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Charlton Women to rebrand as "Charlton Ladies" - turned down by FA (p28)
Comments
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Did you refer to the male players as “gentlemen” and wouldn’t it feel absurd to do so? I think it’s as simple as that.swordfish said:It's a shame that the achievement of incorporating the women's team into the club and turning them professional has been tarnished to some degree by this episode.
Hopefully TS will not now contest the decision, although he'd have to write off any cost already incurred in the rebranding, money which would have been better used for less misguided initiatives.
If he does contest it, he will have chosen the wrong issue to make a stand on imo due to the negative messaging surrounding it.
That said, tbh, I wasn't aware that the term was considered outdated before this came up, and have always begun my speeches "Ladies & Gentlemen," not realizing some might take offence. Not all though and my wife says she doesn't have an issue with it.
Perhaps it's more a generational thing. As one of my favourite characters from Heartbeat, Claude Jeremiah Greengrass used to say often, "I'm nearly an old age pensioner now you know!"
Doh, apologies for that. it's Senior Citizen now isn't it, or is that now 'so last year' too. I give up. It's all so confusing nowadays 🤔
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To answer your questions, no and yes, but I never would have in the first place and nothing has changed for them. For the womens teams though, many have changed their monicas to reflect the times we live in.Airman Brown said:
Did you refer to the male players as “gentlemen” and wouldn’t it feel absurd to do so? I think it’s as simple as that.swordfish said:It's a shame that the achievement of incorporating the women's team into the club and turning them professional has been tarnished to some degree by this episode.
Hopefully TS will not now contest the decision, although he'd have to write off any cost already incurred in the rebranding, money which would have been better used for less misguided initiatives.
If he does contest it, he will have chosen the wrong issue to make a stand on imo due to the negative messaging surrounding it.
That said, tbh, I wasn't aware that the term was considered outdated before this came up, and have always begun my speeches "Ladies & Gentlemen," not realizing some might take offence. Not all though and my wife says she doesn't have an issue with it.
Perhaps it's more a generational thing. As one of my favourite characters from Heartbeat, Claude Jeremiah Greengrass used to say often, "I'm nearly an old age pensioner now you know!"
Doh, apologies for that. it's Senior Citizen now isn't it, or is that now 'so last year' too. I give up. It's all so confusing nowadays 🤔0 -
Still think it’s all much ado about nothing, but hey ho I’m probably a dinosaur. Shouldn’t have got to this stage though, whole thing has seemed a big dollop of the unnecessary.6
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I think you’re confusing “I don’t care” with “it doesn’t matter”. Clearly those involved in the women’s game do care, as do a wider cohort of people, so it just seems like courtesy to me to give weight to their view. It’s not as if there is a group of women in the game lobbying for the change.AFKABartram said:Still think it’s all much ado about nothing, but hey ho I’m probably a dinosaur. Shouldn’t have got to this stage though, whole thing has seemed a big dollop of the unnecessary.19 -
Not sure how this works @Airman Brown, but as I was notified on this, which didn't relate to my last post, can I just say "you're not wrong and I quite agree." I hope that's made my position clear at least 🙂Airman Brown said:
I think you’re confusing “I don’t care” with “it doesn’t matter”. Clearly those involved in the women’s game do care, as do a wider cohort of people, so it just seems like courtesy to me to give weight to their view. It’s not as if there is a group of women in the game lobbying for the change.AFKABartram said:Still think it’s all much ado about nothing, but hey ho I’m probably a dinosaur. Shouldn’t have got to this stage though, whole thing has seemed a big dollop of the unnecessary.0 -
There's a perception within the women's game that "Ladies" implies an amateur team and "Women" implies a professional one, There isn't a simple relationship, and there's certainly no rule about it, and it's easy enough to find exceptions, but that's how people see it. So it's understandable why there would be objections, even if you wouldn't be able to find anything in a rule book to say it's wrong.
I do get what TS is trying to do underneath all this - "Charlton Athletic Women's FC" sounds like an independent club, which is what it used to be, and I can see why he'd want to make it clear that they're a full part of the club, not separate. And a change to "Charlton Athletic FC Women" is a bit too subtle for any sort of big announcement. It's just the name he chose has implications he may not have been aware of at the time, and there surely comes a time when the right thing to do is forget what the team's called and focus on the fact they're one of the top 20 women's teams in the country2 -
Not a dinosaur.AFKABartram said:Still think it’s all much ado about nothing, but hey ho I’m probably a dinosaur. Shouldn’t have got to this stage though, whole thing has seemed a big dollop of the unnecessary.
But you’re neither a woman, a lady or particularly interested in females who want to play football professionally.
Those three felt it definitely wasn’t ‘nothing’.
So maybe have a think about that.1 -
In other related news the museum has started working with the women's team to start collating a full statistical and historical record of the team.
Some eras are well covered but in others there are many gaps so work to do.13 -
Quite right.Airman Brown said:
I think you’re confusing “I don’t care” with “it doesn’t matter”. Clearly those involved in the women’s game do care, as do a wider cohort of people, so it just seems like courtesy to me to give weight to their view. It’s not as if there is a group of women in the game lobbying for the change.AFKABartram said:Still think it’s all much ado about nothing, but hey ho I’m probably a dinosaur. Shouldn’t have got to this stage though, whole thing has seemed a big dollop of the unnecessary.
The majority of last year's team wanted to stick as Charlton Women.
It does matter. The team work very hard in the community to promote the women's game.4 -
The change was needless and the FA have seen sense.Crusty54 said:
Quite right.Airman Brown said:
I think you’re confusing “I don’t care” with “it doesn’t matter”. Clearly those involved in the women’s game do care, as do a wider cohort of people, so it just seems like courtesy to me to give weight to their view. It’s not as if there is a group of women in the game lobbying for the change.AFKABartram said:Still think it’s all much ado about nothing, but hey ho I’m probably a dinosaur. Shouldn’t have got to this stage though, whole thing has seemed a big dollop of the unnecessary.
The majority of last year's team wanted to stick as Charlton Women.
It does matter. The team work very hard in the community to promote the women's game.
However what the current team think is irrelevant. If the current first team (men) wanted to change our name to Charlton Reds they would quite rightly called out on it0 - Sponsored links:
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I agree with this view wholeheartedly. Life is full of issues and concepts that not everyone can fully understand or empathise with due to constraints of time, learned experience, access to knowledge, personal bias, etc.Airman Brown said:
I think you’re confusing “I don’t care” with “it doesn’t matter”. Clearly those involved in the women’s game do care, as do a wider cohort of people, so it just seems like courtesy to me to give weight to their view. It’s not as if there is a group of women in the game lobbying for the change.AFKABartram said:Still think it’s all much ado about nothing, but hey ho I’m probably a dinosaur. Shouldn’t have got to this stage though, whole thing has seemed a big dollop of the unnecessary.
However as a general principle if you have a group of people who are part of and inherently close to an issue and they think X (and one is not part of that group; and there is pretty much no voice from that group or any other group saying it shouldn't be X), why in God's name would anyone go to the trouble to try to assert that X should be Y?
Live and let live.0 -
Considering that the women's team were against the name change it should never have got this far.
A totally pointless thing to try and do.
Correct decision has been made.3 -
I am in complete shock and find this difficult to believe.
Are people saying the EFL have made a decision?3 -
Not sure how Airman Brown got hold of letter that was leaked to the journalist Tash Everitt but here it is
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Unless I’m missing something here but why is it addressed to Raelynn Maloney?6
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Matt Wright made the same point.2
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Seems like Airman has missed the more interesting aspect of the letter. Raelynn making the request rather than an actual employee?
Can't believe they actually tried to change the name still after the squad said they didn't want it.0 -
A pure guess on my part, but designated as a named authority within the articles for the Women's Football Club to act on their behalf, otherwise it surely wasn't a valid request.Scoham said:Matt Wright made the same point.0 - Sponsored links:
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Good.shirty5 said:
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It was so much simpler when the FA had banned them.swordfish said:
To answer your questions, no and yes, but I never would have in the first place and nothing has changed for them. For the womens teams though, many have changed their monicas to reflect the times we live in.Airman Brown said:
Did you refer to the male players as “gentlemen” and wouldn’t it feel absurd to do so? I think it’s as simple as that.swordfish said:It's a shame that the achievement of incorporating the women's team into the club and turning them professional has been tarnished to some degree by this episode.
Hopefully TS will not now contest the decision, although he'd have to write off any cost already incurred in the rebranding, money which would have been better used for less misguided initiatives.
If he does contest it, he will have chosen the wrong issue to make a stand on imo due to the negative messaging surrounding it.
That said, tbh, I wasn't aware that the term was considered outdated before this came up, and have always begun my speeches "Ladies & Gentlemen," not realizing some might take offence. Not all though and my wife says she doesn't have an issue with it.
Perhaps it's more a generational thing. As one of my favourite characters from Heartbeat, Claude Jeremiah Greengrass used to say often, "I'm nearly an old age pensioner now you know!"
Doh, apologies for that. it's Senior Citizen now isn't it, or is that now 'so last year' too. I give up. It's all so confusing nowadays 🤔3 -
I'm sorry but I don't know if you're being serious. If you are, I strongly disagree.AddicksAddict said:
It was so much simpler when the FA had banned them.swordfish said:
To answer your questions, no and yes, but I never would have in the first place and nothing has changed for them. For the womens teams though, many have changed their monicas to reflect the times we live in.Airman Brown said:
Did you refer to the male players as “gentlemen” and wouldn’t it feel absurd to do so? I think it’s as simple as that.swordfish said:It's a shame that the achievement of incorporating the women's team into the club and turning them professional has been tarnished to some degree by this episode.
Hopefully TS will not now contest the decision, although he'd have to write off any cost already incurred in the rebranding, money which would have been better used for less misguided initiatives.
If he does contest it, he will have chosen the wrong issue to make a stand on imo due to the negative messaging surrounding it.
That said, tbh, I wasn't aware that the term was considered outdated before this came up, and have always begun my speeches "Ladies & Gentlemen," not realizing some might take offence. Not all though and my wife says she doesn't have an issue with it.
Perhaps it's more a generational thing. As one of my favourite characters from Heartbeat, Claude Jeremiah Greengrass used to say often, "I'm nearly an old age pensioner now you know!"
Doh, apologies for that. it's Senior Citizen now isn't it, or is that now 'so last year' too. I give up. It's all so confusing nowadays 🤔1 -
Can’t properly comment as a bloke but it does strike me that England Lionesses isn’t a great name either as society and football has moved on. Think we still have a derivative of Doncaster Belles too.There was obviously zero negative connotation in mind when it was suggested as why else invest so much in the team.I assume if some of the team expressed a view they didn’t like then also some did not so it’s not clear cut. So too easy to say it was always an inappropriate choice to go with.Maybe it was just seen as a branding thing / way to differentiate in some way but which for whatever reason the authority don’t want to support.Hopefully now there is no need to make much more of the story as a decision is confirmed.0
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The thing that surprises me about this is we were told it was part of celebrating the team being incorporated into the main club, instead of being a separate legal entity. But changing from WFC to LFC doesn't actually do that - it's still a name you'd adopt if you were technically a separate club. So this is all a bit odd.0
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AddicksAddict said:
It was so much simpler when the FA had banned them.swordfish said:
To answer your questions, no and yes, but I never would have in the first place and nothing has changed for them. For the womens teams though, many have changed their monicas to reflect the times we live in.Airman Brown said:
Did you refer to the male players as “gentlemen” and wouldn’t it feel absurd to do so? I think it’s as simple as that.swordfish said:It's a shame that the achievement of incorporating the women's team into the club and turning them professional has been tarnished to some degree by this episode.
Hopefully TS will not now contest the decision, although he'd have to write off any cost already incurred in the rebranding, money which would have been better used for less misguided initiatives.
If he does contest it, he will have chosen the wrong issue to make a stand on imo due to the negative messaging surrounding it.
That said, tbh, I wasn't aware that the term was considered outdated before this came up, and have always begun my speeches "Ladies & Gentlemen," not realizing some might take offence. Not all though and my wife says she doesn't have an issue with it.
Perhaps it's more a generational thing. As one of my favourite characters from Heartbeat, Claude Jeremiah Greengrass used to say often, "I'm nearly an old age pensioner now you know!"
Doh, apologies for that. it's Senior Citizen now isn't it, or is that now 'so last year' too. I give up. It's all so confusing nowadays 🤔Having looked further up the thread now, it seems you were taking a sarcastic side swipe at me for my views which have inflamed you. All I’m saying is that preferring the term women as opposed to ladies is a generationally driven change in outlook from the younger ones who are less comfortable with the latter being assigned to describe them. That’s their prerogative and hence why it was wrong to pursue this initiative and impose it on women who weren’t happy with it. I don't see anything controversial in that.
That said, I do think there are some on here who maybe overstating how offensive the term is, one contributor even posting that, in modern speak, the term Lady may be viewed as elitist, racist, derisory and sexist. Surely it’s not as bad as that is it? Please let me know if you agree that it is, preferably the women contributors on here.
'The Lady' magazine sells in the order of 25k copies a month and has a readership comprising many who are also in the Women’s Institute, staunch defenders of women’s rights and sexual equality. I can’t recall seeing news of their offices being stormed by outraged readers demanding the name be changed, but I stand to be corrected. One thing I'm sure of is that there are still plenty of women who are perfectly happy to be associated with the term. Some prefer it my experience, so don’t let’s pretend it’s universally unpopular across all ages.
Perhaps you’re more annoyed with me because I’m seeing the positives of TS’s involvement in the women’s team as outweighing this issue, which has been a PR disaster. If you want to use it as a stick to beat him with, that’s fine and I agree, but make sure you have the stick in the right proportions because, so far in this regard, his involvement overall has been a force for good in my opinion.
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Whilst I’m not particularly fussed about the name it is something Thomas was pushing for.
Another thing I believe he is pushing for is to stop all the leaks from the club
The fact this letter managed to get into the hands of a reporter, moreover the particular reporter it fell into the hands of, is potentially going to seriously piss him off.1 -
Are you suggesting a trap ? 🙂Swisdom said:Whilst I’m not particularly fussed about the name it is something Thomas was pushing for.
Another thing I believe he is pushing for is to stop all the leaks from the club
The fact this letter managed to get into the hands of a reporter, moreover the particular reporter it fell into the hands of, is potentially going to seriously piss him off.
some more drama coming up if so.To be fair leaks to the press whatever the topic and indeed whatever the industry must be frustrating.0 -
Do you believe the theory that certain things have been leaked on purpose to identify who’s passing information on?Swisdom said:Whilst I’m not particularly fussed about the name it is something Thomas was pushing for.
Another thing I believe he is pushing for is to stop all the leaks from the club
The fact this letter managed to get into the hands of a reporter, moreover the particular reporter it fell into the hands of, is potentially going to seriously piss him off.
In the last few months we’ve been about to sign Bostock and Marquis, the Spain trip was cancelled, TS hadn’t paid rent for months and he’s been looking to sell the club.1 -
Why would that leak re this letter come from the club? It might have been a leak from the FA?Swisdom said:Whilst I’m not particularly fussed about the name it is something Thomas was pushing for.
Another thing I believe he is pushing for is to stop all the leaks from the club
The fact this letter managed to get into the hands of a reporter, moreover the particular reporter it fell into the hands of, is potentially going to seriously piss him off.1
