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Has Bowyer lost it?

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  • We, as a club, always will require a Charlton manager that has had a previous affiliation with us. 

    We're not a West brom. We can't just have any old name that would be willing to take the job...because they simply just...want a job.

    I wouldn't have curbs back though as I don't think he would want to manage again. The blokes had enough and the game has changed. We also have a very good history with him and it's unnecessary to spoil it.

    He is and was an outstanding manager though. 
    That's a difficult one. Not too sure about it either way.

    I honestly wouldn't actually mind the potential of a Danish saandguard connection. Someone that has managed in their national side, perhaps. Or Copenhagen...high up and respected.

    Sounds awfully hypocritical...considering the Roland Belgian waffles reaction and the fact that I said a charlton connection is needed.

    I would personally take an experienced Danish manager...if we was to choose an outsider.


  • edited February 2021
    Valley11 said:
    boggzy said:
    Valley11 said:
    Backed him and continue to do so but it’s worrying. We have a very good squad and they’ve looked devoid of ideas, shape or consistency.

    Bowyer’s subs today were just bizarre. 

    I get the feeling he doesn’t know what system to play, which means the players don’t know what to do either.

    Consistency is the key and we just haven’t had any of it all season. 

    Given your observations, I genuinely don't understand why you are still backing him.
    Because he’s a decent manager. He’s proved that over the last two seasons. There have been mitigating circumstances this season, although I agree, those excuses are wearing thin.

    I’m just tired of the upheaval and mess of the last few years and don’t fancy more of it by binning off Bowywr and going through another cycle of big name/big reputation managers who want to change the squad AGAIN and don’t work out. 

    I think it’ll be very interesting to see what Thomas does. His first big decision, really. I hope he doesn’t bring in an unknown Dane, however well intentioned that might be. 
    We didn't go through any big name managers.. They were all foreign no marks brought in by Roland the rat.
  • edited February 2021
    jakecafc said:
    Valley11 said:
    boggzy said:
    Valley11 said:
    Backed him and continue to do so but it’s worrying. We have a very good squad and they’ve looked devoid of ideas, shape or consistency.

    Bowyer’s subs today were just bizarre. 

    I get the feeling he doesn’t know what system to play, which means the players don’t know what to do either.

    Consistency is the key and we just haven’t had any of it all season. 

    Given your observations, I genuinely don't understand why you are still backing him.
    Because he’s a decent manager. He’s proved that over the last two seasons. There have been mitigating circumstances this season, although I agree, those excuses are wearing thin.

    I’m just tired of the upheaval and mess of the last few years and don’t fancy more of it by binning off Bowywr and going through another cycle of big name/big reputation managers who want to change the squad AGAIN and don’t work out. 

    I think it’ll be very interesting to see what Thomas does. His first big decision, really. I hope he doesn’t bring in an unknown Dane, however well intentioned that might be. 
    We didn't go through any big name managers.. They were all foreign no marks brought in by Roland the rat.
    I was thinking of Robinson. A well respected League 1 boss who was heralded when appointed. 
    Who is out there that you’d realistically want instead of Bowyer?
  • esseffect said:
    Dazzler21 said:
    We've started 

    19 different defences, 26 midfields and 23 forward lines now. 

    Rochdale and Gillingham the only two consecutive 11s.
    Obsessed 
    Being that the only enforced changes were JFC for Smith and Schwartz for Aneke...

    Switching Shinnie and Millar disrupted both players though Shinnie did get a decent assist.

    Bringing Famewo in for me changed nothing other than messing with chemistry a bit. But it was obvious he was coming in and it was great to see him back.

    I said on the Match thread I had little complaint about the squad selection, I just wanted to show that we have played 19 different defences, 26 midfields and 23 forward lines this season. You can not honestly believe that isn't too much fiddling around with the squad.

    my concern today though was the effort on display and obviously the scoreline. As the game went on it became obvious that our players still aren't playing as a team.

    You'd also note if you weren't so obsessed about slating fans for their opinions that I haven't criticised Bowyer at all today. I have simply voiced concerns about how things appeared.
  • Croydon said:
    It all comes down to believing in the person. Do you believe in Bowyer or not? I do. This is his first job and we all learn by our mistakes, Most of us actually get better through our experiences. Yet football managers are not given that chance to grow without getting fired.

    We are not going to be relegated and this is a guy who has a completely different starting 11 than from Leeds game barely 7 months ago and not by choice. He’s shown too much quality up until the last few months. Il be with him to the end not just out of loyalty but because I believe in his ability.
    So how is Bowyer learning from his mistakes, as we all do?

    Managing people doesn’t work like that IMHO. You have a team of people who believe in you back in July and were 3 points away from staying up, You then lose all your best employees and you have to basically start again in a completely unstable work environment. We have no idea what is going on in the background and by the comment I assume unless you see a big improvement in results he’s not learning anything. Who knows it could be a month or it could be 6 months by the time we are back on track. We’ve had some shocking managers over the last 5 or 6 years and Bowyer as shown us he’s a good manager. Again completely different personnel from 7 months ago, I don’t understand the rush for him to leave.
    6 months til we improve? Backing Bowyer over the success of Charlton. I just don't get it.
    We’ve been pretty much awful for the last 15 years barring 1 or 2 seasons. I’d rather give the guy responsible for 1 of those good seasons more time because I believe that’s what’s best for the club in the long run. Just think back to Slade or Robinson, wasted seasons wouldn’t you agree? People assume the next manager will be better in the long term, but it could be more wasted seasons. I know it’s not a popular view and we all just want the team to do well.
  • Dave2l said:
    We, as a club, always will require a Charlton manager that has had a previous affiliation with us. 

    We're not a West brom. We can't just have any old name that would be willing to take the job...because they simply just...want a job.

    I wouldn't have curbs back though as I don't think he would want to manage again. The blokes had enough and the game has changed. We also have a very good history with him and it's unnecessary to spoil it.

    He is and was an outstanding manager though. 
    That's a difficult one. Not too sure about it either way.

    I honestly wouldn't actually mind the potential of a Danish saandguard connection. Someone that has managed in their national side, perhaps. Or Copenhagen...high up and respected.

    Sounds awfully hypocritical...considering the Roland Belgian waffles reaction and the fact that I said a charlton connection is needed.

    I would personally take an experienced Danish manager...if we was to choose an outsider.


    I get the feeling Curbs appetite has been whetted by his involvement on Valley pass and the idea of working with our new owner appeals to him. 
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  • Difficult to add anything new. I think Dave Rudd’s comments further above are a pretty fair summary that mirror my views. When the triple substitution was made early in the second half my wife turned to me and said “Is he looking to try something different tactically or is that simply three like-for-like substations”. It did indeed turn out to be the latter with absolutely no improvement.

    It has been clear for some time that Maatsen is more comfortable going forward, but looks a little suspect in his defending, with Purrington the direct opposite. Am not sure why he rotated back to Maatsen for this particular game and it did feel like there was a lack of cover in front of him in the first half.

    It is somewhat subjective but I look at our squad and it does seem to me that on paper we have much more strength in depth than the majority of league 1 clubs and we should be performing much better. I was hoping that Bowyer was the man to take us forward under Sandgaard (god knows he deserves a chance to manage with some stability and support from a good owner). However, despite achieving promotion two years ago and manfully trying to keep us up last year, I don’t think he now has the fight or tactical nous in him to take us forward. I would be pleased if I am wrong.

    Would another year in league 1 under Bowyer with the platform of a proper pre-season and a well planned summer recruitment process result in success? I am not convinced right now and you have to assume Sandgaard is at least mulling this over given his ambitions for the club. 


  • I’m sure Lee Bowyer will be relieved to hear that he has my support until Christmas. I think that’s fair.
  • agim said:
    I saw enough from Bowyer in the two years previous to know there's a good manager in there. That for me is enough to give him a full pre season and summer window with a owner that will back him. If we aren't in contention by mid October with a squad he has built then that's the time to go. Everyone is desperate to get out of this league which I get but give him a chance without he's hands tied behind his back for once. If he stays until the summer I can see about 15 players leaving 
    Whoever is in charge next season, I think it will be Bowyer still I hope they won’t make these two mistakes in the summer.

    1) Stop getting the maximum amount of loan players in. Get the bare minimum not maximum.

    2) Sign younger demographic of players. Need to reduce the average of the squad and not increase it.
  • Bowyer to me seems exhausted from what's gone on off the pitch. 

    The mess off the pitch began in Late November and lasted till September. That's around 9 months of uncertainty that nearly led to us going under. 

    The stress and uncertainty from that was a nightmare for fans, staff and players

    Bowyer knew it early on when he did that interview for the Hull Game on sky last year. 9 months of not knowing what was going to happen would have damaging long term effect on anyone decision making and feelings towards their position.

    This period also saw our best player and goalscorer refuse to play in a relegation battle, when as a manager you rely on these players to help you out in the bad times. If we had of stayed up, it would have given bowyer a huge boost and possibly rejuvenated him. Considering that would be just a big of an achievment as winning promotion and with Sangaard over him, imo we would comfortably mid table in the championship or at least giving it a right go. 

    Roland, Meire, Southall, Nimer, Farnell and Elliot and all the others have done huge damage long term that means that we have to plan long term, so I understand why people would want Bowyer to stay.

    But tactically he has been bad this season. The chopping and changing of starting 11s just suggests no belief in the players he has and unsure on the team he has and a lot of that comes from long term off the pitch problems, not the whole reason but it's a huge factor. 

    I think we need a fresh start, who that is I don't know, but I don't think under Bowyer we're going up anytime soon 
  • edited February 2021
    Cafc43v3r said:
    I think all the speculation of if/when Thomas sacks him is irrelevant.

    He will walk, and soon. 

    You can suggest he has or hasn't lost the dressing room but they aren't running through walls for him and he now knows it. 

    I hope the next manager doesn't regret Williams going. 
    We seem to be on the same page in terms of the need for Bowyer to go and have been for a while. But a difference is that you believe, from that comment, that Bowyer is more loyal than I do. I am not saying he is disloyal, but he is loyal like a footballer with an affection for a club is loyal. If he walks away, he loses around £1m. I don't believe he is ever going to walk, and that is probably an understandable reason why Thomas is reluctant to sack him. 
  • agim said:
    I saw enough from Bowyer in the two years previous to know there's a good manager in there. That for me is enough to give him a full pre season and summer window with a owner that will back him. If we aren't in contention by mid October with a squad he has built then that's the time to go. Everyone is desperate to get out of this league which I get but give him a chance without he's hands tied behind his back for once. If he stays until the summer I can see about 15 players leaving 
    Whoever is in charge next season, I think it will be Bowyer still I hope they won’t make these two mistakes in the summer.

    1) Stop getting the maximum amount of loan players in. Get the bare minimum not maximum.

    2) Sign younger demographic of players. Need to reduce the average of the squad and not increase it.
    Yes I agree. There's nothing wrong with a loan signing but if you've got 5 in a starting 11 that's half the team that are temporary. I think it would also be wise to have loan slots free for later in the season. 3 players I'd sign first thing in the summer would be Baxter on loan from Chelsea he's Accrington keeper. Balogun on loan from Arsenal who's a young forward that looks rapid and can score goals and Also Bishop from Accrington a young forward who has come up from non league and looks hungry. 
    I'd be inclined to try and sign Stockley and if we could I'd probably let Aneke go. As much as I like Pratley it's probably time to say bye and start building a midfield around JFC and Morgan. 2 decent CBs are needed urgently too
  • UEAAddick said:
    Bowyer to me seems exhausted from what's gone on off the pitch. 

    The mess off the pitch began in Late November and lasted till September. That's around 9 months of uncertainty that nearly led to us going under. 

    The stress and uncertainty from that was a nightmare for fans, staff and players

    Bowyer knew it early on when he did that interview for the Hull Game on sky last year. 9 months of not knowing what was going to happen would have damaging long term effect on anyone decision making and feelings towards their position.

    This period also saw our best player and goalscorer refuse to play in a relegation battle, when as a manager you rely on these players to help you out in the bad times. If we had of stayed up, it would have given bowyer a huge boost and possibly rejuvenated him. Considering that would be just a big of an achievment as winning promotion and with Sangaard over him, imo we would comfortably mid table in the championship or at least giving it a right go. 

    Roland, Meire, Southall, Nimer, Farnell and Elliot and all the others have done huge damage long term that means that we have to plan long term, so I understand why people would want Bowyer to stay.

    But tactically he has been bad this season. The chopping and changing of starting 11s just suggests no belief in the players he has and unsure on the team he has and a lot of that comes from long term off the pitch problems, not the whole reason but it's a huge factor. 

    I think we need a fresh start, who that is I don't know, but I don't think under Bowyer we're going up anytime soon 
    In any normal walk of life Bowyer would of had a proper break after the summer window shut.  It probably would have made the world of difference.

    The reasons it's got to this stage are undeniable, but that doesn't change the fact we have.

    Most of us are formed from situations as young adults, it's telling the amount of times he references getting dropped by Graham at Leeds.  IMO Bowyer's solution to any football problem is work harder, try more things, try and be more clever with "wacky" formations.

    If we stick with Bowyer through the summer he is going to get, what, a week off? Then come back and have to deal with 20 odd transfers? 

    If you going to do that give him April off although you run the risk of an up turn in performances "proving" he was the problem. 


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  • Cafc43v3r said:
    I think all the speculation of if/when Thomas sacks him is irrelevant.

    He will walk, and soon. 

    You can suggest he has or hasn't lost the dressing room but they aren't running through walls for him and he now knows it. 

    I hope the next manager doesn't regret Williams going. 
    We seem to be on the same page in terms of the need for Bowyer to go and have been for a while. But a difference is that you believe, from that comment, that Bowyer is more loyal than I do. I am not saying he is disloyal, but he is loyal like a footballer with an affection for a club is loyal. If he walks away, he loses around £1m. I don't believe he is ever going to walk, and that is probably an understandable reason why Thomas is reluctant to sack him. 
    I don't think it's loyalty as such. I don't think he would have taken the job in the 1st place if he didn't think we could get promoted, I equally don't think he would have stayed if he didn't think he could keep us in the championship.  Even with Roland's budget. 
  • edited February 2021
    RedRobin said:
    Can’t see Thomas sacking Bowyer anytime soon, I think he will review at the end of the season and see where things are. The club needs stability and making a change so quickly will not benefit anyone! Like many id be tempted to change but who realistically would we get in now to change anything? 
    Cook
    cowleys
    curbs
    powell (I wouldn’t)
    euell
    neil Harris (sorry)
    a young coach from a bigger club
    sol Campbell (joke)

    nows the time so that a new man has time to assess and draw up targets, decide who to keep and who to move on.
    Cook or Cowleys are a shout. They’d come as well. Would take Powell back but unsure if it’ll be the same as last time.
  • It is @GenevaCharlton and it’s very easy for fans to ‘make’ these decisions when it’s not them that actually have to make it and have a full insight into the other considerations and impacts attached to it (financial etc).

    Interesting though on where roughly your trigger point is for not having faith in taking forward next year, as I’m hovering around mine. 
  • He seems a bit like Frodo after destroying the ring. Somethings not quite right and be needs to and recover at his fishing lakes.
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    UEAAddick said:
    Bowyer to me seems exhausted from what's gone on off the pitch. 

    The mess off the pitch began in Late November and lasted till September. That's around 9 months of uncertainty that nearly led to us going under. 

    The stress and uncertainty from that was a nightmare for fans, staff and players

    Bowyer knew it early on when he did that interview for the Hull Game on sky last year. 9 months of not knowing what was going to happen would have damaging long term effect on anyone decision making and feelings towards their position.

    This period also saw our best player and goalscorer refuse to play in a relegation battle, when as a manager you rely on these players to help you out in the bad times. If we had of stayed up, it would have given bowyer a huge boost and possibly rejuvenated him. Considering that would be just a big of an achievment as winning promotion and with Sangaard over him, imo we would comfortably mid table in the championship or at least giving it a right go. 

    Roland, Meire, Southall, Nimer, Farnell and Elliot and all the others have done huge damage long term that means that we have to plan long term, so I understand why people would want Bowyer to stay.

    But tactically he has been bad this season. The chopping and changing of starting 11s just suggests no belief in the players he has and unsure on the team he has and a lot of that comes from long term off the pitch problems, not the whole reason but it's a huge factor. 

    I think we need a fresh start, who that is I don't know, but I don't think under Bowyer we're going up anytime soon 
    In any normal walk of life Bowyer would of had a proper break after the summer window shut.  It probably would have made the world of difference.

    The reasons it's got to this stage are undeniable, but that doesn't change the fact we have.

    Most of us are formed from situations as young adults, it's telling the amount of times he references getting dropped by Graham at Leeds.  IMO Bowyer's solution to any football problem is work harder, try more things, try and be more clever with "wacky" formations.

    If we stick with Bowyer through the summer he is going to get, what, a week off? Then come back and have to deal with 20 odd transfers? 

    If you going to do that give him April off although you run the risk of an up turn in performances "proving" he was the problem. 


    It’s an interesting thought that having a little time away maybe good for Bowyer and the team. As you say though in football especially if results and performances suddenly picked up that the conclusion would be that its time for him to go. Alas in football no one gets a mini sabbatical from a club.
  • agim said:
    agim said:
    I saw enough from Bowyer in the two years previous to know there's a good manager in there. That for me is enough to give him a full pre season and summer window with a owner that will back him. If we aren't in contention by mid October with a squad he has built then that's the time to go. Everyone is desperate to get out of this league which I get but give him a chance without he's hands tied behind his back for once. If he stays until the summer I can see about 15 players leaving 
    Whoever is in charge next season, I think it will be Bowyer still I hope they won’t make these two mistakes in the summer.

    1) Stop getting the maximum amount of loan players in. Get the bare minimum not maximum.

    2) Sign younger demographic of players. Need to reduce the average of the squad and not increase it.
    Yes I agree. There's nothing wrong with a loan signing but if you've got 5 in a starting 11 that's half the team that are temporary. I think it would also be wise to have loan slots free for later in the season. 3 players I'd sign first thing in the summer would be Baxter on loan from Chelsea he's Accrington keeper. Balogun on loan from Arsenal who's a young forward that looks rapid and can score goals and Also Bishop from Accrington a young forward who has come up from non league and looks hungry. 
    I'd be inclined to try and sign Stockley and if we could I'd probably let Aneke go. As much as I like Pratley it's probably time to say bye and start building a midfield around JFC and Morgan. 2 decent CBs are needed urgently too
    You would let our top scorer go and replace him with a forward who could be playing championship football next season?
  • It is @GenevaCharlton and it’s very easy for fans to ‘make’ these decisions when it’s not them that actually have to make it and have a full insight into the other considerations and impacts attached to it (financial etc).

    Interesting though on where roughly your trigger point is for not having faith in taking forward next year, as I’m hovering around mine. 
    Barring something catastrophic ie sliding into relegation trouble I’d like to see how we start next season. As others have said I would write this season off and get some stability on the ins and outs hopefully.
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Roland Out Forever!