Has Bowyer lost it?

Chunes

Croydon said:

Chunes said:

“I’ve been here for less than a couple of weeks but can see he’s really good at managing the team and knows what he wants to do.

“I can see how keen he is on the detail and how he wants to play, it’s not kick-and-rush."

That was from Ronnie. There have been others but I'm not going to look for them. Remember the player apparently said "We never discuss or practice tactics."

Bonne said as soon as he heard of QPR his head was turned, but it was widely accepted on here that that was just a sound bite. I'd assume Ronnie js the same

That's just an example of a player saying something in an interview but regretting it because of the fan reaction and retracting it. For me, it doesn't undermine something Ronnie Schwarz says. And then it becomes a rabbit hole argument of can you trust what players say interviews, even basic harmless comments about what they've been doing since they joined. Which doesn't feel very appealing right now

MrOneLung

Sorry, what reported comments are we talking about re the tactics and training not working
who said this ?

carly burn

Time is definitely running out.
Im thinking Tuesday could be for Bowyer like Powell's Cardiff moment.

In a hole, he asked his players to get him out of it. To a man they stood up for a gaffer they all respected.

Let's see if the same relationship exists between players and coach on Tuesday?

I have a hunch they'll hang him out to dry.

Gravesend_Addick

I tend to take Facebook/Twitter rumours & 'I heard through a friend' with a pinch of salt.

However, if any of the stuff posted above is true, Bowyers days are numbered 

Callumcafc

DamoNorthStand said:

I have also heard from a friend who worked with Ged Roddy at Bath Uni that he has said to Saandgard that he can’t work with Bowyer - various reason listed including things like his language to the players, demeanour, respect to players on the training ground and processes (whatever that means). Only happy to share now as it seems to have also come out elsewhere.

Would fit with why Roddy has been very quiet.

Regardless of Bowyer’s performance, not impressed IF Roddy is going around shooting his mouth off about what he’s saying to Sandgaard. That’s the kind of thing that a well run club keeps behind closed doors.

Dave2l

carly burn said:

Time is definitely running out.
Im thinking Tuesday could be for Bowyer like Powell's Cardiff moment.

In a hole, he asked his players to get him out of it. To a man they stood up for a gaffer they all respected.

Let's see if the same relationship exists between players and coach on Tuesday?

I have a hunch they'll hang him out to dry.

It's disgusting really.

They probably have some knobhead WhatsApp group where his name will obviously pop up.

Why not just play for the badge and the club itself...instead of seeing it as an "us Vs them" situation.

So it's suddenly just having the all out freedom to not give a toss and be casually unprofessional.

If they are fed up with his plans and he's losing the dressing room. I hope they are just respectfully upfront with him about it.

If Bowyer is unnecessarily creating more problems instead of reducing or solving them.

Sadly, maybe it would be time for him to go.

I personally still believe in him though.

He is beyond competitive. An attitude that results in highs and lows.

J BLOCK

Chunes said: hi

oohaahmortimer said:

J Block heard it first  hand from a player and I heard it third hand from a friend of a friend (nowt to do with J block ) 
saying the players weren’t happy with training and tactics 

The player allegedly said the team never discuss tactics, so not sure how the team could also be unhappy with the tactics

I think that particular accusation has been dispelled in various player interviews since anyway

I will say that they didn't come out second half looking like they believed in what they were doing 

He didn’t allegedly say it. He did say it. It is a tenured player too. 

Nothing on the pitch has shown me that anything he said was wrong. 

Chunes

For me, the target for the season was the play-offs and he has to make that or he has to go. Even if we do scrape it, I wouldn't like to be the one making the decision in the summer. I feel totally ambivalent about the whole thing now. 

ShootersHillGuru

ValleyGary said:

Roddy was Sangaards appointment, Bowyer wasn’t. There’s only gonna be one winner there.

This just about sums it up.

lordromford

I think we’ll get a sense of whether Bowyer thinks his job is on the line on Tuesday just from whether Famewo plays or not.

Looking at Famewo’s situation in isolation, he’s been out for ages, came straight back in the starting 11 and played 90. (That’s pretty unusual in itself, but you can see why he kept him on as we were under so much pressure.)
Now in any normal circumstances, a manager would give Famewo a break on Tuesday - wrap him in cotton wool, let him recover a bit, no need to start him against a bottom half team and risk losing him for the rest of the season - but if a manager feels like his head is on the block, he needs to play his best side to give himself the best chance of survival. This means Famewo plays and Lee risks him getting injured.

Famewo plays - Bowyer is fighting to keep his job.
Famewo on the bench - Bowyer feels his job is safe for now.

ShootersHillGuru

lordromford said:

I think we’ll get a sense of whether Bowyer thinks his job is on the line on Tuesday just from whether Famewo plays or not.

Looking at Famewo’s situation in isolation, he’s been out for ages, came straight back in the starting 11 and played 90. (That’s pretty unusual in itself, but you can see why he kept him on as we were under so much pressure.)
Now in any normal circumstances, a manager would give Famewo a break on Tuesday - wrap him in cotton wool, let him recover a bit, no need to start him against a bottom half team and risk losing him for the rest of the season - but if a manager feels like his head is on the block, he needs to play his best side to give himself the best chance of survival. This means Famewo plays and Lee risks him getting injured.

Famewo plays - Bowyer is fighting to keep his job.
Famewo on the bench - Bowyer feels his job is safe for now.

I can see where you’re coming from with this but I’ve long given up guessing Lee’s selection choices and reasons. 

Dave Rudd

If Bowyer did get the chop, do we think that he would look for another football manager job ... or would he simply spend his time fishing?  Remember that he kind of stumbled into football management.

I think the second option is more likely ... much more likely ... and, if so, is that the man who should be charged with getting us out of League 1 and beyond?

Braziliance

I think Famewo plays regardless because Jason Pearce is no longer a good defender and he doesn't trust anyone else.

I will watch Burton out of curiosity now. I genuinely reckon if we fail to win Thomas will make a decision. Lee seemed to me like a man that had given up hope completely. From a completely positive man, to angry at underperforming players to admitting defeat effectively. 

My opinion won't change on Bowyer what so ever, genuinely believe if he went to another club he would do well. Definitely a good manager in there and I wanted a fairy tale story with him at the club, but unfortunately reality bites 

Gravesend_Addick

Dave Rudd said:

If Bowyer did get the chop, do we think that he would look for another football manager job ... or would he simply spend his time fishing?  Remember that he kind of stumbled into football management.

I think the second option is more likely ... much more likely ... and, if so, is that the man who should be charged with getting us out of League 1 and beyond?

If he is no longer our manager, I don't really care what he does after that

Redrobo

J BLOCK said:

Chunes said: hi

oohaahmortimer said:

J Block heard it first  hand from a player and I heard it third hand from a friend of a friend (nowt to do with J block ) 
saying the players weren’t happy with training and tactics 

The player allegedly said the team never discuss tactics, so not sure how the team could also be unhappy with the tactics

I think that particular accusation has been dispelled in various player interviews since anyway

I will say that they didn't come out second half looking like they believed in what they were doing 

He didn’t allegedly say it. He did say it. It is a tenured player too. 

Nothing on the pitch has shown me that anything he said was wrong. 

He may have said it, but I just do not believe him. 

All clubs analyse everything to death. All players are given instructions on their role in and out of possession. The management team will know all about other players behaviour, which way they turn, teams favourite plays, identified weaknesses and strengths etc etc. Is this player suggesting that Bowyer knows all this but does not tell them?
Do you think they just rock up to training and just have a run about?

Interviews are littered with comments like Bowyer told about making runs into the box, we practiced that on the training ground, we knew this was a weakness.
Millar only said last week that Bowyer and him had a one to one training session after training on playing other in and how pleased he was that it came off in the next game.

AndyG

Imo it has gone beyond all the has he lost it or not aspect of what this thread started out as. Football is a results business end of. Whatever the reasons behind it we can all debate until the cows come home but this current squad is underachieving by any any measure ( apart from LB who actually thinks the opposite) how many teams in this league would swap their squad for ours ? Very few I would think. As football is a results business LB has already had more time than many would have been given imo time now for results or he will be gone I think

AndyG

AndyG said:

Imo it has gone beyond all the has he lost it or not aspect of what this thread started out as. Football is a results business end of. Whatever the reasons behind it we can all debate until the cows come home but this current squad is underachieving by any any measure ( apart from LB who actually thinks the opposite) how many teams in this league would swap their squad for ours ? Very few I would think. As football is a results business LB has already had more time than many would have been given imo time now for results or he will be gone I think

Wouldnt swap I meant obviously 🙄

Cafc43v3r

Redrobo said:

J BLOCK said:

Chunes said: hi

oohaahmortimer said:

J Block heard it first  hand from a player and I heard it third hand from a friend of a friend (nowt to do with J block ) 
saying the players weren’t happy with training and tactics 

The player allegedly said the team never discuss tactics, so not sure how the team could also be unhappy with the tactics

I think that particular accusation has been dispelled in various player interviews since anyway

I will say that they didn't come out second half looking like they believed in what they were doing 

He didn’t allegedly say it. He did say it. It is a tenured player too. 

Nothing on the pitch has shown me that anything he said was wrong. 

He may have said it, but I just do not believe him. 

All clubs analyse everything to death. All players are given instructions on their role in and out of possession. The management team will know all about other players behaviour, which way they turn, teams favourite plays, identified weaknesses and strengths etc etc. Is this player suggesting that Bowyer knows all this but does not tell them?
Do you think they just rock up to training and just have a run about?

Interviews are littered with comments like Bowyer told about making runs into the box, we practiced that on the training ground, we knew this was a weakness.
Millar only said last week that Bowyer and him had a one to one training session after training on playing other in and how pleased he was that it came off in the next game.

Now you have put it like that I have totally changed my mind.  Every game is a clear tactical master class, from inverted full backs, strikers as wing backs, defending the 6 yard box for 20 minutes when 1 up, half time substitutes and 4 different formations in almost ever game.  It only begs the question why everyone else doesn't do any of.  Clearly ahead of his time. 

Maccn05

two things on this thread bother me:

1. Sir Chris coming back - it’s not going to happen he just turned down an interview at AFC Wimbledon and has said he’s happy, yes we have a place in his heart but so do Spurs, I’m pretty sure they are his club. Let’s confine this one along with the bring back Curbs to the bad idea / not going to happen box.

2. These rumours about Ged Roddy concern me a man sacked at Reading for ‘communication issues’ Isn’t his role to help the academy and the manager? not be stirring up trouble, surely he should work how Bows wants not the other way round - something about this man doesn’t sit right with me

For what it’s worth I’m a staunch fan of Bows and stability but as every game passes it becoming harder and harder to see a positive end and these kind of rumours normally start coming out just before the axe swings!

Sad times.

Todds_right_hook

Cafc43v3r said:

Regarding tactics and sets ups, formations etc.

Bowyer was the sort of player that if the manager said your playing right back today, he would go and do it.  Even if he had never played there before.  His basic skill set and knowledge of the game we see him able to "do a job".  But he was a top top player, no one in our current squad is close in terms of that.  Not even Pratley, Watson Gunter etc even when they were 10 years younger.

Millar, in 6 weeks, has played in 5 different positions for us!  That's not normal. 

Roy Keane had similar problems when he was a manager. 

A good manager at this level is able to negate the weakness in his players.

Is the fact the best players under Bowyer are all now playing at a higher level cause or effect?

I don't see any improvement in players with a lower level of potential like JFC, Morgan, Oshilaja. 

Ironic really seeing bowyer asked an attacking player to play at right back this season

RodneyCharltonTrotta

Callumcafc said:

DamoNorthStand said:

I have also heard from a friend who worked with Ged Roddy at Bath Uni that he has said to Saandgard that he can’t work with Bowyer - various reason listed including things like his language to the players, demeanour, respect to players on the training ground and processes (whatever that means). Only happy to share now as it seems to have also come out elsewhere.

Would fit with why Roddy has been very quiet.

Regardless of Bowyer’s performance, not impressed IF Roddy is going around shooting his mouth off about what he’s saying to Sandgaard. That’s the kind of thing that a well run club keeps behind closed doors.

Very unprofessional if true and doesn't speak well of the gossipmonger if it is.

Cafc43v3r

Funny how these rumours come out the weekend after an interview with Thomas talking about Roddy, when his name has hardly been mentioned for months. 

MuttleyCAFC

Braziliance said:

I think Famewo plays regardless because Jason Pearce is no longer a good defender and he doesn't trust anyone else.

I will watch Burton out of curiosity now. I genuinely reckon if we fail to win Thomas will make a decision. Lee seemed to me like a man that had given up hope completely. From a completely positive man, to angry at underperforming players to admitting defeat effectively. 

My opinion won't change on Bowyer what so ever, genuinely believe if he went to another club he would do well. Definitely a good manager in there and I wanted a fairy tale story with him at the club, but unfortunately reality bites 

I don't disagree that he could do a great job somewhere else. He has shown that he can do it in the past and ultimately he is the same person. I think the issue is not even his fault. You can blame Roland and to a greater extent ESI for it. But he has fallen into a rut, as other managers have done, and there doesn't seem to be a way out of it with us.

I repeat it a lot because so many others don't seem to even acknowledge it, but his outlook has changed. In his early days, I can't recall a more positive, front foot Charlton manager, and currently I can't recall a more negative, back foot one. He probably needs a couple of months of R&R where he can work out what he has done right and what he has done wrong for himself. I just don't think he is somebody who can be told.  

Redrobo

Cafc43v3r said:

Redrobo said:

J BLOCK said:

Chunes said: hi

oohaahmortimer said:

J Block heard it first  hand from a player and I heard it third hand from a friend of a friend (nowt to do with J block ) 
saying the players weren’t happy with training and tactics 

The player allegedly said the team never discuss tactics, so not sure how the team could also be unhappy with the tactics

I think that particular accusation has been dispelled in various player interviews since anyway

I will say that they didn't come out second half looking like they believed in what they were doing 

He didn’t allegedly say it. He did say it. It is a tenured player too. 

Nothing on the pitch has shown me that anything he said was wrong. 

He may have said it, but I just do not believe him. 

All clubs analyse everything to death. All players are given instructions on their role in and out of possession. The management team will know all about other players behaviour, which way they turn, teams favourite plays, identified weaknesses and strengths etc etc. Is this player suggesting that Bowyer knows all this but does not tell them?
Do you think they just rock up to training and just have a run about?

Interviews are littered with comments like Bowyer told about making runs into the box, we practiced that on the training ground, we knew this was a weakness.
Millar only said last week that Bowyer and him had a one to one training session after training on playing other in and how pleased he was that it came off in the next game.

Now you have put it like that I have totally changed my mind.  Every game is a clear tactical master class, from inverted full backs, strikers as wing backs, defending the 6 yard box for 20 minutes when 1 up, half time substitutes and 4 different formations in almost ever game.  It only begs the question why everyone else doesn't do any of.  Clearly ahead of his time. 

Now you have put it like that I realise that we have the only football management team in the world that don’t discuss tactics and players who do not understand the basic formations or how to play.
I take it you have started early on the wine and did not grasp the topic of discussion.

MuttleyCAFC

Sometimes the truth may lie in the middle. I know from my own experience that when things are not going your way, tactics tend to be questioned more, from all quarters and most definitely within.

Ultimately, it is essential you bring your players with you, whatever your tactics. 

AndyG

The substitutes at half time yesterday showed a manager devoid of ideas they were just like for like with no change in approach. Ok pratley was booked so maybe he had to come off as the risk of a red was there but to take smith and Schwartz off to be replaced by Albie and Washington was going to do what ? Has Albie turned into a game changer overnight ? Has Washington shown he can do anything that would have been different to what we had on the pitch ? Everyone new that the wind in the 2nd half would mean we needed to change our approach apart from the manager it seems.

Redrobo

MuttleyCAFC said:

Sometimes the truth may lie in the middle. I know from my own experience that when things are not going your way, tactics tend to be questioned more, from all quarters and most definitely within.

Ultimately, it is essential you bring your players with you, whatever your tactics. 

But you do agree that they will be discussed?

MuttleyCAFC

Not sure what the point is other than a pedantic one. Tactics are either an issue or not, whether they are discussed or not. Or whether they are right or not. Sometimes the tactics can be right, but they are not sold to the players well enough. If you do badly, the tactics you don't employ, will generally be the right ones.

There is a communication and management element to this. But it is true, it is a lot harder to manage when things are going wrong. A different skillset is required, and many managers don't have it sadly.

If you want players to play in a certain way, you do have to sell it to them. That isn't to say they won't try, but they have to believe what they are doing is right to get the best out of them. If you get results, this is usually not questioned.

J BLOCK

.

Cafc43v3r

Redrobo said:

Cafc43v3r said:

Redrobo said:

J BLOCK said:

Chunes said: hi

oohaahmortimer said:

J Block heard it first  hand from a player and I heard it third hand from a friend of a friend (nowt to do with J block ) 
saying the players weren’t happy with training and tactics 

The player allegedly said the team never discuss tactics, so not sure how the team could also be unhappy with the tactics

I think that particular accusation has been dispelled in various player interviews since anyway

I will say that they didn't come out second half looking like they believed in what they were doing 

He didn’t allegedly say it. He did say it. It is a tenured player too. 

Nothing on the pitch has shown me that anything he said was wrong. 

He may have said it, but I just do not believe him. 

All clubs analyse everything to death. All players are given instructions on their role in and out of possession. The management team will know all about other players behaviour, which way they turn, teams favourite plays, identified weaknesses and strengths etc etc. Is this player suggesting that Bowyer knows all this but does not tell them?
Do you think they just rock up to training and just have a run about?

Interviews are littered with comments like Bowyer told about making runs into the box, we practiced that on the training ground, we knew this was a weakness.
Millar only said last week that Bowyer and him had a one to one training session after training on playing other in and how pleased he was that it came off in the next game.

Now you have put it like that I have totally changed my mind.  Every game is a clear tactical master class, from inverted full backs, strikers as wing backs, defending the 6 yard box for 20 minutes when 1 up, half time substitutes and 4 different formations in almost ever game.  It only begs the question why everyone else doesn't do any of.  Clearly ahead of his time. 

Now you have put it like that I realise that we have the only football management team in the world that don’t discuss tactics and players who do not understand the basic formations or how to play.
I take it you have started early on the wine and did not grasp the topic of discussion.

Just about to have a beer actually, I prefer it to the Kool Aid your obviously enduring.