I hope we dont sign him, i thought he was dreadfully lightweight when he should of been in his physical prime so lords knows how his body will ve after the injuries, also he showed his attitude when Bowyer criticised him and he resorted to posting indirects on social media like a teenage girl instead of speaking to him.
What Jonny was subjected to by Bowyer was bullying not criticising, several senior players had to intervene.
Thats a very weak interpretation of bullying. Bowyer publicly stated a fact which was Williams bottled out of a challenge. Also it doesnt change the fact that Williams choice to respond to Bowyer was to post indirects on social media which isnt really hwo a man should deal with things.
The "he bottled a challenge" comment is not the bullying I was referring to. Bowyer can be an aggressive individual, perhaps Jonny felt intimidated in continuing the confrontation in person.
Both Darren Pratley and Ben Watson felt LB's behaviour was over the line and both had to step in, would they do that if it was just a bit of criticism?
Sadly not every one can "deal with things like a man" whatever that even means.
How do you know pratley and watson stepped in ?
Im sorey it tells me everything i need to know about his character, he felt intimidated so went online and posted indirects like a teenager.
Like a man i mean with dignity and self-respect. Go and speak to the person directly you have an issue with.
Also you say his behaviour was over the line yet havent stated one example where his behaviour was over the line ?
I know what happened because I personally know one of the people involved very well.
You may be the kind of person who doesn't get intimidated when someone is shouting in your face, however a large amount of people will be.
If you can't understand that then there isn't much point in continuing this commentary.
Ok fair enough i cant judge for your personal circumstances.
Also cant judge whether about Bowyer shouting in his face as thats not public knowledge. If it did happen, which im not disputing i think the only way to deal with that is to shout back. Maybe i am being a bit harsh on JW and "his character", i dont know him.
Personally yes I probably would shout back, however I also recognise that some people wouldn't feel comfortable doing that is it often escalates a situation to become potentially violent.
Just because JW may not want a potentially violent confrontation to occur does not make him any "less of man" or lacking in dignity/self respect. If you do believe those things then that it is a damning indictment on your own character and not his.
Absolutley not an indictment of my own character that i believe people should hold them selves with more dignity and not cower from confrontation.
What if JW was a woman, would it be okay for him "cower from confrontation"?
What if LB was a professional boxer would it be okay for JW to "cower from confrontation"?
Firstly i dont believe men should act aggressivly to women.
What if ? What if ? What if we deal with facts ?
Also yes if he was a professional boxer its still not a reason to cower from confrontation, confrontation doesnt equal violence.
Okay, here's a fact: Lee Bowyer has been charged with GBH and affray in a court of law.
Here's another fact: Lee Bowyer got a red card for getting into a punch up with someone on his own team.
Based on those facts, your plan for confrontation is to shout in his face? Good luck, God speed.
Ok so your plan for life it let people talk to you however they feel like on the off chance they might be violent ? And your only recourse will be to post indirects on social media
I understand why you think confrontation can be necessary, standing up for yourself is one way of stopping bullying or disrespect and it's what most of us are taught as kids so we don't get pushed around at school. But not everyone responds to conflict in the same way. Different personalities handle different situations differently. Some people are non-confrontational by nature, and to them, the idea of confronting someone head-on is practically as unthinkable as you supporting Millwall tomorrow.
Some people are sensitive and prefer to have mediated solutions, or negotiate through other people, or wait until things have completely calmed down and everyone has moved on to later approach the issue. Some people were beaten or abused by a dominant adult in their childhood who gave them no confidence in their ability to handle confrontation, or maybe even had an overbearing parent who never let them handle anything on their own.
Plus, confrontation can escalate the situation. Especially if you're dealing with someone you know to be hotheaded. Like I say, it can be a good way of solving problems, and it can often not be a good way. So it's easy to see why some people prefer others.
Thats a fair point and well balanaced.
My point im trying to make more so is -
Bowyer criticism of JW (in the public realm) was fair and truthful. I cant comment on what went on behind close doors. I accept you make a good point maybe its to do with upbringing and personality types, but why did he them make indirects on social media
I think the problem is that the public criticism (justified or not) was part of a series of events or pattern of behaviour.
For what its worth I do agree that going through the social media route probably didn't do much to improve or resolve the situation but given it was a reaction to what Bowyer had done its hard to hold it against Williams, personally.
I hope we dont sign him, i thought he was dreadfully lightweight when he should of been in his physical prime so lords knows how his body will ve after the injuries, also he showed his attitude when Bowyer criticised him and he resorted to posting indirects on social media like a teenage girl instead of speaking to him.
What Jonny was subjected to by Bowyer was bullying not criticising, several senior players had to intervene.
Thats a very weak interpretation of bullying. Bowyer publicly stated a fact which was Williams bottled out of a challenge. Also it doesnt change the fact that Williams choice to respond to Bowyer was to post indirects on social media which isnt really hwo a man should deal with things.
The "he bottled a challenge" comment is not the bullying I was referring to. Bowyer can be an aggressive individual, perhaps Jonny felt intimidated in continuing the confrontation in person.
Both Darren Pratley and Ben Watson felt LB's behaviour was over the line and both had to step in, would they do that if it was just a bit of criticism?
Sadly not every one can "deal with things like a man" whatever that even means.
How do you know pratley and watson stepped in ?
Im sorey it tells me everything i need to know about his character, he felt intimidated so went online and posted indirects like a teenager.
Like a man i mean with dignity and self-respect. Go and speak to the person directly you have an issue with.
Also you say his behaviour was over the line yet havent stated one example where his behaviour was over the line ?
I know what happened because I personally know one of the people involved very well.
You may be the kind of person who doesn't get intimidated when someone is shouting in your face, however a large amount of people will be.
If you can't understand that then there isn't much point in continuing this commentary.
Ok fair enough i cant judge for your personal circumstances.
Also cant judge whether about Bowyer shouting in his face as thats not public knowledge. If it did happen, which im not disputing i think the only way to deal with that is to shout back. Maybe i am being a bit harsh on JW and "his character", i dont know him.
It was alleged at the time that the main incident extremely upset Chuks Aneke, with a number of players apparently saying that Bowyer was massively out of order and something needed to be done about him and his behaviour.
I hope we dont sign him, i thought he was dreadfully lightweight when he should of been in his physical prime so lords knows how his body will ve after the injuries, also he showed his attitude when Bowyer criticised him and he resorted to posting indirects on social media like a teenage girl instead of speaking to him.
What Jonny was subjected to by Bowyer was bullying not criticising, several senior players had to intervene.
Thats a very weak interpretation of bullying. Bowyer publicly stated a fact which was Williams bottled out of a challenge. Also it doesnt change the fact that Williams choice to respond to Bowyer was to post indirects on social media which isnt really hwo a man should deal with things.
The "he bottled a challenge" comment is not the bullying I was referring to. Bowyer can be an aggressive individual, perhaps Jonny felt intimidated in continuing the confrontation in person.
Both Darren Pratley and Ben Watson felt LB's behaviour was over the line and both had to step in, would they do that if it was just a bit of criticism?
Sadly not every one can "deal with things like a man" whatever that even means.
How do you know pratley and watson stepped in ?
Im sorey it tells me everything i need to know about his character, he felt intimidated so went online and posted indirects like a teenager.
Like a man i mean with dignity and self-respect. Go and speak to the person directly you have an issue with.
Also you say his behaviour was over the line yet havent stated one example where his behaviour was over the line ?
I know what happened because I personally know one of the people involved very well.
You may be the kind of person who doesn't get intimidated when someone is shouting in your face, however a large amount of people will be.
If you can't understand that then there isn't much point in continuing this commentary.
Ok fair enough i cant judge for your personal circumstances.
Also cant judge whether about Bowyer shouting in his face as thats not public knowledge. If it did happen, which im not disputing i think the only way to deal with that is to shout back. Maybe i am being a bit harsh on JW and "his character", i dont know him.
'Why didn't Jonny Williams just scream in legendarily calm and reflective manager Lee Bowyer's face? What is he, a girl?' is a novel take, I'll give it that
So you are going to let someone scream in your face ?
I hope we dont sign him, i thought he was dreadfully lightweight when he should of been in his physical prime so lords knows how his body will ve after the injuries, also he showed his attitude when Bowyer criticised him and he resorted to posting indirects on social media like a teenage girl instead of speaking to him.
What Jonny was subjected to by Bowyer was bullying not criticising, several senior players had to intervene.
Thats a very weak interpretation of bullying. Bowyer publicly stated a fact which was Williams bottled out of a challenge. Also it doesnt change the fact that Williams choice to respond to Bowyer was to post indirects on social media which isnt really hwo a man should deal with things.
The "he bottled a challenge" comment is not the bullying I was referring to. Bowyer can be an aggressive individual, perhaps Jonny felt intimidated in continuing the confrontation in person.
Both Darren Pratley and Ben Watson felt LB's behaviour was over the line and both had to step in, would they do that if it was just a bit of criticism?
Sadly not every one can "deal with things like a man" whatever that even means.
How do you know pratley and watson stepped in ?
Im sorey it tells me everything i need to know about his character, he felt intimidated so went online and posted indirects like a teenager.
Like a man i mean with dignity and self-respect. Go and speak to the person directly you have an issue with.
Also you say his behaviour was over the line yet havent stated one example where his behaviour was over the line ?
I know what happened because I personally know one of the people involved very well.
You may be the kind of person who doesn't get intimidated when someone is shouting in your face, however a large amount of people will be.
If you can't understand that then there isn't much point in continuing this commentary.
Ok fair enough i cant judge for your personal circumstances.
Also cant judge whether about Bowyer shouting in his face as thats not public knowledge. If it did happen, which im not disputing i think the only way to deal with that is to shout back. Maybe i am being a bit harsh on JW and "his character", i dont know him.
'Why didn't Jonny Williams just scream in legendarily calm and reflective manager Lee Bowyer's face? What is he, a girl?' is a novel take, I'll give it that
So you are going to let someone scream in your face ?
I'm not gonna start a ruck with some cnut who i don't trust not to clump me and I'm weak as piss but if i could outrun the cnut i'd let em know what they are . All about weighing the situation up
I wonder if Bowyer would have had a crack at Innis?!
I hope we dont sign him, i thought he was dreadfully lightweight when he should of been in his physical prime so lords knows how his body will ve after the injuries, also he showed his attitude when Bowyer criticised him and he resorted to posting indirects on social media like a teenage girl instead of speaking to him.
What Jonny was subjected to by Bowyer was bullying not criticising, several senior players had to intervene.
Thats a very weak interpretation of bullying. Bowyer publicly stated a fact which was Williams bottled out of a challenge. Also it doesnt change the fact that Williams choice to respond to Bowyer was to post indirects on social media which isnt really hwo a man should deal with things.
The "he bottled a challenge" comment is not the bullying I was referring to. Bowyer can be an aggressive individual, perhaps Jonny felt intimidated in continuing the confrontation in person.
Both Darren Pratley and Ben Watson felt LB's behaviour was over the line and both had to step in, would they do that if it was just a bit of criticism?
Sadly not every one can "deal with things like a man" whatever that even means.
How do you know pratley and watson stepped in ?
Im sorey it tells me everything i need to know about his character, he felt intimidated so went online and posted indirects like a teenager.
Like a man i mean with dignity and self-respect. Go and speak to the person directly you have an issue with.
Also you say his behaviour was over the line yet havent stated one example where his behaviour was over the line ?
I know what happened because I personally know one of the people involved very well.
You may be the kind of person who doesn't get intimidated when someone is shouting in your face, however a large amount of people will be.
If you can't understand that then there isn't much point in continuing this commentary.
Ok fair enough i cant judge for your personal circumstances.
Also cant judge whether about Bowyer shouting in his face as thats not public knowledge. If it did happen, which im not disputing i think the only way to deal with that is to shout back. Maybe i am being a bit harsh on JW and "his character", i dont know him.
It was alleged at the time that the main incident extremely upset Chuks Aneke, with a number of players apparently saying that Bowyer was massively out of order and something needed to be done about him and his behaviour.
This kind of the problem, things like alleged and people saying senior players involved, behind the scenes etc.
If Bowyer was screaming in JWs face its hard to condone but from the outside we didnt see that. We saw (imo) LB criticise JW fairly (perhaps a bit embarrasing for JW) and JW respond by posting an indirect on social media which for me personally isnt a trait or behaviour that commands respect.
I hope we dont sign him, i thought he was dreadfully lightweight when he should of been in his physical prime so lords knows how his body will ve after the injuries, also he showed his attitude when Bowyer criticised him and he resorted to posting indirects on social media like a teenage girl instead of speaking to him.
What Jonny was subjected to by Bowyer was bullying not criticising, several senior players had to intervene.
Thats a very weak interpretation of bullying. Bowyer publicly stated a fact which was Williams bottled out of a challenge. Also it doesnt change the fact that Williams choice to respond to Bowyer was to post indirects on social media which isnt really hwo a man should deal with things.
The "he bottled a challenge" comment is not the bullying I was referring to. Bowyer can be an aggressive individual, perhaps Jonny felt intimidated in continuing the confrontation in person.
Both Darren Pratley and Ben Watson felt LB's behaviour was over the line and both had to step in, would they do that if it was just a bit of criticism?
Sadly not every one can "deal with things like a man" whatever that even means.
How do you know pratley and watson stepped in ?
Im sorey it tells me everything i need to know about his character, he felt intimidated so went online and posted indirects like a teenager.
Like a man i mean with dignity and self-respect. Go and speak to the person directly you have an issue with.
Also you say his behaviour was over the line yet havent stated one example where his behaviour was over the line ?
I know what happened because I personally know one of the people involved very well.
You may be the kind of person who doesn't get intimidated when someone is shouting in your face, however a large amount of people will be.
If you can't understand that then there isn't much point in continuing this commentary.
Ok fair enough i cant judge for your personal circumstances.
Also cant judge whether about Bowyer shouting in his face as thats not public knowledge. If it did happen, which im not disputing i think the only way to deal with that is to shout back. Maybe i am being a bit harsh on JW and "his character", i dont know him.
Personally yes I probably would shout back, however I also recognise that some people wouldn't feel comfortable doing that is it often escalates a situation to become potentially violent.
Just because JW may not want a potentially violent confrontation to occur does not make him any "less of man" or lacking in dignity/self respect. If you do believe those things then that it is a damning indictment on your own character and not his.
Absolutley not an indictment of my own character that i believe people should hold them selves with more dignity and not cower from confrontation.
What if JW was a woman, would it be okay for him "cower from confrontation"?
What if LB was a professional boxer would it be okay for JW to "cower from confrontation"?
Firstly i dont believe men should act aggressivly to women.
What if ? What if ? What if we deal with facts ?
Also yes if he was a professional boxer its still not a reason to cower from confrontation, confrontation doesnt equal violence.
Okay, here's a fact: Lee Bowyer has been charged with GBH and affray in a court of law.
Here's another fact: Lee Bowyer got a red card for getting into a punch up with someone on his own team.
Based on those facts, your plan for confrontation is to shout in his face? Good luck, God speed.
Ok so your plan for life it let people talk to you however they feel like on the off chance they might be violent ? And your only recourse will be to post indirects on social media
I understand why you think confrontation can be necessary, standing up for yourself is one way of stopping bullying or disrespect and it's what most of us are taught as kids so we don't get pushed around at school. But not everyone responds to conflict in the same way. Different personalities handle different situations differently. Some people are non-confrontational by nature, and to them, the idea of confronting someone head-on is practically as unthinkable as you supporting Millwall tomorrow.
Some people are sensitive and prefer to have mediated solutions, or negotiate through other people, or wait until things have completely calmed down and everyone has moved on to later approach the issue. Some people were beaten or abused by a dominant adult in their childhood who gave them no confidence in their ability to handle confrontation, or maybe even had an overbearing parent who never let them handle anything on their own.
Plus, confrontation can escalate the situation. Especially if you're dealing with someone you know to be hotheaded. Like I say, it can be a good way of solving problems, and it can often not be a good way. So it's easy to see why some people prefer others.
Thats a fair point and well balanaced.
My point im trying to make more so is -
Bowyer criticism of JW (in the public realm) was fair and truthful. I cant comment on what went on behind close doors. I accept you make a good point maybe its to do with upbringing and personality types, but why did he them make indirects on social media
I think the problem is that the public criticism (justified or not) was part of a series of events or pattern of behaviour.
For what its worth I do agree that going through the social media route probably didn't do much to improve or resolve the situation but given it was a reaction to what Bowyer had done its hard to hold it against Williams, personally.
Yeah i think i allowed myself to get drawn in to an argument about shouting in peoples face which for me it was nevwr really about.
More the virtues of using an indirect. If JW didnt want to shout in his face back i fully understandbut perhaps there were better ways to deal with it tgan go to social media.
I hope we dont sign him, i thought he was dreadfully lightweight when he should of been in his physical prime so lords knows how his body will ve after the injuries, also he showed his attitude when Bowyer criticised him and he resorted to posting indirects on social media like a teenage girl instead of speaking to him.
What Jonny was subjected to by Bowyer was bullying not criticising, several senior players had to intervene.
Thats a very weak interpretation of bullying. Bowyer publicly stated a fact which was Williams bottled out of a challenge. Also it doesnt change the fact that Williams choice to respond to Bowyer was to post indirects on social media which isnt really hwo a man should deal with things.
The "he bottled a challenge" comment is not the bullying I was referring to. Bowyer can be an aggressive individual, perhaps Jonny felt intimidated in continuing the confrontation in person.
Both Darren Pratley and Ben Watson felt LB's behaviour was over the line and both had to step in, would they do that if it was just a bit of criticism?
Sadly not every one can "deal with things like a man" whatever that even means.
How do you know pratley and watson stepped in ?
Im sorey it tells me everything i need to know about his character, he felt intimidated so went online and posted indirects like a teenager.
Like a man i mean with dignity and self-respect. Go and speak to the person directly you have an issue with.
Also you say his behaviour was over the line yet havent stated one example where his behaviour was over the line ?
I know what happened because I personally know one of the people involved very well.
You may be the kind of person who doesn't get intimidated when someone is shouting in your face, however a large amount of people will be.
If you can't understand that then there isn't much point in continuing this commentary.
Ok fair enough i cant judge for your personal circumstances.
Also cant judge whether about Bowyer shouting in his face as thats not public knowledge. If it did happen, which im not disputing i think the only way to deal with that is to shout back. Maybe i am being a bit harsh on JW and "his character", i dont know him.
It was alleged at the time that the main incident extremely upset Chuks Aneke, with a number of players apparently saying that Bowyer was massively out of order and something needed to be done about him and his behaviour.
The poor old Chuks who was so extremely upset he followed him to Birmingham. That Chuks?
This is exactly what I mean about people saying things like lack of ambition or knows his level, he is extremely lucky, compared to 90% of lower league players, in that he can play where he wants, not where he needs to.
After his unhappy time at Sunderland, a slight risk I suppose in moving up north again. Bradford is a big club at that level, indeed a sleeping giant by L2 standards.
Yep, apparently rejected European football at Hibs for a longer contract
Ultimately at this stage of his career he has to go where he is paid most. At the end of they, my personal thpughts on him as a footballer aside and how he conducted himself i hope it works out for him.
Yep, apparently rejected European football at Hibs for a longer contract
Ultimately at this stage of his career he has to go where he is paid most. At the end of they, my personal thpughts on him as a footballer aside and how he conducted himself i hope it works out for him.
So why didn't he sign for Wrexham or Gillingham who are offering more wages than us?
It's the second move in a row where he has picked a manager he wants to play for rather than a higher wage.
JW strikes me as someone who wants an easy life rather than to push his limits as a footballer. Most players want to play at the highest level they can. Fair enough, it's his life after all, but that's not the type of player I'd want at my club.
JW strikes me as someone who wants an easy life rather than to push his limits as a footballer. Most players want to play at the highest level they can. Fair enough, it's his life after all, but that's not the type of player I'd want at my club.
Tbf, if it is true that he is not money motivated, good luck to him on moving to a club/area he feels more comfortable with.
Williams was a great disappointment. Proof that being a lovely guy just wasn’t enough. Flattered to deceive on so many levels. Loved him initially but it became evident that when he was not injured his sole contribution was to gain five yards and win a free kick. End product was awful.
After his unhappy time at Sunderland, a slight risk I suppose in moving up north again. Bradford is a big club at that level, indeed a sleeping giant by L2 standards.
JW strikes me as someone who wants an easy life rather than to push his limits as a footballer. Most players want to play at the highest level they can. Fair enough, it's his life after all, but that's not the type of player I'd want at my club.
For most players I'd agree, however Williams always applied himself and though I didn't rate him as highly as some did, he never hid (may have jumped a challenge or two) but he was kicked for pretty much 60 minutes week in week out.
Yep, apparently rejected European football at Hibs for a longer contract
Ultimately at this stage of his career he has to go where he is paid most. At the end of they, my personal thpughts on him as a footballer aside and how he conducted himself i hope it works out for him.
So why didn't he sign for Wrexham or Gillingham who are offering more wages than us?
It's the second move in a row where he has picked a manager he wants to play for rather than a higher wage.
What ? He hasnt signed for us ? Im not talking about his previous move. Im talking specically this move to Bradford on a 3 year deal, which i assume is going to make him more money than a 1 or 2 year.
Also how do you know how much he is making compared to other deals ?
Williams was a great disappointment. Proof that being a lovely guy just wasn’t enough. Flattered to deceive on so many levels. Loved him initially but it became evident that when he was not injured his sole contribution was to gain five yards and win a free kick. End product was awful.
Honestly this is probably about right, i consider him premium mediocrity. He looked mustard getting ball to feet and turning but very little of the time did he actually do anything that contributed to the game in open play. Also whilst he is a nice guy, he is clearly a very sensitive guy and that was never going to work under Bowyer.
Of course i say this knowing that he has friends and/or family on this forum so he cant be criticised in anyway.
Yep, apparently rejected European football at Hibs for a longer contract
Ultimately at this stage of his career he has to go where he is paid most. At the end of they, my personal thpughts on him as a footballer aside and how he conducted himself i hope it works out for him.
So why didn't he sign for Wrexham or Gillingham who are offering more wages than us?
It's the second move in a row where he has picked a manager he wants to play for rather than a higher wage.
What ? He hasnt signed for us ? Im not talking about his previous move. Im talking specically this move to Bradford on a 3 year deal, which i assume is going to make him more money than a 1 or 2 year.
Also how do you know how much he is making compared to other deals ?
Another, reliable source, said Gillingham had offered a player considerably more than we had this summer, that's why it was relevant.
Yep, apparently rejected European football at Hibs for a longer contract
Ultimately at this stage of his career he has to go where he is paid most. At the end of they, my personal thpughts on him as a footballer aside and how he conducted himself i hope it works out for him.
So why didn't he sign for Wrexham or Gillingham who are offering more wages than us?
It's the second move in a row where he has picked a manager he wants to play for rather than a higher wage.
What ? He hasnt signed for us ? Im not talking about his previous move. Im talking specically this move to Bradford on a 3 year deal, which i assume is going to make him more money than a 1 or 2 year.
Also how do you know how much he is making compared to other deals ?
Another, reliable source, said Gillingham had offered a player considerably more than we had this summer, that's why it was relevant.
Its still irelevant, we are talking about JW going Bradford ? What we offer players 2/3 years aftet he has left is irrelevant to the conversation. Unless im.missing something ?
Comments
For what its worth I do agree that going through the social media route probably didn't do much to improve or resolve the situation but given it was a reaction to what Bowyer had done its hard to hold it against Williams, personally.
I wonder if Bowyer would have had a crack at Innis?!
If Bowyer was screaming in JWs face its hard to condone but from the outside we didnt see that. We saw (imo) LB criticise JW fairly (perhaps a bit embarrasing for JW) and JW respond by posting an indirect on social media which for me personally isnt a trait or behaviour that commands respect.
More the virtues of using an indirect. If JW didnt want to shout in his face back i fully understandbut perhaps there were better ways to deal with it tgan go to social media.
This is exactly what I mean about people saying things like lack of ambition or knows his level, he is extremely lucky, compared to 90% of lower league players, in that he can play where he wants, not where he needs to.
It's the second move in a row where he has picked a manager he wants to play for rather than a higher wage.
Also how do you know how much he is making compared to other deals ?
Of course i say this knowing that he has friends and/or family on this forum so he cant be criticised in anyway.