Looks to me as if 2,500-3,000 of the tickets sold might be in the Covered End Lower or family stand, which isn’t great for the club in revenue terms.
Blimey mate . Why do you always put a bad spin on things ?
If the club has sold two thirds of tickets in that area it will only have brought in, say, £350k-£400k from a third of sales. People are focused on numbers sold but it’s revenue that matters to the club in the end.
I disagree to a certain extent - another £1m in ST sales is relatively unimportant to TS - it's the number, passion and volume of fans who help push the team onto success that he's looking for.
7,000+ sales after two weeks for a team in the third league must be wildly encouraging and pleasing to him, whatever individuals have paid. It's revenue and a guarantee of additional matchday income.
It's the 'hard core' who have now got to go out and help him market more ST sales over the summer. We've all done our part before.
We don’t know yet what that 7,000 means. It’s pretty much where we were at the end of May in previous L1 seasons 2009-12 IIRC. How does the late sale, Covid, takeover, securing “your” seat, play into all this? I don’t know. I’m optimistic and it is a good number but it is no guarantee of 10,000, never mind more. There isn’t enough information yet.
Traditionally most sales were in the week before the deadline. As no deadline has been given it’s hard to know what pattern we are seeing here.
Looks to me as if 2,500-3,000 of the tickets sold might be in the Covered End Lower or family stand, which isn’t great for the club in revenue terms.
Blimey mate . Why do you always put a bad spin on things ?
I’m not sure that looking at detail is “a bad spin”. I’ve seen all kinds of nonsense about the revenue likely to be raised from season tickets on here. I just try to inject some reality into it.
The very large spread of the adult prices - itself a hangover from previous regimes - skews the sales into low cost areas, which reduces the club’s income. If the club has sold two thirds of tickets in that area it will only have brought in, say, £350k-£400k from a third of sales. People are focused on numbers sold but it’s revenue that matters to the club in the end.
This price in the Covered End arose from a view that we needed more fans Immediately behind the goal - the question I would ask is whether the cost of that would be better spent on players.
And yes, I get that some people paying £260 wouldn’t buy at a higher price, but I doubt if they would all then spend zero on match tickets. The question is more whether big gap between £260 and £400 is dragging people who will buy anyway to the lowest price.
I think your missing the point. People aren’t celebrating the 7k sold because we’re pleased the club is making XX amount of money. We’re celebrating because it’s bums on seats and it’s support for the team.
I get where you’re coming from but I don’t think people care that much about how much money the club is making from this.
Of course most fans don’t care about the money the club loses, but ultimately it impacts on the team, which they do care about. It’s why we got relegated in 2020, after all.
It was always about striking a balance between attendance figures (ST and match day) and income back in the target 40k days.
The £260 tickets do encourage people to buy those and then walk up to the £400 seats. Same with the cheaper wing STs in the West and AC stand. The only real solutions to that are strict stewarding which is expensive and can cause crowd control issues, and piss off fans, much closer prices in the same stand or, ideally, full or nearly full stands.
While TS will want large crowds he won't be ignoring income and rightly so.
Raw numbers do also help with sponsors. Brand X want to know how many people will see their logo on our shirts/billboards/big screen.
So while Rick's comments can sound negative they are the reality of running a business.
The other side is that we're only two weeks in. Some people always buy nearer the season, others on pay day (previous launches were planned to hit end of the month pay days).
7k is a good start, if we can hit 9.6k (2011/12 figures) then we'll know that we are back on track in attendance terms.
Even at £400+ for a top price ST it’s still about £20 a game.
Compare that to other sport/leisure activities and it is excellent value.
The empty lower tier at the toolbox looks awful on TV, whereas CAFC players celebrating in front of a full covered end looks inviting.
I like the pricing structure, but would probably buy at any reasonable price.
There are hundreds of new dwellings around the O2 in the last year or so, and a fairly full stadium, with successful footy this season may just build our core support in the local area.
Houses and flats don’t attend football matches (except at Orient). The question is, who are these people, what prior allegiance do they have, are they even interested in third tier football?
The club talked a lot about Thames Gateway population growth from 2000 onwards, but we’re not somewhere like Grimsby or Burnley with a limited catchment. We have no problem with population density around the ground or catchment into Kent.
What we need to do is tell a better story (TS is part of that) and remove the obstacles to attendance (for example poor transport connections from many areas, unclear ticket offers that discourage unfamiliar fans, pricing disincentives, League One football generally).
Looks to me as if 2,500-3,000 of the tickets sold might be in the Covered End Lower or family stand, which isn’t great for the club in revenue terms.
Blimey mate . Why do you always put a bad spin on things ?
I’m not sure that looking at detail is “a bad spin”. I’ve seen all kinds of nonsense about the revenue likely to be raised from season tickets on here. I just try to inject some reality into it.
The very large spread of the adult prices - itself a hangover from previous regimes - skews the sales into low cost areas, which reduces the club’s income. If the club has sold two thirds of tickets in that area it will only have brought in, say, £350k-£400k from a third of sales. People are focused on numbers sold but it’s revenue that matters to the club in the end.
This price in the Covered End arose from a view that we needed more fans Immediately behind the goal - the question I would ask is whether the cost of that would be better spent on players.
And yes, I get that some people paying £260 wouldn’t buy at a higher price, but I doubt if they would all then spend zero on match tickets. The question is more whether big gap between £260 and £400 is dragging people who will buy anyway to the lowest price.
Can certainly say it had that effect with me. I was always going to buy but I couldn't justify an extra £140 for the sake of a seat a few m higher.
The lower price got me back in for a ST a few seasons ago, but about 5 games in I missed the Upper North, so upgraded both STs. The extra money is well worth it for the atmosphere imo.
Even at £400+ for a top price ST it’s still about £20 a game.
Compare that to other sport/leisure activities and it is excellent value.
The empty lower tier at the toolbox looks awful on TV, whereas CAFC players celebrating in front of a full covered end looks inviting.
I like the pricing structure, but would probably buy at any reasonable price.
There are hundreds of new dwellings around the O2 in the last year or so, and a fairly full stadium, with successful footy this season may just build our core support in the local area.
It would be great to encourage more locals to watch Charlton. I live in Woolwich and honestly I feel like Im the only Charlton in the area. Very rarely do I come across another fan on the street (at least when its obvious ie wearing a shirt or hat), and the place is full of people wearing Man U/Chelsea/Arsenal. It annoys me that they have a team on their doorstep that they are completely apathetic to.
I don't think £400 is that bad for the Covered upper, it's only £6 a game more than the lower but it's more comfortable, you get a better view and atmosphere if that's what you're after.
£17 a game for a supposed top L1 side isn't that unreasonable at all.
I am retired (but under 65) and my Son and I are over the moon at £260.00 in the lower CE. We still get the atmosphere and this price certainly made me rush to buy the tickets after the boycott ended !! Well done for making the £260 available - £11 per match AND discounts etc on top. Even a £5 handbook each!
In a world where everyone craves affordable football, we're bemoaning the fact we have cheap season tickets.
I don't think anyone is moaning about that at all.
The only thing i've seen mentioned is the big price gap between lower and upper tier. 260 is a very good price, but 400 for the upper tier is a big jump. I think 350 would be a fairer price for the upper tier.
In a world where everyone craves affordable football, we're bemoaning the fact we have cheap season tickets.
I don't think anyone is moaning about that at all.
The only thing i've seen mentioned is the big price gap between lower and upper tier. 260 is a very good price, but 400 for the upper tier is a big jump. I think 350 would be a fairer price for the upper tier.
There has been talk of increasing them from £260 to £350 to bring them more in line with the upper tier pricing because £260 tickets do nothing for the club's revenue. Unless I have misread it.
In a world where everyone craves affordable football, we're bemoaning the fact we have cheap season tickets.
I don't think anyone is moaning about that at all.
The only thing i've seen mentioned is the big price gap between lower and upper tier. 260 is a very good price, but 400 for the upper tier is a big jump. I think 350 would be a fairer price for the upper tier.
There has been talk of increasing them from £260 to £350 to bring them more in line with the upper tier pricing because £260 tickets do nothing for the club's revenue. Unless I have misread it.
I think the talk was of lowering upper tier to £350.
In a world where everyone craves affordable football, we're bemoaning the fact we have cheap season tickets.
I don't think anyone is moaning about that at all.
The only thing i've seen mentioned is the big price gap between lower and upper tier. 260 is a very good price, but 400 for the upper tier is a big jump. I think 350 would be a fairer price for the upper tier.
There has been talk of increasing them from £260 to £350 to bring them more in line with the upper tier pricing because £260 tickets do nothing for the club's revenue. Unless I have misread it.
I think the talk was of lowering upper tier to £350.
On the one hand you’ve got fans who are desperate to get back to watching live football and will pay whatever, within reason.
But you’ve also got those potentially affected financially by COVID (or are watching their finances) and so the lower priced tickets will be attractive.
Because of COVID and the ever changing situation, I do wonder if we’ll get an increased amount of “walk-ups” in the coming season, with people deciding whether to go to a game nearer the time depending on different factors.
In a world where everyone craves affordable football, we're bemoaning the fact we have cheap season tickets.
I don't think anyone is moaning about that at all.
The only thing i've seen mentioned is the big price gap between lower and upper tier. 260 is a very good price, but 400 for the upper tier is a big jump. I think 350 would be a fairer price for the upper tier.
There has been talk of increasing them from £260 to £350 to bring them more in line with the upper tier pricing because £260 tickets do nothing for the club's revenue. Unless I have misread it.
That's not what I am saying. I think the club was probably wise to use existing prices as a base for this very unpredictable situation, given the new ownership has no experience of how things actually work in a normal season. However, the price structure which evolved under Meire is a mess and it's likely that it will need to be unwound over time. The two lowest adult prices of £260 and £400 are too far apart and as most people know a number of fans use it to buy cheap tickets and sit in dearer seats. This will also be the case in the east stand to some extent with a spread from £400 to £575 across three blocks, while the £575 price in the centre of the upper west is just plain daft.
Leaving aside the cheating, the issue is the £260 price is so cheap it is drawing in some people who would otherwise pay £300/£350 for a slightly better seat. In my view, the £260 price actually reduces the club's revenue, because of this and because the people priced out at £300/£350 would not spend zero if they didn't buy a season ticket. Fans will always want cheap prices, but just as the club needs to understand that higher prices don't necessarily equal higher revenue, so we need to appreciate that underpricing has consequences too.
If the objective is to fill the lower Covered End for atmosphere reasons, there may be other ways to do that in future.
My best guess based on the sales figures is that we are on course for a five-figure season-ticket sale, which is great, but at the moment we don't have much more than we had in L1 under Duchatelet and we're still caught up in the mess he made of the price structure. 7,000 is a good number, but it's not a big number. Let's get to 10,000 (and higher) and then we're in business.
In a world where everyone craves affordable football, we're bemoaning the fact we have cheap season tickets.
I don't think anyone is moaning about that at all.
The only thing i've seen mentioned is the big price gap between lower and upper tier. 260 is a very good price, but 400 for the upper tier is a big jump. I think 350 would be a fairer price for the upper tier.
There has been talk of increasing them from £260 to £350 to bring them more in line with the upper tier pricing because £260 tickets do nothing for the club's revenue. Unless I have misread it.
That's not what I am saying. I think the club was probably wise to use existing prices as a base for this very unpredictable situation, given the new ownership has no experience of how things actually work in a normal season. However, the price structure which evolved under Meire is a mess and it's likely that it will need to be unwound over time. The two lowest adult prices of £260 and £400 are too far apart and as most people know a number of fans use it to buy cheap tickets and sit in dearer seats. This will also be the case in the east stand to some extent with a spread from £400 to £575 across three blocks, while the £575 price in the centre of the upper west is just plain daft.
Leaving aside the cheating, the issue is the £260 price is so cheap it is drawing in some people who would otherwise pay £300/£350 for a slightly better seat. In my view, the £260 price actually reduces the club's revenue, because of this and because the people priced out at £300/£350 would not spend zero if they didn't buy a season ticket. Fans will always want cheap prices, but just as the club needs to understand that higher prices don't necessarily equal higher revenue, so we need to appreciate that underpricing has consequences too.
If the objective is to fill the lower Covered End for atmosphere reasons, there may be other ways to do that in future.
My best guess based on the sales figures is that we are on course for a five-figure season-ticket sale, which is great, but at the moment we don't have much more than we had in L1 under Duchatelet and we're still caught up in the mess he made of the price structure. 7,000 is a good number, but it's not a big number. Let's get to 10,000 and then we're in business.
Yeah, I went back and re-read and see what you mean so apologies.
I agree to an extent, I imagine the club thought freezing tickets was the right thing to do as essentially, that's what we were paying for L1 football last season anyway.
Also, where do you start and end the decreasing of prices? If the upper tier of the Covered end is reduced to £350 we might be having the same conversation about people not renewing their £500 East or West stand tickets and instead moving to the Covered upper.
As I said, I really don't think £400 is unreasonable (I accept people will have dithering views on that and people's financial circumstances differ) and we also have the option of paying in instalments this year.
It's a start though - and we don't even know what the capacity of the ground will be come August.
TS hasn't been in charge for a year yet and it's still a learning curve. The £260 tickets are excellent value, but there are only a limited number available and selling them to ST holders is, to a certain extent, rewarding loyal fans.
I don't have a problem with that, but I strongly suspect the prices won't be so generous the following season in the Championship - and rightly so.
Just purchased 3 in WSB for me and two grandchildren can’t wait to get back. Did not buy any after first year under Roland so thank you Thomas for giving me the confidence in your ownership to buy season tickets again COYR
In a world where everyone craves affordable football, we're bemoaning the fact we have cheap season tickets.
I don't think anyone is moaning about that at all.
The only thing i've seen mentioned is the big price gap between lower and upper tier. 260 is a very good price, but 400 for the upper tier is a big jump. I think 350 would be a fairer price for the upper tier.
There has been talk of increasing them from £260 to £350 to bring them more in line with the upper tier pricing because £260 tickets do nothing for the club's revenue. Unless I have misread it.
That's not what I am saying. I think the club was probably wise to use existing prices as a base for this very unpredictable situation, given the new ownership has no experience of how things actually work in a normal season. However, the price structure which evolved under Meire is a mess and it's likely that it will need to be unwound over time. The two lowest adult prices of £260 and £400 are too far apart and as most people know a number of fans use it to buy cheap tickets and sit in dearer seats. This will also be the case in the east stand to some extent with a spread from £400 to £575 across three blocks, while the £575 price in the centre of the upper west is just plain daft.
Leaving aside the cheating, the issue is the £260 price is so cheap it is drawing in some people who would otherwise pay £300/£350 for a slightly better seat. In my view, the £260 price actually reduces the club's revenue, because of this and because the people priced out at £300/£350 would not spend zero if they didn't buy a season ticket. Fans will always want cheap prices, but just as the club needs to understand that higher prices don't necessarily equal higher revenue, so we need to appreciate that underpricing has consequences too.
If the objective is to fill the lower Covered End for atmosphere reasons, there may be other ways to do that in future.
My best guess based on the sales figures is that we are on course for a five-figure season-ticket sale, which is great, but at the moment we don't have much more than we had in L1 under Duchatelet and we're still caught up in the mess he made of the price structure. 7,000 is a good number, but it's not a big number. Let's get to 10,000 and then we're in business.
Yeah, I went back and re-read and see what you mean so apologies.
I agree to an extent, I imagine the club thought freezing tickets was the right thing to do as essentially, that's what we were paying for L1 football last season anyway.
Also, where do you start and end the decreasing of prices? If the upper tier of the Covered end is reduced to £350 we might be having the same conversation about people not renewing their £500 East or West stand tickets and instead moving to the Covered upper.
As I said, I really don't think £400 is unreasonable (I accept people will have dithering views on that and people's financial circumstances differ) and we also have the option of paying in instalments this year.
In fact, it's a price increase for most because these are not the rates most people will have paid last season or previously - they are, I think, without going back to check, a higher price point that was introduced after most tickets had been sold. So there is already a general ratchet up, but that's a pretty familiar tactic over the years.
In a world where everyone craves affordable football, we're bemoaning the fact we have cheap season tickets.
I don't think anyone is moaning about that at all.
The only thing i've seen mentioned is the big price gap between lower and upper tier. 260 is a very good price, but 400 for the upper tier is a big jump. I think 350 would be a fairer price for the upper tier.
There has been talk of increasing them from £260 to £350 to bring them more in line with the upper tier pricing because £260 tickets do nothing for the club's revenue. Unless I have misread it.
I think the talk was of lowering upper tier to £350.
Sell a high enough percentage of the match day seats to season ticket holders and supply and demand will mean the remaining ones, including for away fans, can start to be premium ticket prices. That will help balance the cheap STs.
Sell a high enough percentage of the match day seats to season ticket holders and supply and demand will mean the remaining ones, including for away fans, can start to be premium ticket prices. That will help balance the cheap STs.
That’s not the way you bring in new supporters. It’s how you put them off. Ultimately the best way to drive up revenue is to add to the fanbase, especially when you have as much spare capacity as we do.
Sell a high enough percentage of the match day seats to season ticket holders and supply and demand will mean the remaining ones, including for away fans, can start to be premium ticket prices. That will help balance the cheap STs.
That’s not the way you bring in new supporters. It’s how you put them off. Ultimately the best way to drive up revenue is to add to the fanbase, especially when you have as much spare capacity as we do.
We don’t need to bring in new supporters, we’ve already proven they are there. We need to get them coming along regularly, not occasionally.
Comments
I bet you spend the extra £140 in the ground throughout the season as well.
Traditionally most sales were in the week before the deadline. As no deadline has been given it’s hard to know what pattern we are seeing here.
The £260 tickets do encourage people to buy those and then walk up to the £400 seats. Same with the cheaper wing STs in the West and AC stand. The only real solutions to that are strict stewarding which is expensive and can cause crowd control issues, and piss off fans, much closer prices in the same stand or, ideally, full or nearly full stands.
While TS will want large crowds he won't be ignoring income and rightly so.
Raw numbers do also help with sponsors. Brand X want to know how many people will see their logo on our shirts/billboards/big screen.
So while Rick's comments can sound negative they are the reality of running a business.
The other side is that we're only two weeks in. Some people always buy nearer the season, others on pay day (previous launches were planned to hit end of the month pay days).
7k is a good start, if we can hit 9.6k (2011/12 figures) then we'll know that we are back on track in attendance terms.
What we need to do is tell a better story (TS is part of that) and remove the obstacles to attendance (for example poor transport connections from many areas, unclear ticket offers that discourage unfamiliar fans, pricing disincentives, League One football generally).
In a world where everyone craves affordable football, we're bemoaning the fact we have cheap season tickets.
£17 a game for a supposed top L1 side isn't that unreasonable at all.
The only thing i've seen mentioned is the big price gap between lower and upper tier. 260 is a very good price, but 400 for the upper tier is a big jump. I think 350 would be a fairer price for the upper tier.
On the one hand you’ve got fans who are desperate to get back to watching live football and will pay whatever, within reason.
But you’ve also got those potentially affected financially by COVID (or are watching their finances) and so the lower priced tickets will be attractive.
Because of COVID and the ever changing situation, I do wonder if we’ll get an increased amount of “walk-ups” in the coming season, with people deciding whether to go to a game nearer the time depending on different factors.
Leaving aside the cheating, the issue is the £260 price is so cheap it is drawing in some people who would otherwise pay £300/£350 for a slightly better seat. In my view, the £260 price actually reduces the club's revenue, because of this and because the people priced out at £300/£350 would not spend zero if they didn't buy a season ticket. Fans will always want cheap prices, but just as the club needs to understand that higher prices don't necessarily equal higher revenue, so we need to appreciate that underpricing has consequences too.
If the objective is to fill the lower Covered End for atmosphere reasons, there may be other ways to do that in future.
My best guess based on the sales figures is that we are on course for a five-figure season-ticket sale, which is great, but at the moment we don't have much more than we had in L1 under Duchatelet and we're still caught up in the mess he made of the price structure. 7,000 is a good number, but it's not a big number. Let's get to 10,000 (and higher) and then we're in business.
I agree to an extent, I imagine the club thought freezing tickets was the right thing to do as essentially, that's what we were paying for L1 football last season anyway.
Also, where do you start and end the decreasing of prices? If the upper tier of the Covered end is reduced to £350 we might be having the same conversation about people not renewing their £500 East or West stand tickets and instead moving to the Covered upper.
As I said, I really don't think £400 is unreasonable (I accept people will have dithering views on that and people's financial circumstances differ) and we also have the option of paying in instalments this year.
TS hasn't been in charge for a year yet and it's still a learning curve. The £260 tickets are excellent value, but there are only a limited number available and selling them to ST holders is, to a certain extent, rewarding loyal fans.
I don't have a problem with that, but I strongly suspect the prices won't be so generous the following season in the Championship