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Vaccine

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  • I think the AZ vaccine will get dropped very soon from everywhere. 

    When there's less harmful alternatives, why would we still push forward and give this jab? 

    https://news.sky.com/story/risk-of-blood-clot-after-covid-is-eight-times-higher-than-after-astrazeneca-jab-study-12276088
    I don't get what you're trying to say.
    The report you quoted says there is less chance of getting a blood clot if you have the AZ vaccine (or another vaccine) than there is if you catch covid.
    So if you have the vaccine there is less chance of getting covid which means, in turn, there is less chance of getting a blood clot. 
    Or am I reading the story incorrectly?
  • I think the AZ vaccine will get dropped very soon from everywhere. 

    When there's less harmful alternatives, why would we still push forward and give this jab? 

    https://news.sky.com/story/risk-of-blood-clot-after-covid-is-eight-times-higher-than-after-astrazeneca-jab-study-12276088
    Because the jab is still less harmful than getting COVID. The link you’ve posted suggests this is true even from the blood clot point of view. 
  • edited April 2021
    I think the AZ vaccine will get dropped very soon from everywhere. 

    When there's less harmful alternatives, why would we still push forward and give this jab? 

    https://news.sky.com/story/risk-of-blood-clot-after-covid-is-eight-times-higher-than-after-astrazeneca-jab-study-12276088
    I don't get what you're trying to say.
    The report you quoted says there is less chance of getting a blood clot if you have the AZ vaccine (or another vaccine) than there is if you catch covid.
    So if you have the vaccine there is less chance of getting covid which means, in turn, there is less chance of getting a blood clot. 
    Or am I reading the story incorrectly?
    Just giving both sides of the argument really. 

    The study is interesting to look at but it is released by Oxford so they would have a bit of a vested interest in this line. More data i'm sure will be released in the months ahead. 

    I wonder if the reason the AZ vaccine has a higher risk of blood clotting is due to the make-up of the vaccine itself and how it uses the adenovirus using Corona genetic material. Would explain why the clotting risk is higher than Pfizer. 

    "The numbers in the study were too low to look specifically at the sub-group of people suffering a brain clot in combination with low platelets. That's the unusual feature that has led to several countries suspending use of the AstraZeneca vaccine in younger people."
  • edited April 2021
    Just had my 1st jab in Sidcup Tesco.
    Did you get points?
    Wondering whether it was an elbow or an untethered  brolly ....:-)

    ( Meant the Tesco "jab" ....)

  • edited April 2021
    Just had my 1st jab in Sidcup Tesco.
    Did you get Clubcard points? 

    Did they tell you when the needle was just in? 
  • Just had my 1st jab in Sidcup Tesco.
    Did you get points?
    Bollocks.  I am going to have to edit my joke now...
  • McBobbin said:
    I’m a bit disappointed in that, as it very clearly explains the issue with the vaccine cases and implies they form in the brain. It also says it’s a different mechanism to clots caused by the pill - but doesn’t explain what the implications are. Do they form in a different, less immediately risky location? Saying it works different is fine but it doesn’t clearly explain why that’s important. 
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  • Just had my second jab at St Thomas'. All done within ten minutes of arriving.
    Anybody that criticises the NHS needs to have a rethink.
    Same last Saturday - arrived 1/2 hour early - they said no problem - I was out before the actual appointment time!  Great service.  Felt a bit achy in the afternoon and tired with sore arm.  24 hours later nothing.  Was Pfizer/Biontech.
  • I think the AZ vaccine will get dropped very soon from everywhere. 

    When there's less harmful alternatives, why would we still push forward and give this jab? 

    https://news.sky.com/story/risk-of-blood-clot-after-covid-is-eight-times-higher-than-after-astrazeneca-jab-study-12276088
    Maybe because the other vaccines will also have side effects (I see the Johnson and Johnson one is being investigated in the US for the same). Maybe the mRNA vaccine side effects have not yet been noticed.

    also the AZ and J&J vaccines have benefits the others do not. Cost in the case of AZ, single shot in the case of J&J.

    Richer countries may choose to use mRNA vaccines over others if they have overcome volume restrictions but I doubt that AZ etc will be dropped everywhere. 
    Not just cost in the case of AZ, also ease of storage, which leads on to ease of distribution. (I think the same applies to the J&J, but I'd need to doublecheck that) It's still going to be needed in areas where they don't have access to the lower temperature refrigeration required by the MRNA ones, but probably won't end up being as profitable as they might've hoped.
  • edited April 2021
    CafcWest said:

    Different types of blood clots. 

    AZ Vaccine blood clots are a lot more dangerous and deadly. 
  • Something tells me SELR_addicks is a fan of Maggie Thatcher :smile:
    You turn if you want to, but the man's not for turning.
  • McBobbin said:
    I’m a bit disappointed in that, as it very clearly explains the issue with the vaccine cases and implies they form in the brain. It also says it’s a different mechanism to clots caused by the pill - but doesn’t explain what the implications are. Do they form in a different, less immediately risky location? Saying it works different is fine but it doesn’t clearly explain why that’s important. 
    It just suggests to me that "it's complicated" and also something of a false equivalence... But at the same time questions our attitude to risk. 
  • CafcWest said:

    Different types of blood clots. 

    AZ Vaccine blood clots are a lot more dangerous and deadly. 
    Just as well they are highly unlikely then! And...if you have the AZ vaccine you greatly.reduce your chances.of a covid-caused blood clot
  • McBobbin said:
    McBobbin said:
    I’m a bit disappointed in that, as it very clearly explains the issue with the vaccine cases and implies they form in the brain. It also says it’s a different mechanism to clots caused by the pill - but doesn’t explain what the implications are. Do they form in a different, less immediately risky location? Saying it works different is fine but it doesn’t clearly explain why that’s important. 
    It just suggests to me that "it's complicated" and also something of a false equivalence... But at the same time questions our attitude to risk. 
    I think the issue is that just saying “blood clots” and using the raw numbers doesn’t provide enough context. It’s really how many of these are immediately life threatening. Incidence is one measure, mortality rate is the one we need to see to get a better equivalence 
  • edited April 2021
    "You are correct that there are medications such as the contraceptive pill that can cause blood clots.

    But from a risk point of view, comparing the two (the AstraZeneca vaccine and the combined contraceptive pill) is problematic."

    You are more likely to get a blood clot from the combined contraceptive pill.

    Blood clots caused by the pill have been estimated to affect around 1 in 1,000 women.

    Whereas your risk of getting the clotting disorder from the AZ vaccine is around 4 in 1 million. (I believe it's now actually 5 or 6).

    But it's the fatality rate that really differs.

    With the combined oral contraceptive pill, your risk of dying from a blood clot has been estimated to be around 3 per cent.

    But the fatality rate from people who develop the rare clotting disorder after getting the AZ vaccine is estimated to be around 25 per cent.

    The reasons the death rates differ so much is that the clots formed by the vaccine are believed to be an immune response to the vaccine, and is not the same process in the body that can cause other more common clots like deep vein thrombosis.


    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-15/covid-vaccines-answered-questions-blood-clots-astrazeneca/100072386

  • CafcWest said:
    Just had my second jab at St Thomas'. All done within ten minutes of arriving.
    Anybody that criticises the NHS needs to have a rethink.
    Same last Saturday - arrived 1/2 hour early - they said no problem - I was out before the actual appointment time!  Great service.  Felt a bit achy in the afternoon and tired with sore arm.  24 hours later nothing.  Was Pfizer/Biontech.

    Nice to hear, onwards and upwards mate.
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  • "You are correct that there are medications such as the contraceptive pill that can cause blood clots.

    But from a risk point of view, comparing the two (the AstraZeneca vaccine and the combined contraceptive pill) is problematic."

    You are more likely to get a blood clot from the combined contraceptive pill.

    Blood clots caused by the pill have been estimated to affect around 1 in 1,000 women.

    Whereas your risk of getting the clotting disorder from the AZ vaccine is around 4 in 1 million. (I believe it's now actually 5 or 6).

    But it's the fatality rate that really differs.

    With the combined oral contraceptive pill, your risk of dying from a blood clot has been estimated to be around 3 per cent.

    But the fatality rate from people who develop the rare clotting disorder after getting the AZ vaccine is estimated to be around 25 per cent.

    The reasons the death rates differ so much is that the clots formed by the vaccine are believed to be an immune response to the vaccine, and is not the same process in the body that can cause other more common clots like deep vein thrombosis.


    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-15/covid-vaccines-answered-questions-blood-clots-astrazeneca/100072386

    So the risk of dying of the vaccine is one in a million (4 in a million times 25%) and for the pill is 3 in 100,000 (1 in 1000 times 3%)?

    The other thing to bear in mind is that millions more will have the vaccine that the pill, but the pill will presumably be taken year in, year out for a subset of women (vaccine may have a booster)

    Personally, I'll take the risk. You are probably as likely to die in a road accident on way to the clinic
  • edited April 2021
    McBobbin said:
    "You are correct that there are medications such as the contraceptive pill that can cause blood clots.

    But from a risk point of view, comparing the two (the AstraZeneca vaccine and the combined contraceptive pill) is problematic."

    You are more likely to get a blood clot from the combined contraceptive pill.

    Blood clots caused by the pill have been estimated to affect around 1 in 1,000 women.

    Whereas your risk of getting the clotting disorder from the AZ vaccine is around 4 in 1 million. (I believe it's now actually 5 or 6).

    But it's the fatality rate that really differs.

    With the combined oral contraceptive pill, your risk of dying from a blood clot has been estimated to be around 3 per cent.

    But the fatality rate from people who develop the rare clotting disorder after getting the AZ vaccine is estimated to be around 25 per cent.

    The reasons the death rates differ so much is that the clots formed by the vaccine are believed to be an immune response to the vaccine, and is not the same process in the body that can cause other more common clots like deep vein thrombosis.


    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-15/covid-vaccines-answered-questions-blood-clots-astrazeneca/100072386

    So the risk of dying of the vaccine is one in a million (4 in a million times 25%) and for the pill is 3 in 100,000 (1 in 1000 times 3%)?

    The other thing to bear in mind is that millions more will have the vaccine that the pill, but the pill will presumably be taken year in, year out for a subset of women (vaccine may have a booster)

    Personally, I'll take the risk. You are probably as likely to die in a road accident on way to the clinic
    This is also only after each jab remember. You have to take two. 
  • edited April 2021
    This Death thing ...

    Bear this in mind.

    If your chances of dying from the vaccine increase ... well then, your chances of dying from cancer, road accidents and/or a surfeit of lampreys correspondingly decrease.

    It's all about 'when' ... not 'how'.
  • Just had my 1st jab in Sidcup Tesco.

    Snap, late afternoon for me though. Very efficient, AZ, I'll take my chances.
  • Rob7Lee said:
    Just had my 1st jab in Sidcup Tesco.

    Snap, late afternoon for me though. Very efficient, AZ, I'll take my chances.
    The guy booking us in was very chatty, made the time pass while waiting which helped me forget about the 4 in 1000000 of getting a fatal blood clot.
  • Rob7Lee said:
    Just had my 1st jab in Sidcup Tesco.

    Snap, late afternoon for me though. Very efficient, AZ, I'll take my chances.
    The guy booking us in was very chatty, made the time pass while waiting which helped me forget about the 4 in 1000000 of getting a fatal blood clot.
    Yer same bloke I think.

    Feel a bit rough this morning, almost a hangover feeling that I can just about remember, sweaty and legs ache, sure it'll pass.
  • I was expecting to get my second jab in the second week of May.

    Yesterday I got a text message from surgery to book an appointment. Off to Eltham this evening.

    I have read several warnings that the after effects of a second Pfizer jab are worse than the first. I was lucky enough not to have any the first time so I will have to wait and see.
  • I had second Pfizer.  First time no effects.  Second time - sore arm for a couple of days and 24 hours of feeling quite tired.  
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