent of supporters who are unhappy with the way the club is being run. Those people can come together on that point, whatever their view on longer-term strategy. To argue that because some of them may differ on other points they shouldn't stand together where they agree would appear crass to me.
About a crass as your response appears to me to be frank!
As one of the 98%, following this discussion it seems to me that "Bromleyjohn" speaks with more wisdom than most. As for Hex,saying the club is " nose diving to oblivion." What rubbish from one of the 2%. Under the previous owners WE WERE heading into oblivion, no pitch, no players heading rapidly into League 1. The new owner has spent on a new pitch, new players, the training facilities. Life is not perfect, but the new owner has improved Our Charlton, there can be no doubt about that, I congratulate him on the work he has carried out in rescuing OUR CLUB.
I think we all agree some things RD has done has been good. However support will continue to fade away unless fans feel part of the club.
I started supporting watching Charlton 45 years ago this week. In all those years even during the bad times I have never felt so apathetic as I do at the moment. It could be as a result of all the last few years total non investment in the team. But i just dont get excited attending matches anymore.
We need to change KM & RD s approach. This protest might help. There is nothing to lose. Publicity will help. The bbc in kent cover quite abit about charlton if several of us email them at southeasttoday@bbc.co.uk they might run a story and raise its profile
Actually as a doubter yesterday and having read the aims of the black and white campaign( which I have to say I had not before today) I do agree with these but what is astonishing is why these were not mentioned more specifically in the videoed discussion as to someone like me it would have been more easier to understand. I would have needed to have gone on a particular thread which I didn't and I am sure many others did not. In conclusion I wholeheartedly support the campaign and to improve the odds of it being a success I think
1. The list of objectives should be printed or displayed for all (like me) to understand
2. Simplify the message with these objectives and not by focusing on the 2% but on the objectives themselves.
In this way the campaign is not guilty of the same crime as the chief executive namely of not explaining the campaign's purpose in a very simple way.
Actually as a doubter yesterday and having read the aims of the black and white campaign( which I have to say I had not before today) I do agree with these but what is astonishing is why these were not mentioned more specifically in the videoed discussion as to someone like me it would have been more easier to understand. I would have needed to have gone on a particular thread which I didn't and I am sure many others did not. In conclusion I wholeheartedly support the campaign and to improve the odds of it being a success I think
1. The list of objectives should be printed or displayed for all (like me) to understand
2. Simplify the message with these objectives and not by focusing on the 2% but on the objectives themselves.
In this way the campaign is not guilty of the same crime as the chief executive namely of not explaining the campaign's purpose in a very simple way.
not everyone would be so happy to change their mind so publicly so well done.
It's a useful pointer that not everyone had read or remembered the SIO four aims so we clearly need to do more to remind people about what we at least always felt were specific, reasonable and easily achievable goals
As one of the 98%, following this discussion it seems to me that "Bromleyjohn" speaks with more wisdom than most. As for Hex,saying the club is " nose diving to oblivion." What rubbish from one of the 2%. Under the previous owners WE WERE heading into oblivion, no pitch, no players heading rapidly into League 1. The new owner has spent on a new pitch, new players, the training facilities. Life is not perfect, but the new owner has improved Our Charlton, there can be no doubt about that, I congratulate him on the work he has carried out in rescuing OUR CLUB.
It looks like you are right about BromleyJohn !
It is nice to know that everything is rose-tinted for you. There's the new pitch (which had to be done and if RD was wise would have played a part in the purchase price) and new players on which quite a bit of money has been wasted. Of course there is the new training development which has not really started yet. But at least he has rescued our club ...... we owe RD so much ..... well some £40-50m at 3% interest and when RD leaves how are WE going to pay that ?
But actually the Black and White campaign is essentially not about Duchatelet or Katrien per se. It is essentially about 1. Concrete dialogue with the fans through public meetings , articles etc 2. That the board communicate the business plan (time frames and budgets) for Charlton 3. That the club reply to all non-abusive emails with the relevant managers dealing with what concerns them 4. That the club combine with the fans to improve attendances at the Valley (and Aways?)
What is not to like? The bit I don't get is that the vast majority of people wont know about these yet the assumption is that they do. There is no wisdom in seeing that just concern that it will give out very mixed messages.
A few initial thoughts on the protesting poster.
I will hold it up for the reasons above but how many others will as from the discussion on this thread few have mentioned any of these aims; its been far too personalised. A board surely has a collective responsibility as a team. Katrien strikes me as no dictator and more of a consensus facilitator and personalising this protest surely indicates a deviation from the stated aims. I think a consensual approach to the aims will be far more effective rather than an adversarial way of doing things. It will end up being an us and them (if it isn't already) and surely that goes against the stated aims of the Black and White campaign.
Seen the club are doing bag checks on the door for security reasons, on the recommendation of the Met. I do not doubt this is their genuine reason for doing this.
But I would not be surprised if the club use this as a way to stop anyone entering the ground with more than just a handful of these.. so probably best to give out as many as possible outside the ground and not rely on in the stadium distribution.
Would volunteer but can't make the game! Will be watching on TV will probably get carried away and stand and chant at the second minute as an act of solidarity!
Seen the club are doing bag checks on the door for security reasons, on the recommendation of the Met. I do not doubt this is their genuine reason for doing this.
But I would not be surprised if the club use this as a way to stop anyone entering the ground with more than just a handful of these.. so probably best to give out as many as possible outside the ground and not rely on in the stadium distribution.
Would volunteer but can't make the game! Will be watching on TV will probably get carried away and stand and chant at the second minute as an act of solidarity!
Didn't realise this has already been discussed. .. carry on....
Seen the club are doing bag checks on the door for security reasons, on the recommendation of the Met. I do not doubt this is their genuine reason for doing this.
But I would not be surprised if the club use this as a way to stop anyone entering the ground with more than just a handful of these.. so probably best to give out as many as possible outside the ground and not rely on in the stadium distribution.
Would volunteer but can't make the game! Will be watching on TV will probably get carried away and stand and chant at the second minute as an act of solidarity!
I'd imagine we will shift all the leaflets outside the ground. I was on the pavement behind the North Stand last game and was politely asked to get off Club property so I stood in the road so taking them into the ground in bulk isn't really an option.
Nothing illegal about taking in a poster is there? Don't let them take it away from you. They're supposed to be looking for terrorist threats, a protest should be the last thing they're thinking about.
But actually the Black and White campaign is essentially not about Duchatelet or Katrien per se. It is essentially about 1. Concrete dialogue with the fans through public meetings , articles etc 2. That the board communicate the business plan (time frames and budgets) for Charlton 3. That the club reply to all non-abusive emails with the relevant managers dealing with what concerns them 4. That the club combine with the fans to improve attendances at the Valley (and Aways?)
What is not to like? The bit I don't get is that the vast majority of people wont know about these yet the assumption is that they do. There is no wisdom in seeing that just concern that it will give out very mixed messages.
A few initial thoughts on the protesting poster.
I will hold it up for the reasons above but how many others will as from the discussion on this thread few have mentioned any of these aims; its been far too personalised. A board surely has a collective responsibility as a team. Katrien strikes me as no dictator and more of a consensus facilitator and personalising this protest surely indicates a deviation from the stated aims. I think a consensual approach to the aims will be far more effective rather than an adversarial way of doing things. It will end up being an us and them (if it isn't already) and surely that goes against the stated aims of the Black and White campaign.
Nothing illegal about taking in a poster is there? Don't let them take it away from you. They're supposed to be looking for terrorist threats, a protest should be the last thing they're thinking about.
@cafc_harry I remember you wanting some action done with the protests.
Well it's being done, do you want to help hand out the posters? :-)
Comments
How the owner and CEO see the campaign is largely down to them and how deluded they MAY be. Regardless, they are destroying my club and I can't let their problem stop me from doing something - and for the record my preferred option is for RD to change his plan and stop destroying our club.
My opinion is that it's a well-crafted, well-targeted campaign, I fully support its aims and I like the 2% stuff in particular because it's a very strong message. I'm in that 2% for sure and will be making that statement on Saturday.
(I'm not associating myself with the West Stand car park protest as I've said previously).
@Hex, No need to belittle those who disagree with you. No two people agree on everything, or even necessarily everything about the things they agree on. This is a discussion board. If you can't live with disagreement best find yourself a box to seal yourself into, surely?
So what will the effect be – well if it makes the owner acknowledge that there is genuine unhappiness, maybe he will address the issues. I agree that is unlikely, but the fact it is unlikely means we should take the opportunity to embarrass them. They deserve it!
I am of the view that there have been some good decisions amongst the bad. But the bad have to be accepted and not ignored or dismissed as they have the potential to severely damage our beloved club.
On the contrary, I am not belittling those who disagree with me. I am more than happy for those who take an alternative view to state their argument and importantly, back it up as it may alter my view. I am merely pointing out that when you have a large enough sample size you will inevitably not get 100% agreement and even in those situations where the argument is blindingly obvious (I'm not saying this is!) there will still be a very small number who can't bring themselves to agree. The point being that they don't necessarily disagree but find it difficult for no obvious reason to side with the majority, so resort to spurious reasons that even they can't support.
You have given a reason for not supporting the West Stand demonstration which I have no problem with, even though I may disagree!
Can our Long standing patrons please sit down so we can judge the % who stand up.
I started supporting watching Charlton 45 years ago this week. In all those years even during the bad times I have never felt so apathetic as I do at the moment. It could be as a result of all the last few years total non investment in the team. But i just dont get excited attending matches anymore.
We need to change KM & RD s approach. This protest might help. There is nothing to lose. Publicity will help. The bbc in kent cover quite abit about charlton if several of us email them at southeasttoday@bbc.co.uk they might run a story and raise its profile
1. The list of objectives should be printed or displayed for all (like me) to understand
2. Simplify the message with these objectives and not by focusing on the 2% but on the objectives themselves.
In this way the campaign is not guilty of the same crime as the chief executive namely of not explaining the campaign's purpose in a very simple way.
It's a useful pointer that not everyone had read or remembered the SIO four aims so we clearly need to do more to remind people about what we at least always felt were specific, reasonable and easily achievable goals
It is nice to know that everything is rose-tinted for you. There's the new pitch (which had to be done and if RD was wise would have played a part in the purchase price) and new players on which quite a bit of money has been wasted. Of course there is the new training development which has not really started yet. But at least he has rescued our club ...... we owe RD so much ..... well some £40-50m at 3% interest and when RD leaves how are WE going to pay that ?
1. Concrete dialogue with the fans through public meetings , articles etc
2. That the board communicate the business plan (time frames and budgets) for Charlton
3. That the club reply to all non-abusive emails with the relevant managers dealing with what concerns them
4. That the club combine with the fans to improve attendances at the Valley (and Aways?)
What is not to like? The bit I don't get is that the vast majority of people wont know about these yet the assumption is that they do. There is no wisdom in seeing that just concern that it will give out very mixed messages.
A few initial thoughts on the protesting poster.
I will hold it up for the reasons above but how many others will as from the discussion on this thread few have mentioned any of these aims; its been far too personalised. A board surely has a collective responsibility as a team. Katrien strikes me as no dictator and more of a consensus facilitator and personalising this protest surely indicates a deviation from the stated aims. I think a consensual approach to the aims will be far more effective rather than an adversarial way of doing things. It will end up being an us and them (if it isn't already) and surely that goes against the stated aims of the Black and White campaign.
But I would not be surprised if the club use this as a way to stop anyone entering the ground with more than just a handful of these.. so probably best to give out as many as possible outside the ground and not rely on in the stadium distribution.
Would volunteer but can't make the game! Will be watching on TV will probably get carried away and stand and chant at the second minute as an act of solidarity!
Well it's being done, do you want to help hand out the posters? :-)
Where did you hear that?
Surprised they're worried about that as I haven't seen that mentioned once.
The only pitch invasion I can foresee is a few thousand paper aeroplanes!! :-)
Not condoning it, but I think people may do that.
Rich Cawley article in the SLP.