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Vaccine

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    All adults in England should be able to book their Covid-19 jab "by the end of this week", NHS England's chief executive says.

    Speaking at the NHS Confederation annual conference, Sir Simon Stevens predicts the national booking service will be open to all adults aged 18 and above by the end of the week.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-57480071

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    What a great initiative by the club
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    What a great initiative by the club
    Fully agree that it's a great initiative, shame it's needed though. I would have hoped that people would have volunteered through having an understanding the importance of the situation.
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    edited June 2021
    Legal challenge coming in 3,2,1….

    Although I hope to think that people working in those roles would be conscientious enough to get the jab in the first place.
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    Ross said:
    Legal challenge coming in 3,2,1….

    Although I hope to think that people working in those roles would be conscientious enough to get the jab in the first place.
    I think the take up is about 80% - interesting to see what happens.
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    My sister in law works in a care home in the West Country. She’s an anti vaxxer and all round conspiracy theorist. She hasn’t been vaccinated and has said she won’t. This will be a real dilemma for her. She’s not well qualified enough to easily walk into some other line of work. I doubt that the majority of care homes have the staffing luxury of moving people into non resident focussed work. Since Brexit I understand that getting staff into these needed but poorly paid roles is already quite a challenge. My guess is that she’s going to continue to refuse. I will keep you posted. As far as a legal challenge is concerned, I’m sure it will happen but it’s not clear to me who will champion it. This type of challenge is expensive and the vast vast majority of care home staff will not be members of a Trade Union. In any case I do wonder if many trade unions will be that keen to headline the fight when in general I think the majority of people think that the proposal is a good thing. I guess a civil liberties group might pick up the gauntlet but will they have resources enough ? It will also be interesting to see how this plays out within the NHS itself. Not all staff in the NHS have taken the vaccine. Hard to see legislation for private care homes but not front line NHS staff. This one will run I think.
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    Vaccine bookings now available for the following age categories, book on the link below
    • you're aged 21 or over
    • you'll turn 21 before 1 July 2021
    https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/coronavirus-vaccination/book-coronavirus-vaccination/
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    My sister in law works in a care home in the West Country. She’s an anti vaxxer and all round conspiracy theorist. She hasn’t been vaccinated and has said she won’t. This will be a real dilemma for her. She’s not well qualified enough to easily walk into some other line of work. I doubt that the majority of care homes have the staffing luxury of moving people into non resident focussed work. Since Brexit I understand that getting staff into these needed but poorly paid roles is already quite a challenge. My guess is that she’s going to continue to refuse. I will keep you posted. As far as a legal challenge is concerned, I’m sure it will happen but it’s not clear to me who will champion it. This type of challenge is expensive and the vast vast majority of care home staff will not be members of a Trade Union. In any case I do wonder if many trade unions will be that keen to headline the fight when in general I think the majority of people think that the proposal is a good thing. I guess a civil liberties group might pick up the gauntlet but will they have resources enough ? It will also be interesting to see how this plays out within the NHS itself. Not all staff in the NHS have taken the vaccine. Hard to see legislation for private care homes but not front line NHS staff. This one will run I think.
    Given the growing number of anti vaxxers I think you will ultimately have to go down the compulsory route - the safety of residents has to come first.
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    My sister in law works in a care home in the West Country. She’s an anti vaxxer and all round conspiracy theorist. She hasn’t been vaccinated and has said she won’t. This will be a real dilemma for her. She’s not well qualified enough to easily walk into some other line of work. I doubt that the majority of care homes have the staffing luxury of moving people into non resident focussed work. Since Brexit I understand that getting staff into these needed but poorly paid roles is already quite a challenge. My guess is that she’s going to continue to refuse. I will keep you posted. As far as a legal challenge is concerned, I’m sure it will happen but it’s not clear to me who will champion it. This type of challenge is expensive and the vast vast majority of care home staff will not be members of a Trade Union. In any case I do wonder if many trade unions will be that keen to headline the fight when in general I think the majority of people think that the proposal is a good thing. I guess a civil liberties group might pick up the gauntlet but will they have resources enough ? It will also be interesting to see how this plays out within the NHS itself. Not all staff in the NHS have taken the vaccine. Hard to see legislation for private care homes but not front line NHS staff. This one will run I think.
    Given the growing number of anti vaxxers I think you will ultimately have to go down the compulsory route - the safety of residents has to come first.

    Easy to do with new starters - it just becomes a 'genuine occupational requirement'. Back filling with existing staff is problematic from an employment law perspective, but not impossible.
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    bobmunro said:
    My sister in law works in a care home in the West Country. She’s an anti vaxxer and all round conspiracy theorist. She hasn’t been vaccinated and has said she won’t. This will be a real dilemma for her. She’s not well qualified enough to easily walk into some other line of work. I doubt that the majority of care homes have the staffing luxury of moving people into non resident focussed work. Since Brexit I understand that getting staff into these needed but poorly paid roles is already quite a challenge. My guess is that she’s going to continue to refuse. I will keep you posted. As far as a legal challenge is concerned, I’m sure it will happen but it’s not clear to me who will champion it. This type of challenge is expensive and the vast vast majority of care home staff will not be members of a Trade Union. In any case I do wonder if many trade unions will be that keen to headline the fight when in general I think the majority of people think that the proposal is a good thing. I guess a civil liberties group might pick up the gauntlet but will they have resources enough ? It will also be interesting to see how this plays out within the NHS itself. Not all staff in the NHS have taken the vaccine. Hard to see legislation for private care homes but not front line NHS staff. This one will run I think.
    Given the growing number of anti vaxxers I think you will ultimately have to go down the compulsory route - the safety of residents has to come first.

    Easy to do with new starters - it just becomes a 'genuine occupational requirement'. Back filling with existing staff is problematic from an employment law perspective, but not impossible.
    The NHS has occupational requirements and Care Homes need to as well. Given the number of people who died in care homes action needs to be taken.
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    bobmunro said:
    My sister in law works in a care home in the West Country. She’s an anti vaxxer and all round conspiracy theorist. She hasn’t been vaccinated and has said she won’t. This will be a real dilemma for her. She’s not well qualified enough to easily walk into some other line of work. I doubt that the majority of care homes have the staffing luxury of moving people into non resident focussed work. Since Brexit I understand that getting staff into these needed but poorly paid roles is already quite a challenge. My guess is that she’s going to continue to refuse. I will keep you posted. As far as a legal challenge is concerned, I’m sure it will happen but it’s not clear to me who will champion it. This type of challenge is expensive and the vast vast majority of care home staff will not be members of a Trade Union. In any case I do wonder if many trade unions will be that keen to headline the fight when in general I think the majority of people think that the proposal is a good thing. I guess a civil liberties group might pick up the gauntlet but will they have resources enough ? It will also be interesting to see how this plays out within the NHS itself. Not all staff in the NHS have taken the vaccine. Hard to see legislation for private care homes but not front line NHS staff. This one will run I think.
    Given the growing number of anti vaxxers I think you will ultimately have to go down the compulsory route - the safety of residents has to come first.

    Easy to do with new starters - it just becomes a 'genuine occupational requirement'. Back filling with existing staff is problematic from an employment law perspective, but not impossible.
    The NHS has occupational requirements and Care Homes need to as well. Given the number of people who died in care homes action needs to be taken.

    Yes it does, and that has been in place for years. Care homes do not and to introduce them has issues, but not insurmountable ones.
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    I saw from the time my Dad was in a care home, that you have to be a pretty special, caring kind of person to do the things that care home staff have to do. I certainly couldn't do a lot of the tasks they have to perform to keep elderly people clean and comfortable. I therefore find it very surprising that anyone caring for vulnerable people, would choose not to be vaccinated, unless there is a very good medical reason.
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    I saw from the time my Dad was in a care home, that you have to be a pretty special, caring kind of person to do the things that care home staff have to do. I certainly couldn't do a lot of the tasks they have to perform to keep elderly people clean and comfortable. I therefore find it very surprising that anyone caring for vulnerable people, would choose not to be vaccinated, unless there is a very good medical reason.
    Anti vaxxers are everywhere.
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    Civil liberties do not give you the right to put vulnerable people at risk or forgo basic duty of care.

    If you're too selfish/ ignorant/ ill informed or just don't want to take a vaccine then that's your look out but you don't get to put vulnerable people's health at serious or potentially fatal risk in the same way alcoholics don't get to drive school buses.

    Should be counter legal cases herein should it transpire that anti vax "carers" (ironic) who pose a risk are allowed to be in such close contact with such a critically at risk section of our society on a daily basis in a pandemic.

    Millions could't see families,, let alone give them a hug, the economy had been shot to bits with people's careers on hold or down the toilet and we cant live a normal life.... but divvy Doris can spend 8 hours a day moving old folk around in their rooms and cleaning their teeth inbetween anti vax protests and posting on conspiracy Facebook pages because it's her "right" to put others at extreme risk.

    Fuck doris and anyone who legally defends her and her ilk.

    Get in the real world ffs.
    I’m not defending people who won’t get vaccinated. I 100% think all care home staff should be vaccinated. In fact I would go as far as to say that all public employees should be required but at this point it is a civil liberties issue because that’s how this proposal will be resisted. It’s exactly why the government have resisted the urge to bring in some sort of vaccine passport. 
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    Civil liberties do not give you the right to put vulnerable people at risk or forgo basic duty of care.

    If you're too selfish/ ignorant/ ill informed or just don't want to take a vaccine then that's your look out but you don't get to put vulnerable people's health at serious or potentially fatal risk in the same way alcoholics don't get to drive school buses.

    Should be counter legal cases herein should it transpire that anti vax "carers" (ironic) who pose a risk are allowed to be in such close contact with such a critically at risk section of our society on a daily basis in a pandemic.

    Millions could't see families,, let alone give them a hug, the economy had been shot to bits with people's careers on hold or down the toilet and we cant live a normal life.... but divvy Doris can spend 8 hours a day moving old folk around in their rooms and cleaning their teeth inbetween anti vax protests and posting on conspiracy Facebook pages because it's her "right" to put others at extreme risk.

    Fuck doris and anyone who legally defends her and her ilk.

    Get in the real world ffs.
    I’m not defending people who won’t get vaccinated. I 100% think all care home staff should be vaccinated. In fact I would go as far as to say that all public employees should be required but at this point it is a civil liberties issue because that’s how this proposal will be resisted. It’s exactly why the government have resisted the urge to bring in some sort of vaccine passport. 
    The civil liberties of residents are obviously an issue - too many people know their rights but forget the rights of others. Need to sort this out and stop indulging the selfish.


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    Ross said:
    Legal challenge coming in 3,2,1….

    Although I hope to think that people working in those roles would be conscientious enough to get the jab in the first place.
    Do they not already have to have the yellow fever vaccine to work there and they have to declare their HIV status. Is this really any different?
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    Ross said:
    Legal challenge coming in 3,2,1….

    Although I hope to think that people working in those roles would be conscientious enough to get the jab in the first place.
    Do they not already have to have the yellow fever vaccine to work there and they have to declare their HIV status. Is this really any different?
    The difference is that the requirement for a COVID vaccination is not a current term or condition of their employment. 

    As I have repeatedly said, new starters no problem - any failure to comply would be a repudiatory breach of contract and a dismissal offence. They accepted the job on those terms. Not so with existing staff - you would offer them new terms and if they accept then fine, if they don’t then dismiss on the basis of fire/rehire. They could refuse the new terms and claim unfair dismissal (and would likely win). Doesn’t mean we don’t do it and I would suggest the government would need to underwrite the cost of employment tribunal claims.

    Should it be done? Yes. But there will be consequences, as above and a significant staff shortage - it is not exactly the easiest sector in which to recruit.


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    My sister in law works in a care home in the West Country. She’s an anti vaxxer and all round conspiracy theorist. She hasn’t been vaccinated and has said she won’t. This will be a real dilemma for her. She’s not well qualified enough to easily walk into some other line of work. I doubt that the majority of care homes have the staffing luxury of moving people into non resident focussed work. Since Brexit I understand that getting staff into these needed but poorly paid roles is already quite a challenge. My guess is that she’s going to continue to refuse. I will keep you posted. As far as a legal challenge is concerned, I’m sure it will happen but it’s not clear to me who will champion it. This type of challenge is expensive and the vast vast majority of care home staff will not be members of a Trade Union. In any case I do wonder if many trade unions will be that keen to headline the fight when in general I think the majority of people think that the proposal is a good thing. I guess a civil liberties group might pick up the gauntlet but will they have resources enough ? It will also be interesting to see how this plays out within the NHS itself. Not all staff in the NHS have taken the vaccine. Hard to see legislation for private care homes but not front line NHS staff. This one will run I think.
    When BBC radio 4 reported on the introduction of compulsory vaccination for care home workers yesterday morning, the situation re NHS staff was raised.  The interviewee replied that the question about the NHS would go out to consultation (as had happened for care staff) before a decision is made.  Which begs the question why it was not done at the same time!

    In my opinion, all NEW contracts in Care/NHS roles should already have the requirement for vaccination written into them - obviously, dealing with existing employees is more complex, and requires government action.  

    I think the new regulations must also apply in ALL situations where paid-for Care is being provided, including in people's own homes.  Otherwise, I can see many anti-vax carers who can no longer work in care homes will simply work instead for home-care companies.  Many of their clients are also very frail and vulnerable - My Mum was one of them.
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    N01R4M said:
    My sister in law works in a care home in the West Country. She’s an anti vaxxer and all round conspiracy theorist. She hasn’t been vaccinated and has said she won’t. This will be a real dilemma for her. She’s not well qualified enough to easily walk into some other line of work. I doubt that the majority of care homes have the staffing luxury of moving people into non resident focussed work. Since Brexit I understand that getting staff into these needed but poorly paid roles is already quite a challenge. My guess is that she’s going to continue to refuse. I will keep you posted. As far as a legal challenge is concerned, I’m sure it will happen but it’s not clear to me who will champion it. This type of challenge is expensive and the vast vast majority of care home staff will not be members of a Trade Union. In any case I do wonder if many trade unions will be that keen to headline the fight when in general I think the majority of people think that the proposal is a good thing. I guess a civil liberties group might pick up the gauntlet but will they have resources enough ? It will also be interesting to see how this plays out within the NHS itself. Not all staff in the NHS have taken the vaccine. Hard to see legislation for private care homes but not front line NHS staff. This one will run I think.
    When BBC radio 4 reported on the introduction of compulsory vaccination for care home workers yesterday morning, the situation re NHS staff was raised.  The interviewee replied that the question about the NHS would go out to consultation (as had happened for care staff) before a decision is made.  Which begs the question why it was not done at the same time!

    In my opinion, all NEW contracts in Care/NHS roles should already have the requirement for vaccination written into them - obviously, dealing with existing employees is more complex, and requires government action.  

    I think the new regulations must also apply in ALL situations where paid-for Care is being provided, including in people's own homes.  Otherwise, I can see many anti-vax carers who can no longer work in care homes will simply work instead for home-care companies.  Many of their clients are also very frail and vulnerable - My Mum was one of them.
    The care sector needs better regulation and better pay and conditions. It's in a mess...
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    edited June 2021

    Some of London's football clubs are joining the capital's vaccine roll-out programme.

    Chelsea, West Ham, Spurs and Charlton are allowing their stadiums to be used as vaccination clinics at the weekend.

    Most are focussing on first doses for younger people except Charlton which is largely for people aged 40 and over.

    West Ham's London Stadium at the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park, in north-east London, is the only centre that will not be open to walk-ins.

    • In north-east London, over 18s are invited to get their first dose on 19 June at West Ham's London Stadium for pre-booked appointments between 10:00 and 18:00 BST
    • In south-west London, Chelsea's ground will offer Pfizer vaccines to anyone eligible on 19 June between 10:00 and 19:30 BST
    • At Charlton's ground in south-east London, AstraZeneca vaccines will be on offer on 19 June to walk-ins between 08:00 and 20:00 BST. The club said the first 1,000 people to get vaccinated there would get a free ticket to a game
    • At Spurs' stadium in Tottenham, in north London, anyone aged 21 and over will be able to get a vaccine on 20 June between 10:00 and 18:00 BST.They are open for walk in and pre booked appointments.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-57497376

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    bobmunro said:
    Ross said:
    Legal challenge coming in 3,2,1….

    Although I hope to think that people working in those roles would be conscientious enough to get the jab in the first place.
    Do they not already have to have the yellow fever vaccine to work there and they have to declare their HIV status. Is this really any different?
    The difference is that the requirement for a COVID vaccination is not a current term or condition of their employment. 

    As I have repeatedly said, new starters no problem - any failure to comply would be a repudiatory breach of contract and a dismissal offence. They accepted the job on those terms. Not so with existing staff - you would offer them new terms and if they accept then fine, if they don’t then dismiss on the basis of fire/rehire. They could refuse the new terms and claim unfair dismissal (and would likely win). Doesn’t mean we don’t do it and I would suggest the government would need to underwrite the cost of employment tribunal claims.

    Should it be done? Yes. But there will be consequences, as above and a significant staff shortage - it is not exactly the easiest sector in which to recruit.


    I get what you are saying but I believe a good lawyer would argue that if any new or emerging health concerns arose (as COVID has) then the precedent is set with the existing terms for requirements to be added. But would be an interesting one.
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    Anyone know how to find the booking reference? I've lost mine for my second jab and have no emails or texts? Very strange.
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