Gunter was our weakest link all game today, he ducked at least 3 headers, passing was crap, and definitely shirked ar least 2 challenges, yet Williams was the fall guy. I dont want bowyer out but I really think his dealing and post match comments about jonny were pretty shocking from a man management perspective. If I was Jonny, I'd he thinking fuck him, he aint got my back. Slap me down in private, not in public
To be honest, what I'm concerned about with Lee is that his 'success' and popularity at Charlton has gone to his head a bit. I hope not but it's starting to feel that way to me. Blaming others and never yourself is a good sign of that. It's the 'my way or highway' approach and that way never works.
Lee, you have a good coaching team backing you up. Do you ask for and take their advice? Do you lean on them for support? Or, are you trying to do it all yourself? What about Johnnie Jackson? Not seen much of him for ages. Haven't heard about him for ages. Lee, it isn't all about you. This is about Charlton Athletic. I hope you're not losing that vision. No one is bigger than the club. I haven't heard you giving credit to your other coaching staff for a while. In my opinion, these are all really valid observations. Was it winning the 6 games on the bounce that was the tipping point? It seems since then that things have changed with you. Or, is that my imagination? Something has changed though. You've always been stubborn but you've also always been able to see the errors of your ways and been able to adjust accordingly. That's why we've rarely gone one or two games on the bounce with bad performances. You've always been able to correct that. But things seem to be different now Lee.
I'll say it again. I hope, Lee, you make me look a prat by winning the next 6 games. Wouldn't I just love that. And, not just for our team but for you. What you have done for Charlton the past few years has been fantastic but this is a different era now. And, TS will see through quite quickly any management decisions that are affecting the basic nucleus of the club. You can't bullshit that Lee. That is a reality. So, I really hope you can get a grip. Stop blaming everything/everybody but yourself. You have a good owner now. You have good support now. No more cowboy owners around to blame. Get back to the basics. Become a team player again. The thing is Lee, you can do all of this because that's what you were like. But, I feel it is changing/has changed. Don't start getting arrogant Lee (or is that a facade) and I hope that's not what I'm seeing. The last thing you want to do is not have the support of the fans or the players.
And, I am saying this because I want you to be a success at our club. You came through our academy and have Charlton running through your veins. That promotion season was off the charts. Lee, you walked on water. But, that's not enough. You're only as good as what is going on now and the new owner will quickly see through any bullshit.
Maybe I'm overreacting but something is not right. And I'm writing this not because I want Lee Bowyer out but because I want him to be part of our success at Charlton Athletic.
Most of the comments on the match thread after the team was announced were spot on. Boring, predictable, ponderous football with no pace and minimal creativity. Of course we had injuries and illness to contend with but we were set up not to lose against the team 23rd in the table. That is so negative.
We knew that substitutions would be made on 60 minutes, though the one reactionary substitution of Williams was absolutely wrong. Good managers, whatever business you are in, do not make hasty decisions that can disalienate staff and upset morale, and you don't call out your staff in public. Football managers are no different and this is a side to his management style that really needs to be worked upon or he will lose the dressing room, if he hasn't already.
If we know exactly how Charlton will be playing, so will opposition managers and this enables teams lower than us to play off our weaknesses, such as the unnecessary pasing at the back and the predictability of the midfield.
Like many, I agree that playing Pratley and Watson invites negativity. Gilbey hasn't looked good since his injury and JFC returns to the side after injury when others have been eased in. I'd have preferred to see Morgan and Williams starting rather than Pratley and Gilbey yesterday, to at least show some attacking intent. Williams as an impact sub hasn't worked for some time; I really believe he plays better when he starts.
Disappointing game in many ways. Glad I didn't pay to watch it.
When we were winning games we scored from every shot. It was lucky. But people don't want to hear negativity when we are winning. Chickens coming home to roost now. Our style is shit. Bowyer's style is shit. We've played great football for 1 half in the past 2 seasons - first 45 against forest.
That being said, for him sticking by the club in our worst moment, I'd never sack him. Never. He embodies the club. Just gotta hope he gets it right eventually.
I think we expected to push on style wise when we were winning. The strength of the defence ensured we didn't have to be amazing. We played with two centre backs for the first time yesterday in a long time and it certainly improved us, but defensively we are not at the level we were before the injuries.
Gunter looked good when he started his career with us at right back. He is probably as bad a makeshift centre half as you can get and he must have lost a lot of confidence playing there as he took that into yesterday's game. I find it incredible he got 6s, even 5s in the player marks. He was an accident waiting to happen throughout. I personally attribute the loss of about 5 points since Gillingham to him. But on Wednesday, the ease a MK forward bypassed Matthews just by cutting to the right was disturbing too. These are two international full backs and should be doing better.
Bowyer seems to have accepted we can't play front foot football and needs his defence to be sorted, so we can carry on stopping teams and grabbing wins with the little bit of quality we have. I have no issue with playing Pratley and Watson together when we are playing a decent team away, but it is a negative tactic. If it wins you games, you can't complain. But it does mean we are not going to dominate any side.
What I think Bowyer is poor at, is adapting the tactics to what he has. He has a system/s and the players have to accommodate it. That sometimes means fitting square pegs in round holes and that doesn't usually improve you. Because he knows we are fitting square pegs in round holes, he has probably lost confidence and that is why he is going so negative when we have something to hold on to. Some teams can close games effectively, but we are not one of them. He instilled a panic into the side that he didn't need too with the subbing of Williams. Who I thought, pulling out of a tackle or not, was doing the job we needed.
Contrary to the point a poster made about being annoyed that he draws so many fouls. That is probably the best way of closing out a game there is. Look at the best sides. When they have a slender lead, they love being fouled. A good manager chasing a game with little time to go instructs his team to let the game flow and not give away fouls.
For me there was a major double blow yesterday. We started with a very slow line up - I've seen Bowyee do that before and come away with three points, so I wasn't too fussed. Give the man his due. But the performance was dire. We have injuries sure, but there seems to be a fear of going forward, and an inability to do the basics here. Then we scored, and I thought three points and a bit nearer the January window - that'll do. But that's when Bowyer shot himself in both feet. He took off Williams we sat way back, and Shrewsbury deservefly equalised. It felt like a loss. But to cap it off, the Williams substitution gets a full and frank airing in public. Having the boss pull your trousers down in front of everyone is a terrible bit of leadership, and as a former player, Bows should know that. I think our winning run has led us to see the squad as better than it is - goals being a problem was suggested in September and confirmed ever since. But we need to be more positive. I used to love Bowyers ability to make a team better than the sum of it's parts. That hasn't happened this year.
For me, Bowyer is still in credit. But he needs to turn this around, accept he has also made mistakes, and unite the players. As Elfs said, there is no divine right to win. We need to earn it. And Bows probably owes the squad an apology. A bit of team building would go a long way this week.
TBF Bows didn’t actually mention Williams by name did he? And that right hand side did seem to need shoring up at the end...There was also that almighty scramble just before the penalty where Amos mishandled it onto the bar and Morgan’s airshot clearance before Amos somehow saved the day. It felt like the goal was coming before it did.
Honeymoon period for Bowyer definitely over it seems, calls for his head are rash considering what he’s had to deal with, and where we were end of September squad wise before TS came riding in on his big beautiful Danish stead, however, Bowyer is not beyond criticism or fault, those that think he is are equally rash.
Waited till this morning to post so I could reflect. Shrewsbury were crap, but I can't argue that a draw isn't a fair result after we invited pressure for the last 15. As @MuttleyCAFC says above, Gunter's mistakes keep costing us. Yet he's probably able to stand up for himself in a way that Jonny Williams isn't. Directly responsible for one of the Burton goals and 2 penalties in the last 4 games. Not called out in public. When he made the sub I said to my daughter that we'll concede now, as we've all seen what happens when we go too defensive. And after all we were holding on to a 1 goal lead at Shrewsbury, likely relegation candidates. What could go wrong? This is not good management - we all know it: if it was happening to me I'd be turning around to my boss and telling them that bullying doesn't work and in LB's case, I'd be telling him that I expect better from him. I'm not going to lose perspective - Bowyer's got miles of credit left - but I'm expecting a narrow win for Wimbledon next week and a gradual drift down to mid table until January unless something changes. Players were prepared to run through brick walls for him before, so why are they not paying attention now?
I was saying on the match thread I didn't understand why Morgan, who's been in excellent form, hasn't been starting particularly when he was taken off in our surrender mid-week. He wasn't great yesterday and played his part in the error that led to their penalty. So, what do I know? Not a lot but I'm paying to watch this crap and I'm entitled to an opinion even if it's wrong. Thought the makeshift CB pairing worked. Watson needs a rest. Or Pratley. Amos kept us in it, again (I can forgive his mistakes, he's massively in credit on that score). Maatsen a bit sloppy but one of the few with any energy. The move that led to our goal was good work from Bogle and Williams. Gilbey showed flashes of being good, but mostly wasn't. Aneke fed on scraps, surrounded by 2-3 Salopian giants every time we hoofed it long - who could have predicted that? Washington largely anonymous. JFC didn't really get going.
I really do think we have to stop having a go at Lee bowyer.I think he has done brilliantly up until now. We definitely lack a decent striker and this is why we are suffering currently. If chuks cannot play a full 90 minutes then we will always struggle. He is doing the best with what he has got. And yes I do agree with him if people are pulling out of tackles then it has to be said. There in fact is very little tackling going on from our team currently for whatever reason compared to the beginning of the season where we were just grabbing the ball off the opposition.There may be a reason for this (injuries et cetera) but Bowyer is the kind of manager who would want his players to get in the faces of the opposition and if one starts to pull out of tackles then others will follow and so it has to be nipped in the bud. Johnny Williams is a great player but even he can’t argue against that. Bogle is the type of player who needs massive reassurance which leaves Charlton vulnerable to his confidence swings. If Chuks does not have a very good game (which he probably didn’t yesterday on reflection) then Charlton are open to being weaker by a long way. If the midfield were slightly more attacking minded (e.g. Pratley who in fact is attacking minded)then goals will come from here (and nearly did from Pratley). The big thing is not to panic and let Lee Bowyer get on with his job and encourage the team (please do not boo them)..
Does anyone know whether Vennings is injured? His showing against Plymouth showed so much promise. I’ve seen Henry has been on the bench for last two matches but not Vennings.
Does anyone know whether Vennings is injured? His showing against Plymouth showed so much promise. I’ve seen Henry has been on the bench for last two matches but not Vennings.
Can only presume so as he didnt appear for the U23s against Bristol City either
I have said it before but a league one winning team should not have pratley starting so much.
He was great last season when we was underdogs and needed him to be the spoiler and he played that role brilliantly.
In our last league one team pratley was not a first choice midfielder only coming in when players injured, needed a rest or a big game where his experience was needed.
The fact pratley is playing so much says it all in that Bowyer attitude has changed a bit, he used to be all we play our football and score more goals then you, goals win games etc and it was great. I understand the switch back end of last year but think he is stuck in that mentality a bit now.
It may well be that he has to play this way and that the players we have he can’t not play that way and is getting annoyed with the players but I think he would do well to keep it in house it’s starting to cause a negative vibe.
To be fair to him it’s obvious we are lacking pace but he needs to find away around that until such time we have it back. I still think bowyer is the man for the job and is in so much credit but I am concerned and hope the rot has not set in.
To add though, we are not far away from being a very good league one team as we have the basis of that just missing pace.
We had blips in 18/19 but bowyer found away around them and no reason he can’t again so I have faith in him.
I got up at 6 this morning instead of 7. Just so that I could be angry at yesterday's performance for an extra hour. Still fuming.
This entirely. It's not the result I'm so upset, angry, pissed about, it's the PERFORMANCE. Too often we play crap football, regardless of the actual result.
Innis and Famewo getting injured when they did seems to have put the brakes on our season and LB has changed his approach. We now have Famewo and Pearce fit, which is certainly a top 6 CB pairing, now Bowyer needs to sort out his midfield. Pratley and Watson together is a huge no no. Don’t be afraid to drop one (at the moment it would be Watson imo) and get us playing with a bit of width and freedom.
Formations are effective based on the players you have available. We simply do not have sufficient energy and flair in the more ‘central midfielders’ we have available to us, as we have in the past couple of seasons, Aribo, Gallagher, Cullen spring to mind to persevere with it and it is beginning to hurt us. The coaches need to step back in my opinion and rethink how they are setting us up to play and with the personnel we have in mind. Personally, I would go 4-2-3-1 at the moment with both Doughty and Smyth out, handing the CDM roles to Pratley and Watson with Gilbey, Shinnie and Maddison in the CAM roles behind Aneke or Bogle. Gilbey and Maddison have proven that they are more than capable of scoring goals at L1 level and this formation would give them more latitude to do just that.
Innis and Famewo getting injured when they did seems to have put the brakes on our season and LB has changed his approach. We now have Famewo and Pearce fit, which is certainly a top 6 CB pairing, now Bowyer needs to sort out his midfield. Pratley and Watson together is a huge no no. Don’t be afraid to drop one (at the moment it would be Watson imo) and get us playing with a bit of width and freedom.
Dont think it helps we've now lost Shinnie - Always said myself that when we had a fit midfield I'd be surprised to see Pratley and Watson together... As @Sage said on a preview, the players at the moment insist on playing a tiresome game of tag with injuries
Formations are effective based on the players you have available. We simply do not have sufficient energy and flair in the more ‘central midfielders’ we have available to us, as we have in the past couple of seasons, Aribo, Gallagher, Cullen spring to mind to persevere with it and it is beginning to hurt us. The coaches need to step back in my opinion and rethink how they are setting us up to play and with the personnel we have in mind. Personally, I would go 4-2-3-1 at the moment with both Doughty and Smyth out, handing the CDM roles to Pratley and Watson with Gilbey, Shinnie and Maddison in the CAM roles behind Aneke or Bogle. Gilbey and Maddison have proven that they are more than capable of scoring goals at L1 level and this formation would give them more latitude to do just that.
Exactly, we are trying to play Bowyerball without the players to do it. Look at the midfielders when we have played it successfully and they're full of legs and technical ability, and up front we had trickery and speed. We're playing the same system now with ageing cloggers, box to box samey midfielders and no stand out strikers. It's just not working.
Innis and Famewo getting injured when they did seems to have put the brakes on our season and LB has changed his approach. We now have Famewo and Pearce fit, which is certainly a top 6 CB pairing, now Bowyer needs to sort out his midfield. Pratley and Watson together is a huge no no. Don’t be afraid to drop one (at the moment it would be Watson imo) and get us playing with a bit of width and freedom.
Dont think it helps we've now lost Shinnie - Always said myself that when we had a fit midfield I'd be surprised to see Pratley and Watson together... As @Sage said on a preview, the players at the moment insist on playing a tiresome game of tag with injuries
It’s not ideal but when you’ve got Williams and Morgan on the bench against the team 23rd in the table, it’s still not necessary.
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That being said, for him sticking by the club in our worst moment, I'd never sack him. Never. He embodies the club. Just gotta hope he gets it right eventually.
Gunter looked good when he started his career with us at right back. He is probably as bad a makeshift centre half as you can get and he must have lost a lot of confidence playing there as he took that into yesterday's game. I find it incredible he got 6s, even 5s in the player marks. He was an accident waiting to happen throughout. I personally attribute the loss of about 5 points since Gillingham to him. But on Wednesday, the ease a MK forward bypassed Matthews just by cutting to the right was disturbing too. These are two international full backs and should be doing better.
Bowyer seems to have accepted we can't play front foot football and needs his defence to be sorted, so we can carry on stopping teams and grabbing wins with the little bit of quality we have. I have no issue with playing Pratley and Watson together when we are playing a decent team away, but it is a negative tactic. If it wins you games, you can't complain. But it does mean we are not going to dominate any side.
What I think Bowyer is poor at, is adapting the tactics to what he has. He has a system/s and the players have to accommodate it. That sometimes means fitting square pegs in round holes and that doesn't usually improve you. Because he knows we are fitting square pegs in round holes, he has probably lost confidence and that is why he is going so negative when we have something to hold on to. Some teams can close games effectively, but we are not one of them. He instilled a panic into the side that he didn't need too with the subbing of Williams. Who I thought, pulling out of a tackle or not, was doing the job we needed.
Contrary to the point a poster made about being annoyed that he draws so many fouls. That is probably the best way of closing out a game there is. Look at the best sides. When they have a slender lead, they love being fouled. A good manager chasing a game with little time to go instructs his team to let the game flow and not give away fouls.
Just so that I could be angry at yesterday's performance for an extra hour.
Still fuming.
But to cap it off, the Williams substitution gets a full and frank airing in public. Having the boss pull your trousers down in front of everyone is a terrible bit of leadership, and as a former player, Bows should know that.
I think our winning run has led us to see the squad as better than it is - goals being a problem was suggested in September and confirmed ever since. But we need to be more positive. I used to love Bowyers ability to make a team better than the sum of it's parts. That hasn't happened this year.
For me, Bowyer is still in credit. But he needs to turn this around, accept he has also made mistakes, and unite the players. As Elfs said, there is no divine right to win. We need to earn it. And Bows probably owes the squad an apology. A bit of team building would go a long way this week.
I still have absolute faith in our manager.
As @MuttleyCAFC says above, Gunter's mistakes keep costing us. Yet he's probably able to stand up for himself in a way that Jonny Williams isn't. Directly responsible for one of the Burton goals and 2 penalties in the last 4 games. Not called out in public. When he made the sub I said to my daughter that we'll concede now, as we've all seen what happens when we go too defensive. And after all we were holding on to a 1 goal lead at Shrewsbury, likely relegation candidates. What could go wrong? This is not good management - we all know it: if it was happening to me I'd be turning around to my boss and telling them that bullying doesn't work and in LB's case, I'd be telling him that I expect better from him.
I'm not going to lose perspective - Bowyer's got miles of credit left - but I'm expecting a narrow win for Wimbledon next week and a gradual drift down to mid table until January unless something changes. Players were prepared to run through brick walls for him before, so why are they not paying attention now?
I was saying on the match thread I didn't understand why Morgan, who's been in excellent form, hasn't been starting particularly when he was taken off in our surrender mid-week. He wasn't great yesterday and played his part in the error that led to their penalty. So, what do I know? Not a lot but I'm paying to watch this crap and I'm entitled to an opinion even if it's wrong. Thought the makeshift CB pairing worked. Watson needs a rest. Or Pratley. Amos kept us in it, again (I can forgive his mistakes, he's massively in credit on that score). Maatsen a bit sloppy but one of the few with any energy. The move that led to our goal was good work from Bogle and Williams. Gilbey showed flashes of being good, but mostly wasn't. Aneke fed on scraps, surrounded by 2-3 Salopian giants every time we hoofed it long - who could have predicted that? Washington largely anonymous. JFC didn't really get going.
If they were genuinely any good they wouldnt be down where they are