Moeen hit a great knock but he's been scratching around for runs for over a year and his spinning alone wouldn't guarantee him a place in many international sides. Calling him world class is pushing it.
Compton, Vince - average, but could/hopefully will improve.
Hmmm, dont quite agree with that... would suggest that Ali definitely isnt world class - he's an ok 5th bowler and as a batsman he's a slogger at worst and a good 7 at best. However, out of that list, i would say that Bairstow could well be , by the end of the summer, a world-class batsman - plus i think Vince is better than average - and will be an England regularly by the end of summer. I also have my doubts over Stokes being a world-class player - he has one superb innings in a heck of a lot of tests - and , without looking at the stats, will probably find his average to be uite low (in low 20's) if you were to omit that particularly innings in Cape Town) Compton simply should be in the side.
Compton, Vince - average, but could/hopefully will improve.
Hmmm, dont quite agree with that... would suggest that Ali definitely isnt world class - he's an ok 5th bowler and as a batsman he's a slogger at worst and a good 7 at best. However, out of that list, i would say that Bairstow could well be , by the end of the summer, a world-class batsman - plus i think Vince is better than average - and will be an England regularly by the end of summer. I also have my doubts over Stokes being a world-class player - he has one superb innings in a heck of a lot of tests - and , without looking at the stats, will probably find his average to be uite low (in low 20's) if you were to omit that particularly innings in Cape Town) Compton simply should be in the side.
Stokes has played more than one monster innings for England . You do him a disservice by ignoring the knock he had against the Kiwi's last Summer and the one on debut down under (remember that one was against Mitchell Johnson in his pomp). He's still young enough to be forgiven his inconsistency because when he clicks he's awesome.
England have a lower middle order which has inconsistent batsmen, BUT one where each of them can play match winning innings. Between 6 and 8, the likes of Bairstow, Stokes, Moeen plus the likes of Woakes (and Buttler) are all capable of big scores, and as long as one of them clicks each match, England will have a very long batting line up
It's all very well having a team that bats to number 10 but it's bowlers who win cricket matches. We are so desperately short of class spinners in England it is really depressing. Not just international cricket, not just county cricket but even club cricket has done away with the skill of a specialist wicket keeper and the way things are going first class cricket in this country will soon discard spinners for powerful batsmen who can "turn their arm over" and produce a few off-spinners or slow left arm tweakers. We (England) have flirted with this over the years with the likes of Hick and KP and it's never worked. If we are not careful cricket will end up with nine batsmen, one of who keeps wicket, plus two proper bowlers with the batsmen making up the other overs with a combination of trunderlers and non-threatening, non-turning spinners. Cricket should be about balance, six specialist batsmen should be enough, add an all rounder and four specialist bowlers. Let's face it, who'd choose to be a bowler these days when global cricket just wants to see every bowler smashed out of the ground.
It's all very well having a team that bats to number 10 but it's bowlers who win cricket matches. We are so desperately short of class spinners in England it is really depressing. Not just international cricket, not just county cricket but even club cricket has done away with the skill of a specialist wicket keeper and the way things are going first class cricket in this country will soon discard spinners for powerful batsmen who can "turn their arm over" and produce a few off-spinners or slow left arm tweakers. We (England) have flirted with this over the years with the likes of Hick and KP and it's never worked. If we are not careful cricket will end up with nine batsmen, one of who keeps wicket, plus two proper bowlers with the batsmen making up the other overs with a combination of trunderlers and non-threatening, non-turning spinners. Cricket should be about balance, six specialist batsmen should be enough, add an all rounder and four specialist bowlers. Let's face it, who'd choose to be a bowler these days when global cricket just wants to see every bowler smashed out of the ground.
true ..we all know its a batsmans game ...the paucity of spin bowling talent is a knock on effect of limited overs cricket at all levels ..bowling under those circumstances isnt about taking wickets its about limiting runs
It's all very well having a team that bats to number 10 but it's bowlers who win cricket matches. We are so desperately short of class spinners in England it is really depressing. Not just international cricket, not just county cricket but even club cricket has done away with the skill of a specialist wicket keeper and the way things are going first class cricket in this country will soon discard spinners for powerful batsmen who can "turn their arm over" and produce a few off-spinners or slow left arm tweakers. We (England) have flirted with this over the years with the likes of Hick and KP and it's never worked. If we are not careful cricket will end up with nine batsmen, one of who keeps wicket, plus two proper bowlers with the batsmen making up the other overs with a combination of trunderlers and non-threatening, non-turning spinners. Cricket should be about balance, six specialist batsmen should be enough, add an all rounder and four specialist bowlers. Let's face it, who'd choose to be a bowler these days when global cricket just wants to see every bowler smashed out of the ground.
England have rarely produced world class spinners. Swann was the exception, Monty did well at time but before him did we have anyone consistently good until you go back to the likes of Underwood?
I agree that T20 is biased against bowlers, with the enormous bats and tiny boundaries. Apart from anything else, a top batsman can bat for all the 20 overs, and commonly for 10-15 overs, whereas your world class bowler can only bowl 4 overs.
Tufnell Croft Embury Cook Such Edmonds Ok not all world beaters but we always had one offie or SLA to call on. What has happened to the art of slow left arm bowling?
Modern bats have done for slow bowlers (as opposed to spinners). In the past subtle variations of pace, especially on more unpredictable surfaces would lead to false shots and wickets. No you have covered pitches and massive bats subtle changes don't work, you don't have to middle it to get value for the shot.
Tufnell Croft Embury Cook Such Edmonds Ok not all world beaters but we always had one offie or SLA to call on. What has happened to the art of slow left arm bowling?
To me most of these were steady, but didn't give the ball enough "rip"
I've no idea why there aren't many SLA around. It seems a lot of people bat left handed and bowl right handed!
Modern bats have done for slow bowlers (as opposed to spinners). In the past subtle variations of pace, especially on more unpredictable surfaces would lead to false shots and wickets. No you have covered pitches and massive bats subtle changes don't work, you don't have to middle it to get value for the shot.
Modern bats have done for slow bowlers (as opposed to spinners). In the past subtle variations of pace, especially on more unpredictable surfaces would lead to false shots and wickets. No you have covered pitches and massive bats subtle changes don't work, you don't have to middle it to get value for the shot.
you have a point there
I wonder if both cricket (and tennis) will have to bring in equipment restrictions
Seeing miscues regularly going over the ropes ultimately devalues both the bowler and sixes. Similarly, modern tennis rackets are so good, and with such a large sweet spot, that the power of modern ground strokes have driven out serve volley tennis
Tufnell Croft Embury Cook Such Edmonds Ok not all world beaters but we always had one offie or SLA to call on. What has happened to the art of slow left arm bowling?
These things are cyclical.
You are too young to remember but back in the sixties and seventies leg spinners were virtually non existent in the English game. You had Robin Hobbs of Essex and Harry Latchman of Middlesex when they played and that was it. Any other leg spin was batsmen who bowled a bit like Stuart Leary to give a Kentish example.
Left arm bowlers are rarer than right armers anyway so, given the problems re spin bowling in general identified above, slow left armers will be thin on the ground unless they can also bat.
We are in the era of the "bits and pieces" cricketer rather than the specialist.
It's only old dinosaurs like you and me that appear to give a toss though.
Leg spinners have never been in abundance, in any form of the game. Mainly because it such a difficult skill. You get young kids who have the ability to bowl leg spinners but to get control as well is nigh impossible and after a couple of matches where their long hops and full bungers get whacked both they and their captain lose confidence in them. You can name all the great leg spinners in history as there are so few of them.
Leg spinners have never been in abundance, in any form of the game. Mainly because it such a difficult skill. You get young kids who have the ability to bowl leg spinners but to get control as well is nigh impossible and after a couple of matches where their long hops and full bungers get whacked both they and their captain lose confidence in them. You can name all the great leg spinners in history as there are so few of them.
Agree - supports my view that Shane Warne is the greatest bowler of them all. He perfected the most difficult aspect of cricket and got a shed load of wickets.
Leg spinners have never been in abundance, in any form of the game. Mainly because it such a difficult skill. You get young kids who have the ability to bowl leg spinners but to get control as well is nigh impossible and after a couple of matches where their long hops and full bungers get whacked both they and their captain lose confidence in them. You can name all the great leg spinners in history as there are so few of them.
Agree - supports my view that Shane Warne is the greatest bowler of them all. He perfected the most difficult aspect of cricket and got a shed load of wickets.
It was his control that was amazing. Not only could he take wickets on unhelpful surfaces, he could also keep control of the run scoring.
Stuart MacGill was just as dangerous as Warne on real turners, but far less effective in less helpful conditions.
I think that, as Len says, its a cyclical thing, and that , if you look closely, we DO have a host of (leg) spinners out there - Rashid,Borthwick,Beer, and also the biggest prospect for many years in Mason Crane of Hampshire. Given the right wickets and guidance he could become a real star for England. BTW, i looked up Ben Stokes batting average - he has an average of 33.2 from 42 Test innings - if you were to deduct the 258 that he scored in Cape Town then that would be 1137 runs from 42 innings - an average of 27.07.So, that innings alone has raised his average by 6 runs - incredible. Ok, you cant take away that innings, but my point is that i believe him not to be the superstar (yet) that everyone wants to make him out to be.Yes, he's made 2 or 3 big innings, but aside from that, he hasnt done very much. Oh, and he bowled THAT bloody over in the WC final !
Warney was just a freak - an incredible bowler, and as KAF says, his main artillery was his control. Oz had not had a significant spin bowler for prob a decade or 2 before him , and noone else since his retirement.If anything Oz are in a worse position for spinners than we are- after all, Rashid was bowler of the tourno for their Big Bash this year.
I think that, as Len says, its a cyclical thing, and that , if you look closely, we DO have a host of (leg) spinners out there - Rashid,Borthwick,Beer, and also the biggest prospect for many years in Mason Crane of Hampshire. Given the right wickets and guidance he could become a real star for England. BTW, i looked up Ben Stokes batting average - he has an average of 33.2 from 42 Test innings - if you were to deduct the 258 that he scored in Cape Town then that would be 1137 runs from 42 innings - an average of 27.07.So, that innings alone has raised his average by 6 runs - incredible. Ok, you cant take away that innings, but my point is that i believe him not to be the superstar (yet) that everyone wants to make him out to be.Yes, he's made 2 or 3 big innings, but aside from that, he hasnt done very much. Oh, and he bowled THAT bloody over in the WC final !
Warney was just a freak - an incredible bowler, and as KAF says, his main artillery was his control. Oz had not had a significant spin bowler for prob a decade or 2 before him , and noone else since his retirement.If anything Oz are in a worse position for spinners than we are- after all, Rashid was bowler of the tourno for their Big Bash this year.
And to prove the point, 2 leggies playing in T20 tonight on Sky - Sussex v Somerset - Will Beer and Max Waller.
Carrying on with this game, Sussex made 222-3 with Nash making 110 not out off 60 odd balls.
Somerset making a real point of promoting their youth....they've only got Gayle,Jayawardene,Allenby,Arafat and Van Der Merwe playing. For a non-Test playing county , they've certainly opened up their wallet this season - i wonder if they're a county that might need financial assistance end of this season.? Are Kent persisting with their non-overseas line-up this season ? - if so, it makes Somersets stance really unfair.
I think that, as Len says, its a cyclical thing, and that , if you look closely, we DO have a host of (leg) spinners out there - Rashid,Borthwick,Beer, and also the biggest prospect for many years in Mason Crane of Hampshire. Given the right wickets and guidance he could become a real star for England. BTW, i looked up Ben Stokes batting average - he has an average of 33.2 from 42 Test innings - if you were to deduct the 258 that he scored in Cape Town then that would be 1137 runs from 42 innings - an average of 27.07.So, that innings alone has raised his average by 6 runs - incredible. Ok, you cant take away that innings, but my point is that i believe him not to be the superstar (yet) that everyone wants to make him out to be.Yes, he's made 2 or 3 big innings, but aside from that, he hasnt done very much. Oh, and he bowled THAT bloody over in the WC final !
And to prove the point, 2 leggies playing in T20 tonight on Sky - Sussex v Somerset - Will Beer and Max Waller.
Carrying on with this game, Sussex made 222-3 with Nash making 110 not out off 60 odd balls.
Somerset making a real point of promoting their youth....they've only got Gayle,Jayawardene,Allenby,Arafat and Van Der Merwe playing. For a non-Test playing county , they've certainly opened up their wallet this season - i wonder if they're a county that might need financial assistance end of this season.? Are Kent persisting with their non-overseas line-up this season ? - if so, it makes Somersets stance really unfair.
Kent has 2 overseas players, Latham for the summer and Rabada briefly. It always amazes me how few local players many other counties have, when compared with Kent.
And to prove the point, 2 leggies playing in T20 tonight on Sky - Sussex v Somerset - Will Beer and Max Waller.
Carrying on with this game, Sussex made 222-3 with Nash making 110 not out off 60 odd balls.
Somerset making a real point of promoting their youth....they've only got Gayle,Jayawardene,Allenby,Arafat and Van Der Merwe playing. For a non-Test playing county , they've certainly opened up their wallet this season - i wonder if they're a county that might need financial assistance end of this season.? Are Kent persisting with their non-overseas line-up this season ? - if so, it makes Somersets stance really unfair.
Kent has 2 overseas players, Latham for the summer and Rabada briefly. It always amazes me how few local players many other counties have, when compared with Kent.
That's 'cos they've got money and we haven't. So either they pay to have overseas/Kolpak players or just nick the best ones from other counties. The honorable exception is Yorkshire who have both home grown and steal players!
And to prove the point, 2 leggies playing in T20 tonight on Sky - Sussex v Somerset - Will Beer and Max Waller.
Carrying on with this game, Sussex made 222-3 with Nash making 110 not out off 60 odd balls.
Somerset making a real point of promoting their youth....they've only got Gayle,Jayawardene,Allenby,Arafat and Van Der Merwe playing. For a non-Test playing county , they've certainly opened up their wallet this season - i wonder if they're a county that might need financial assistance end of this season.? Are Kent persisting with their non-overseas line-up this season ? - if so, it makes Somersets stance really unfair.
Kent has 2 overseas players, Latham for the summer and Rabada briefly. It always amazes me how few local players many other counties have, when compared with Kent.
Back in the seventies it was said that the boundaries of Kent extended from Bridgetown to Hyderabad
Leg spinners have never been in abundance, in any form of the game. Mainly because it such a difficult skill. You get young kids who have the ability to bowl leg spinners but to get control as well is nigh impossible and after a couple of matches where their long hops and full bungers get whacked both they and their captain lose confidence in them. You can name all the great leg spinners in history as there are so few of them.
Very true. I bowled leg-spin in junior cricket and got a few wickets but when I started playing senior cricket at about 14/15 years old I spent most of my time watching my efforts getting dispatched to the boundary.
On one memorable occasion I got hoisted for two consecutive sixes onto the railway lines at the back of the Bellingham Sports Ground - I think that might have been the last time I bowled them!
And to prove the point, 2 leggies playing in T20 tonight on Sky - Sussex v Somerset - Will Beer and Max Waller.
Carrying on with this game, Sussex made 222-3 with Nash making 110 not out off 60 odd balls.
Somerset making a real point of promoting their youth....they've only got Gayle,Jayawardene,Allenby,Arafat and Van Der Merwe playing. For a non-Test playing county , they've certainly opened up their wallet this season - i wonder if they're a county that might need financial assistance end of this season.? Are Kent persisting with their non-overseas line-up this season ? - if so, it makes Somersets stance really unfair.
Kent has 2 overseas players, Latham for the summer and Rabada briefly. It always amazes me how few local players many other counties have, when compared with Kent.
Back in the seventies it was said that the boundaries of Kent extended from Bridgetown to Hyderabad
Hampshire and Gloucester had more and higher profile overseas players than Kent in the 70's.
Comments
Decent spinner and class batsman though.
World class compared to the opposition imo.
However, out of that list, i would say that Bairstow could well be , by the end of the summer, a world-class batsman - plus i think Vince is better than average - and will be an England regularly by the end of summer.
I also have my doubts over Stokes being a world-class player - he has one superb innings in a heck of a lot of tests - and , without looking at the stats, will probably find his average to be uite low (in low 20's) if you were to omit that particularly innings in Cape Town)
Compton simply should be in the side.
Cricket should be about balance, six specialist batsmen should be enough, add an all rounder and four specialist bowlers.
Let's face it, who'd choose to be a bowler these days when global cricket just wants to see every bowler smashed out of the ground.
I agree that T20 is biased against bowlers, with the enormous bats and tiny boundaries. Apart from anything else, a top batsman can bat for all the 20 overs, and commonly for 10-15 overs, whereas your world class bowler can only bowl 4 overs.
Croft
Embury
Cook
Such
Edmonds
Ok not all world beaters but we always had one offie or SLA to call on. What has happened to the art of slow left arm bowling?
I've no idea why there aren't many SLA around. It seems a lot of people bat left handed and bowl right handed!
Seeing miscues regularly going over the ropes ultimately devalues both the bowler and sixes. Similarly, modern tennis rackets are so good, and with such a large sweet spot, that the power of modern ground strokes have driven out serve volley tennis
You are too young to remember but back in the sixties and seventies leg spinners were virtually non existent in the English game. You had Robin Hobbs of Essex and Harry Latchman of Middlesex when they played and that was it. Any other leg spin was batsmen who bowled a bit like Stuart Leary to give a Kentish example.
Left arm bowlers are rarer than right armers anyway so, given the problems re spin bowling in general identified above, slow left armers will be thin on the ground unless they can also bat.
We are in the era of the "bits and pieces" cricketer rather than the specialist.
It's only old dinosaurs like you and me that appear to give a toss though.
Stuart MacGill was just as dangerous as Warne on real turners, but far less effective in less helpful conditions.
BTW, i looked up Ben Stokes batting average - he has an average of 33.2 from 42 Test innings - if you were to deduct the 258 that he scored in Cape Town then that would be 1137 runs from 42 innings - an average of 27.07.So, that innings alone has raised his average by 6 runs - incredible. Ok, you cant take away that innings, but my point is that i believe him not to be the superstar (yet) that everyone wants to make him out to be.Yes, he's made 2 or 3 big innings, but aside from that, he hasnt done very much.
Oh, and he bowled THAT bloody over in the WC final !
Warney was just a freak - an incredible bowler, and as KAF says, his main artillery was his control. Oz had not had a significant spin bowler for prob a decade or 2 before him , and noone else since his retirement.If anything Oz are in a worse position for spinners than we are- after all, Rashid was bowler of the tourno for their Big Bash this year.
Somerset making a real point of promoting their youth....they've only got Gayle,Jayawardene,Allenby,Arafat and Van Der Merwe playing. For a non-Test playing county , they've certainly opened up their wallet this season - i wonder if they're a county that might need financial assistance end of this season.?
Are Kent persisting with their non-overseas line-up this season ? - if so, it makes Somersets stance really unfair.
On one memorable occasion I got hoisted for two consecutive sixes onto the railway lines at the back of the Bellingham Sports Ground - I think that might have been the last time I bowled them!
Da Silva is probably earliest I can remember.