Grief will, and is turning to due to the real or perceived lack of official support from the authorities.
People on the ground complain of little or no presence from officials. I would expect one person organising the heroic voluntarily efforts, making sure that all centres can contact that person. That could be done by an obvious presence at each centre.
Clearly the residents have been very let down and someone will hopefully answer in due course.
May should have at least met some residents in private and ensured practical support on the ground. That's what a good leader does. She will rightly be badly thought of for her perceived lack of compassion.
Just seen a poor fella who's parents and siblings where on the top floor. He too was voicing anger at not being told what has happened to them and accused the authorities of not bothering to find out. Clearly this is not a fair accusation but more support would help I am sure.
The lead up to the deaths seems to be a total f***k up. The way ordinary people have stepped up to the mark is wonderful but the local and national government's appartent inaction in the aftermath is looking beyond words.
This is not the U.K.plc finest hour.
With regard to your comment re:absence of coordinated assistance I cannot speak for all other authorities but at least two of my certain knowledge have cut back on staff in emergency planning departments. I would expect that's a very common response when presented with making savings i.e. councils will cut the posts that are least likely to cause local objections and adverse media attention.
You may be right about cuts, I don't know but my point is about poor management.
It doesn't matter what their funding levels are, the leader of the council or the very highly paid CEO should be bringing in staff from neighbouring boroughs or demanding the government supply civil servants or military administrators to organise on the ground.
They should be picking up the ball and running with it, not sitting in the bar with their heads in their hands.
No excuse whatsoever for lack of visible action. I can see the anger only getting worse and the politicians who are not seen to act will regret it.
I think your response says more about your attitude to local authorities and the people who work for them than anything approaching the reality of the situation. Probably best we leave it there tbh.
Seems that I am not the only one with this opinion. Care to stand by or explain your comments @Bournemouth Addick ?
Not to you no I don't. If your starting point is that the "very highly paid" Chief Exec et al is washing their hands of the matter and getting pissed in a bar instead I doubt anything I might say is going to cut it.
I didn't realise that you commuted so far into work.
Eh? I don't get that at all.
As it happens I'm not in the UK at the moment so tbh I'm not able to watch events unfolding as easily as others but from what I've seen on the BBC website a group of 50 angry protestors got into the Town Hall foyer demanding 'someone' come down and speak to them and provide answers. Aside from probably not being able (yet or maybe never) to provide those answers or make those promises being demanded, because its not within their wherewithal to do so, what do you think the likelihood of having a positive outcome from a situation like that? Zero I'd say.
They may not be handling the proactive messaging side very well. I don't know. But I do know that something like this is pretty unprecedented in recent times and making a load of assumptions as you did about what is being done/what should be being done and stupid, insulting comments about the staff responsible (who I'm sure are as shocked and working as hard as they can to do whatever they can) is not helpful to the discussion.
I want you to know that I have apologised to Addickted for my comments to him yesterday
They were ill judged and wrong
He has graciously accepted my apology
My apology was via personal message
This tragedy has affected me significantly - not from any personal connection, but simply because I cannot comprehend how this could happen on our country - and my personal anger rose to levels which led me to type inappropriate comments
I want you to know that I have apologised to Addickted for my comments to him yesterday
They were ill judged and wrong
He has graciously accepted my apology
My apology was via personal message
This tragedy has affected me significantly - not from any personal connection, but simply because I cannot comprehend how this could happen on our country - and my personal anger rose to levels which led me to type inappropriate comments
Grief will, and is turning to due to the real or perceived lack of official support from the authorities.
People on the ground complain of little or no presence from officials. I would expect one person organising the heroic voluntarily efforts, making sure that all centres can contact that person. That could be done by an obvious presence at each centre.
Clearly the residents have been very let down and someone will hopefully answer in due course.
May should have at least met some residents in private and ensured practical support on the ground. That's what a good leader does. She will rightly be badly thought of for her perceived lack of compassion.
Just seen a poor fella who's parents and siblings where on the top floor. He too was voicing anger at not being told what has happened to them and accused the authorities of not bothering to find out. Clearly this is not a fair accusation but more support would help I am sure.
The lead up to the deaths seems to be a total f***k up. The way ordinary people have stepped up to the mark is wonderful but the local and national government's appartent inaction in the aftermath is looking beyond words.
This is not the U.K.plc finest hour.
With regard to your comment re:absence of coordinated assistance I cannot speak for all other authorities but at least two of my certain knowledge have cut back on staff in emergency planning departments. I would expect that's a very common response when presented with making savings i.e. councils will cut the posts that are least likely to cause local objections and adverse media attention.
You may be right about cuts, I don't know but my point is about poor management.
It doesn't matter what their funding levels are, the leader of the council or the very highly paid CEO should be bringing in staff from neighbouring boroughs or demanding the government supply civil servants or military administrators to organise on the ground.
They should be picking up the ball and running with it, not sitting in the bar with their heads in their hands.
No excuse whatsoever for lack of visible action. I can see the anger only getting worse and the politicians who are not seen to act will regret it.
I think your response says more about your attitude to local authorities and the people who work for them than anything approaching the reality of the situation. Probably best we leave it there tbh.
Seems that I am not the only one with this opinion. Care to stand by or explain your comments @Bournemouth Addick ?
Not to you no I don't. If your starting point is that the "very highly paid" Chief Exec et al is washing their hands of the matter and getting pissed in a bar instead I doubt anything I might say is going to cut it.
I didn't realise that you commuted so far into work.
Eh? I don't get that at all.
As it happens I'm not in the UK at the moment so tbh I'm not able to watch events unfolding as easily as others but from what I've seen on the BBC website a group of 50 angry protestors got into the Town Hall foyer demanding 'someone' come down and speak to them and provide answers. Aside from probably not being able (yet or maybe never) to provide those answers or make those promises being demanded, because its not within their wherewithal to do so, what do you think the likelihood of having a positive outcome from a situation like that? Zero I'd say.
They may not be handling the proactive messaging side very well. I don't know. But I do know that something like this is pretty unprecedented in recent times and making a load of assumptions as you did about what is being done/what should be being done and stupid, insulting comments about the staff responsible (who I'm sure are as shocked and working as hard as they can to do whatever they can) is not helpful to the discussion.
Really? insulting?
I thought that i was being constructive, telling them how to organise themselves, support the victims and avoid such repercussions.
It was obviously heading this way due to lack of organisation. They may or may not be working hard but they ain't working well for sure.
Perhaps, if you were in the UK and able to keep up with what is happening on the ground, you would understand this.
Grief will, and is turning to due to the real or perceived lack of official support from the authorities.
People on the ground complain of little or no presence from officials. I would expect one person organising the heroic voluntarily efforts, making sure that all centres can contact that person. That could be done by an obvious presence at each centre.
Clearly the residents have been very let down and someone will hopefully answer in due course.
May should have at least met some residents in private and ensured practical support on the ground. That's what a good leader does. She will rightly be badly thought of for her perceived lack of compassion.
Just seen a poor fella who's parents and siblings where on the top floor. He too was voicing anger at not being told what has happened to them and accused the authorities of not bothering to find out. Clearly this is not a fair accusation but more support would help I am sure.
The lead up to the deaths seems to be a total f***k up. The way ordinary people have stepped up to the mark is wonderful but the local and national government's appartent inaction in the aftermath is looking beyond words.
This is not the U.K.plc finest hour.
With regard to your comment re:absence of coordinated assistance I cannot speak for all other authorities but at least two of my certain knowledge have cut back on staff in emergency planning departments. I would expect that's a very common response when presented with making savings i.e. councils will cut the posts that are least likely to cause local objections and adverse media attention.
You may be right about cuts, I don't know but my point is about poor management.
It doesn't matter what their funding levels are, the leader of the council or the very highly paid CEO should be bringing in staff from neighbouring boroughs or demanding the government supply civil servants or military administrators to organise on the ground.
They should be picking up the ball and running with it, not sitting in the bar with their heads in their hands.
No excuse whatsoever for lack of visible action. I can see the anger only getting worse and the politicians who are not seen to act will regret it.
I think your response says more about your attitude to local authorities and the people who work for them than anything approaching the reality of the situation. Probably best we leave it there tbh.
Seems that I am not the only one with this opinion. Care to stand by or explain your comments @Bournemouth Addick ?
I don't think you understand how local authorities are allowed to work. They don't have the freedom you think they ought to have to deal with events. And actually in my experience the senior staff work longer hours than the rest of their staff without claiming back any hours over their contract. Never thought I'd say anything like that!
Grief will, and is turning to due to the real or perceived lack of official support from the authorities.
People on the ground complain of little or no presence from officials. I would expect one person organising the heroic voluntarily efforts, making sure that all centres can contact that person. That could be done by an obvious presence at each centre.
Clearly the residents have been very let down and someone will hopefully answer in due course.
May should have at least met some residents in private and ensured practical support on the ground. That's what a good leader does. She will rightly be badly thought of for her perceived lack of compassion.
Just seen a poor fella who's parents and siblings where on the top floor. He too was voicing anger at not being told what has happened to them and accused the authorities of not bothering to find out. Clearly this is not a fair accusation but more support would help I am sure.
The lead up to the deaths seems to be a total f***k up. The way ordinary people have stepped up to the mark is wonderful but the local and national government's appartent inaction in the aftermath is looking beyond words.
This is not the U.K.plc finest hour.
With regard to your comment re:absence of coordinated assistance I cannot speak for all other authorities but at least two of my certain knowledge have cut back on staff in emergency planning departments. I would expect that's a very common response when presented with making savings i.e. councils will cut the posts that are least likely to cause local objections and adverse media attention.
You may be right about cuts, I don't know but my point is about poor management.
It doesn't matter what their funding levels are, the leader of the council or the very highly paid CEO should be bringing in staff from neighbouring boroughs or demanding the government supply civil servants or military administrators to organise on the ground.
They should be picking up the ball and running with it, not sitting in the bar with their heads in their hands.
No excuse whatsoever for lack of visible action. I can see the anger only getting worse and the politicians who are not seen to act will regret it.
I think your response says more about your attitude to local authorities and the people who work for them than anything approaching the reality of the situation. Probably best we leave it there tbh.
Seems that I am not the only one with this opinion. Care to stand by or explain your comments @Bournemouth Addick ?
I don't think you understand how local authorities are allowed to work. They don't have the freedom you think they ought to have to deal with events. And actually in my experience the senior staff work longer hours than the rest of their staff without claiming back any hours over their contract. Never thought I'd say anything like that!
Grief will, and is turning to due to the real or perceived lack of official support from the authorities.
People on the ground complain of little or no presence from officials. I would expect one person organising the heroic voluntarily efforts, making sure that all centres can contact that person. That could be done by an obvious presence at each centre.
Clearly the residents have been very let down and someone will hopefully answer in due course.
May should have at least met some residents in private and ensured practical support on the ground. That's what a good leader does. She will rightly be badly thought of for her perceived lack of compassion.
Just seen a poor fella who's parents and siblings where on the top floor. He too was voicing anger at not being told what has happened to them and accused the authorities of not bothering to find out. Clearly this is not a fair accusation but more support would help I am sure.
The lead up to the deaths seems to be a total f***k up. The way ordinary people have stepped up to the mark is wonderful but the local and national government's appartent inaction in the aftermath is looking beyond words.
This is not the U.K.plc finest hour.
With regard to your comment re:absence of coordinated assistance I cannot speak for all other authorities but at least two of my certain knowledge have cut back on staff in emergency planning departments. I would expect that's a very common response when presented with making savings i.e. councils will cut the posts that are least likely to cause local objections and adverse media attention.
You may be right about cuts, I don't know but my point is about poor management.
It doesn't matter what their funding levels are, the leader of the council or the very highly paid CEO should be bringing in staff from neighbouring boroughs or demanding the government supply civil servants or military administrators to organise on the ground.
They should be picking up the ball and running with it, not sitting in the bar with their heads in their hands.
No excuse whatsoever for lack of visible action. I can see the anger only getting worse and the politicians who are not seen to act will regret it.
I think your response says more about your attitude to local authorities and the people who work for them than anything approaching the reality of the situation. Probably best we leave it there tbh.
Seems that I am not the only one with this opinion. Care to stand by or explain your comments @Bournemouth Addick ?
Not to you no I don't. If your starting point is that the "very highly paid" Chief Exec et al is washing their hands of the matter and getting pissed in a bar instead I doubt anything I might say is going to cut it.
I didn't realise that you commuted so far into work.
Eh? I don't get that at all.
As it happens I'm not in the UK at the moment so tbh I'm not able to watch events unfolding as easily as others but from what I've seen on the BBC website a group of 50 angry protestors got into the Town Hall foyer demanding 'someone' come down and speak to them and provide answers. Aside from probably not being able (yet or maybe never) to provide those answers or make those promises being demanded, because its not within their wherewithal to do so, what do you think the likelihood of having a positive outcome from a situation like that? Zero I'd say.
They may not be handling the proactive messaging side very well. I don't know. But I do know that something like this is pretty unprecedented in recent times and making a load of assumptions as you did about what is being done/what should be being done and stupid, insulting comments about the staff responsible (who I'm sure are as shocked and working as hard as they can to do whatever they can) is not helpful to the discussion.
Really? insulting?
I thought that i was being constructive, telling them how to organise themselves, support the victims and avoid such repercussions.
It was obviously heading this way due to lack of organisation. They may or may not be working hard but they ain't working well for sure.
Perhaps, if you were in the UK and able to keep up with what is happening on the ground, you would understand this.
Yeah insulting. Bringing the Chief Exec's pay into the discussion, as if that's relevant, suggesting they have given up and gone to the pub instead of the reality which I suspect involves working around the clock, stating what they should be doing without knowing whether they are already doing this, you know just generally telling them how to do their job...
Grief will, and is turning to due to the real or perceived lack of official support from the authorities.
People on the ground complain of little or no presence from officials. I would expect one person organising the heroic voluntarily efforts, making sure that all centres can contact that person. That could be done by an obvious presence at each centre.
Clearly the residents have been very let down and someone will hopefully answer in due course.
May should have at least met some residents in private and ensured practical support on the ground. That's what a good leader does. She will rightly be badly thought of for her perceived lack of compassion.
Just seen a poor fella who's parents and siblings where on the top floor. He too was voicing anger at not being told what has happened to them and accused the authorities of not bothering to find out. Clearly this is not a fair accusation but more support would help I am sure.
The lead up to the deaths seems to be a total f***k up. The way ordinary people have stepped up to the mark is wonderful but the local and national government's appartent inaction in the aftermath is looking beyond words.
This is not the U.K.plc finest hour.
With regard to your comment re:absence of coordinated assistance I cannot speak for all other authorities but at least two of my certain knowledge have cut back on staff in emergency planning departments. I would expect that's a very common response when presented with making savings i.e. councils will cut the posts that are least likely to cause local objections and adverse media attention.
You may be right about cuts, I don't know but my point is about poor management.
It doesn't matter what their funding levels are, the leader of the council or the very highly paid CEO should be bringing in staff from neighbouring boroughs or demanding the government supply civil servants or military administrators to organise on the ground.
They should be picking up the ball and running with it, not sitting in the bar with their heads in their hands.
No excuse whatsoever for lack of visible action. I can see the anger only getting worse and the politicians who are not seen to act will regret it.
I think your response says more about your attitude to local authorities and the people who work for them than anything approaching the reality of the situation. Probably best we leave it there tbh.
Seems that I am not the only one with this opinion. Care to stand by or explain your comments @Bournemouth Addick ?
Not to you no I don't. If your starting point is that the "very highly paid" Chief Exec et al is washing their hands of the matter and getting pissed in a bar instead I doubt anything I might say is going to cut it.
I didn't realise that you commuted so far into work.
Eh? I don't get that at all.
As it happens I'm not in the UK at the moment so tbh I'm not able to watch events unfolding as easily as others but from what I've seen on the BBC website a group of 50 angry protestors got into the Town Hall foyer demanding 'someone' come down and speak to them and provide answers. Aside from probably not being able (yet or maybe never) to provide those answers or make those promises being demanded, because its not within their wherewithal to do so, what do you think the likelihood of having a positive outcome from a situation like that? Zero I'd say.
They may not be handling the proactive messaging side very well. I don't know. But I do know that something like this is pretty unprecedented in recent times and making a load of assumptions as you did about what is being done/what should be being done and stupid, insulting comments about the staff responsible (who I'm sure are as shocked and working as hard as they can to do whatever they can) is not helpful to the discussion.
Really? insulting?
I thought that i was being constructive, telling them how to organise themselves, support the victims and avoid such repercussions.
It was obviously heading this way due to lack of organisation. They may or may not be working hard but they ain't working well for sure.
Perhaps, if you were in the UK and able to keep up with what is happening on the ground, you would understand this.
Yeah insulting. Bringing the Chief Exec's pay into the discussion, as if that's relevant, suggesting they have given up and gone to the pub instead of the reality which I suspect involves working around the clock, stating what they should be doing without knowing whether they are already doing this, you know just generally telling them how to do their job...
Crap mate. We all know that ain't doing what I have urged to.
They may not be down the pub but they might as well as far as the victims are concerned.
You clearly don't see why there is so much anger now on the ground.
There are lots of issues but this was one that could and should have been sorted in the first few hours. Certainly by the time the working day started.
This will come out at least in the enquiry if not much earlier.
RIP the victims - many of them seemed to be amongst the most vulnerable in society and have been let down very badly by the richest borough in the UK. Hopefully lessons will be learnt from this appalling tragedy.
Just heard one protester saying people are coming from all over the country, saw a tweet earlier echoing that from another calling for back up. Last thing this needs is the anarchy anti-capitalist rent a mob jumping on it.
Just heard one protester saying people are coming from all over the country, saw a tweet earlier echoing that from another calling for back up. Last thing this needs is the anarchy anti-capitalist rent a mob jumping on it.
What a shit couple of months
There's almost certain to be local riots. Whether they spread outside of West London is the real question.
Just heard one protester saying people are coming from all over the country, saw a tweet earlier echoing that from another calling for back up. Last thing this needs is the anarchy anti-capitalist rent a mob jumping on it.
What a shit couple of months
There's almost certain to be local riots. Whether they spread outside of West London is the real question.
The working class heroes of the SWP were at the demo, so they will stir it up.
It is clear that your residents should feel assured and safe, but I dont think any of us can say that applies to all. You have said you are sure a fire in one of your buildings wouldn't spread like at Grenfall which does you credit, but it must be the case that the person responsible for Grenfall couldn't have said that. I think that is why it is legitimate for us non-experts to ask questions - some will be stupid of course, but I don't think anybody should feel like they can't raise points and ask questions in fear of them being stupid.
It is clear cost cutting does not occur when it comes to the safety of your buildings, but if what is being widely reported is true, opting for materials that cost £2 less than the Flame retardant ones surely can only be cost cutting. Of course the reasons for this may be wide and varied. But we should seek to find out what they are to learn lessons. Also might be useful to see how those like you who manage with excellent practice do so. You are critical of your management, which could be an issue for people not as competent as you who might be influenced by managers who do not understand.
Is that fair?
I'm not critical of my management. They are fine as long as they leave me to manage my team accordingly, provide me with the funding that is required - they always do - and actually trust me to get on with my job.
I know some are only trying to help but I'm not sure how many times I've had to tell some the same amount of information or provide specific data.
A lot of fire safety is 'guidance' and best practice and some people seem to struggle to understand this. For instance I've developed a suitable fire action notice for six different tenures/types of building. LFB have approved it and requested if they could pass this onto other Housing Associations for them to use. I do get a buzz walking into a building owned by another HA and seeing my Fire Action Notices in different Corporate colours.
Could I just ask the following ? If it transpires that a block is clad in the same material as Grenfell which meets existing fire regulations yet appears to present a huge fire risk then what can someone in your position reasonably do.
It seems unlikely that regulations will change or be reviewed in the near future so where does that leave those responsible for fire protection?
I would ensure destructive survey and full third party testing of the material for compliance to the Building Regulations. I have already arranged this for blocks with similar cladding.
If I told my CEO the cladding should be replaced, he would make it happen. And then we'd sue the arse of whoever installed it.
If he didn't I would speak to the Fire Brigade an insist on a prohibition notice being served.
Glad to hear that you do have options - can't be an easy job at the moment!
Haven't seen it officially reported anywhere that he was a council worker, although that doesn't excuse violence.
One picture that's been missed is the one where the guy in the suit is angrily shouting at protestors.
Not sure what the full story is here but that hasn't stopped Daily Express and the like jumping a few selective pictures and portraying just one side as violent.
Comments
As it happens I'm not in the UK at the moment so tbh I'm not able to watch events unfolding as easily as others but from what I've seen on the BBC website a group of 50 angry protestors got into the Town Hall foyer demanding 'someone' come down and speak to them and provide answers. Aside from probably not being able (yet or maybe never) to provide those answers or make those promises being demanded, because its not within their wherewithal to do so, what do you think the likelihood of having a positive outcome from a situation like that? Zero I'd say.
They may not be handling the proactive messaging side very well. I don't know. But I do know that something like this is pretty unprecedented in recent times and making a load of assumptions as you did about what is being done/what should be being done and stupid, insulting comments about the staff responsible (who I'm sure are as shocked and working as hard as they can to do whatever they can) is not helpful to the discussion.
I want you to know that I have apologised to Addickted for my comments to him yesterday
They were ill judged and wrong
He has graciously accepted my apology
My apology was via personal message
This tragedy has affected me significantly - not from any personal connection, but simply because I cannot comprehend how this could happen on our country - and my personal anger rose to levels which led me to type inappropriate comments
Please accept my apologies
I thought that i was being constructive, telling them how to organise themselves, support the victims and avoid such repercussions.
It was obviously heading this way due to lack of organisation. They may or may not be working hard but they ain't working well for sure.
Perhaps, if you were in the UK and able to keep up with what is happening on the ground, you would understand this.
Never thought I'd say anything like that!
They may not be down the pub but they might as well as far as the victims are concerned.
You clearly don't see why there is so much anger now on the ground.
There are lots of issues but this was one that could and should have been sorted in the first few hours. Certainly by the time the working day started.
This will come out at least in the enquiry if not much earlier.
Give it a rest A.
Just heard one protester saying people are coming from all over the country, saw a tweet earlier echoing that from another calling for back up. Last thing this needs is the anarchy anti-capitalist rent a mob jumping on it.
What a shit couple of months
He actually took pictures inside the body bag. I can't get my head round why someone would do that.
He's been jailed.
One picture that's been missed is the one where the guy in the suit is angrily shouting at protestors.
Not sure what the full story is here but that hasn't stopped Daily Express and the like jumping a few selective pictures and portraying just one side as violent.