It all comes down to believing in the person. Do you believe in Bowyer or not? I do. This is his first job and we all learn by our mistakes, Most of us actually get better through our experiences. Yet football managers are not given that chance to grow without getting fired.
We are not going to be relegated and this is a guy who has a completely different starting 11 than from Leeds game barely 7 months ago and not by choice. He’s shown too much quality up until the last few months. Il be with him to the end not just out of loyalty but because I believe in his ability.
So how is Bowyer learning from his mistakes, as we all do?
Managing people doesn’t work like that IMHO. You have a team of people who believe in you back in July and were 3 points away from staying up, You then lose all your best employees and you have to basically start again in a completely unstable work environment. We have no idea what is going on in the background and by the comment I assume unless you see a big improvement in results he’s not learning anything. Who knows it could be a month or it could be 6 months by the time we are back on track. We’ve had some shocking managers over the last 5 or 6 years and Bowyer as shown us he’s a good manager. Again completely different personnel from 7 months ago, I don’t understand the rush for him to leave.
I was quoting from your comment. You said "This is his first job and we all learn by our mistakes".
I don't see any evidence that he is learning from his mistakes. You may assume that I mean "unless you see a big improvement in results he’s not learning anything" but that isn't what I mean. What I mean is that we are seeing poor strategy, poor set up of teams and poor performances and, yes, poor results, presumably at least in part because of those issues. This has been going on for a while, so by your own criteria, if learning from your mistakes is a given or a requirement, he doesn't seem to be doing it.
It all comes down to believing in the person. Do you believe in Bowyer or not? I do. This is his first job and we all learn by our mistakes, Most of us actually get better through our experiences. Yet football managers are not given that chance to grow without getting fired.
We are not going to be relegated and this is a guy who has a completely different starting 11 than from Leeds game barely 7 months ago and not by choice. He’s shown too much quality up until the last few months. Il be with him to the end not just out of loyalty but because I believe in his ability.
He's shown zero quality in the last few months.
But that falls on everyone’s shoulders not just Bowyer
But he is the manager. Part of the job description of a manager is that the buck stops there.
Curbs used to have spells where we'd struggle for a good few weeks. He'd go back to basics. Solidify everything. Build from the back and it would slowly build confidence back up. Tough to watch at times but it worked.
Now we struggle. Put on a half decent performance where you think we'll push on and a week later we're back where we started.
I actually thought Bowyer would struggle with the losing cycle early on in his managerial career with us. There just didn't seem to be much in his locker. But he proved me wrong. Whether that was because of the players he had at his disposal I don't know?
But it's proving itself with a vengeance now. He hasn't got the answers.
I know we're not meant to mention his name on here, but I think we're now seeing how integral a certain Nottingham forest striker was to Bowyer's success
I know we're not meant to mention his name on here, but I think we're now seeing how integral a certain Nottingham forest striker was to Bowyer's success
I have been watching Charlton since mid eighties. I have always like Bowyer and really wanted him to turn it round but today's game was the final straw for me. Bowyer, has the look of a man that needs a rest from football and recharge the batteries. Taking our defence aside for one minute, we have the strongest players going forward, but our tactics are woeful. As someone said earlier there is no tactics. First half it was play long long, long ball, long ball. The strikers had no service. Why was Millar switched from left wing to the right wing ang and started on the right wing. Matsen is very weak on the left. Second half I was puzzled as to why he brought in Watson (he offered nothing and has no pace), Morgan, not blessed with huge pace and can't remember who else he brought on. Millar fade 2nd half (was that due to these tactics). We never changed tactics 2nd half. Again, it was long ball to no-one. It was no surprise when Fleetwood scored, as they tried that same move FOUR times. so why didn't anyone pick up their scorer? Bowyer should have sorted that out. He didn't. He is tactically naive, loves the diamond. I ws crying for that Swindon player to come on and have 2 wingers, Millar on the left and the other one on the right? Why does he not play him? I will still watch Valley Pass to the end of the season as they have Scotty, Brown and Curbs. However the football is so shit and the worse I have seen for many if a year and can't see Bows turning it round. He is outfought and outplayed by every other Manage in this league. How may wins now in 20 games, 4? that is shocking. The other side of it is that we will need a manager who will attract the right players.
I know we're not meant to mention his name on here, but I think we're now seeing how integral a certain Nottingham forest striker was to Bowyer's success
A very fair point in reflection.
I've been thinking it for a while, but didn't want to admit it!
I know we're not meant to mention his name on here, but I think we're now seeing how integral a certain Nottingham forest striker was to Bowyer's success
Pierre van Hooijdonk only played against Bowyer once I believe and that was 24 years ago.
I know we're not meant to mention his name on here, but I think we're now seeing how integral a certain Nottingham forest striker was to Bowyer's success
Not only HIM but real high quality loans such as Bielik, Cullen and Gallagher. A couple of "characters" like that in the dressing room quickly bring up the standard of training and lead, despite being youngsters, by example.
Does Bowyer need to work, does he need the money or can he retire to his carp lakes? He looks like he’s lost the appetite for the job and is just waiting for his pay off.
It all comes down to believing in the person. Do you believe in Bowyer or not? I do. This is his first job and we all learn by our mistakes, Most of us actually get better through our experiences. Yet football managers are not given that chance to grow without getting fired.
We are not going to be relegated and this is a guy who has a completely different starting 11 than from Leeds game barely 7 months ago and not by choice. He’s shown too much quality up until the last few months. Il be with him to the end not just out of loyalty but because I believe in his ability.
So how is Bowyer learning from his mistakes, as we all do?
Managing people doesn’t work like that IMHO. You have a team of people who believe in you back in July and were 3 points away from staying up, You then lose all your best employees and you have to basically start again in a completely unstable work environment. We have no idea what is going on in the background and by the comment I assume unless you see a big improvement in results he’s not learning anything. Who knows it could be a month or it could be 6 months by the time we are back on track. We’ve had some shocking managers over the last 5 or 6 years and Bowyer as shown us he’s a good manager. Again completely different personnel from 7 months ago, I don’t understand the rush for him to leave.
I was quoting from your comment. You said "This is his first job and we all learn by our mistakes".
I don't see any evidence that he is learning from his mistakes. You may assume that I mean "unless you see a big improvement in results he’s not learning anything" but that isn't what I mean. What I mean is that we are seeing poor strategy, poor set up of teams and poor performances and, yes, poor results, presumably at least in part because of those issues. This has been going on for a while, so by your own criteria, if learning from your mistakes is a given or a requirement, he doesn't seem to be doing it.
Fair points, but we have a completely different set of players with so many ins and outs. Poor strategy and set up would be in the search for results as he tries to find a solution with these players. Bowyer will make many more mistakes Personally I believe growth and learning can take time and patience is required. But I also understand why many people have lost belief in him, but that’s not for me as 2 months of underperformance isn’t enough for me to lose faith in Bowyer after 3 years of him managing us.
I have been watching Charlton since mid eighties. I have always like Bowyer and really wanted him to turn it round but today's game was the final straw for me. Bowyer, has the look of a man that needs a rest from football and recharge the batteries. Taking our defence aside for one minute, we have the strongest players going forward, but our tactics are woeful. As someone said earlier there is no tactics. First half it was play long long, long ball, long ball. The strikers had no service. Why was Millar switched from left wing to the right wing ang and started on the right wing. Matsen is very weak on the left. Second half I was puzzled as to why he brought in Watson (he offered nothing and has no pace), Morgan, not blessed with huge pace and can't remember who else he brought on. Millar fade 2nd half (was that due to these tactics). We never changed tactics 2nd half. Again, it was long ball to no-one. It was no surprise when Fleetwood scored, as they tried that same move FOUR times. so why didn't anyone pick up their scorer? Bowyer should have sorted that out. He didn't. He is tactically naive, loves the diamond. I ws crying for that Swindon player to come on and have 2 wingers, Millar on the left and the other one on the right? Why does he not play him? I will still watch Valley Pass to the end of the season as they have Scotty, Brown and Curbs. However the football is so shit and the worse I have seen for many if a year and can't see Bows turning it round. He is outfought and outplayed by every other Manage in this league. How may wins now in 20 games, 4? that is shocking. The other side of it is that we will need a manager who will attract the right players.
Millar on the right I assume was so we had pace on both wings, with Shinnie hopefully giving Maatsen a bit more protection defensively (but will concede that REALLY didn't work out) up against their big pacy wing back. Watson on was to make sure Pratley didn't get sent off as he'd been booked. Morgan's passing actually led to some of our better moments of the second half, but I agree the midfield generally wasn't really at the races today.
If there was ANY sign that anything was being learned, then perhaps that point would be valid. But it's the SAME mistakes being made, repeatedly - something that (just as an example) Powell very notably didn't do very often. He got some things wrong but very rarely did he make the same mistake twice.
And growth and learning require willing and effort to be achieved - it's fair to question whether Bowyer is actually making any effort in that regard. His body language and tone of voice seem resigned and we've gone (by his own words alone) from seeing less than 6th as failure to being midtable dross as "overachieving" in less than a month.
I know we're not meant to mention his name on here, but I think we're now seeing how integral a certain Nottingham forest striker was to Bowyer's success
Personally think that's just complete bs.
What about Aribo? Bauer? And a number of others.
What's the forward in question doing now?
Hes sitting on the bench...because he's not good enough.
Bowyer and Taylor had a good personal connection when things were going well. They had a professional mutual bond. (before the year 2020 started)
Also remember bowyer got the best out of us post Robinson. We didn't have Taylor in the 17/18 season.
Taylor was hugely important but we were never a one man band. We just signed a good striker at the time and we made the most out of what he had to offer.
If there was ANY sign that anything was being learned, then perhaps that point would be valid. But it's the SAME mistakes being made, repeatedly - something that (just as an example) Powell very notably didn't do very often. He got some things wrong but very rarely did he make the same mistake twice.
And growth and learning require willing and effort to be achieved - it's fair to question whether Bowyer is actually making any effort in that regard. His body language and tone of voice seem resigned and we've gone (by his own words alone) from seeing less than 6th as failure to being midtable dross as "overachieving" in less than a month.
It’s completely fair to question where we are going but look at the quality of player we have lost in the last 7 months. The frustration must be immense. The guy knows us inside and out and has probably seen and heard far too much in the last 3 years with the off field debacle. It’s 2 months not a season, why wouldn’t we give him this off season with a years off the field stability under his belt. By all means if we are not in top 6 by December then ok he’s had a reasonable amount of time.
I made quite clear that those wanting change six weeks or so ago were imo far too soon off the mark with it and there were factors that needed to be taken into consideration and were overwhelmingly pointing towards, stability, giving time, giving a chance for Bowyer to work through this period.
But its getting harder and harder to maintain that stance and it feels heavy heart territory is potentially approaching quite quickly.
Cold facts are just 3 wins in 13, 13 points out of 36. That’s not good enough against anyone at our clubs expectations in L1, including Bowyer i’m sure.
More importantly than the results, performances are just not picking up and the whole season has been a drought where it comes to ‘good performances’.
Unless a miracle happens now I think it’s looking almost certain that Bowyer won’t be managing us next season. I suspect there’s all sorts of strategy and financial considerations on whether to enforce the change earlier or not, but further poor performances and result in the next few games may hasten it regardless.
This is quite funny. An evolution over six weeks which make the 'factors' no longer relevant?
Or a simple realisation of what many of us knew back then?
I was taught that it is acceptable to criticise ... but ... only if you have suggestions for improvement. After all, we can all be negative. The question is ... what have you got that's better?
Some simple observations from today, which underline why Bowyer has to go:
1) We had players today who barely touched the ball (Schwartz, for sure, in the First Half ... and even Smith who, as a central midfield player, should be repeatedly involved. Similarly, Washington in the Second Half).
What did they do about it? What did Bowyer do about it?
If you are a forward player who isn't getting into the game, you go looking for the ball. You make things happen. You get simple touches. You get yourself involved. Otherwise, it's 11v10.
2) At the start, we played a midfield four. Millar on the right, Smith and Pratley in the middle, and Shinnie sort of middle-left. Fleetwood got some joy down our left as Maatsen had little cover. What cover he may have had was going to come from Shinnie.
Hmmm ... nice idea, Lee.
Here's what you do, Lee ... you play Millar on the left, you play Shinnie in the middle (because that's where he is going to play anyway) and you play Jaiyesimi on the right.
Yes, that's Jaiyesimi ... our Championship player. Where was he today?
3) When things were going badly at the start of the Second Half, Bowyer made a triple substitution. Washington, Morgan and Watson for Schwartz, Smith and Pratley.
Except ... it's really just like-for-like, isn't it? Nothing really changes. It's a set of substitutions born of Hope.
No change to the game plan (whatever that was). Just put good players out on the field, Lee, and the rest will take care of itself, won't it? Sadly, it doesn't work like that, Lee.
We should have got Washington to drop deeper, we should have played with two wingers (Millar on the left, Jaiyesimi on the right) and mix up play by hitting short balls to Stockley's feet and crosses to his head. We did absolutely zero of any of that, and yielded most of the Second Half to a limited Fleetwood team ... and Bowyer did nothing about it.
4) Finally (before I turn into Grapevine) ... this squad is going nowhere. Are you listening, Thomas?
Successful teams have a 'feel' to them. You don't get success by scuffing out results. You know that things will go your way most times. There is an inner confidence ... a calmness ... a tranquillity. Knowing that, if you do the things that you are good at, then results will generally go your way.
This squad doesn't know which day of the week it is.
I know we're not meant to mention his name on here, but I think we're now seeing how integral a certain Nottingham forest striker was to Bowyer's success
Know what you mean but is that a weakness or true for many managers when they go through a good spell?
It's not the likes of Gunter, Washington, Pratley etc that will get us promoted, it's your best players that can make a team a promotion winning side.
I'd say it was the same with Kermorgant in Powell's title winning season. We'd have never done so well had Hayes remained as first choice. We'd have also found it harder if our back four hadn't stayed fit almost all season.
Robinson took MK Dons up when he finally got the right balance of players to play his style.
Things might have not worked out for Curbs in the same way had Kinsella or Mendonca not signed for whatever reason. We wouldn't have done so well in the early Prem years had Parker not developed as a player.
While the point is true its difficult to blame Bowyer for not replacing Taylor with a player of similar quality. There aren't many at this level, especially not under a wage cap and late on in the summer window or during the January one.
If he does go and I don’t think he will, then I hope that a caretaker is put in place until the end of the season with a proper search and big bucks salary to attract a proven track record manager. Gambling on maybes and wannabes could leave us in league one for some time. Manager is the most important position at the club.
I think we need a non Charlton man, with a fresh approach. Someone like Powell would split the fan base I think.
It’s actually wonderfully ironic that what used to be a joke meme is actually now a picture of a manager doing a much better job than Bowyer who probably wouldn’t consider us!
It all comes down to believing in the person. Do you believe in Bowyer or not? I do. This is his first job and we all learn by our mistakes, Most of us actually get better through our experiences. Yet football managers are not given that chance to grow without getting fired.
We are not going to be relegated and this is a guy who has a completely different starting 11 than from Leeds game barely 7 months ago and not by choice. He’s shown too much quality up until the last few months. Il be with him to the end not just out of loyalty but because I believe in his ability.
So how is Bowyer learning from his mistakes, as we all do?
Managing people doesn’t work like that IMHO. You have a team of people who believe in you back in July and were 3 points away from staying up, You then lose all your best employees and you have to basically start again in a completely unstable work environment. We have no idea what is going on in the background and by the comment I assume unless you see a big improvement in results he’s not learning anything. Who knows it could be a month or it could be 6 months by the time we are back on track. We’ve had some shocking managers over the last 5 or 6 years and Bowyer as shown us he’s a good manager. Again completely different personnel from 7 months ago, I don’t understand the rush for him to leave.
6 months til we improve? Backing Bowyer over the success of Charlton. I just don't get it.
I made quite clear that those wanting change six weeks or so ago were imo far too soon off the mark with it and there were factors that needed to be taken into consideration and were overwhelmingly pointing towards, stability, giving time, giving a chance for Bowyer to work through this period.
But its getting harder and harder to maintain that stance and it feels heavy heart territory is potentially approaching quite quickly.
Cold facts are just 3 wins in 13, 13 points out of 36. That’s not good enough against anyone at our clubs expectations in L1, including Bowyer i’m sure.
More importantly than the results, performances are just not picking up and the whole season has been a drought where it comes to ‘good performances’.
Unless a miracle happens now I think it’s looking almost certain that Bowyer won’t be managing us next season. I suspect there’s all sorts of strategy and financial considerations on whether to enforce the change earlier or not, but further poor performances and result in the next few games may hasten it regardless.
This is quite funny. An evolution over six weeks which make the 'factors' no longer relevant?
Or a simple realisation of what many of us knew back then?
I was taught that it is acceptable to criticise ... but ... only if you have suggestions for improvement. After all, we can all be negative. The question is ... what have you got that's better?
Some simple observations from today, which underline why Bowyer has to go:
1) We had players today who barely touched the ball (Schwartz, for sure, in the First Half ... and even Smith who, as a central midfield player, should be repeatedly involved. Similarly, Washington in the Second Half).
What did they do about it? What did Bowyer do about it?
If you are a forward player who isn't getting into the game, you go looking for the ball. You make things happen. You get simple touches. You get yourself involved. Otherwise, it's 11v10.
2) At the start, we played a midfield four. Millar on the right, Smith and Pratley in the middle, and Shinnie sort of middle-left. Fleetwood got some joy down our left as Maatsen had little cover. What cover he may have had was going to come from Shinnie.
Hmmm ... nice idea, Lee.
Here's what you do, Lee ... you play Millar on the left, you play Shinnie in the middle (because that's where he is going to play anyway) and you play Jaiyesimi on the right.
Yes, that's Jaiyesimi ... our Championship player. Where was he today?
3) When things were going badly at the start of the Second Half, Bowyer made a triple substitution. Washington, Morgan and Watson for Schwartz, Smith and Pratley.
Except ... it's really just like-for-like, isn't it? Nothing really changes. It's a set of substitutions born of Hope.
No change to the game plan (whatever that was). Just put good players out on the field, Lee, and the rest will take care of itself.
We should have got Washington to drop deeper, we should have played with two wingers (Millar on the left, Jaiyesimi on the right) and mix up play by hitting short balls to Stockley's feet and crosses to his head. We did absolutely zero of any of that, and yielded most of the Second Half to a limited Fleetwood team ... and Bowyer did nothing about it.
4) Finally (before I turn into Grapevine) ... this squad is going nowhere. Are you listening, Thomas?
Successful teams have a 'feel' to them. You don't get success by scuffing out results. You know that things will go your way most times. There is an inner confidence ... a calmness ... a tranquillity. Knowing that, if you do the things that you are good at, then results will generally go your way.
This squad doesn't know which day of the week it is.
And they get that from Bowyer.
Quite funny how last week putting DJ on instead of the ‘clear and obvious’ Matt smith was a mistake
Today was sh*t, but all the hindsight warriors need to just give it a rest
Comments
I don't see any evidence that he is learning from his mistakes. You may assume that I mean "unless you see a big improvement in results he’s not learning anything" but that isn't what I mean. What I mean is that we are seeing poor strategy, poor set up of teams and poor performances and, yes, poor results, presumably at least in part because of those issues. This has been going on for a while, so by your own criteria, if learning from your mistakes is a given or a requirement, he doesn't seem to be doing it.
Now we struggle. Put on a half decent performance where you think we'll push on and a week later we're back where we started.
I actually thought Bowyer would struggle with the losing cycle early on in his managerial career with us. There just didn't seem to be much in his locker. But he proved me wrong. Whether that was because of the players he had at his disposal I don't know?
But it's proving itself with a vengeance now. He hasn't got the answers.
And growth and learning require willing and effort to be achieved - it's fair to question whether Bowyer is actually making any effort in that regard. His body language and tone of voice seem resigned and we've gone (by his own words alone) from seeing less than 6th as failure to being midtable dross as "overachieving" in less than a month.
Personally think that's just complete bs.
What about Aribo? Bauer? And a number of others.
What's the forward in question doing now?
Hes sitting on the bench...because he's not good enough.
Bowyer and Taylor had a good personal connection when things were going well.
They had a professional mutual bond. (before the year 2020 started)
Also remember bowyer got the best out of us post Robinson. We didn't have Taylor in the 17/18 season.
Taylor was hugely important but we were never a one man band. We just signed a good striker at the time and we made the most out of what he had to offer.
It’s completely fair to question where we are going but look at the quality of player we have lost in the last 7 months. The frustration must be immense. The guy knows us inside and out and has probably seen and heard far too much in the last 3 years with the off field debacle. It’s 2 months not a season, why wouldn’t we give him this off season with a years off the field stability under his belt. By all means if we are not in top 6 by December then ok he’s had a reasonable amount of time.
Or a simple realisation of what many of us knew back then?
I was taught that it is acceptable to criticise ... but ... only if you have suggestions for improvement. After all, we can all be negative. The question is ... what have you got that's better?
Some simple observations from today, which underline why Bowyer has to go:
1) We had players today who barely touched the ball (Schwartz, for sure, in the First Half ... and even Smith who, as a central midfield player, should be repeatedly involved. Similarly, Washington in the Second Half).
What did they do about it? What did Bowyer do about it?
If you are a forward player who isn't getting into the game, you go looking for the ball. You make things happen. You get simple touches. You get yourself involved. Otherwise, it's 11v10.
2) At the start, we played a midfield four. Millar on the right, Smith and Pratley in the middle, and Shinnie sort of middle-left. Fleetwood got some joy down our left as Maatsen had little cover. What cover he may have had was going to come from Shinnie.
Hmmm ... nice idea, Lee.
Here's what you do, Lee ... you play Millar on the left, you play Shinnie in the middle (because that's where he is going to play anyway) and you play Jaiyesimi on the right.
Yes, that's Jaiyesimi ... our Championship player. Where was he today?
3) When things were going badly at the start of the Second Half, Bowyer made a triple substitution. Washington, Morgan and Watson for Schwartz, Smith and Pratley.
Except ... it's really just like-for-like, isn't it? Nothing really changes. It's a set of substitutions born of Hope.
No change to the game plan (whatever that was). Just put good players out on the field, Lee, and the rest will take care of itself, won't it? Sadly, it doesn't work like that, Lee.
We should have got Washington to drop deeper, we should have played with two wingers (Millar on the left, Jaiyesimi on the right) and mix up play by hitting short balls to Stockley's feet and crosses to his head. We did absolutely zero of any of that, and yielded most of the Second Half to a limited Fleetwood team ... and Bowyer did nothing about it.
4) Finally (before I turn into Grapevine) ... this squad is going nowhere. Are you listening, Thomas?
Successful teams have a 'feel' to them. You don't get success by scuffing out results. You know that things will go your way most times. There is an inner confidence ... a calmness ... a tranquillity. Knowing that, if you do the things that you are good at, then results will generally go your way.
This squad doesn't know which day of the week it is.
And they get that from Bowyer.
It's not the likes of Gunter, Washington, Pratley etc that will get us promoted, it's your best players that can make a team a promotion winning side.
I'd say it was the same with Kermorgant in Powell's title winning season. We'd have never done so well had Hayes remained as first choice. We'd have also found it harder if our back four hadn't stayed fit almost all season.
Robinson took MK Dons up when he finally got the right balance of players to play his style.
Things might have not worked out for Curbs in the same way had Kinsella or Mendonca not signed for whatever reason. We wouldn't have done so well in the early Prem years had Parker not developed as a player.
While the point is true its difficult to blame Bowyer for not replacing Taylor with a player of similar quality. There aren't many at this level, especially not under a wage cap and late on in the summer window or during the January one.
Today was sh*t, but all the hindsight warriors need to just give it a rest