Thomas, I hope you don't mind me telling you that I think this is a terrible decision and unbecoming of someone who is, undoubtedly, a very successful businessboy.
A lot of men showing themselves up on this thread. You haven't got to understand why it's offensive, and it doesn't have to matter to you.
This is absolutely true but by the same token, when there are things such as:
"Ladies and gentlemen" "Ladies first" He's a bit of a 'ladies man' Here in Dubai we have 'ladies nights' where they get free drinks.
Never once have i heard a female offended by those so it's not beyond the realms of impossibility for some people to wonder what all the fuss is about.
A lot of men showing themselves up on this thread. You haven't got to understand why it's offensive, and it doesn't have to matter to you.
This is absolutely true but by the same token, when there are things such as:
"Ladies and gentlemen" "Ladies first" He's a bit of a 'ladies man' Here in Dubai we have 'ladies nights' where they get free drinks.
Never once have a heard a female offended by those so it's not beyond the realms of impossibility for some people to wonder what all the fuss is about.
*runs for cover*
True. I think that asking if/why this particular instance is upsetting is fair... BUT by the same token, having had multiple confirmations that it IS should really be the end of it.
I personally don't give a shit either way. I support Charlton mens team. If I happen to see that the "Ladies" team won 10-0, my reaction is the same to them losing 10-0. I can't understand why people think you support the mens team, so therefore have some feeling towards the women's game. I find it annoying when the media keep intergrating it all under the same banner and injecting their news into the general mens football articles and this includes clubs doing it. I really enjoy listening to Charlton Live podcast, but every now and then they start banging on about the womens team and playing interviews of players and managers. It's not what their audience is there for. Let them have their own pod. I know I'll probably get slated for saying this, but I'll be shocked if even 5% of the users here bother following the girls game. To me, Women's football to a different sport that I have no interest in.............
This. I have no interest in women's football whatsoever.
Edit - but TS doing something that the players of either gender don't agree with is asking for problems.
What is the incessant nonsense any decision you disagree with has to be an ego based or vanity exercise? Do you actually understand what those terms mean?
On what possible basis does owning a struggling South London Women’s football team register as ego based or a vanity exercise? How many of you without looking it up could name the previous owner. Certainly raised his profile.
Where does his worthy participation register on the scale of public acclaim?
How does it compare with being the owner of a NASDAQ quoted company in the world TS inhabits? Let’s see blue chip investors in a major US Company or 300 spectators in a wooden hut in South East London?
Quarterly calls to Market Analysts concerning $30m revenues or challenges over 50 comments on a football message board.
Have any of you asked him why the change? So invested in the issue how many have despatched an email to the club? No, if I see him I’ll ask him. Not good enough. If it matters so much, write to him? Can’t be bothered? No thought not.
Or maybe just bollocks to that - You don’t get it so you make up your own answers and whinge on a message board.
What entitlement do you have in any of this? How many of us on here make a single contribution to the Women’s Club?
Is there a Women’s section in the Museum?
What does this cover? What the history between 2000-2007 when we we disbanded the club? That history? Any pictures of supporters protesting at Greenwich Town Hall in 2007? How many references are there in Colin Cameron’s records or Tom Morris photographs?
Can’t recall seeing any of it on here.
How many shared experiences covering the Women’s game can you share?
Ah the old UK Managing Director, if only he had bought the ground wiser head « lobbing bricks from the sidelines » bollocks again. What like Peter Varney who, after acquiring A Women’s club in 2000 via a hostile takeover, disbanded it in 2007 due to it being uneconomic? That Peter Varney? That wiser head.
Or the cabal of Managing Directors and Executives who over 14yrs managed to throw away in excess of £100m, the ones who facilitated separation of the club and ground and sold it to property investors. Those UK Directors? How are those liens working out guys?
Did I understand the challenges at the time? 100% but shall we ask Eniola Aluko and Casey Stone about 2007?
The message here. Thomas just gives us your money and fuck off.
I tell you what Thomas just do that. Keep your money and shut the whole thing down. Let the women’s players contracts run down. Cut your investment. Reallocate the new training and medical facilities and in 6 months no more than 20 people one on here will give it a second thought.
The Womens Team? Let’s all return to the days of whatever happened to that?
How many other prospective investors do you think have given the women’s game a second thought?
No, I am not in favour of the proposed change because I believe it it is very questionable under Equal Opportunities but the faux outrage on here borders between laughable and pathetic.
How many on here were bothered about the Women’s Club before TS bought it?
How many were clamouring for the Women’s Team to be brought under common ownership with the main club?
How many were demanding it be turned into a professional organisation? How many were demanding improved and training facilities, medical staff?
Strange during the men’s close season recruitment how many references were there here registering « Why is he is wasting his money on the Women’s team nobody gives a shit, he should be competing with Ipswich to bring in new players? »
So just who is funding all of this? Are you funding any of this? Please, please, please tell me the last contribution you made to the Women’s club?
The current staff? How many of them wore the Charlton shirt last year?
Are they getting paid?
Is he changing the club colours?
Is he dropping the Charlton Brand?
Is he relocating the business?
If this were a biscuit factory and the current staff were told the owner had decided to change the brand what say do you the think employees would have in that?
Ah forgot but this is football so it is different. It’s part of the community. What part of the community is that then? What because we stepped in with a hostile takeover of a Croydon Women’s operation for 7yrs. Was that a vanity exercise? Croydon was its 3rd iteration since the clubs original inception.
Oh you mean the CACT. The CACT relationship TS has reinvigorated after years of neglect. That community? It’s still Charlton.
Indeed were it not on Charlton TV how many on here will have watched even 10 of the women’s games in the last 5 seasons?
How many have tuned into the Charltons Women’s Matches this season?
Who even created Charlton TV which gives them air time?
Let’s hear your plans to grow the brand? Drive new revenues? Sell more tickets? Attend more games? What’s that? You don’t have any? Why’s that? Out of sight out of mind perhaps?
But he will damage the branding? For who? What the 300 people who in reality might give a shit?
Who on here had the Women’s Team on their Fans Forum Agenda tonight before this article?
At the very least he has gained people’s attention.
So by all means challenge the opinions but for gods sake keep these ludicrous character assassinations and frankly irrelevant nonsensical business references out of it. The stench of hypocrisy and double standards is over powering.
Personally TS I hope you stick with the opportunity. The Women’s game needs as much investment as it can get under whatever brand.
No, if it is true, I don’t agree with your decision. I can reference certain aspects of the work environment that present challenges to the rebranding but I don’t know how it fits with your business thinking. Guess what? No ego, no vanity just the same business debate I had for 40yrs.
What you mean having different ideas, different perceptions and challenging the status quo is healthy? Who’d have thought it?
A lot of men showing themselves up on this thread. You haven't got to understand why it's offensive, and it doesn't have to matter to you.
This is absolutely true but by the same token, when there are things such as:
"Ladies and gentlemen" "Ladies first" He's a bit of a 'ladies man' Here in Dubai we have 'ladies nights' where they get free drinks.
Never once have a heard a female offended by those so it's not beyond the realms of impossibility for some people to wonder what all the fuss is about.
*runs for cover*
bitches be trippin' if they think they're getting equality in the work place AND through a door before me
What does this cover? What the history between 2000-2007 when we we disbanded the club? That history? Any pictures of supporters protesting at Greenwich Town Hall in 2007? How many references are there in Colin Cameron’s records or Tom Morris photographs?
Can’t recall seeing any of it on here.
How many shared experiences covering the Women’s game can you share?
Ah the old UK Managing Director, if only he had bought the ground wiser head « lobbing bricks from the sidelines » bollocks again. What like Peter Varney who, after acquiring A Women’s club in 2000 via a hostile takeover, disbanded it in 2007 due to it being uneconomic? That Peter Varney? That wiser head.
Or the cabal of Managing Directors and Executives who over 14yrs managed to throw away in excess of £100m, the ones who facilitated separation of the club and ground and sold it to property investors. Those UK Directors? How are those liens working out guys?
Did I understand the challenges at the time? 100% but shall we ask Eniola Aluko and Casey Stone about 2007?
The message here. Thomas just gives us your money and fuck off. [snip]
If this were a biscuit factory and the current staff were told the owner had decided to change the brand what say do you the think employees would have in that?
Ah forgot but this is football so it is different. It’s part of the community. What part of the community is that then? What because we stepped in with a hostile takeover of a Croydon Women’s operation for 7yrs. Was that a vanity exercise? Croydon was its 3rd iteration since the clubs original inception.
Oh you mean the CACT. The CACT relationship TS has reinvigorated after years of neglect. That community? It’s still Charlton.
[snip]
We had a functioning board of directors in 2007 which was subsidising the women's team and made the decision to cut the women's funding. It's strange you want to personalise it to the chief executive. I have no idea what his view was, but the board are the responsible body, just as I have to keep reminding people that councillors, not officers, are accountable for decisions of the council I sit on, not employees.
In this case, the reason this issue is significant is that it was always going to surface in the national press and damage both TS's reputation and Charlton's as a whole. For that reason the many people who knew the background, including the local media and supporters' trust, did not report it. People with a proper role in doing so tried to engage constructively to no effect.
However, TS's actions last week in consulting the players and then telling them he was disregarding their view anyway appears to have created so much internal unrest that it has led to the national publicity nobody wanted.
You can, if you like, believe that all is well and this is just bitter ex-employees throwing bricks. However, this story is coming from people inside the club.
His justification is that he wants a fresh start - a rebrand. I would have thought he has achieved that, but perhaps not in the way he intended.
Totally bizarre move. I'd have expected something better from the owner than not listening to any women involved (and he's not the only one as some of the comments above show). If your language isn't inclusive, you're not showing that you are inclusive. Most businesses employ specialists to make sure they don't mess this sort of thing up. At best this looks unprofessional and will attract ridicule. But hey, at least he'll have the support of some of the people who don't like women's football, top notch marketing strategy.
If I were you I’d have spent less time writing your irrelevant drivel and more time trying to understand the issue
All I've seen so far (admittedly I've only scanned the thread) is that it's not a wanted change and that it causes offense but it's not clear to me why. Could you could explain the issue, preferably succinctly.
Writing as a season tickets holder for both men and women's teams.
Firstly I am surprised why Thomas has made this move and would like to understand his thinking before making a real judgement.
However I would like to make a few points 1. it seems to go against what the way the industry is moving (it is called the women's league) 2. why can they just not compete as CAFC 3. the last people who should decide are the players. Consulted maybe but few of them will be here in 5 years. 4. Despite all the comments I cannot see why ladies is insulting, but perhaps this is an age thing.
What does this cover? What the history between 2000-2007 when we we disbanded the club? That history? Any pictures of supporters protesting at Greenwich Town Hall in 2007? How many references are there in Colin Cameron’s records or Tom Morris photographs?
Can’t recall seeing any of it on here.
How many shared experiences covering the Women’s game can you share?
Ah the old UK Managing Director, if only he had bought the ground wiser head « lobbing bricks from the sidelines » bollocks again. What like Peter Varney who, after acquiring A Women’s club in 2000 via a hostile takeover, disbanded it in 2007 due to it being uneconomic? That Peter Varney? That wiser head.
Or the cabal of Managing Directors and Executives who over 14yrs managed to throw away in excess of £100m, the ones who facilitated separation of the club and ground and sold it to property investors. Those UK Directors? How are those liens working out guys?
Did I understand the challenges at the time? 100% but shall we ask Eniola Aluko and Casey Stone about 2007?
The message here. Thomas just gives us your money and fuck off. [snip]
If this were a biscuit factory and the current staff were told the owner had decided to change the brand what say do you the think employees would have in that?
Ah forgot but this is football so it is different. It’s part of the community. What part of the community is that then? What because we stepped in with a hostile takeover of a Croydon Women’s operation for 7yrs. Was that a vanity exercise? Croydon was its 3rd iteration since the clubs original inception.
Oh you mean the CACT. The CACT relationship TS has reinvigorated after years of neglect. That community? It’s still Charlton.
[snip]
We had a functioning board of directors in 2007 which was subsidising the women's team and made the decision to cut the women's funding. It's strange you want to personalise it to the chief executive. I have no idea what his view was, but the board are the responsible body, just as I have to keep reminding people that councillors, not officers, are accountable for decisions of the council I sit on, not employees.
In this case, the reason this issue is significant is that it was always going to surface in the national press and damage both TS's reputation and Charlton's as a whole. For that reason the many people who knew the background, including the local media and supporters' trust, did not report it. People with a proper role in doing so tried to engage constructively to no effect.
However, TS's actions last week in consulting the players and then telling them he was disregarding their view anyway appears to have created so much internal unrest that it has led to the national publicity nobody wanted.
You can, if you like, believe that all is well and this is just bitter ex-employees throwing bricks. However, this story is coming from people inside the club.
His justification is that he wants a fresh start - a rebrand. I would have thought he has achieved that, but perhaps not in the way he intended.
If I were you I’d have spent less time writing your irrelevant drivel and more time trying to understand the issue
All I've seen so far (admittedly I've only scanned the thread) is that it's not a wanted change and that it causes offense but it's not clear to me why. Could you could explain the issue, preferably succinctly.
Grapevine has written very eloquently and persuasively in the past in favour of women's rights and against workplace harassment. But his greater fealty lies elsewhere...woe betide anybody who steps in the path of structured corporate governance
What does this cover? What the history between 2000-2007 when we we disbanded the club? That history? Any pictures of supporters protesting at Greenwich Town Hall in 2007? How many references are there in Colin Cameron’s records or Tom Morris photographs?
I could have replied with you own retort about "Have any of you asked him why the change? So invested in the issue how many have despatched an email to the club? No, if I see him I’ll ask him. Not good enough. If it matters so much, write to him? Can’t be bothered? No thought not."
But I won't.
Yes, there is a women's section in the museum. We have shirts, medals and trophies on prominent display. Have you visited the museum? And yes, we tweeted images of the Women's FA Cup and League Cup final shirts that were donated this year. We were delighted to have them. We've also worked with Steve Adamson, the General Manager, to secure some important other shirts a few years back and are currently working with the women's team secretary to capture the statistical history of women's team, some of which we already have but there are gaps.
As it happens, the current women's team have visited the museum as part of their induction and the history of the women's team, including the two day disbandment, is covered in the "Welcome to the Addicks" key point history we prepared for them and for the men and youth teams.
A lot of men showing themselves up on this thread. You haven't got to understand why it's offensive, and it doesn't have to matter to you.
This is absolutely true but by the same token, when there are things such as:
"Ladies and gentlemen" "Ladies first" He's a bit of a 'ladies man' Here in Dubai we have 'ladies nights' where they get free drinks.
Never once have a heard a female offended by those so it's not beyond the realms of impossibility for some people to wonder what all the fuss is about.
*runs for cover*
True. I think that asking if/why this particular instance is upsetting is fair... BUT by the same token, having had multiple confirmations that it IS should really be the end of it.
Not sure I agree. Just saying "because it is", is like saying "Sandgaard can change the name", just because he can.
Without knowing the reasoning both can seem a bit strange.
A lot of men showing themselves up on this thread. You haven't got to understand why it's offensive, and it doesn't have to matter to you.
Incorrect. Understanding why something is offensive can help reduce further misunderstandings and help people to grow.
It does matter to understand change.
Language changes and you need to move with the times. If you want to use language on behalf of a group that you are not part of it makes sense to consult with them rather than make a decision unilaterally - that just seems misguided.
If you refer to disabled people you wouldn't use the word 'handicapped' anymore.
A lot of men showing themselves up on this thread. You haven't got to understand why it's offensive, and it doesn't have to matter to you.
Incorrect. Understanding why something is offensive can help reduce further misunderstandings and help people to grow.
It does matter to understand change.
But many aren't looking to understand and even when it is explained just dismiss or ignore the explanation.
Other just take the stance that it was OK when they were young or is OK in an totally different context so it's can't be wrong in this context or in 2021.
Grapevine has written very eloquently and persuasively in the past in favour of women's rights and against workplace harassment. But his greater fealty lies elsewhere...woe betide anybody who steps in the path of structured corporate governance
Comments
"Ladies and gentlemen"
"Ladies first"
He's a bit of a 'ladies man'
Here in Dubai we have 'ladies nights' where they get free drinks.
Never once have i heard a female offended by those so it's not beyond the realms of impossibility for some people to wonder what all the fuss is about.
*runs for cover*
On what possible basis does owning a struggling South London Women’s football team register as ego based or a vanity exercise? How many of you without looking it up could name the previous owner. Certainly raised his profile.
Where does his worthy participation register on the scale of public acclaim?
How does it compare with being the owner of a NASDAQ quoted company in the world TS inhabits? Let’s see blue chip investors in a major US Company or 300 spectators in a wooden hut in South East London?
Quarterly calls to Market Analysts concerning $30m revenues or challenges over 50 comments on a football message board.
Have any of you asked him why the change? So invested in the issue how many have despatched an email to the club? No, if I see him I’ll ask him. Not good enough. If it matters so much, write to him? Can’t be bothered? No thought not.
Or maybe just bollocks to that - You don’t get it so you make up your own answers and whinge on a message board.
What entitlement do you have in any of this? How many of us on here make a single contribution to the Women’s Club?
What does this cover? What the history between 2000-2007 when we we disbanded the club? That history? Any pictures of supporters protesting at Greenwich Town Hall in 2007? How many references are there in Colin Cameron’s records or Tom Morris photographs?
Can’t recall seeing any of it on here.
How many shared experiences covering the Women’s game can you share?
Or the cabal of Managing Directors and Executives who over 14yrs managed to throw away in excess of £100m, the ones who facilitated separation of the club and ground and sold it to property investors. Those UK Directors? How are those liens working out guys?
Did I understand the challenges at the time? 100% but shall we ask Eniola Aluko and Casey Stone about 2007?
The message here. Thomas just gives us your money and fuck off.
I tell you what Thomas just do that. Keep your money and shut the whole thing down. Let the women’s players contracts run down. Cut your investment. Reallocate the new training and medical facilities and in 6 months no more than 20 people one on here will give it a second thought.
The Womens Team? Let’s all return to the days of whatever happened to that?
How many other prospective investors do you think have given the women’s game a second thought?
How many on here were bothered about the Women’s Club before TS bought it?
How many were clamouring for the Women’s Team to be brought under common ownership with the main club?
How many were demanding it be turned into a professional organisation? How many were demanding improved and training facilities, medical staff?
Strange during the men’s close season recruitment how many references were there here registering « Why is he is wasting his money on the Women’s team nobody gives a shit, he should be competing with Ipswich to bring in new players? »
So just who is funding all of this? Are you funding any of this? Please, please, please tell me the last contribution you made to the Women’s club?
The current staff? How many of them wore the Charlton shirt last year?
Are they getting paid?
Is he changing the club colours?
Is he relocating the business?
If this were a biscuit factory and the current staff were told the owner had decided to change the brand what say do you the think employees would have in that?
Ah forgot but this is football so it is different. It’s part of the community. What part of the community is that then? What because we stepped in with a hostile takeover of a Croydon Women’s operation for 7yrs. Was that a vanity exercise? Croydon was its 3rd iteration since the clubs original inception.
Oh you mean the CACT. The CACT relationship TS has reinvigorated after years of neglect. That community? It’s still Charlton.
Indeed were it not on Charlton TV how many on here will have watched even 10 of the women’s games in the last 5 seasons?
How many have tuned into the Charltons Women’s Matches this season?
Who even created Charlton TV which gives them air time?
Let’s hear your plans to grow the brand? Drive new revenues? Sell more tickets? Attend more games? What’s that? You don’t have any? Why’s that? Out of sight out of mind perhaps?
But he will damage the branding? For who? What the 300 people who in reality might give a shit?
Who on here had the Women’s Team on their Fans Forum Agenda tonight before this article?
At the very least he has gained people’s attention.
So by all means challenge the opinions but for gods sake keep these ludicrous character assassinations and frankly irrelevant nonsensical business references out of it. The stench of hypocrisy and double standards is over powering.
Personally TS I hope you stick with the opportunity. The Women’s game needs as much investment as it can get under whatever brand.
No, if it is true, I don’t agree with your decision. I can reference certain aspects of the work environment that present challenges to the rebranding but I don’t know how it fits with your business thinking. Guess what? No ego, no vanity just the same business debate I had for 40yrs.
What you mean having different ideas, different perceptions and challenging the status quo is healthy? Who’d have thought it?
I look forward to seeing how this plays out.
In this case, the reason this issue is significant is that it was always going to surface in the national press and damage both TS's reputation and Charlton's as a whole. For that reason the many people who knew the background, including the local media and supporters' trust, did not report it. People with a proper role in doing so tried to engage constructively to no effect.
However, TS's actions last week in consulting the players and then telling them he was disregarding their view anyway appears to have created so much internal unrest that it has led to the national publicity nobody wanted.
You can, if you like, believe that all is well and this is just bitter ex-employees throwing bricks. However, this story is coming from people inside the club.
His justification is that he wants a fresh start - a rebrand. I would have thought he has achieved that, but perhaps not in the way he intended.
I'll get me coat.
If your language isn't inclusive, you're not showing that you are inclusive. Most businesses employ specialists to make sure they don't mess this sort of thing up. At best this looks unprofessional and will attract ridicule. But hey, at least he'll have the support of some of the people who don't like women's football, top notch marketing strategy.
Firstly I am surprised why Thomas has made this move and would like to understand his thinking before making a real judgement.
However I would like to make a few points
1. it seems to go against what the way the industry is moving (it is called the women's league)
2. why can they just not compete as CAFC
3. the last people who should decide are the players. Consulted maybe but few of them will be here in 5 years.
4. Despite all the comments I cannot see why ladies is insulting, but perhaps this is an age thing.
It does matter to understand change.
I could have replied with you own retort about "Have any of you asked him why the change? So invested in the issue how many have despatched an email to the club? No, if I see him I’ll ask him. Not good enough. If it matters so much, write to him? Can’t be bothered? No thought not."
But I won't. Yes, there is a women's section in the museum. We have shirts, medals and trophies on prominent display. Have you visited the museum? And yes, we tweeted images of the Women's FA Cup and League Cup final shirts that were donated this year. We were delighted to have them. We've also worked with Steve Adamson, the General Manager, to secure some important other shirts a few years back and are currently working with the women's team secretary to capture the statistical history of women's team, some of which we already have but there are gaps.
As it happens, the current women's team have visited the museum as part of their induction and the history of the women's team, including the two day disbandment, is covered in the "Welcome to the Addicks" key point history we prepared for them and for the men and youth teams.
Without knowing the reasoning both can seem a bit strange.
https://helloclue.com/articles/culture/lets-talk-about-word-lady
If you refer to disabled people you wouldn't use the word 'handicapped' anymore.
Other just take the stance that it was OK when they were young or is OK in an totally different context so it's can't be wrong in this context or in 2021.
TLTR