Honeymoon period for Bowyer definitely over it seems, calls for his head are rash considering what he’s had to deal with, and where we were end of September squad wise before TS came riding in on his big beautiful Danish stead, however, Bowyer is not beyond criticism or fault, those that think he is are equally rash.
Are people actually calling for his head? I don’t think I’ve seen any comments actually suggesting he should be sacked?
Agreed, but a lot are questioning his ability to do the job, and if we don't go up Sandgaard should get rid of him.
I kept looking to see if you had done so as I feel you are the man to give us a heads up of possible trouble at 'mill .
I am somewhat reassured that you have pinpointed one of the problems that most here have already mentioned ie lack of pace in the squad.
No hint of problems inside the dressing room although I'm sure all and sundry haven't been singing Twist & Shout since the international break ( spit !)
I would agree that Monday morning will undoubtedly herald a heart to heart between management & players - a time for home truths and soul searching and then to move on with a clean slate, if that's possible. Hope JW & the gaffer can sort out any differences that remain...
A full 5 days of sweat (and maybe tears ? ) before old boys Joe & Terrel womble into town so no excuses of lethargy or lack of time on the training pitch.
It would be great to be at our home in person to see what we all hope is a rejuvenated squad in full flow....but that remains to be seen.
No prizes for guessing where my Peter Pointer will be hovering come 3pm tomorrow afternoon !
Honeymoon period for Bowyer definitely over it seems, calls for his head are rash considering what he’s had to deal with, and where we were end of September squad wise before TS came riding in on his big beautiful Danish stead, however, Bowyer is not beyond criticism or fault, those that think he is are equally rash.
Are people actually calling for his head? I don’t think I’ve seen any comments actually suggesting he should be sacked?
Agreed, but a lot are questioning his ability to do the job, and if we don't go up Sandgaard should get rid of him.
Do you think that's completely unfair? Off the back of some awful performances? Slagging off fans and players. Not having a clue what his best team or formation is. Rotating way too often and then being extremely negative.
Personally I'd be more concerned if the fans weren't questioning this. To clarify, no I'm not suggesting he should be sacked, he's earnt himself time and more than that, I don't think he's become a bad manager overnight. But I am definitely concerned about the last couple of weeks, and that's not just results/performances.
Am I reading that correctly that Pratley only made three forward passes all game? And two of those were short passes in the corner of the pitch. So basically he made one real successful forward pass all game.
Am I reading that correctly that Pratley only made three forward passes all game? And two of those were short passes in the corner of the pitch. So basically he made one real successful forward pass all game.
Considering Watson is meant to be playing the base of the diamond, Pratley had the ball deeper than him.
How to we expect to make any chances for our strikers when one of our central midfielders is barely even touching the ball in the attacking half.
It's no shock really, as Sage alluded to, that we have looked our best when we have had that blistering pace of Grant, Leko of Doherty on the pitch. That way we can sit tight like Bowyer likes and then have an out ball for a quick counter attack.
However we don't have that on the pitch currently. With the players at his disposal, there's no way you're telling me they can't be coached to play a more free flowing passing game like MK Dons.
Shinnie, Morgan, Gilby, Williams all have ability in spades, but we never get a chance to really see what they can do.
Personally I don't think Bowyer will change his style of play. But I also think we will still be there or there abouts by the end of the season - it just may not be the most enjoyable watch for me.
Purposely stayed off here the last 24 hours, I knew how it would be and haven’t read anything.
One thing I do know is that we desperately lack any kind of pace. No Doughty and no Smyth and we have no one who is actually quick. It makes me think that do we play Maatsen higher up the pitch from the start, he is really the only one at the moment who is able to take a player on with a bit of speed.
Our next 3 games are huge. Teams around us are playing one another and we have 2 home games coming up in quick succession.
Listening/watching Liverpool at the moment, if anyone dares to say they can’t make an atmosphere at The Valley for X, Y, or Z, you’re lying.
We need at least 7 points from the next 3 and that will keep us top 6 heading into Christmas.
I really hope Bowyer and Gallen have identified that we need to sign someone with pace, because we are so predictable and static without it, without Doughty especially. But we have to find a way to get passed that. We have footballers, players who can play, so why have we abandoned that of late?
It’s time we stick together because it was only a month ago we won 6 on the spin and hadn’t conceded in 8 games or however long.
It’s poor at the moment and Bowyer is not immune to criticism. But anything more than that and give your head a wobble.
A full week of training and hopefully they have a meeting and work things out, find out what’s happening and what needs work. Then put it to bed, and work on it.
I don’t think we will see as poor performances as we have seen over the last 2-3 weeks now. We move on from here.
@SAGE At the beginning of October I highlighted how I felt that it was wrong for LB to have publicly singled out players for criticism and used Bonne as an example. Since then he has also now done the same to Bogle, Williams, Morgan and Maddison.
Do you now agree that LB does do this and that this can be counter productive?
I don’t think I’ve ever said he doesn’t single out players for criticism and think that the way he singled out Bonne was okay, he did praise him a lot as well.
At the moment, yes I agree it is counter-productive. Especially after taking Williams off for not going full-blooded into a challenge. To criticise him as much as he did because of that was poor. Williams offered us a lot on Saturday when he came on, to make a rash decision to take him off and make an example of him isn’t the best, especially when it heaped more pressure onto us and we inevitably conceded.
The Bogle criticism I don’t think was counter-productive. He wasn’t doing it, Aneke did, and Bogle has been better since.
The Morgan criticism in the past the same. But one thing I would probably say is that rather than giving him really good praise, he’s said the penny has dropped and has made huge strides. It could be worded a little better.
I see nothing wrong with Maddison’s criticism, he’s been poor and Bowyer probably knows he can’t put an arm around him because he needs to know he has to do better. Once he is better and fitter, I am sure Bowyer will put an arm around him.
At times yes, it’s counter-productive like on Saturday. But I do think the vast majority of the time, the criticism is fair and everyone knows he is honest, as honest as they come now. So as fans I think we wrap the players up too much, they’re men not kids. They can take criticism like they can praise. Just yes, I think right now it’s a bit too harsh when everyone is not playing well.
We played a flat 4-4-2, Watson and Pratley were equally deep.
Ah my bad, no wonder we looked so pedestrian and Gilby and JFC really struggled. They barely had an out ball.
I can’t believe we played a flat 442, was so obvious what JFC and Gilbey were going to do every time they got the ball. Not sure why Purrington didn’t play with Maatsen LM. Could have played JFC or Gilbey CM then.
LB is an inexperienced manager and that has shown in recent games by the way he's expressed his frustration. I'm sure TS has expectations of the playoffs at least with this squad and I imagine most fans are expecting the same.
The next 4 fixtures, three are at home, are all winnable and you would hope our form would pick up. If we perform badly in these 4 then concerns would grow.
Looking back at the build up to their penalty, it reminded me of soooooo many conceded goals in the final 5 minutes last season.
- Pratley skewed a header straight at him, unchallenged - Ball came to Morgan quicker than expected and he would normally take a soft touch but decided to attempt an almighty hoof. Unusual for the best passer at the club. Under order/influence to "get it out"? - Gunter decided to let the ball bounce and attempt a clearance. Never let the ball bounce right? - The rest looks a blur unless watch it in super slo-mo, which I don't fancy
So, why do we specialise in these last minute calamitous goals. Our substitutions and tactics are part of it. The last min goals to Fletcher at Sheff W and Jutkiewicz at Brum alongside several others were our undoing last season and we our management and coaching team are letting this creep back in now.
- No surprise MK Dons lost over the weekend after looking like Spain in their pomp v us.
- The references to Liverpool fans being able to make an atmosphere is an interesting choice of example. One set of fans celebrating and welcoming their players back after winning the Premier League. The other set of fans are welcoming their team back after relegation.
I love Bowyer's honesty and it's a breath of fresh air most of the time, especially in the way other people going about being a manager. I wouldn't change him for anyone.
Just sometimes I think he could be a bit more cute. A bit more clever with his answers. Sometimes a really good manager and what makes them better than the rest is that they know how to take the pressure off their players and focus on something else. He can tell them as a group, but what the very best managers do is deflect and focus the subject and attention to another matter.
With Williams for example, he could've said I have spoken to Jonny in the dressing room just now and they all understand the reasoning. And then start talking about a different matter, talk about the bobbly pitch or whatever it is, just to take the spotlight off himself or his players.
I think that type of thing comes with experience and I am sure he will pick it up in good time.
Purposely stayed off here the last 24 hours, I knew how it would be and haven’t read anything.
One thing I do know is that we desperately lack any kind of pace. No Doughty and no Smyth and we have no one who is actually quick. It makes me think that do we play Maatsen higher up the pitch from the start, he is really the only one at the moment who is able to take a player on with a bit of speed.
Our next 3 games are huge. Teams around us are playing one another and we have 2 home games coming up in quick succession.
Listening/watching Liverpool at the moment, if anyone dares to say they can’t make an atmosphere at The Valley for X, Y, or Z, you’re lying.
We need at least 7 points from the next 3 and that will keep us top 6 heading into Christmas.
I really hope Bowyer and Gallen have identified that we need to sign someone with pace, because we are so predictable and static without it, without Doughty especially. But we have to find a way to get passed that. We have footballers, players who can play, so why have we abandoned that of late?
It’s time we stick together because it was only a month ago we won 6 on the spin and hadn’t conceded in 8 games or however long.
It’s poor at the moment and Bowyer is not immune to criticism. But anything more than that and give your head a wobble.
A full week of training and hopefully they have a meeting and work things out, find out what’s happening and what needs work. Then put it to bed, and work on it.
I don’t think we will see as poor performances as we have seen over the last 2-3 weeks now. We move on from here.
@SAGE At the beginning of October I highlighted how I felt that it was wrong for LB to have publicly singled out players for criticism and used Bonne as an example. Since then he has also now done the same to Bogle, Williams, Morgan and Maddison.
Do you now agree that LB does do this and that this can be counter productive?
I don’t think I’ve ever said he doesn’t single out players for criticism and think that the way he singled out Bonne was okay, he did praise him a lot as well.
At the moment, yes I agree it is counter-productive. Especially after taking Williams off for not going full-blooded into a challenge. To criticise him as much as he did because of that was poor. Williams offered us a lot on Saturday when he came on, to make a rash decision to take him off and make an example of him isn’t the best, especially when it heaped more pressure onto us and we inevitably conceded.
The Bogle criticism I don’t think was counter-productive. He wasn’t doing it, Aneke did, and Bogle has been better since.
The Morgan criticism in the past the same. But one thing I would probably say is that rather than giving him really good praise, he’s said the penny has dropped and has made huge strides. It could be worded a little better.
I see nothing wrong with Maddison’s criticism, he’s been poor and Bowyer probably knows he can’t put an arm around him because he needs to know he has to do better. Once he is better and fitter, I am sure Bowyer will put an arm around him.
At times yes, it’s counter-productive like on Saturday. But I do think the vast majority of the time, the criticism is fair and everyone knows he is honest, as honest as they come now. So as fans I think we wrap the players up too much, they’re men not kids. They can take criticism like they can praise. Just yes, I think right now it’s a bit too harsh when everyone is not playing well.
You're right - no player is beyond criticism but there are, in my opinion, better ways to deliver that message. Behind closed doors and certainly not immediately after the game when feelings are raw.
How many times did Ferguson ever after a game in front of the cameras publicly slate one of his players? He didn't but we certainly know that he let individuals know in no uncertain terms what is expected of them in the dressing room. How many times have you ever heard a Klopp or Guardiola do it?
These are Managers who have players who would run through brick walls for them. In publicly defending the players they take the pressure off them. What LB is doing is deflecting any potential criticism of him - the way the team is set up, the lack of invention in the side, the habitual negative substitutions in an attempt to hold onto a one goal lead. When that goes wrong he blasts the player he deems responsible for losing us points.
I might be wrong but I believe that Gunter has been responsible for at least three of the seven goals that we have conceded in the last five games. And yet I've not heard LB criticise him at all. Why is that? Is it because he doesn't want to have to drop him and airing that opinion would lead to fans questioning why he hasn't left him out? Whereas the likes of Morgan and Williams are deemed dispensable?
One final point - if a player was interviewed and said that LB made a mistake because he got the tactics totally wrong would you accept that this is OK because the player was just being "honest"? Or would you agree that this would undermine LB and the unity of the squad?
- No surprise MK Dons lost over the weekend after looking like Spain in their pomp v us.
- The references to Liverpool fans being able to make an atmosphere is an interesting choice of example. One set of fans celebrating and welcoming their players back after winning the Premier League. The other set of fans are welcoming their team back after relegation.
I don't think the circumstances of last season have anything to do with it.
This is a new team, in a new era, and the main thing is, it's the first time fans are properly back in 9 months.
It's about being positive, creating noise, and creating some kind of atmosphere instead of either silence or groans. Because you heard to boo's and the groans, so they can make noise, but you heard very little else.
The worst thing any manager can do is start criticising the fans particularly after a bad performance - does LB want to be like Pardew? If he has any sense he won't do it again.
Purposely stayed off here the last 24 hours, I knew how it would be and haven’t read anything.
One thing I do know is that we desperately lack any kind of pace. No Doughty and no Smyth and we have no one who is actually quick. It makes me think that do we play Maatsen higher up the pitch from the start, he is really the only one at the moment who is able to take a player on with a bit of speed.
Our next 3 games are huge. Teams around us are playing one another and we have 2 home games coming up in quick succession.
Listening/watching Liverpool at the moment, if anyone dares to say they can’t make an atmosphere at The Valley for X, Y, or Z, you’re lying.
We need at least 7 points from the next 3 and that will keep us top 6 heading into Christmas.
I really hope Bowyer and Gallen have identified that we need to sign someone with pace, because we are so predictable and static without it, without Doughty especially. But we have to find a way to get passed that. We have footballers, players who can play, so why have we abandoned that of late?
It’s time we stick together because it was only a month ago we won 6 on the spin and hadn’t conceded in 8 games or however long.
It’s poor at the moment and Bowyer is not immune to criticism. But anything more than that and give your head a wobble.
A full week of training and hopefully they have a meeting and work things out, find out what’s happening and what needs work. Then put it to bed, and work on it.
I don’t think we will see as poor performances as we have seen over the last 2-3 weeks now. We move on from here.
@SAGE At the beginning of October I highlighted how I felt that it was wrong for LB to have publicly singled out players for criticism and used Bonne as an example. Since then he has also now done the same to Bogle, Williams, Morgan and Maddison.
Do you now agree that LB does do this and that this can be counter productive?
I don’t think I’ve ever said he doesn’t single out players for criticism and think that the way he singled out Bonne was okay, he did praise him a lot as well.
At the moment, yes I agree it is counter-productive. Especially after taking Williams off for not going full-blooded into a challenge. To criticise him as much as he did because of that was poor. Williams offered us a lot on Saturday when he came on, to make a rash decision to take him off and make an example of him isn’t the best, especially when it heaped more pressure onto us and we inevitably conceded.
The Bogle criticism I don’t think was counter-productive. He wasn’t doing it, Aneke did, and Bogle has been better since.
The Morgan criticism in the past the same. But one thing I would probably say is that rather than giving him really good praise, he’s said the penny has dropped and has made huge strides. It could be worded a little better.
I see nothing wrong with Maddison’s criticism, he’s been poor and Bowyer probably knows he can’t put an arm around him because he needs to know he has to do better. Once he is better and fitter, I am sure Bowyer will put an arm around him.
At times yes, it’s counter-productive like on Saturday. But I do think the vast majority of the time, the criticism is fair and everyone knows he is honest, as honest as they come now. So as fans I think we wrap the players up too much, they’re men not kids. They can take criticism like they can praise. Just yes, I think right now it’s a bit too harsh when everyone is not playing well.
You're right - no player is beyond criticism but there are, in my opinion, better ways to deliver that message. Behind closed doors and certainly not immediately after the game when feelings are raw.
How many times did Ferguson ever after a game in front of the cameras publicly slate one of his players? He didn't but we certainly know that he let individuals know in no uncertain terms what is expected of them in the dressing room. How many times have you ever heard a Klopp or Guardiola do it?
These are Managers who have players who would run through brick walls for them. In publicly defending the players they take the pressure off them. What LB is doing is deflecting any potential criticism of him - the way the team is set up, the lack of invention in the side, the habitual negative substitutions in an attempt to hold onto a one goal lead. When that goes wrong he blasts the player he deems responsible for losing us points.
I might be wrong but I believe that Gunter has been responsible for at least three of the seven goals that we have conceded in the last five games. And yet I've not heard LB criticise him at all. Why is that? Is it because he doesn't want to have to drop him and airing that opinion would lead to fans questioning why he hasn't left him out? Whereas the likes of Morgan and Williams are deemed dispensable?
One final point - if a player was interviewed and said that LB made a mistake because he got the tactics totally wrong would you accept that this is OK because the player was just being "honest"? Or would you agree that this would undermine LB and the unity of the squad?
That all comes with experience and it all depends on the style of the manager too. We shouldn't be surprised and think too much into it when we hear Bowyer say things top managers don't. He is honest and all the players know that and respect that. It's something they all say when asked about him and they know where they stand. They also know he is only ever saying things to improve them and get a reaction. Whether he should say it when feelings and emotions are raw, yes that's another matter but I see no problem in his honesty.
There are better ways of doing it, psychologically by deflecting and taking pressure off the players. And you're right, he doesn't really ever say anything about a defender, it usually is the midfielders and I think that's probably because he was a midfielder himself and therefore, unconsciously will focus on that area more.
You also wouldn't ever hear a player come out and say the manager got it wrong and the tactics were all wrong. Once the players cross that line, there is little a manager can do. The players have played the game, know the game, and are smart enough to carry out the basics but much of the time of late, they're not doing that very much.
The manager has ever right to praise and criticise their players, but you have to remember that for a player to do that, they have far more to lose. It's about authority in that respect. Just because Bowyer can do it, the point the other way just doesn't stack up.
I do agree he is harsher on the forward thinking and attacking players. Williams is dragged off for pulling out of a challenge, but Gunter has been directly involved in however many mistakes, especially Burton for example. In the same way, why did he not take off Gunter in that situation. But the reason I think is that it's far easier to take off a midfielder or attacker than a defender. Bowyer has said himself you don't take off a defender unless they're injured or you have to completely change approach and go more attacking.
This is something Bowyer will learn though. I think he will always be direct and say how he feels, but I do think he will learn to tone it down a little and not put too much pressure onto his players. Because in a way, as much as everything he says gets a reaction and he does it for the right reasons, it can also make some players slightly wary of making a mistake and they don't try the things you would want them to do.
Like I have said, he is not immune to criticism and he has not got it all right over the last 2-3 weeks, but anything more than that and you need to give your head a wobble. It's a sticky patch right now and I am sure 3 points on Saturday can put us on our way to another little good run of form.
After having a day to think about it, I am still pissed off with Bowyer's attacks on his own players, however he is still on target and a win on Saturday will have us back in a more confident head space.
We need to stop the Pratley/Watson midfield though. That needs to be either/or.
I'd like us to start being a bit more sensible with rotations and make it like for like when all players are fit (Our squad of 24 is something like this I think).
My main concern at the moment is that we have a whole week's worth of training before the next game.
Results apart, it's been quite a negative week. Jibes at both supporters and players. All at a time the new Owner wants us to focus on footie and leave the circus acts to be a thing of the past.
Bow's has said on numerous times that he could have walked. That may have been the case, but those ships have sailed. The footballing world will be looking at what he can do now and mid table with Charlton will not help anybody's future.
Purposely stayed off here the last 24 hours, I knew how it would be and haven’t read anything.
One thing I do know is that we desperately lack any kind of pace. No Doughty and no Smyth and we have no one who is actually quick. It makes me think that do we play Maatsen higher up the pitch from the start, he is really the only one at the moment who is able to take a player on with a bit of speed.
Our next 3 games are huge. Teams around us are playing one another and we have 2 home games coming up in quick succession.
Listening/watching Liverpool at the moment, if anyone dares to say they can’t make an atmosphere at The Valley for X, Y, or Z, you’re lying.
We need at least 7 points from the next 3 and that will keep us top 6 heading into Christmas.
I really hope Bowyer and Gallen have identified that we need to sign someone with pace, because we are so predictable and static without it, without Doughty especially. But we have to find a way to get passed that. We have footballers, players who can play, so why have we abandoned that of late?
It’s time we stick together because it was only a month ago we won 6 on the spin and hadn’t conceded in 8 games or however long.
It’s poor at the moment and Bowyer is not immune to criticism. But anything more than that and give your head a wobble.
A full week of training and hopefully they have a meeting and work things out, find out what’s happening and what needs work. Then put it to bed, and work on it.
I don’t think we will see as poor performances as we have seen over the last 2-3 weeks now. We move on from here.
@SAGE At the beginning of October I highlighted how I felt that it was wrong for LB to have publicly singled out players for criticism and used Bonne as an example. Since then he has also now done the same to Bogle, Williams, Morgan and Maddison.
Do you now agree that LB does do this and that this can be counter productive?
I don’t think I’ve ever said he doesn’t single out players for criticism and think that the way he singled out Bonne was okay, he did praise him a lot as well.
At the moment, yes I agree it is counter-productive. Especially after taking Williams off for not going full-blooded into a challenge. To criticise him as much as he did because of that was poor. Williams offered us a lot on Saturday when he came on, to make a rash decision to take him off and make an example of him isn’t the best, especially when it heaped more pressure onto us and we inevitably conceded.
The Bogle criticism I don’t think was counter-productive. He wasn’t doing it, Aneke did, and Bogle has been better since.
The Morgan criticism in the past the same. But one thing I would probably say is that rather than giving him really good praise, he’s said the penny has dropped and has made huge strides. It could be worded a little better.
I see nothing wrong with Maddison’s criticism, he’s been poor and Bowyer probably knows he can’t put an arm around him because he needs to know he has to do better. Once he is better and fitter, I am sure Bowyer will put an arm around him.
At times yes, it’s counter-productive like on Saturday. But I do think the vast majority of the time, the criticism is fair and everyone knows he is honest, as honest as they come now. So as fans I think we wrap the players up too much, they’re men not kids. They can take criticism like they can praise. Just yes, I think right now it’s a bit too harsh when everyone is not playing well.
You're right - no player is beyond criticism but there are, in my opinion, better ways to deliver that message. Behind closed doors and certainly not immediately after the game when feelings are raw.
How many times did Ferguson ever after a game in front of the cameras publicly slate one of his players? He didn't but we certainly know that he let individuals know in no uncertain terms what is expected of them in the dressing room. How many times have you ever heard a Klopp or Guardiola do it?
These are Managers who have players who would run through brick walls for them. In publicly defending the players they take the pressure off them. What LB is doing is deflecting any potential criticism of him - the way the team is set up, the lack of invention in the side, the habitual negative substitutions in an attempt to hold onto a one goal lead. When that goes wrong he blasts the player he deems responsible for losing us points.
I might be wrong but I believe that Gunter has been responsible for at least three of the seven goals that we have conceded in the last five games. And yet I've not heard LB criticise him at all. Why is that? Is it because he doesn't want to have to drop him and airing that opinion would lead to fans questioning why he hasn't left him out? Whereas the likes of Morgan and Williams are deemed dispensable?
One final point - if a player was interviewed and said that LB made a mistake because he got the tactics totally wrong would you accept that this is OK because the player was just being "honest"? Or would you agree that this would undermine LB and the unity of the squad?
Fergie would have created a distraction, knowing that he would be slated in the media, but distracting everyone from a poor performance
"It was a disgrace that we played so much added time, the referee was desperate to give them something. I'm furious"
The passing stats from our keeper and CBs are terrible
Teams have worked out that if they press us high, we can't build from the back and have to hoof it long, either directly from the keeper or from one of those pointless passages of play where Amos rolls in short to a CB and after 30 seconds of unconvincing passing around the back either the CB or Amos end up with the ball back again to clear long.
There's no outlet, whether from the full backs or midfield
We win game in hand we’re 3rd.with this team I can’t complain with that. Bowyer and gallen had to rush to get some kind of squad together.they never managed to get the needed quality up front for me.hopefully will in January. But to be fair to the strikers they haven’t had much service.
Think we all agree that if we play Watson and pratley together we lose a attaching threat.we miss the player with energy and drives at teams like Gallagher did. To me the nearest we got to that is Williams or and I know a lot of people wont agree and say his a headless chicken but Lapslie who seems to be doing great at Mansfield.how our midfield needs a bit of his energy.
Thought Gilbey would be a all rounder in central midfield but his been put on the left a looks absolutely lost.
Bowyer liked to say how he liked his team to be balanced but we just not now. We’re playing with 4 central midfielders with none willing to run at there opponents.
We have a whole week of training for Saturdays home game. Let's hope no one gets injured for not pulling out of a full blooded challenge. Bowyer should say he got the last substitution against Shrewsbury completely wrong.
So things have not gone our way for a few games so things are falling apart?
Well actually if Bowyer can't solve the problem soon it just might be.
Far from Bowyers biggest fan, tacticts can be boring and negative but heard hardly any moaning when we went on the 8 match unbeaten run.
Totally agree. But it's not me and you that call the shots. With the money he is investing in the club I think Thomas Sandgaard will be expecting nothing less than promotion this season.
N. Can someone remind me how much of this money Bowyer has seen.?
Purposely stayed off here the last 24 hours, I knew how it would be and haven’t read anything.
One thing I do know is that we desperately lack any kind of pace. No Doughty and no Smyth and we have no one who is actually quick. It makes me think that do we play Maatsen higher up the pitch from the start, he is really the only one at the moment who is able to take a player on with a bit of speed.
Our next 3 games are huge. Teams around us are playing one another and we have 2 home games coming up in quick succession.
Listening/watching Liverpool at the moment, if anyone dares to say they can’t make an atmosphere at The Valley for X, Y, or Z, you’re lying.
We need at least 7 points from the next 3 and that will keep us top 6 heading into Christmas.
I really hope Bowyer and Gallen have identified that we need to sign someone with pace, because we are so predictable and static without it, without Doughty especially. But we have to find a way to get passed that. We have footballers, players who can play, so why have we abandoned that of late?
It’s time we stick together because it was only a month ago we won 6 on the spin and hadn’t conceded in 8 games or however long.
It’s poor at the moment and Bowyer is not immune to criticism. But anything more than that and give your head a wobble.
A full week of training and hopefully they have a meeting and work things out, find out what’s happening and what needs work. Then put it to bed, and work on it.
I don’t think we will see as poor performances as we have seen over the last 2-3 weeks now. We move on from here.
@SAGE At the beginning of October I highlighted how I felt that it was wrong for LB to have publicly singled out players for criticism and used Bonne as an example. Since then he has also now done the same to Bogle, Williams, Morgan and Maddison.
Do you now agree that LB does do this and that this can be counter productive?
At times yes, it’s counter-productive like on Saturday. But I do think the vast majority of the time, the criticism is fair and everyone knows he is honest, as honest as they come now.
So as fans I think we wrap the players up too much, they’re men not kids. They can take criticism like they can praise. Just yes, I think right now it’s a bit too harsh when everyone is not playing well.
I think you've hit the nail on the head, @Sage .......... Bowyer sees himself as being straight and honest. That's as he sees it. And he wants his players to be the same.
But it should be for the training ground. Me, I wince when he does it publicly. No way should he be doing his dirty washing in public.
Comments
I kept looking to see if you had done so as I feel you are the man to give us a heads up of possible trouble at 'mill .
I am somewhat reassured that you have pinpointed one of the problems that most here have already mentioned ie lack of pace in the squad.
No hint of problems inside the dressing room although I'm sure all and sundry haven't been singing Twist & Shout since the international break ( spit !)
I would agree that Monday morning will undoubtedly herald a heart to heart between management & players - a time for home truths and soul searching and then to move on with a clean slate, if that's possible. Hope JW & the gaffer can sort out any differences that remain...
A full 5 days of sweat (and maybe tears ? ) before old boys Joe & Terrel womble into town so no excuses of lethargy or lack of time on the training pitch.
It would be great to be at our home in person to see what we all hope is a rejuvenated squad in full flow....but that remains to be seen.
No prizes for guessing where my Peter Pointer will be hovering come 3pm tomorrow afternoon !
Personally I'd be more concerned if the fans weren't questioning this. To clarify, no I'm not suggesting he should be sacked, he's earnt himself time and more than that, I don't think he's become a bad manager overnight. But I am definitely concerned about the last couple of weeks, and that's not just results/performances.
How to we expect to make any chances for our strikers when one of our central midfielders is barely even touching the ball in the attacking half.
It's no shock really, as Sage alluded to, that we have looked our best when we have had that blistering pace of Grant, Leko of Doherty on the pitch. That way we can sit tight like Bowyer likes and then have an out ball for a quick counter attack.
However we don't have that on the pitch currently. With the players at his disposal, there's no way you're telling me they can't be coached to play a more free flowing passing game like MK Dons.
Shinnie, Morgan, Gilby, Williams all have ability in spades, but we never get a chance to really see what they can do.
Personally I don't think Bowyer will change his style of play. But I also think we will still be there or there abouts by the end of the season - it just may not be the most enjoyable watch for me.
At the moment, yes I agree it is counter-productive. Especially after taking Williams off for not going full-blooded into a challenge. To criticise him as much as he did because of that was poor. Williams offered us a lot on Saturday when he came on, to make a rash decision to take him off and make an example of him isn’t the best, especially when it heaped more pressure onto us and we inevitably conceded.
The Bogle criticism I don’t think was counter-productive. He wasn’t doing it, Aneke did, and Bogle has been better since.
The Morgan criticism in the past the same. But one thing I would probably say is that rather than giving him really good praise, he’s said the penny has dropped and has made huge strides. It could be worded a little better.
I see nothing wrong with Maddison’s criticism, he’s been poor and Bowyer probably knows he can’t put an arm around him because he needs to know he has to do better. Once he is better and fitter, I am sure Bowyer will put an arm around him.
At times yes, it’s counter-productive like on Saturday. But I do think the vast majority of the time, the criticism is fair and everyone knows he is honest, as honest as they come now. So as fans I think we wrap the players up too much, they’re men not kids. They can take criticism like they can praise. Just yes, I think right now it’s a bit too harsh when everyone is not playing well.
The next 4 fixtures, three are at home, are all winnable and you would hope our form would pick up. If we perform badly in these 4 then concerns would grow.
- Pratley skewed a header straight at him, unchallenged
- Ball came to Morgan quicker than expected and he would normally take a soft touch but decided to attempt an almighty hoof. Unusual for the best passer at the club. Under order/influence to "get it out"?
- Gunter decided to let the ball bounce and attempt a clearance. Never let the ball bounce right?
- The rest looks a blur unless watch it in super slo-mo, which I don't fancy
So, why do we specialise in these last minute calamitous goals. Our substitutions and tactics are part of it. The last min goals to Fletcher at Sheff W and Jutkiewicz at Brum alongside several others were our undoing last season and we our management and coaching team are letting this creep back in now.
- No surprise MK Dons lost over the weekend after looking like Spain in their pomp v us.
- The references to Liverpool fans being able to make an atmosphere is an interesting choice of example. One set of fans celebrating and welcoming their players back after winning the Premier League. The other set of fans are welcoming their team back after relegation.
Just sometimes I think he could be a bit more cute. A bit more clever with his answers. Sometimes a really good manager and what makes them better than the rest is that they know how to take the pressure off their players and focus on something else. He can tell them as a group, but what the very best managers do is deflect and focus the subject and attention to another matter.
With Williams for example, he could've said I have spoken to Jonny in the dressing room just now and they all understand the reasoning. And then start talking about a different matter, talk about the bobbly pitch or whatever it is, just to take the spotlight off himself or his players.
I think that type of thing comes with experience and I am sure he will pick it up in good time.
How many times did Ferguson ever after a game in front of the cameras publicly slate one of his players? He didn't but we certainly know that he let individuals know in no uncertain terms what is expected of them in the dressing room. How many times have you ever heard a Klopp or Guardiola do it?
These are Managers who have players who would run through brick walls for them. In publicly defending the players they take the pressure off them. What LB is doing is deflecting any potential criticism of him - the way the team is set up, the lack of invention in the side, the habitual negative substitutions in an attempt to hold onto a one goal lead. When that goes wrong he blasts the player he deems responsible for losing us points.
I might be wrong but I believe that Gunter has been responsible for at least three of the seven goals that we have conceded in the last five games. And yet I've not heard LB criticise him at all. Why is that? Is it because he doesn't want to have to drop him and airing that opinion would lead to fans questioning why he hasn't left him out? Whereas the likes of Morgan and Williams are deemed dispensable?
One final point - if a player was interviewed and said that LB made a mistake because he got the tactics totally wrong would you accept that this is OK because the player was just being "honest"? Or would you agree that this would undermine LB and the unity of the squad?
This is a new team, in a new era, and the main thing is, it's the first time fans are properly back in 9 months.
It's about being positive, creating noise, and creating some kind of atmosphere instead of either silence or groans. Because you heard to boo's and the groans, so they can make noise, but you heard very little else.
There are better ways of doing it, psychologically by deflecting and taking pressure off the players. And you're right, he doesn't really ever say anything about a defender, it usually is the midfielders and I think that's probably because he was a midfielder himself and therefore, unconsciously will focus on that area more.
You also wouldn't ever hear a player come out and say the manager got it wrong and the tactics were all wrong. Once the players cross that line, there is little a manager can do. The players have played the game, know the game, and are smart enough to carry out the basics but much of the time of late, they're not doing that very much.
The manager has ever right to praise and criticise their players, but you have to remember that for a player to do that, they have far more to lose. It's about authority in that respect. Just because Bowyer can do it, the point the other way just doesn't stack up.
I do agree he is harsher on the forward thinking and attacking players. Williams is dragged off for pulling out of a challenge, but Gunter has been directly involved in however many mistakes, especially Burton for example. In the same way, why did he not take off Gunter in that situation. But the reason I think is that it's far easier to take off a midfielder or attacker than a defender. Bowyer has said himself you don't take off a defender unless they're injured or you have to completely change approach and go more attacking.
This is something Bowyer will learn though. I think he will always be direct and say how he feels, but I do think he will learn to tone it down a little and not put too much pressure onto his players. Because in a way, as much as everything he says gets a reaction and he does it for the right reasons, it can also make some players slightly wary of making a mistake and they don't try the things you would want them to do.
Like I have said, he is not immune to criticism and he has not got it all right over the last 2-3 weeks, but anything more than that and you need to give your head a wobble. It's a sticky patch right now and I am sure 3 points on Saturday can put us on our way to another little good run of form.
We need to stop the Pratley/Watson midfield though. That needs to be either/or.
I'd like us to start being a bit more sensible with rotations and make it like for like when all players are fit (Our squad of 24 is something like this I think).
1st/2nd/3rd choice etc
GK - Amos/AMB
RB - Gunter/Matthews/Oshilaja
RCB - Inniss/Famewo/Oshilaja/Gunter
LCB - Pearce/Famewo/Pratley
LB - Maatsen/Purrington/Famewo/F.Caskey
RM - Maddison/Morgan/Williams
CM1 - Watson/Pratley
CM2 - Shinnie/Morgan/Levitt
LM - Doughty/Gilbey/Morgan/Williams/Maatsen
RF - Aneke/Bogle/Washington/Smyth
LF - Washington/Smyth/Aneke/Bogle
In the next game I'd like us to play the diamond we're used to seeing.
Matthews - Famewo - Pearce - Maatsen
Pratley
Morgan - Shinnie
Williams
Aneke - Washington
This may change depending on player availability.
Results apart, it's been quite a negative week. Jibes at both supporters and players. All at a time the new Owner wants us to focus on footie and leave the circus acts to be a thing of the past.
Bow's has said on numerous times that he could have walked. That may have been the case, but those ships have sailed. The footballing world will be looking at what he can do now and mid table with Charlton will not help anybody's future.
"It was a disgrace that we played so much added time, the referee was desperate to give them something. I'm furious"
Exit, slammed door
Teams have worked out that if they press us high, we can't build from the back and have to hoof it long, either directly from the keeper or from one of those pointless passages of play where Amos rolls in short to a CB and after 30 seconds of unconvincing passing around the back either the CB or Amos end up with the ball back again to clear long.
There's no outlet, whether from the full backs or midfield
Aside from that, we've relied on brave youth to carry the ball outside of the mould illustrated by the stats. Conor G, Alfie, Maatsan.
We will learn a lot from this season.
Let's hope no one gets injured for not pulling out of a full blooded challenge.
Bowyer should say he got the last substitution against Shrewsbury completely wrong.
Can someone remind me how much of this money Bowyer has seen.?
That's as he sees it. And he wants his players to be the same.
But it should be for the training ground. Me, I wince when he does it publicly.
No way should he be doing his dirty washing in public.