I don't remember much homophobic abuse at the Valley over the years. The only incident that sticks in my mind was some witty Charlton fan shouting out 'Are you a faggot Bent?' or something similar at Marcus Bent when he was playing for Sheffield United. The look of absolute contempt he shot back when he heard it was the only time I ever had any respect for the guy. Pretty sure he went on to rip us a new one in that game too.
We always used to sing "We can see you holding hands" to the Brighton fans and in return they called us "Dirty Northern Bastards" All good fun and nobody got harmed.
Ah yeah, all good clean fun. Remember the monkey chants too? Nobody got ‘harmed’.
I was referring to what was sung/heard at The Valley, and I can never recall our fans making monkey chants at black players.
Go into a village (China, Russia and now The West!) and approach a "worker" (aka oppressed victim) and point to that big house on the hill where the factory boss lives. And tell the oppressed victim that the house on the hill is only there because of the victims slavery and blood sweat and toil. This rings true to him and word spreads that actually we should have MORE and the "evil" man on the hill deserves less. Because it is MINE/OURS. Perhaps killing him is the solution. Then we can all be equal, right?
Fast forward to today.
That same divisive devil who approached that factory worker is approaching every perceived oppressed group in The west (people of colour, women, disabled, the same sex attracted etc etc) now and saying ~ You would have so much more if just you can get rid of your oppressor. (Fill in the blank who the oppressor is)
And it spreads like cancer. And divides and divides and divides. Leads to chaos, war and ruin.
Perhaps the man in the big house on the hill was a good man and worked very hard and brought employment to hundreds of people. It is possible, no?
Perhaps the men in the village were grateful for this income for their families and had never thought of their employer as "evil oppressor" until the communist came along. It is possible.
Perhaps there are some in minority groups that have made a train wreck of their lives because of their own misgivings, dysfunction and chaos and they haven't yet taken responsibility for their lives. This also is possible. In fact, highly probable.
I find someone unearthing a piece of 40 year old footage of John Chiedozie being given the monkey chants is more divisive than the idiots abusing him. What good is it actually doing? Unearthing abuse. It's making you feel warm and fuzzy because you are reduced to nothing more than virtue signalling to get your own disappearing validation as you "perform to the gallery". And you are spreading it everywhere.
Let us acknowledge that ALL of us have said and done things that are shameful in the past. It is part of being human. Let us never repeat these shameful things going forward. That is a sign of maturity. Another sign of being truly human. And let's stop unearthing and rewriting history and spreading shame. It influences noone to do good. It just pits one person against another. Just as the communist succeeded as he entered the village in China ...
😂 you’re off your rocker.
So to clarify for anyone late to the party:
CL poster 1: I’ve not heard monkey chants at Charlton ever.
Being woke is far from being sleepily boring, it is about being anti racist, and is an invigorating and life affirming state to be in. I would urge everybody to be woke, and fight back against any snide sneering criticism of being like that. Challenge the racists. Resist the racists.
That's just it SP woke ISNT all about being anti-racist. If it was simply that, I think we could all join together under its banner. It's Marxist overreach and is about silencing anyone who dares to have a view (that is ever changing and more ridiculous by the day) that challenges theirs. As with all Marxist attitudes woke doesn't care for the perceived victim (which is what is Same sex attracted persons. People of colour, the disabled, the poor etc it just hates the perceived perpetrator. This is why woke is not Christianity. There is no love in the heart of woke. It is a fake religion.
Woke isn't a religion. It's an adjective to describe someone alert to racial prejudice and discrimination.
As such, one can be left- or right-wing and woke. One can be a Marxist or a rabid Thatcherist and be woke. One can be Christian, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Jewish, Shinto, Taoist, atheist, agonistic or a Jedi and be woke.
Are you alert to racial prejudice and injustice, @ValleyOfTears ? Because, guess what? If you are, you're woke.
And, if you're not, it would be very easy to see you as being a racist.
Which are you, V.O.T?
I would have to disagree with this. But I like the sincerity behind it nonetheless. Clearly you believe sincerely in woke being a noble attitude towards lifes challenges today.
Largely I disagree because (for the thousandth time on this thread) we are placing virtue at the root of "woke". And I am saying this is misleading.
To be a true woke person you can still harbour evil intentions towards others. To be a true Christian ~ you cannot.
And it is futile at this point to refer to the many evils perpetrated throughout history by those who were NOT true Christians/living the commandments etc but were "wolves in sheep's clothing".
(but I can see how tempting it would be to use them, and ONLY them, to support a weak argument for woke)
You write here that a Christian can be woke. Because you define "woke" as nothing more than holding a perfectly reasonable attitude towards other races. So far so good. But you are placing "Woke" as the highest position of virtue and people of different religions can be "woke".
What I am saying is not that being "alert to racial prejudice" is in any way wrong. That would be absurd. But what I AM saying is that a true Christian does not stop at this point. They are equally concerned with ALL persons. And so that true Christian, as I understand it, doesn't and CANNOT elevate one fashionable "victim" group and relegate another overlooked group and call themselves virtuous, good and just. Aren't the "abusers" doing just the same? Loving one group and demonising another. I am glad that people are seeing through woke now.
I have no doubt that implementing woke ideas is very pleasing to some specific interest groups. And at its best, can even protect such groups from unnecessary and unnnaceptable abuse. But at its worst, antifa mob etc it undoes any good with even more cruelty of its own. (See US streets all through 2020 businesses burnt down and looted ~ ironically owned by people of colour in the main!) People murdered in the street (including women and people of colour!!)
But it excludes great swathes of people too.
Truly awakened people don't see the world as "...Racist OR Antiracist ... There is nothing else a person can be". How desperately limiting an outlook is that?!
As pointed out before ~ it is black onservatives in America who are loathed by Marxists the most. Not the Tucker Carlsons of this world. Because they don't follow the victim narrative. And I have no doubt that it will be black conservatives that will ultimately take the power back in America.
And we can then all get on with the troubling business of growing up, being mature, accepting we are different, and not blaming everyone for the shambles we have made of things in order to give us that fleeting moment of satisfaction that comes when we lie to ourselves that we would be perfect with perfect lives if it wasn't for HIM. THEM, their "privilege" THAT oppressor etc.
I look forward to that day. And so should you.
I have highlighted two parts of your post. 'etc' is a catch all term, do you mean 'etc' to encompass everybody in the world? If you don't can you be specific? Can you expand on your use of the term 'Marxist' (I asked you something similar the other day), perhaps by linking or quoting something Marx actually wrote that illustrates what a 'Marxist' is supposed to be, because I suspect you use the word as another catch all?
I don't remember much homophobic abuse at the Valley over the years. The only incident that sticks in my mind was some witty Charlton fan shouting out 'Are you a faggot Bent?' or something similar at Marcus Bent when he was playing for Sheffield United. The look of absolute contempt he shot back when he heard it was the only time I ever had any respect for the guy. Pretty sure he went on to rip us a new one in that game too.
We always used to sing "We can see you holding hands" to the Brighton fans and in return they called us "Dirty Northern Bastards" All good fun and nobody got harmed.
Ah yeah, all good clean fun. Remember the monkey chants too? Nobody got ‘harmed’.
I was referring to what was sung/heard at The Valley, and I can never recall our fans making monkey chants at black players.
Go into a village (China, Russia and now The West!) and approach a "worker" (aka oppressed victim) and point to that big house on the hill where the factory boss lives. And tell the oppressed victim that the house on the hill is only there because of the victims slavery and blood sweat and toil. This rings true to him and word spreads that actually we should have MORE and the "evil" man on the hill deserves less. Because it is MINE/OURS. Perhaps killing him is the solution. Then we can all be equal, right?
Fast forward to today.
That same divisive devil who approached that factory worker is approaching every perceived oppressed group in The west (people of colour, women, disabled, the same sex attracted etc etc) now and saying ~ You would have so much more if just you can get rid of your oppressor. (Fill in the blank who the oppressor is)
And it spreads like cancer. And divides and divides and divides. Leads to chaos, war and ruin.
Perhaps the man in the big house on the hill was a good man and worked very hard and brought employment to hundreds of people. It is possible, no?
Perhaps the men in the village were grateful for this income for their families and had never thought of their employer as "evil oppressor" until the communist came along. It is possible.
Perhaps there are some in minority groups that have made a train wreck of their lives because of their own misgivings, dysfunction and chaos and they haven't yet taken responsibility for their lives. This also is possible. In fact, highly probable.
I find someone unearthing a piece of 40 year old footage of John Chiedozie being given the monkey chants is more divisive than the idiots abusing him. What good is it actually doing? Unearthing abuse. It's making you feel warm and fuzzy because you are reduced to nothing more than virtue signalling to get your own disappearing validation as you "perform to the gallery". And you are spreading it everywhere.
Let us acknowledge that ALL of us have said and done things that are shameful in the past. It is part of being human. Let us never repeat these shameful things going forward. That is a sign of maturity. Another sign of being truly human. And let's stop unearthing and rewriting history and spreading shame. It influences noone to do good. It just pits one person against another. Just as the communist succeeded as he entered the village in China ...
😂 you’re off your rocker.
So to clarify for anyone late to the party:
CL poster 1: I’ve not heard monkey chants at Charlton ever.
CL poster 2: there was, check out this old clip.
VoT: COMMUNISM! COMMUNISM!!!
Still "performing to the gallery" BR7! And desperately trying to make straw man arguments using things other people haven't said. I don't think anyone who knows Communism and it's dangers would find fault in the above posting I made. You are free to do so.
And to refer to your own "argument". If an earlier poster had said they had never heard monkey chants at the valley and the best you can do is find "5minutes in" a monkey chant from 1982 this doesn't somehow discredit the original post.
If I said I had never seen a woman run on to the pitch naked before and you fire out footage of Erica Roe from 198-whatever, this doesn't prove anything. I wasn't at the Erica Roe game. The other 10,000 games I attended there were no streakers. Therefore I arrive at this point of view that I have never seen streakers at a Charlton game.
And to return to your point about monkey chants (which all agree are not acceptable anywhere) context is important here nonetheless. I can't remember what year the film Trading Places came out (I suspect around the same time as John Chiedozie was receiving monkey chants ) ~ but in arguably the biggest grossing film of that year we remember the line "Do you honestly think we'd have a N***** working for us?". Referring to Eddie Murphy's character. And people would repeat this line I recall. So if the culture approved of this at the time how can anyone seriously dig out some old footage at football fans doing the same. In all things ~ be honest and remember the context in which things happened.
'The culture' has never 'approved' of monkey chants. Never. Monkey chants (cat calling) definitely happened. I heard it plenty of times. Presumably to the approval of some people, but never to the approval of something as vast as 'the culture'. On a personal level I lived in the culture, and never 'approved' of it. Are you suggesting somebody like me wouldn't be mainstream?
As with other posters who in the past have waffled delusional nonsense about communism, wokeness and Marxism taking over the world, you’ve done the textbook deflecting tactic of not answering simple questions because your entire post falls apart like our back four under Adkins.
But third time lucky n all that. Fascism - are you for or against it? Just want to establish if we’re all on the same side after all.
Being woke is far from being sleepily boring, it is about being anti racist, and is an invigorating and life affirming state to be in. I would urge everybody to be woke, and fight back against any snide sneering criticism of being like that. Challenge the racists. Resist the racists.
That's just it SP woke ISNT all about being anti-racist. If it was simply that, I think we could all join together under its banner. It's Marxist overreach and is about silencing anyone who dares to have a view (that is ever changing and more ridiculous by the day) that challenges theirs. As with all Marxist attitudes woke doesn't care for the perceived victim (which is what is Same sex attracted persons. People of colour, the disabled, the poor etc it just hates the perceived perpetrator. This is why woke is not Christianity. There is no love in the heart of woke. It is a fake religion.
Woke isn't a religion. It's an adjective to describe someone alert to racial prejudice and discrimination.
As such, one can be left- or right-wing and woke. One can be a Marxist or a rabid Thatcherist and be woke. One can be Christian, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Jewish, Shinto, Taoist, atheist, agonistic or a Jedi and be woke.
Are you alert to racial prejudice and injustice, @ValleyOfTears ? Because, guess what? If you are, you're woke.
And, if you're not, it would be very easy to see you as being a racist.
Which are you, V.O.T?
I would have to disagree with this. But I like the sincerity behind it nonetheless. Clearly you believe sincerely in woke being a noble attitude towards lifes challenges today.
Largely I disagree because (for the thousandth time on this thread) we are placing virtue at the root of "woke". And I am saying this is misleading.
To be a true woke person you can still harbour evil intentions towards others. To be a true Christian ~ you cannot.
And it is futile at this point to refer to the many evils perpetrated throughout history by those who were NOT true Christians/living the commandments etc but were "wolves in sheep's clothing".
(but I can see how tempting it would be to use them, and ONLY them, to support a weak argument for woke)
You write here that a Christian can be woke. Because you define "woke" as nothing more than holding a perfectly reasonable attitude towards other races. So far so good. But you are placing "Woke" as the highest position of virtue and people of different religions can be "woke".
What I am saying is not that being "alert to racial prejudice" is in any way wrong. That would be absurd. But what I AM saying is that a true Christian does not stop at this point. They are equally concerned with ALL persons. And so that true Christian, as I understand it, doesn't and CANNOT elevate one fashionable "victim" group and relegate another overlooked group and call themselves virtuous, good and just. Aren't the "abusers" doing just the same? Loving one group and demonising another. I am glad that people are seeing through woke now.
I have no doubt that implementing woke ideas is very pleasing to some specific interest groups. And at its best, can even protect such groups from unnecessary and unnnaceptable abuse. But at its worst, antifa mob etc it undoes any good with even more cruelty of its own. (See US streets all through 2020 businesses burnt down and looted ~ ironically owned by people of colour in the main!) People murdered in the street (including women and people of colour!!)
But it excludes great swathes of people too.
Truly awakened people don't see the world as "...Racist OR Antiracist ... There is nothing else a person can be". How desperately limiting an outlook is that?!
As pointed out before ~ it is black onservatives in America who are loathed by Marxists the most. Not the Tucker Carlsons of this world. Because they don't follow the victim narrative. And I have no doubt that it will be black conservatives that will ultimately take the power back in America.
And we can then all get on with the troubling business of growing up, being mature, accepting we are different, and not blaming everyone for the shambles we have made of things in order to give us that fleeting moment of satisfaction that comes when we lie to ourselves that we would be perfect with perfect lives if it wasn't for HIM. THEM, their "privilege" THAT oppressor etc.
I look forward to that day. And so should you.
Are you alert to racial prejudice and injustice, @ValleyOfTears ? Because, guess what? If you are, you're woke.
And, if you're not, it would be very easy to see you as being a racist.
Being woke is far from being sleepily boring, it is about being anti racist, and is an invigorating and life affirming state to be in. I would urge everybody to be woke, and fight back against any snide sneering criticism of being like that. Challenge the racists. Resist the racists.
Interestingly, one facet of fascism, mentioned in definitions found in just about any reputable dictionary, is the absolute refusal to accept the validity of an opposing view.
Bang on, hence why I cant stand JOB and switch him off, and ignore several posters here.
- Fascism is the absolute refusal to accept the validity of an opposing view - I agree. That's why I refuse to accept the validity of the views of someone I disagree with
I don't remember much homophobic abuse at the Valley over the years. The only incident that sticks in my mind was some witty Charlton fan shouting out 'Are you a faggot Bent?' or something similar at Marcus Bent when he was playing for Sheffield United. The look of absolute contempt he shot back when he heard it was the only time I ever had any respect for the guy. Pretty sure he went on to rip us a new one in that game too.
We always used to sing "We can see you holding hands" to the Brighton fans and in return they called us "Dirty Northern Bastards" All good fun and nobody got harmed.
Ah yeah, all good clean fun. Remember the monkey chants too? Nobody got ‘harmed’.
I was referring to what was sung/heard at The Valley, and I can never recall our fans making monkey chants at black players.
Go into a village (China, Russia and now The West!) and approach a "worker" (aka oppressed victim) and point to that big house on the hill where the factory boss lives. And tell the oppressed victim that the house on the hill is only there because of the victims slavery and blood sweat and toil. This rings true to him and word spreads that actually we should have MORE and the "evil" man on the hill deserves less. Because it is MINE/OURS. Perhaps killing him is the solution. Then we can all be equal, right?
Fast forward to today.
That same divisive devil who approached that factory worker is approaching every perceived oppressed group in The west (people of colour, women, disabled, the same sex attracted etc etc) now and saying ~ You would have so much more if just you can get rid of your oppressor. (Fill in the blank who the oppressor is)
And it spreads like cancer. And divides and divides and divides. Leads to chaos, war and ruin.
Perhaps the man in the big house on the hill was a good man and worked very hard and brought employment to hundreds of people. It is possible, no?
Perhaps the men in the village were grateful for this income for their families and had never thought of their employer as "evil oppressor" until the communist came along. It is possible.
Perhaps there are some in minority groups that have made a train wreck of their lives because of their own misgivings, dysfunction and chaos and they haven't yet taken responsibility for their lives. This also is possible. In fact, highly probable.
I find someone unearthing a piece of 40 year old footage of John Chiedozie being given the monkey chants is more divisive than the idiots abusing him. What good is it actually doing? Unearthing abuse. It's making you feel warm and fuzzy because you are reduced to nothing more than virtue signalling to get your own disappearing validation as you "perform to the gallery". And you are spreading it everywhere.
Let us acknowledge that ALL of us have said and done things that are shameful in the past. It is part of being human. Let us never repeat these shameful things going forward. That is a sign of maturity. Another sign of being truly human. And let's stop unearthing and rewriting history and spreading shame. It influences noone to do good. It just pits one person against another. Just as the communist succeeded as he entered the village in China ...
You really do have a perverted view of Marxism (and Christianity for that matter - didn't Jesus throw over the tables of the money lenders, praised the widow, and claimed that the meek shall inherit the earth). Or so the fairy story goes.
There are no Marxist states in the world today - there never has been. But if we're talking about Marx then there are some schools of thought that accuse him of being a racist because he didn't see different groups as important - he was a reductionist and viewed all the oppressed equally. He did support the north in the Civil War though. I don't see him as a racist - he was an economist.
Marx and Engels were of their time, when the man on the hill was evil and the oppressed were starving. That was then. Thoughts and opinions changed (particularly in the west - outside of the US perhaps) and embraced social responsibility - it wasn't 'take everything from the rich' but it was a realisation that every man had a social responsibility to their fellow man. Those that had greater wealth paid more taxes to enable those without to be able to put a roof over their heads, feed their children and keep them warm. Provide a universal health service free at the point of delivery, irrespective of ability to pay. Such evilness!! The rich still get richer but maybe not quite as quickly.
It's called socialism - but I'm sure you just equate all of that with Marxism.
I don't remember much homophobic abuse at the Valley over the years. The only incident that sticks in my mind was some witty Charlton fan shouting out 'Are you a faggot Bent?' or something similar at Marcus Bent when he was playing for Sheffield United. The look of absolute contempt he shot back when he heard it was the only time I ever had any respect for the guy. Pretty sure he went on to rip us a new one in that game too.
We always used to sing "We can see you holding hands" to the Brighton fans and in return they called us "Dirty Northern Bastards" All good fun and nobody got harmed.
Ah yeah, all good clean fun. Remember the monkey chants too? Nobody got ‘harmed’.
I was referring to what was sung/heard at The Valley, and I can never recall our fans making monkey chants at black players.
Go into a village (China, Russia and now The West!) and approach a "worker" (aka oppressed victim) and point to that big house on the hill where the factory boss lives. And tell the oppressed victim that the house on the hill is only there because of the victims slavery and blood sweat and toil. This rings true to him and word spreads that actually we should have MORE and the "evil" man on the hill deserves less. Because it is MINE/OURS. Perhaps killing him is the solution. Then we can all be equal, right?
Fast forward to today.
That same divisive devil who approached that factory worker is approaching every perceived oppressed group in The west (people of colour, women, disabled, the same sex attracted etc etc) now and saying ~ You would have so much more if just you can get rid of your oppressor. (Fill in the blank who the oppressor is)
And it spreads like cancer. And divides and divides and divides. Leads to chaos, war and ruin.
Perhaps the man in the big house on the hill was a good man and worked very hard and brought employment to hundreds of people. It is possible, no?
Perhaps the men in the village were grateful for this income for their families and had never thought of their employer as "evil oppressor" until the communist came along. It is possible.
Perhaps there are some in minority groups that have made a train wreck of their lives because of their own misgivings, dysfunction and chaos and they haven't yet taken responsibility for their lives. This also is possible. In fact, highly probable.
I find someone unearthing a piece of 40 year old footage of John Chiedozie being given the monkey chants is more divisive than the idiots abusing him. What good is it actually doing? Unearthing abuse. It's making you feel warm and fuzzy because you are reduced to nothing more than virtue signalling to get your own disappearing validation as you "perform to the gallery". And you are spreading it everywhere.
Let us acknowledge that ALL of us have said and done things that are shameful in the past. It is part of being human. Let us never repeat these shameful things going forward. That is a sign of maturity. Another sign of being truly human. And let's stop unearthing and rewriting history and spreading shame. It influences noone to do good. It just pits one person against another. Just as the communist succeeded as he entered the village in China ...
You really do have a perverted view of Marxism (and Christianity for that matter - didn't Jesus throw over the tables of the money lenders, praised the widow, and claimed that the meek shall inherit the earth). Or so the fairy story goes.
There are no Marxist states in the world today - there never has been. But if we're talking about Marx then there are some schools of thought that accuse him of being a racist because he didn't see different groups as important - he was a reductionist and viewed all the oppressed equally. He did support the north in the Civil War though. I don't see him as a racist - he was an economist.
Marx and Engels were of their time, when the man on the hill was evil and the oppressed were starving. That was then. Thoughts and opinions changed (particularly in the west - outside of the US perhaps) and embraced social responsibility - it wasn't 'take everything from the rich' but it was a realisation that every man had a social responsibility to their fellow man. Those that had greater wealth paid more taxes to enable those without to be able to put a roof over their heads, feed their children and keep them warm. Provide a universal health service free at the point of delivery, irrespective of ability to pay. Such evilness!! The rich still get richer but maybe not quite as quickly.
It's called socialism - but I'm sure you just equate all of that with Marxism.
Trump supporter by any chance?
You are a fellow Addick so you at least have "something" going for you. Beyond that ~ it reads pretty grim Bob.
Once again you miss the proverbial elephant in your Socialist Marxist utopian world view. Sadly, you are not alone.
Some poor people are actually poor because of their own attitudes and behaviours. Such people don't even exist in your world view. Surely you can see there is a glaring problem in that? *Proud and poor" ~ cursed twice, I remember reading...
I am glad you have a vestigial memory of a few passages of the gospel. That's great. I do hope you find the time to read them in their entirety so that you can have a balanced view on rich and poor. Our attitude to money, social responsibility and all the points you raise and see answered in the failed Marxist/Socialist ideology.
I don't remember much homophobic abuse at the Valley over the years. The only incident that sticks in my mind was some witty Charlton fan shouting out 'Are you a faggot Bent?' or something similar at Marcus Bent when he was playing for Sheffield United. The look of absolute contempt he shot back when he heard it was the only time I ever had any respect for the guy. Pretty sure he went on to rip us a new one in that game too.
We always used to sing "We can see you holding hands" to the Brighton fans and in return they called us "Dirty Northern Bastards" All good fun and nobody got harmed.
Ah yeah, all good clean fun. Remember the monkey chants too? Nobody got ‘harmed’.
I was referring to what was sung/heard at The Valley, and I can never recall our fans making monkey chants at black players.
Go into a village (China, Russia and now The West!) and approach a "worker" (aka oppressed victim) and point to that big house on the hill where the factory boss lives. And tell the oppressed victim that the house on the hill is only there because of the victims slavery and blood sweat and toil. This rings true to him and word spreads that actually we should have MORE and the "evil" man on the hill deserves less. Because it is MINE/OURS. Perhaps killing him is the solution. Then we can all be equal, right?
Fast forward to today.
That same divisive devil who approached that factory worker is approaching every perceived oppressed group in The west (people of colour, women, disabled, the same sex attracted etc etc) now and saying ~ You would have so much more if just you can get rid of your oppressor. (Fill in the blank who the oppressor is)
And it spreads like cancer. And divides and divides and divides. Leads to chaos, war and ruin.
Perhaps the man in the big house on the hill was a good man and worked very hard and brought employment to hundreds of people. It is possible, no?
Perhaps the men in the village were grateful for this income for their families and had never thought of their employer as "evil oppressor" until the communist came along. It is possible.
Perhaps there are some in minority groups that have made a train wreck of their lives because of their own misgivings, dysfunction and chaos and they haven't yet taken responsibility for their lives. This also is possible. In fact, highly probable.
I find someone unearthing a piece of 40 year old footage of John Chiedozie being given the monkey chants is more divisive than the idiots abusing him. What good is it actually doing? Unearthing abuse. It's making you feel warm and fuzzy because you are reduced to nothing more than virtue signalling to get your own disappearing validation as you "perform to the gallery". And you are spreading it everywhere.
Let us acknowledge that ALL of us have said and done things that are shameful in the past. It is part of being human. Let us never repeat these shameful things going forward. That is a sign of maturity. Another sign of being truly human. And let's stop unearthing and rewriting history and spreading shame. It influences noone to do good. It just pits one person against another. Just as the communist succeeded as he entered the village in China ...
You really do have a perverted view of Marxism (and Christianity for that matter - didn't Jesus throw over the tables of the money lenders, praised the widow, and claimed that the meek shall inherit the earth). Or so the fairy story goes.
There are no Marxist states in the world today - there never has been. But if we're talking about Marx then there are some schools of thought that accuse him of being a racist because he didn't see different groups as important - he was a reductionist and viewed all the oppressed equally. He did support the north in the Civil War though. I don't see him as a racist - he was an economist.
Marx and Engels were of their time, when the man on the hill was evil and the oppressed were starving. That was then. Thoughts and opinions changed (particularly in the west - outside of the US perhaps) and embraced social responsibility - it wasn't 'take everything from the rich' but it was a realisation that every man had a social responsibility to their fellow man. Those that had greater wealth paid more taxes to enable those without to be able to put a roof over their heads, feed their children and keep them warm. Provide a universal health service free at the point of delivery, irrespective of ability to pay. Such evilness!! The rich still get richer but maybe not quite as quickly.
It's called socialism - but I'm sure you just equate all of that with Marxism.
Trump supporter by any chance?
You are a fellow Addick so you at least have "something" going for you. Beyond that ~ it reads pretty grim Bob.
Once again you miss the proverbial elephant in your Socialist Marxist utopian world view. Sadly, you are not alone.
Some poor people are actually poor because of their own attitudes and behaviours. Such people don't even exist in your world view. Surely you can see there is a glaring problem in that? *Proud and poor" ~ cursed twice, I remember reading...
I am glad you have a vestigial memory of a few passages of the gospel. That's great. I do hope you find the time to read them in their entirety so that you can have a balanced view on rich and poor. Our attitude to money, social responsibility and all the points you raise and see answered in the failed Marxist/Socialist ideology.
I would not waste my time reading the gospels - if it leads a reader to your points of view.
By most reasonable measures I am rich in the monetary sense (much richer in the most important senses though) - and I am proud to call myself a socialist.
I don't remember much homophobic abuse at the Valley over the years. The only incident that sticks in my mind was some witty Charlton fan shouting out 'Are you a faggot Bent?' or something similar at Marcus Bent when he was playing for Sheffield United. The look of absolute contempt he shot back when he heard it was the only time I ever had any respect for the guy. Pretty sure he went on to rip us a new one in that game too.
We always used to sing "We can see you holding hands" to the Brighton fans and in return they called us "Dirty Northern Bastards" All good fun and nobody got harmed.
Ah yeah, all good clean fun. Remember the monkey chants too? Nobody got ‘harmed’.
I was referring to what was sung/heard at The Valley, and I can never recall our fans making monkey chants at black players.
Go into a village (China, Russia and now The West!) and approach a "worker" (aka oppressed victim) and point to that big house on the hill where the factory boss lives. And tell the oppressed victim that the house on the hill is only there because of the victims slavery and blood sweat and toil. This rings true to him and word spreads that actually we should have MORE and the "evil" man on the hill deserves less. Because it is MINE/OURS. Perhaps killing him is the solution. Then we can all be equal, right?
Fast forward to today.
That same divisive devil who approached that factory worker is approaching every perceived oppressed group in The west (people of colour, women, disabled, the same sex attracted etc etc) now and saying ~ You would have so much more if just you can get rid of your oppressor. (Fill in the blank who the oppressor is)
And it spreads like cancer. And divides and divides and divides. Leads to chaos, war and ruin.
Perhaps the man in the big house on the hill was a good man and worked very hard and brought employment to hundreds of people. It is possible, no?
Perhaps the men in the village were grateful for this income for their families and had never thought of their employer as "evil oppressor" until the communist came along. It is possible.
Perhaps there are some in minority groups that have made a train wreck of their lives because of their own misgivings, dysfunction and chaos and they haven't yet taken responsibility for their lives. This also is possible. In fact, highly probable.
I find someone unearthing a piece of 40 year old footage of John Chiedozie being given the monkey chants is more divisive than the idiots abusing him. What good is it actually doing? Unearthing abuse. It's making you feel warm and fuzzy because you are reduced to nothing more than virtue signalling to get your own disappearing validation as you "perform to the gallery". And you are spreading it everywhere.
Let us acknowledge that ALL of us have said and done things that are shameful in the past. It is part of being human. Let us never repeat these shameful things going forward. That is a sign of maturity. Another sign of being truly human. And let's stop unearthing and rewriting history and spreading shame. It influences noone to do good. It just pits one person against another. Just as the communist succeeded as he entered the village in China ...
You really do have a perverted view of Marxism (and Christianity for that matter - didn't Jesus throw over the tables of the money lenders, praised the widow, and claimed that the meek shall inherit the earth). Or so the fairy story goes.
There are no Marxist states in the world today - there never has been. But if we're talking about Marx then there are some schools of thought that accuse him of being a racist because he didn't see different groups as important - he was a reductionist and viewed all the oppressed equally. He did support the north in the Civil War though. I don't see him as a racist - he was an economist.
Marx and Engels were of their time, when the man on the hill was evil and the oppressed were starving. That was then. Thoughts and opinions changed (particularly in the west - outside of the US perhaps) and embraced social responsibility - it wasn't 'take everything from the rich' but it was a realisation that every man had a social responsibility to their fellow man. Those that had greater wealth paid more taxes to enable those without to be able to put a roof over their heads, feed their children and keep them warm. Provide a universal health service free at the point of delivery, irrespective of ability to pay. Such evilness!! The rich still get richer but maybe not quite as quickly.
It's called socialism - but I'm sure you just equate all of that with Marxism.
Trump supporter by any chance?
You are a fellow Addick so you at least have "something" going for you. Beyond that ~ it reads pretty grim Bob.
Once again you miss the proverbial elephant in your Socialist Marxist utopian world view. Sadly, you are not alone.
Some poor people are actually poor because of their own attitudes and behaviours. Such people don't even exist in your world view. Surely you can see there is a glaring problem in that? *Proud and poor" ~ cursed twice, I remember reading...
I am glad you have a vestigial memory of a few passages of the gospel. That's great. I do hope you find the time to read them in their entirety so that you can have a balanced view on rich and poor. Our attitude to money, social responsibility and all the points you raise and see answered in the failed Marxist/Socialist ideology.
You want Bob to read passages from the Gospel, yet you won't quote any passages or provide any links to the bits of Karl Marx writings that specifically trouble you.
I don't remember much homophobic abuse at the Valley over the years. The only incident that sticks in my mind was some witty Charlton fan shouting out 'Are you a faggot Bent?' or something similar at Marcus Bent when he was playing for Sheffield United. The look of absolute contempt he shot back when he heard it was the only time I ever had any respect for the guy. Pretty sure he went on to rip us a new one in that game too.
We always used to sing "We can see you holding hands" to the Brighton fans and in return they called us "Dirty Northern Bastards" All good fun and nobody got harmed.
Ah yeah, all good clean fun. Remember the monkey chants too? Nobody got ‘harmed’.
I was referring to what was sung/heard at The Valley, and I can never recall our fans making monkey chants at black players.
Go into a village (China, Russia and now The West!) and approach a "worker" (aka oppressed victim) and point to that big house on the hill where the factory boss lives. And tell the oppressed victim that the house on the hill is only there because of the victims slavery and blood sweat and toil. This rings true to him and word spreads that actually we should have MORE and the "evil" man on the hill deserves less. Because it is MINE/OURS. Perhaps killing him is the solution. Then we can all be equal, right?
Fast forward to today.
That same divisive devil who approached that factory worker is approaching every perceived oppressed group in The west (people of colour, women, disabled, the same sex attracted etc etc) now and saying ~ You would have so much more if just you can get rid of your oppressor. (Fill in the blank who the oppressor is)
And it spreads like cancer. And divides and divides and divides. Leads to chaos, war and ruin.
Perhaps the man in the big house on the hill was a good man and worked very hard and brought employment to hundreds of people. It is possible, no?
Perhaps the men in the village were grateful for this income for their families and had never thought of their employer as "evil oppressor" until the communist came along. It is possible.
Perhaps there are some in minority groups that have made a train wreck of their lives because of their own misgivings, dysfunction and chaos and they haven't yet taken responsibility for their lives. This also is possible. In fact, highly probable.
I find someone unearthing a piece of 40 year old footage of John Chiedozie being given the monkey chants is more divisive than the idiots abusing him. What good is it actually doing? Unearthing abuse. It's making you feel warm and fuzzy because you are reduced to nothing more than virtue signalling to get your own disappearing validation as you "perform to the gallery". And you are spreading it everywhere.
Let us acknowledge that ALL of us have said and done things that are shameful in the past. It is part of being human. Let us never repeat these shameful things going forward. That is a sign of maturity. Another sign of being truly human. And let's stop unearthing and rewriting history and spreading shame. It influences noone to do good. It just pits one person against another. Just as the communist succeeded as he entered the village in China ...
😂 you’re off your rocker.
So to clarify for anyone late to the party:
CL poster 1: I’ve not heard monkey chants at Charlton ever.
CL poster 2: there was, check out this old clip.
VoT: COMMUNISM! COMMUNISM!!!
Still "performing to the gallery" BR7! And desperately trying to make straw man arguments using things other people haven't said. I don't think anyone who knows Communism and it's dangers would find fault in the above posting I made. You are free to do so.
And to refer to your own "argument". If an earlier poster had said they had never heard monkey chants at the valley and the best you can do is find "5minutes in" a monkey chant from 1982 this doesn't somehow discredit the original post.
If I said I had never seen a woman run on to the pitch naked before and you fire out footage of Erica Roe from 198-whatever, this doesn't prove anything. I wasn't at the Erica Roe game. The other 10,000 games I attended there were no streakers. Therefore I arrive at this point of view that I have never seen streakers at a Charlton game.
And to return to your point about monkey chants (which all agree are not acceptable anywhere) context is important here nonetheless. I can't remember what year the film Trading Places came out (I suspect around the same time as John Chiedozie was receiving monkey chants ) ~ but in arguably the biggest grossing film of that year we remember the line "Do you honestly think we'd have a N***** working for us?". Referring to Eddie Murphy's character. And people would repeat this line I recall. So if the culture approved of this at the time how can anyone seriously dig out some old footage at football fans doing the same. In all things ~ be honest and remember the context in which things happened.
Its good here isn't it...your only a couple of people away from having the full set.
Go for it then mate. Fill your boots. Like many others I will just roll my eyes and put it down as another thread not worth reading because the main (serious) point gets derailed by the same old protagonists who seemingly can't help themselves. Another reason to not even come on here in the first place.
Says the man who gets offended by beer in a mason jar.
I don't remember much homophobic abuse at the Valley over the years. The only incident that sticks in my mind was some witty Charlton fan shouting out 'Are you a faggot Bent?' or something similar at Marcus Bent when he was playing for Sheffield United. The look of absolute contempt he shot back when he heard it was the only time I ever had any respect for the guy. Pretty sure he went on to rip us a new one in that game too.
We always used to sing "We can see you holding hands" to the Brighton fans and in return they called us "Dirty Northern Bastards" All good fun and nobody got harmed.
Ah yeah, all good clean fun. Remember the monkey chants too? Nobody got ‘harmed’.
I was referring to what was sung/heard at The Valley, and I can never recall our fans making monkey chants at black players.
I can. And zeig heil nazi salutes.
If this happened I suggest it was about 50 years ago. When did you hear it?
I do remember Zelig Heil & Nazi Salutes in the covered end. About 1977/1978. Around the same time as the NF were handing out leaflets & selling papers outside the turnstiles.
Absolute state of this thread. There is a fundamental misunderstanding on this board and, in some corners, an unwillingness to change and adapt.
I'll call it out when I see it, and like on Tuesday when in the pub with a couple of mates, I will call out any homophobic or otherwise pejorative language immediately. (And much to my surprise, I got a very sincere apology.)
Im glad to read that the next time you hear someone/group shout, for example, "chav, pikey, scum" and other pejorative language you will call it out immediately. Being consistent with all forms of abuse is essential if one is to be taken seriously. Being aggrieved at just "some" forms of abuse makes the whole woke thing utterly ludicrous.
Good luck in making the world a better place. For everyone!
... Yes? You would be absolutely correct that I'd call it out. I don't think you're making the point you think you're making.
NB That said, I'm not sure in what context "scum" is necessarily directed against a certain group of people (whereas the other two are classist and anti-traveller respectively). The only thing I can think of is when used similarly to scab vis-a-vis picket lines - and tbf anyone crossing a picket line is a bit... well, scummy.
We began this perfectly reasonable thread with KillerAndFlash reporting "homophobic abuse" at the Cheltenham game. There was word that 3 Charlton fans were arrested for "homophobic abuse". This then seemed to be Cheltenham supporters. Anyway the discussion is, I believe, about football fans being "terribly saddened" by chants that offend people with same sex attraction. And presumably anyone of any attraction can be offended by these chants. So far so good.
Then we had a shoal of the exceptionally "tolerant" progressives among us (!) Aka the "Ban anyone who says anything I don't want to hear" Woke brigade. We then moved, imperceptibly, to the Woke ideology. What some people perceive Woke as. Differing views on this. And then onto what really lies behind the mindset of someone who purportedly is "sickened" by some forms of abuse (the homophobic chants in question) but perfectly ok with others (a few pointed out that a man who works to feed his family and is a "Scab" and lowest life form, if he chooses to continue to work to feed his family rather than be at the mercy of a union rep on a picket line. So we covered Marxist, Communist, Far-left leanings and how incompatible they are with the word of the century "tolerance" (the highest apparent virtue of the woke "religion")
And then for a few "Johnny come latelies" we had the rather tragic display of demanding that a person has to define themselves as "Antifascist" (never actually being told what this word means TO THEM) and if they don't limit their identity to this word ~ that MUST mean er ... They are a Fascist!!!
What a tiny and limited world such people have.
My point ~ rather lost under the weight of a rather intolerant (the irony of it all!) comments from a cluster of Christian-hating, Nation-hating, Marxists, was to simply suggest ~ yes, let us not sing abusive songs that mercilessly mock same sex attracted persons. But what is more ... Let us NOT STOP THERE. If you are TRULY sickened by other people being abused (which I think we have discovered on this thread ~ you are not) then this must be extended to ALL PERSONS not just the ones that are currently politically correct and fashionable.
Absolute state of this thread. There is a fundamental misunderstanding on this board and, in some corners, an unwillingness to change and adapt.
I'll call it out when I see it, and like on Tuesday when in the pub with a couple of mates, I will call out any homophobic or otherwise pejorative language immediately. (And much to my surprise, I got a very sincere apology.)
Im glad to read that the next time you hear someone/group shout, for example, "chav, pikey, scum" and other pejorative language you will call it out immediately. Being consistent with all forms of abuse is essential if one is to be taken seriously. Being aggrieved at just "some" forms of abuse makes the whole woke thing utterly ludicrous.
Good luck in making the world a better place. For everyone!
... Yes? You would be absolutely correct that I'd call it out. I don't think you're making the point you think you're making.
NB That said, I'm not sure in what context "scum" is necessarily directed against a certain group of people (whereas the other two are classist and anti-traveller respectively). The only thing I can think of is when used similarly to scab vis-a-vis picket lines - and tbf anyone crossing a picket line is a bit... well, scummy.
Not nice to refer to people as scum particularly when they are trying to do a job of work that they probably only do to feed their families and keep a roof over their head
Comments
So to clarify for anyone late to the party:
CL poster 1: I’ve not heard monkey chants at Charlton ever.
CL poster 2: there was, check out this old clip.
VoT: COMMUNISM! COMMUNISM!!!
'etc' is a catch all term, do you mean 'etc' to encompass everybody in the world? If you don't can you be specific?
Can you expand on your use of the term 'Marxist' (I asked you something similar the other day), perhaps by linking or quoting something Marx actually wrote that illustrates what a 'Marxist' is supposed to be, because I suspect you use the word as another catch all?
And to refer to your own "argument". If an earlier poster had said they had never heard monkey chants at the valley and the best you can do is find "5minutes in" a monkey chant from 1982 this doesn't somehow discredit the original post.
If I said I had never seen a woman run on to the pitch naked before and you fire out footage of Erica Roe from 198-whatever, this doesn't prove anything. I wasn't at the Erica Roe game. The other 10,000 games I attended there were no streakers. Therefore I arrive at this point of view that I have never seen streakers at a Charlton game.
And to return to your point about monkey chants (which all agree are not acceptable anywhere) context is important here nonetheless. I can't remember what year the film Trading Places came out (I suspect around the same time as John Chiedozie was receiving monkey chants ) ~ but in arguably the biggest grossing film of that year we remember the line "Do you honestly think we'd have a N***** working for us?". Referring to Eddie Murphy's character. And people would repeat this line I recall. So if the culture approved of this at the time how can anyone seriously dig out some old footage at football fans doing the same. In all things ~ be honest and remember the context in which things happened.
Never.
Monkey chants (cat calling) definitely happened. I heard it plenty of times.
Presumably to the approval of some people, but never to the approval of something as vast as 'the culture'.
On a personal level I lived in the culture, and never 'approved' of it.
Are you suggesting somebody like me wouldn't be mainstream?
But third time lucky n all that. Fascism - are you for or against it? Just want to establish if we’re all on the same side after all.
And, if you're not, it would be very easy to see you as being a racist.
Which are you, V.O.T?
I look forward to your answer.
- I agree. That's why I refuse to accept the validity of the views of someone I disagree with
Once again you miss the proverbial elephant in your Socialist Marxist utopian world view. Sadly, you are not alone.
Some poor people are actually poor because of their own attitudes and behaviours. Such people don't even exist in your world view. Surely you can see there is a glaring problem in that? *Proud and poor" ~ cursed twice, I remember reading...
I am glad you have a vestigial memory of a few passages of the gospel. That's great. I do hope you find the time to read them in their entirety so that you can have a balanced view on rich and poor. Our attitude to money, social responsibility and all the points you raise and see answered in the failed Marxist/Socialist ideology.
Tonight has been great fun.
in the covered end. About 1977/1978.
Around the same time as
the NF were handing out leaflets
& selling papers outside the
turnstiles.
NB That said, I'm not sure in what context "scum" is necessarily directed against a certain group of people (whereas the other two are classist and anti-traveller respectively). The only thing I can think of is when used similarly to scab vis-a-vis picket lines - and tbf anyone crossing a picket line is a bit... well, scummy.
Then we had a shoal of the exceptionally "tolerant" progressives among us (!) Aka the "Ban anyone who says anything I don't want to hear" Woke brigade.
We then moved, imperceptibly, to the Woke ideology. What some people perceive Woke as. Differing views on this. And then onto what really lies behind the mindset of someone who purportedly is "sickened" by some forms of abuse (the homophobic chants in question) but perfectly ok with others (a few pointed out that a man who works to feed his family and is a "Scab" and lowest life form, if he chooses to continue to work to feed his family rather than be at the mercy of a union rep on a picket line. So we covered Marxist, Communist, Far-left leanings and how incompatible they are with the word of the century "tolerance" (the highest apparent virtue of the woke "religion")
And then for a few "Johnny come latelies" we had the rather tragic display of demanding that a person has to define themselves as "Antifascist" (never actually being told what this word means TO THEM) and if they don't limit their identity to this word ~ that MUST mean er ... They are a Fascist!!!
What a tiny and limited world such people have.
My point ~ rather lost under the weight of a rather intolerant (the irony of it all!) comments from a cluster of Christian-hating, Nation-hating, Marxists,
was to simply suggest ~ yes, let us not sing abusive songs that mercilessly mock same sex attracted persons. But what is more ... Let us NOT STOP THERE. If you are TRULY sickened by other people being abused (which I think we have discovered on this thread ~ you are not) then this must be extended to ALL PERSONS not just the ones that are currently politically correct and fashionable.
Also Valley of Tears: Clearly you are all woke Marxists.
Irony meter set to maximum.