Blaming JJ and saying the players are good enough is just wrong in my opinion. There's only about 6 or 7 of our squad that are good enough for a promotion push. And as we are normally missing 2 or 3 of them with injuries JJ can only do his best with a woeful bunch of players. Has JJ made mistakes. Yes but he is still learning on the job. Give him a chance to rebuild in the summer and judge him next Christmas.
Blaming JJ and saying the players are good enough is just wrong in my opinion. There's only about 6 or 7 of our squad that are good enough for a promotion push. And as we are normally missing 2 or 3 of them with injuries JJ can only do his best with a woeful bunch of players. Has JJ made mistakes. Yes but he is still learning on the job. Give him a chance to rebuild in the summer and judge him next Christmas.
Blaming JJ and saying the players are good enough is just wrong in my opinion. There's only about 6 or 7 of our squad that are good enough for a promotion push. And as we are normally missing 2 or 3 of them with injuries JJ can only do his best with a woeful bunch of players. Has JJ made mistakes. Yes but he is still learning on the job. Give him a chance to rebuild in the summer and judge him next Christmas.
But we had a promotion push last season with more than 6 or 7 of them. We had a great run this season with them. Handled correctly these players are at least good enough to be challenging the play off places.
I’d give JJ the nod next season but would demand nothing less than top six at Christmas. My gut feeling is that something is wrong with our recruitment process. Every season now we’re slow out of the blocks and end up scratching around with our third or fourth choices the week before the window closes. Next season is huge for this club. We simply must climb out of this league. We’re rapidly becoming an established third tier club and that simply isn’t good enough. Chris Powell showed that getting the players you want in early pays enormous dividends . He did though have the advantage of Charlton being one of the most attractive clubs in league one for players. Every season we fuck up, we lose some of that shine.
It best be top six by Christmas as Tommy is on the record this week saying the aim is top two next season going up via automatic promotion.
Well I’m suggesting that it’s a bit daft demanding top two. I think most of us would expect top six for a club like Charlton in the third division.
I expect top two. Too many fans accept mediocrity.
I agree. And because of that, it’s why I’ve been banging the drum re: a very extensive overhaul. Given where we’ll finish this season and the fact we were ‘2 or 3 players off’ getting in the playoffs - think how many we are getting in the play offs next season, let alone the top two
We are only 3 players away from getting in the play offs. 100% guarantee that if we signed Mbappe, KDB and Kante we would be fine
Joking aside the last 18 months we have been on so many brilliant and awful runs, with largely the same players I honestly don't know how good, or not, a lot of our players are.
With less than a handful of exceptions I genuinely don't know. I would even question that it's possible that players like Stockley and Dobson (our two most important players) only look good because of the team they are playing in.
I still do believe though that this squad is worse than the sum of the parts and its more important that what we haven't got is addressed instead of x is an upgrade on y.
It shows when the captaincy is handed out by default. I can't remember who was the captain in the first half on the play off final, mainly because it could have been anyone of 3 or 4.
Whatever formation we play, and I actually don't think it's that important, we don't have:
Leadership Pace Strength Organisation Set piece delivery Goals
It's quite possible you could address that with 3 or 4 players and it would make a massive difference. Its also possible it would take 10-15 and you still wouldn't get it right.
I’d give JJ the nod next season but would demand nothing less than top six at Christmas. My gut feeling is that something is wrong with our recruitment process. Every season now we’re slow out of the blocks and end up scratching around with our third or fourth choices the week before the window closes. Next season is huge for this club. We simply must climb out of this league. We’re rapidly becoming an established third tier club and that simply isn’t good enough. Chris Powell showed that getting the players you want in early pays enormous dividends . He did though have the advantage of Charlton being one of the most attractive clubs in league one for players. Every season we fuck up, we lose some of that shine.
It best be top six by Christmas as Tommy is on the record this week saying the aim is top two next season going up via automatic promotion.
Well I’m suggesting that it’s a bit daft demanding top two. I think most of us would expect top six for a club like Charlton in the third division.
I expect top two. Too many fans accept mediocrity.
I agree. And because of that, it’s why I’ve been banging the drum re: a very extensive overhaul. Given where we’ll finish this season and the fact we were ‘2 or 3 players off’ getting in the playoffs - think how many we are getting in the play offs next season, let alone the top two
Agreed. This summer needs to be one of the biggest overhauls yet. No where near good enough this lot.
Blaming JJ and saying the players are good enough is just wrong in my opinion. There's only about 6 or 7 of our squad that are good enough for a promotion push. And as we are normally missing 2 or 3 of them with injuries JJ can only do his best with a woeful bunch of players. Has JJ made mistakes. Yes but he is still learning on the job. Give him a chance to rebuild in the summer and judge him next Christmas.
How long do you carry that on for? A lot of people wanted Bowyer to have 2 more windows. Despite only winning 6 in 26. The knives where out for Adkins after 3 games.
How many of yesterday's team played when we played Ipswich off the park?
I am not advocating he goes because it won't solve anything. Sacking Adkins didn't either, really, did it.
Blaming JJ and saying the players are good enough is just wrong in my opinion. There's only about 6 or 7 of our squad that are good enough for a promotion push. And as we are normally missing 2 or 3 of them with injuries JJ can only do his best with a woeful bunch of players. Has JJ made mistakes. Yes but he is still learning on the job. Give him a chance to rebuild in the summer and judge him next Christmas.
How long do you carry that on for? A lot of people wanted Bowyer to have 2 more windows. Despite only winning 6 in 26. The knives where out for Adkins after 3 games.
How many of yesterday's team played when we played Ipswich off the park?
I am not advocating he goes because it won't solve anything. Sacking Adkins didn't either, really, did it.
Totally agree with you. Chopping and changing the manager every six months is hardly a recipe for success. As I said I believe our squad is simply not good enough. If Sandgaard can provide the funds for a decent overhaul then JJ can be judged on results. I say give him this summer's window and judge him after 20 or so games next season.
the concern I have is if JJ is going to be so stubborn with the formation, that would indicate he’s going to recruit just for that. To me good players can play in any formation which would make our pool of choice larger. Looking at a player that’s only good at one thing and pinning your hopes on not having to change formation is a risky ploy I think. Jacko IMO needs to learn very quickly that the best managers can adapt and get a tune out of the players no matter the formation.
All this talk of give JJ the Summer to ger HIS own players in is delusional. However you look at it this current squad has decent players that have shown at previous clubs that they can perform. The fact is that they are not doing it here. Its the Managers job to make sure they do ! How long is it since we tried to play with the ball on the ground ? Teams constantly pass through us without any difficulty! I sit right behind the dugout and I can 100% say the message from the manager and coaches is to suppress the space, we basically try to play the whole game using only half of the pitch and just lob it high hoping someone can get on the end of it we are far to easy to play against with no options. I love JJ but at the end of the day this is his team and the way they are playing is his way
So you’re saying replace Jackson and keep this squad together? Let’s give Matthews, Gunter, Inniss etc new contracts and sign Leko, Lee and the other loanees permanently, all they need is a good manager?
We know this squad isn’t promotion quality, we had similar seasons in 10/11 and 16/17. If it was good enough we’d have several players who we’d be confident can step up to the Championship. We’re nowhere near that.
I'm not one for sentiment, and as mind numbingly bad as it is watching JJ put out 352 and constantly get undone behind RWB, he's not 100% to blame. We don't have the players for it, but it's the decided formation, we apparently have the basis of next season's squad/team so need to bed it in, it's missing the two most important parts - the wing backs, which leads to......
The recruitment, get the recruitment right and that'll go some way to improving on the absolute gash that's happening now, but that needs to happen first, there's a comment from the Sandgaard Q&A that's flown under the radar a bit “We got into it very late, and Igot into some very heated conversations with Nigel Adkins.” this was linked to us being slow in the window but given Sandgaard's other comments about his involvement in recruitment and making sure we get certain types of players - players that didn't match Adkins' comments about what's needed to exit league one upwards- then there could have been more to those heated conversations other than dragging heels.
Let Jackson and the football people recruit, let Jackson recruit the players he wants and needs, and if that means we have 6 "Stockley" aggressive lumps and only one 'baller then so be it.
Pick a bunch of footballers that look and sound good and hand them to the manager to "play football" and it won't matter if we sack Jackson now or next September, it'll be rinse and repeat.
Jackson seems to favour 3-5-2 which needs 2 wing backs to work. We have either full backs or wingers trying to play wing backs. So does Jackson deserve time with the players he wants for those positions or do you get rid because Jackson insists on using a formation without the right players??? Me? - I say give him a chance with the right players
All this talk of give JJ the Summer to ger HIS own players in is delusional. However you look at it this current squad has decent players that have shown at previous clubs that they can perform. The fact is that they are not doing it here. Its the Managers job to make sure they do ! How long is it since we tried to play with the ball on the ground ? Teams constantly pass through us without any difficulty! I sit right behind the dugout and I can 100% say the message from the manager and coaches is to suppress the space, we basically try to play the whole game using only half of the pitch and just lob it high hoping someone can get on the end of it we are far to easy to play against with no options. I love JJ but at the end of the day this is his team and the way they are playing is his way
So you’re saying replace Jackson and keep this squad together? Let’s give Matthews, Gunter, Inniss etc new contracts and sign Leko, Lee and the other loanees permanently, all they need is a good manager?
We know this squad isn’t promotion quality, we had similar seasons in 10/11 and 16/17. If it was good enough we’d have several players who we’d be confident can step up to the Championship. We’re nowhere near that.
No I'm not saying that at all mate. What I'm saying is that this squad is better than they have shown this season by a long way. I want JJ to succeed but I have seen with my own eyes that he seems totally devoid of any ideas other than the dross the team are playing. Not once have i seen anything discussed pitchside about making any changes in formation or playing style to counter what is happening on the pitch during a game. This is either naive, stupid or stubborn and none of those are good traits for a football manager. My point about it being his team and his responsibility for the performances stand. In any walk of life if people are not performing for whatever reason it is down to the line managers to resolve the issue, if they dont then it is their fault it's why they are in that position in the 1st place isnt it ?
Spending a Summer hiring players for a strict formation does feel a bit deja vu.
It's a risk TS needs/has weighed up. JJ needs to show he "has it".
Powell and Bowyer did the same, it’s normal to know what you’re working towards.
The issue is if it doesn’t work out another manager might want to use a completely different formation - but that’s got to be better than bringing in players without a formation and style in mind. That would suggest you don’t have a plan or know what your best team should look like.
Spending a Summer hiring players for a strict formation does feel a bit deja vu.
It's a risk TS needs/has weighed up. JJ needs to show he "has it".
Powell and Bowyer did the same, it’s normal to know what you’re working towards.
The issue is if it doesn’t work out another manager might want to use a completely different formation - but that’s got to be better than bringing in players without a formation and style in mind. That would suggest you don’t have a plan or know what your best team should look like.
Basically what we're seeing at the moment.
Adkins purchased players with the view of playing 4-3-3, Jackson is using them in a completely different manner
Jackson seems to favour 3-5-2 which needs 2 wing backs to work. We have either full backs or wingers trying to play wing backs. So does Jackson deserve time with the players he wants for those positions or do you get rid because Jackson insists on using a formation without the right players??? Me? - I say give him a chance with the right players
I say this too but my suspicion is that neither Jackson nor Adkins were given the right players - or at least the ones they wanted.
With the exception of Stockley (and possibly Fraser), they were given the players the Sandgaard family wanted.
There is no point recruiting players the manager won't play, yet we seem to make a habit of it.
No reason to think this will change much in the summer.
Blaming JJ and saying the players are good enough is just wrong in my opinion. There's only about 6 or 7 of our squad that are good enough for a promotion push. And as we are normally missing 2 or 3 of them with injuries JJ can only do his best with a woeful bunch of players. Has JJ made mistakes. Yes but he is still learning on the job. Give him a chance to rebuild in the summer and judge him next Christmas.
Jacko’s Points per game 31/22 would currently put us on 49.3 points which is 12th and a season ending total of 65
Not good enough.
If Jackson remains in charge, this only promises us mid table obscurity.
In fact no different to what we currently have.
So you are only judging coaches based on short term statistics?
It currently isn't good enough at all, we all know that, but considering how the season started, it is clear to me that the players are the main problem and a high proportion of them should leave the club.
Keep Jackson, and fully assess him a few weeks after the 2023 January transfer window.
If we are still hopeless and everything is more or less just as shit as it is now, then it will probably be time for him to go at that stage.
Jackson injected the squad with motivation when he replaced Adkins.
The players wanted to prove that Adkins was to blame for how lazy and shit they had been.
After some time, they showed their true colours again and returned to providing minimal effort.
Jackson was also tactically naive, which obviously hasn't helped, but he is still learning on the job and he is very keen to turn things around.
Sacking managers once every few months is not the Charlton way! It doesn't work for us and it goes against what we stand for. It doesn't help.
Reckon that's some trajectory after Saturday's performance; to be in the top 6 by Christmas and then go up automatically. Not just for the manager, for everyone involved and including TS.
Tempted as ever to trawl through the post Dagenham threads on here in 2011 and see if the same was being said about Powell and the club then
Why?
Just want to see if it's the same people with the same tune. I remember the doom and gloom around the end of that season, would Powell stay in his job, would we be any good again etc etc, it's the same on here now.
Blaming JJ and saying the players are good enough is just wrong in my opinion. There's only about 6 or 7 of our squad that are good enough for a promotion push. And as we are normally missing 2 or 3 of them with injuries JJ can only do his best with a woeful bunch of players. Has JJ made mistakes. Yes but he is still learning on the job. Give him a chance to rebuild in the summer and judge him next Christmas.
How long do you carry that on for? A lot of people wanted Bowyer to have 2 more windows. Despite only winning 6 in 26. The knives where out for Adkins after 3 games.
How many of yesterday's team played when we played Ipswich off the park?
I am not advocating he goes because it won't solve anything. Sacking Adkins didn't either, really, did it.
Totally agree with you. Chopping and changing the manager every six months is hardly a recipe for success. As I said I believe our squad is simply not good enough. If Sandgaard can provide the funds for a decent overhaul then JJ can be judged on results. I say give him this summer's window and judge him after 20 or so games next season.
If we finish below 16th this season I'd say sack him.
If he's here next season then we need to be top 6 at Christmas, or he's gone.
Tempted as ever to trawl through the post Dagenham threads on here in 2011 and see if the same was being said about Powell and the club then
Why?
Just want to see if it's the same people with the same tune. I remember the doom and gloom around the end of that season, would Powell stay in his job, would we be any good again etc etc, it's the same on here now.
I don't think it is / was anything personal. Reckon people look at the bigger picture when the Club is in this kind of position and decide where they think the problem is.
Tempted as ever to trawl through the post Dagenham threads on here in 2011 and see if the same was being said about Powell and the club then
Why?
Just want to see if it's the same people with the same tune. I remember the doom and gloom around the end of that season, would Powell stay in his job, would we be any good again etc etc, it's the same on here now.
I don't think it is / was anything personal. Reckon people look at the bigger picture when the Club is in this kind of position and decide where they think the problem is.
I think there is a marked difference in the situations. We knew then that there would be a completely different summer to the previous one. Mainly due to the change of ownership.
We also, then, had a handful of players that clearly weren't league 1 standard. Let alone promotion standard. We weren't under performing we were, quite frankly, a bit shit.
Yes you could say that was down to the manger or you could cut him some slack. Now whilst not promotion worthy we probably only have 2 or 3 players that aren't league 1 standard. If everybody left in the summer only probably 2 wouldn't be able to get a league 1 club next season, if they wanted, and one of them is nearly 40....
Powell also wasn't present during 2 years of largely dross before he got the job. There are dozens of reasons, or excuses, as to why but it is a fact we have been mainly awful for the last 2 years with 3 10 game purple patches.
Sacking Jackson, just Jackson, won't solve all the issues. Like sacking Adkins didn't. There is something seriously wrong somewhere and it's more than one person.
As soon as we stay up this season and it is confirmed, I personally believe it will be best to withdraw from panic that something terrible is going on at the club behind closed doors.
I think even roughly 20 years ago, Charlton probably always had a lot of directors box conflict with a whinge dimensional atmosphere of complaints.
The players only know about that stuff these days because of the digital age we live in. Other than that, I don't know how it would affect the players? They will only be crossing wires with the coaching staff.
The worry and the panic is a problem in itself.
It's always best to keep things simple.
Sign some good young players. Get rid of the dead wood and inject some belief into the squad.
Jackson is one of few people who will be taking his job very seriously. It's not just a pay day for him.
I hope he increases his tactical awareness in the summer. You can only do that when players are motivated and they give a shit.
There’s only one job at this time. Stay up. If we don’t I don’t think JJ will be here next season. If we do he should be allowed to create his new squad in the summer. Even then I think he’ll be on a short time frame to be in the forefront of the division next season before the club makes a decision about his longer term future.
Comments
There's only about 6 or 7 of our squad that are good enough for a promotion push.
And as we are normally missing 2 or 3 of them with injuries JJ can only do his best with a woeful bunch of players.
Has JJ made mistakes. Yes but he is still learning on the job.
Give him a chance to rebuild in the summer and judge him next Christmas.
Joking aside the last 18 months we have been on so many brilliant and awful runs, with largely the same players I honestly don't know how good, or not, a lot of our players are.
With less than a handful of exceptions I genuinely don't know. I would even question that it's possible that players like Stockley and Dobson (our two most important players) only look good because of the team they are playing in.
I still do believe though that this squad is worse than the sum of the parts and its more important that what we haven't got is addressed instead of x is an upgrade on y.
It shows when the captaincy is handed out by default. I can't remember who was the captain in the first half on the play off final, mainly because it could have been anyone of 3 or 4.
Whatever formation we play, and I actually don't think it's that important, we don't have:
Leadership
Pace
Strength
Organisation
Set piece delivery
Goals
It's quite possible you could address that with 3 or 4 players and it would make a massive difference. Its also possible it would take 10-15 and you still wouldn't get it right.
How many of yesterday's team played when we played Ipswich off the park?
I am not advocating he goes because it won't solve anything. Sacking Adkins didn't either, really, did it.
Chopping and changing the manager every six months is hardly a recipe for success.
As I said I believe our squad is simply not good enough.
If Sandgaard can provide the funds for a decent overhaul then JJ can be judged on results.
I say give him this summer's window and judge him after 20 or so games next season.
We know this squad isn’t promotion quality, we had similar seasons in 10/11 and 16/17. If it was good enough we’d have several players who we’d be confident can step up to the Championship. We’re nowhere near that.
The recruitment, get the recruitment right and that'll go some way to improving on the absolute gash that's happening now, but that needs to happen first, there's a comment from the Sandgaard Q&A that's flown under the radar a bit “We got into it very late, and I got into some very heated conversations with Nigel Adkins.” this was linked to us being slow in the window but given Sandgaard's other comments about his involvement in recruitment and making sure we get certain types of players - players that didn't match Adkins' comments about what's needed to exit league one upwards- then there could have been more to those heated conversations other than dragging heels.
Let Jackson and the football people recruit, let Jackson recruit the players he wants and needs, and if that means we have 6 "Stockley" aggressive lumps and only one 'baller then so be it.
Pick a bunch of footballers that look and sound good and hand them to the manager to "play football" and it won't matter if we sack Jackson now or next September, it'll be rinse and repeat.
So does Jackson deserve time with the players he wants for those positions or do you get rid because Jackson insists on using a formation without the right players???
Me? - I say give him a chance with the right players
My point about it being his team and his responsibility for the performances stand. In any walk of life if people are not performing for whatever reason it is down to the line managers to resolve the issue, if they dont then it is their fault it's why they are in that position in the 1st place isnt it ?
It's a risk TS needs/has weighed up. JJ needs to show he "has it".
The issue is if it doesn’t work out another manager might want to use a completely different formation - but that’s got to be better than bringing in players without a formation and style in mind. That would suggest you don’t have a plan or know what your best team should look like.
Adkins purchased players with the view of playing 4-3-3, Jackson is using them in a completely different manner
With the exception of Stockley (and possibly Fraser), they were given the players the Sandgaard family wanted.
There is no point recruiting players the manager won't play, yet we seem to make a habit of it.
No reason to think this will change much in the summer.
So you are only judging coaches based on short term statistics?
It currently isn't good enough at all, we all know that, but considering how the season started, it is clear to me that the players are the main problem and a high proportion of them should leave the club.
Keep Jackson, and fully assess him a few weeks after the 2023 January transfer window.
If we are still hopeless and everything is more or less just as shit as it is now, then it will probably be time for him to go at that stage.
Jackson injected the squad with motivation when he replaced Adkins.
The players wanted to prove that Adkins was to blame for how lazy and shit they had been.
After some time, they showed their true colours again and returned to providing minimal effort.
Jackson was also tactically naive, which obviously hasn't helped, but he is still learning on the job and he is very keen to turn things around.
Sacking managers once every few months is not the Charlton way! It doesn't work for us and it goes against what we stand for. It doesn't help.
I agree with the latter line.
If he's here next season then we need to be top 6 at Christmas, or he's gone.
We also, then, had a handful of players that clearly weren't league 1 standard. Let alone promotion standard. We weren't under performing we were, quite frankly, a bit shit.
Yes you could say that was down to the manger or you could cut him some slack. Now whilst not promotion worthy we probably only have 2 or 3 players that aren't league 1 standard. If everybody left in the summer only probably 2 wouldn't be able to get a league 1 club next season, if they wanted, and one of them is nearly 40....
Powell also wasn't present during 2 years of largely dross before he got the job. There are dozens of reasons, or excuses, as to why but it is a fact we have been mainly awful for the last 2 years with 3 10 game purple patches.
Sacking Jackson, just Jackson, won't solve all the issues. Like sacking Adkins didn't. There is something seriously wrong somewhere and it's more than one person.
I think even roughly 20 years ago, Charlton probably always had a lot of directors box conflict with a whinge dimensional atmosphere of complaints.
The players only know about that stuff these days because of the digital age we live in.
Other than that, I don't know how it would affect the players? They will only be crossing wires with the coaching staff.
The worry and the panic is a problem in itself.
It's always best to keep things simple.
Sign some good young players. Get rid of the dead wood and inject some belief into the squad.
Jackson is one of few people who will be taking his job very seriously. It's not just a pay day for him.
I hope he increases his tactical awareness in the summer. You can only do that when players are motivated and they give a shit.
Where those leave end up is always a good indicator, Oshilaja going to Burton for example.
If we don’t I don’t think JJ will be here next season. If we do he should be allowed to create his new squad in the summer.
Even then I think he’ll be on a short time frame to be in the forefront of the division next season before the club makes a decision about his longer term future.