Good signing for Sheff Wed today, getting Will Vaulks from Cardiff. Very good player at this level.
Saw this and it did feel like a bit of a reality check after getting excited the last 2 days. I like our 2 signings so far but just a reminder this league is going to be difficult to even get top 6 in. Hopefully we have signings of this calibre on the way as well as picking the best of lower league 1/league 2 talent
I think a bit of reality has hit home, both at the club and as a fan base.
Denying there were major fuck ups over the last 18 months does no one any good.
You don't need to be captain hindsight to know a center half and a more suitable striker in January 21 would have probably got us in the play offs. Nor that the two windows since then have taken us backwards.
Now let's take that on the chin, it could have been much worse, it nearly was.
If lessons have been learnt (it's still if imo) and we now do it right, it may well take 18 months. I might take longer. But we have appointed an excellent manager (you could argue that his 3 predecessors were as well) and the early signs are we are giving him the tools to do his job. That's a change. The rhetoric has changed.
Blind faith? No. Evidence based assessment. So far so good, but there is a hell of a lot of work to do, Thomas's money to spend, and my life to waste.
Evidence based assessment?
We have appointed a League 2 manager. So far, we have signed two League 2 players ... one of which finished in 18th place.
It may work out. It may not. But it's hardly a proven recipe for delivering a Championship-ready (not Premier League-ready) team.
I remain as optimistic as the next fan ... but don't kid yourself. It's optimism, not evidence-based.
Where a signing's previous team finished in the table seems irrelevant to me. Are they supposed to stop all the goals going in, pass through the middle, go up the other end and score them as well? It's one player.
We finished 13th, what does that say about George Dobson this season... It says he was a great performer in a shit team. But if we were a club in the division above, signing him, there'd be people moaning that we were signing someone who finished 13th in the league below.
And complaints about which league signings are playing in. Unless academy staff and scouts have absolutely perfected every decision at every club in the country, there will be good players up and down the ladder. Some will prove too good for their division and move up, some will prove not good enough and move down. That's just the way it works.
We know that. We've had the worst possible crap from the Championship and absolute gems from the league below. It's football, it's about the player, the league doesn't have much to do with anything.
Correct.
But ... statistically, players in a lower League are not as good as players in higher League. There will be exceptions .. and, of course, a team's final finishing place is not simply down to one player.
On balance, if I was looking at getting out of the current Division, I would prefer to sign players (and a Manager) from a League or two above ... and even from the current League ... rather than from a League below.
Wouldn't you?
Well not necessarily. Players we signed from leagues above us include such glittering talents as Watson, Gunter and Arter whereas the likes of CBT (one of few bright spots last time out) show that there's unpolished gems still out there in League 2.
If a player drops from a higher level for lesser pay, there's normally a good reason for it and it's not always to the benefit of the team they sign for.
If every player we sign is a league two freebie then yes there's concerns there. But I doubt that will be the case.
Yeah if you look at our recruitment since Sandgaard has signed, we've signed loads of players from the league above who turned out to be flops. In fact, in our first season back in League 1 we could have easily fielded the following XI: Amos Gunter Inniss Famewo Purrington Watson Pratley Shinnie Williams Bogle Smyth
Every single one of those players played in a higher league the season above (admittedly 4 were relegated and 2 were out on loan but still). Gunter and Watson in particular were truly awful signings and both had been reasonable in the league above.
Watson was not an awful signing. Gunter was a stupid signing if we knew that Matthews was coming back anyway. Having both was silly.
Watson was really good in the last 3 months of last season. It probably was one too many seasons but remember he missed all of preseason with Covid.
Of course he couldn't have played the role Dobson played after we changed shape, but that wasn't the role he was ment to play. But saying that Bowyer got Pratley and Watson the wrong way round anyway.
Can we all agree that we are a long way off a top six team/squad but are moving in the right direction?
Yes. Certainly hope so on the basis of what has been said about Garner and his season at Swindon last year and reputation as a coach. Re: the signings, I just cannot get excited about them, and this will probably go for the rest to come, until I see them deliver. I’ve not really caught the excitement that some have from O’Connell and now Mandela, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think they can add something.
Questions still remain re the quality of a lot of what we have left from last season as well. Yes, I think the likes of Dobson, CBT and Fraser can do better with better players, but I still think we’ve got dead weight in DJ and Gilbey, and I am not 100% convinced Aneke and Stockley are the men to score the goals to lead us out the league. After that, we can’t categorically say Lavelle is good enough, we just don’t know. So as you say, an awful lot of work to be done and I am sure like the rest of us, the proof will have to be in the results. As a result of the last 2 years, particularly the 2 false dawns under Adkins and then Jackson’s little run when he took over, the quality of the football overall and TS’ execution of his vision so far, it’s a 4/10
Good signing for Sheff Wed today, getting Will Vaulks from Cardiff. Very good player at this level.
Saw this and it did feel like a bit of a reality check after getting excited the last 2 days. I like our 2 signings so far but just a reminder this league is going to be difficult to even get top 6 in. Hopefully we have signings of this calibre on the way as well as picking the best of lower league 1/league 2 talent
I think a bit of reality has hit home, both at the club and as a fan base.
Denying there were major fuck ups over the last 18 months does no one any good.
You don't need to be captain hindsight to know a center half and a more suitable striker in January 21 would have probably got us in the play offs. Nor that the two windows since then have taken us backwards.
Now let's take that on the chin, it could have been much worse, it nearly was.
If lessons have been learnt (it's still if imo) and we now do it right, it may well take 18 months. I might take longer. But we have appointed an excellent manager (you could argue that his 3 predecessors were as well) and the early signs are we are giving him the tools to do his job. That's a change. The rhetoric has changed.
Blind faith? No. Evidence based assessment. So far so good, but there is a hell of a lot of work to do, Thomas's money to spend, and my life to waste.
Evidence based assessment?
We have appointed a League 2 manager. So far, we have signed two League 2 players ... one of which finished in 18th place.
It may work out. It may not. But it's hardly a proven recipe for delivering a Championship-ready (not Premier League-ready) team.
I remain as optimistic as the next fan ... but don't kid yourself. It's optimism, not evidence-based.
Where a signing's previous team finished in the table seems irrelevant to me. Are they supposed to stop all the goals going in, pass through the middle, go up the other end and score them as well? It's one player.
We finished 13th, what does that say about George Dobson this season... It says he was a great performer in a shit team. But if we were a club in the division above, signing him, there'd be people moaning that we were signing someone who finished 13th in the league below.
And complaints about which league signings are playing in. Unless academy staff and scouts have absolutely perfected every decision at every club in the country, there will be good players up and down the ladder. Some will prove too good for their division and move up, some will prove not good enough and move down. That's just the way it works.
We know that. We've had the worst possible crap from the Championship and absolute gems from the league below. It's football, it's about the player, the league doesn't have much to do with anything.
Correct.
But ... statistically, players in a lower League are not as good as players in higher League. There will be exceptions .. and, of course, a team's final finishing place is not simply down to one player.
On balance, if I was looking at getting out of the current Division, I would prefer to sign players (and a Manager) from a League or two above ... and even from the current League ... rather than from a League below.
Wouldn't you?
Well not necessarily. Players we signed from leagues above us include such glittering talents as Watson, Gunter and Arter whereas the likes of CBT (one of few bright spots last time out) show that there's unpolished gems still out there in League 2.
If a player drops from a higher level for lesser pay, there's normally a good reason for it and it's not always to the benefit of the team they sign for.
If every player we sign is a league two freebie then yes there's concerns there. But I doubt that will be the case.
Yeah if you look at our recruitment since Sandgaard has signed, we've signed loads of players from the league above who turned out to be flops. In fact, in our first season back in League 1 we could have easily fielded the following XI: Amos Gunter Inniss Famewo Purrington Watson Pratley Shinnie Williams Bogle Smyth
Every single one of those players played in a higher league the season above (admittedly 4 were relegated and 2 were out on loan but still). Gunter and Watson in particular were truly awful signings and both had been reasonable in the league above.
Watson was not an awful signing. Gunter was a stupid signing if we knew that Matthews was coming back anyway. Having both was silly.
Watson was really good in the last 3 months of last season. It probably was one too many seasons but remember he missed all of preseason with Covid.
Of course he couldn't have played the role Dobson played after we changed shape, but that wasn't the role he was ment to play. But saying that Bowyer got Pratley and Watson the wrong way round anyway.
Superb! Defending the Watson signing. Our flagship acquisition when we were going to 'blow this League out of the water'.
Good signing for Sheff Wed today, getting Will Vaulks from Cardiff. Very good player at this level.
Saw this and it did feel like a bit of a reality check after getting excited the last 2 days. I like our 2 signings so far but just a reminder this league is going to be difficult to even get top 6 in. Hopefully we have signings of this calibre on the way as well as picking the best of lower league 1/league 2 talent
I think a bit of reality has hit home, both at the club and as a fan base.
Denying there were major fuck ups over the last 18 months does no one any good.
You don't need to be captain hindsight to know a center half and a more suitable striker in January 21 would have probably got us in the play offs. Nor that the two windows since then have taken us backwards.
Now let's take that on the chin, it could have been much worse, it nearly was.
If lessons have been learnt (it's still if imo) and we now do it right, it may well take 18 months. I might take longer. But we have appointed an excellent manager (you could argue that his 3 predecessors were as well) and the early signs are we are giving him the tools to do his job. That's a change. The rhetoric has changed.
Blind faith? No. Evidence based assessment. So far so good, but there is a hell of a lot of work to do, Thomas's money to spend, and my life to waste.
Evidence based assessment?
We have appointed a League 2 manager. So far, we have signed two League 2 players ... one of which finished in 18th place.
It may work out. It may not. But it's hardly a proven recipe for delivering a Championship-ready (not Premier League-ready) team.
I remain as optimistic as the next fan ... but don't kid yourself. It's optimism, not evidence-based.
Where a signing's previous team finished in the table seems irrelevant to me. Are they supposed to stop all the goals going in, pass through the middle, go up the other end and score them as well? It's one player.
We finished 13th, what does that say about George Dobson this season... It says he was a great performer in a shit team. But if we were a club in the division above, signing him, there'd be people moaning that we were signing someone who finished 13th in the league below.
And complaints about which league signings are playing in. Unless academy staff and scouts have absolutely perfected every decision at every club in the country, there will be good players up and down the ladder. Some will prove too good for their division and move up, some will prove not good enough and move down. That's just the way it works.
We know that. We've had the worst possible crap from the Championship and absolute gems from the league below. It's football, it's about the player, the league doesn't have much to do with anything.
Correct.
But ... statistically, players in a lower League are not as good as players in higher League. There will be exceptions .. and, of course, a team's final finishing place is not simply down to one player.
On balance, if I was looking at getting out of the current Division, I would prefer to sign players (and a Manager) from a League or two above ... and even from the current League ... rather than from a League below.
Wouldn't you?
Well not necessarily. Players we signed from leagues above us include such glittering talents as Watson, Gunter and Arter whereas the likes of CBT (one of few bright spots last time out) show that there's unpolished gems still out there in League 2.
If a player drops from a higher level for lesser pay, there's normally a good reason for it and it's not always to the benefit of the team they sign for.
If every player we sign is a league two freebie then yes there's concerns there. But I doubt that will be the case.
Yeah if you look at our recruitment since Sandgaard has signed, we've signed loads of players from the league above who turned out to be flops. In fact, in our first season back in League 1 we could have easily fielded the following XI: Amos Gunter Inniss Famewo Purrington Watson Pratley Shinnie Williams Bogle Smyth
Every single one of those players played in a higher league the season above (admittedly 4 were relegated and 2 were out on loan but still). Gunter and Watson in particular were truly awful signings and both had been reasonable in the league above.
Watson was not an awful signing. Gunter was a stupid signing if we knew that Matthews was coming back anyway. Having both was silly.
Watson was really good in the last 3 months of last season. It probably was one too many seasons but remember he missed all of preseason with Covid.
Of course he couldn't have played the role Dobson played after we changed shape, but that wasn't the role he was ment to play. But saying that Bowyer got Pratley and Watson the wrong way round anyway.
Sorry, I have to disagree, he was an awful signing. Whether he was a decent signing on paper or not is irrelevant to how he turned out. He wasn't the worst but a few half decent games doesn't change the fact that over the course of two seasons he was a waste of firstly, a wage under the salary cap and then a squad place in a squad cap.
Yeah, better stop looking upwards. That road is littered with Watsons and Gunters.
And Bieliks, and Cullens and Gallaghers.
For fuck's sake ... we aren't getting out of this League (and beyond) with League 2 'maybes'.
All loan signings. Signing players on loan and not having a core group of hungry younger players isn't exactly getting Championship or Premiership ready either.
The problem with signing players from the Leagues above is they are mostly on the way down, as we've seen over the last couple of seasons.
Good signing for Sheff Wed today, getting Will Vaulks from Cardiff. Very good player at this level.
Saw this and it did feel like a bit of a reality check after getting excited the last 2 days. I like our 2 signings so far but just a reminder this league is going to be difficult to even get top 6 in. Hopefully we have signings of this calibre on the way as well as picking the best of lower league 1/league 2 talent
I think a bit of reality has hit home, both at the club and as a fan base.
Denying there were major fuck ups over the last 18 months does no one any good.
You don't need to be captain hindsight to know a center half and a more suitable striker in January 21 would have probably got us in the play offs. Nor that the two windows since then have taken us backwards.
Now let's take that on the chin, it could have been much worse, it nearly was.
If lessons have been learnt (it's still if imo) and we now do it right, it may well take 18 months. I might take longer. But we have appointed an excellent manager (you could argue that his 3 predecessors were as well) and the early signs are we are giving him the tools to do his job. That's a change. The rhetoric has changed.
Blind faith? No. Evidence based assessment. So far so good, but there is a hell of a lot of work to do, Thomas's money to spend, and my life to waste.
Evidence based assessment?
We have appointed a League 2 manager. So far, we have signed two League 2 players ... one of which finished in 18th place.
It may work out. It may not. But it's hardly a proven recipe for delivering a Championship-ready (not Premier League-ready) team.
I remain as optimistic as the next fan ... but don't kid yourself. It's optimism, not evidence-based.
Where a signing's previous team finished in the table seems irrelevant to me. Are they supposed to stop all the goals going in, pass through the middle, go up the other end and score them as well? It's one player.
We finished 13th, what does that say about George Dobson this season... It says he was a great performer in a shit team. But if we were a club in the division above, signing him, there'd be people moaning that we were signing someone who finished 13th in the league below.
And complaints about which league signings are playing in. Unless academy staff and scouts have absolutely perfected every decision at every club in the country, there will be good players up and down the ladder. Some will prove too good for their division and move up, some will prove not good enough and move down. That's just the way it works.
We know that. We've had the worst possible crap from the Championship and absolute gems from the league below. It's football, it's about the player, the league doesn't have much to do with anything.
Correct.
But ... statistically, players in a lower League are not as good as players in higher League. There will be exceptions .. and, of course, a team's final finishing place is not simply down to one player.
On balance, if I was looking at getting out of the current Division, I would prefer to sign players (and a Manager) from a League or two above ... and even from the current League ... rather than from a League below.
Wouldn't you?
Well not necessarily. Players we signed from leagues above us include such glittering talents as Watson, Gunter and Arter whereas the likes of CBT (one of few bright spots last time out) show that there's unpolished gems still out there in League 2.
If a player drops from a higher level for lesser pay, there's normally a good reason for it and it's not always to the benefit of the team they sign for.
If every player we sign is a league two freebie then yes there's concerns there. But I doubt that will be the case.
Yeah if you look at our recruitment since Sandgaard has signed, we've signed loads of players from the league above who turned out to be flops. In fact, in our first season back in League 1 we could have easily fielded the following XI: Amos Gunter Inniss Famewo Purrington Watson Pratley Shinnie Williams Bogle Smyth
Every single one of those players played in a higher league the season above (admittedly 4 were relegated and 2 were out on loan but still). Gunter and Watson in particular were truly awful signings and both had been reasonable in the league above.
Watson was not an awful signing. Gunter was a stupid signing if we knew that Matthews was coming back anyway. Having both was silly.
Watson was really good in the last 3 months of last season. It probably was one too many seasons but remember he missed all of preseason with Covid.
Of course he couldn't have played the role Dobson played after we changed shape, but that wasn't the role he was ment to play. But saying that Bowyer got Pratley and Watson the wrong way round anyway.
I’m sorry, but Watson was an utterly dog shit signing - the bloke could barely move. He was also on decent wedge.
Yeah, better stop looking upwards. That road is littered with Watsons and Gunters.
And Bieliks, and Cullens and Gallaghers.
For fuck's sake ... we aren't getting out of this League (and beyond) with League 2 'maybes'.
The good thing, as I see it, is that the 2 players we've signed so far are young (mid 20's) and hungry for success. They are not like Watson or Gunter who have done it all & have nothing left to give.
Can we ban the word hungry? The number of players we have had that didn't want to do well, in the last 30 odd years, can be counted on one hand.
Even the likes of oxo man, Francis etc did well post Charlton. Some were too old, some were just shit.
You are of course correct, but I also do think it's relevant to more players than perhaps you think. I certainly don't think players like Francis fit into their category, even the Brighton duo the other season wouldn't.
I do think it's relevant to Gunter who needs a team to continue playing at International level, and especially for Watson where we were just in the right location for him to continue earning a wage. Don't think it would be fair to say he didn't want to win football matches, but I'd certainly argue those sorts of player weren't particularly interested in personal development. Younger players ultimately generally have time on their side to improve and reach their goals, I do think those characters are massive in the dressing room.
To counter that, whatever anyone thinks of Pratley I don't think you can honestly say he didn't want to win every football match he played in. That's where I totally agree with what you're saying, it's the players character that determines how they react to certain situations, especially when things aren't going well rather than not being "hungry enough".
Can people please stop comparing our business to other clubs? Clubs have different transfer strategies which work for them. Prime example being Ipswich trying to buy the league last summer. That worked really well didn’t it.
2 positive signings with I expect more to come. Pleased with it so far. Honestly some of the reactions from our fans is embarrasing, they're never going to be happy until TS is gone. Which is sad really.
It's good to see the fire in the belly of CL members and that apathy haven't taken over. Unlike Jack Grealish I have my shin pads high and my gum shield in as there are some strong challenges coming in.
Wigan achieved success by paying the best wages and enticing higher quality players to the mediocre League 1; Promotion achieved.
Ipswich like Wigan took the SAS approach of getting in early and paying big wages for the 3rd tier; 12th Position.
Rotherham the yo-yo team were more functional and despite not scoring against Charlton based their success on a solid defence and good relationships all over the field.
Sunderland with their nemesis Cafc not in the play off final finally gave their big support a good weekend at Wembley. Had an energetic side that just got over the line.
Good signing for Sheff Wed today, getting Will Vaulks from Cardiff. Very good player at this level.
Saw this and it did feel like a bit of a reality check after getting excited the last 2 days. I like our 2 signings so far but just a reminder this league is going to be difficult to even get top 6 in. Hopefully we have signings of this calibre on the way as well as picking the best of lower league 1/league 2 talent
It's Wednesday who need the reality check! More than £125m in debt. For context, Derby was about half that when they went into admin IIRC. Living way beyond their means and have been for years. I wouldn't want to have their problems. At least we have a responsible owner trying to look out for our future.
At our current rate we would be there in 8-10 years but have a responsible owner looking out for our future. Wednesday have spaffed a lot of money but football finances outside the PL are broken so for larger non PL clubs they are all beholdent to their benefactors
If the current rate you used for your forecast includes the effect of the pandemic, then it's not typical, but that doesn't detract from the points you made about the failed business model of Club's striving to regain their lost Premiership status. Something has to be done about it.
If either Chansiri or Sandgaard decided to throw in the towel, new benefactors would have to be found to keep their respective Club's afloat. Not always easy as Derby are finding to their ever increasing cost.
I suspect Wednesday maybe saddling themselves with a higher wage bill if acquiring players from higher leagues, but I agree we are going to need some potentially higher calibre signings too to add to our mix, a couple being sourced from the loans market perhaps.
For every success like *Sorba Thomas, there are 10 Stuart Fleetwood's that don't step up. Fleetwood scored for fun in Conference for Forest Green Rovers before his move to Cafc where he only played the odd cup game.
Ipswich didn't succeed last season but Wigan did by paying the best wages.
It's not an exact science.
*I remember feeling disappointed that we didn't get him. More a gut feeling as I had seen Sorba play for Boreham wood on BT and felt he would fit in.
No guarantees with signings look at Mullins… banging them in at Cambridge league 2 and then money bags Wrexham of the national league snap him up and he scored less in the lower league
it’s all a lottery - like Morgan has he really developed over the last few years ? Doherty?
You can’t underestimate the role of a coach - Adkins out of touch - JJ inexperienced
Yeah, better stop looking upwards. That road is littered with Watsons and Gunters.
And Bieliks, and Cullens and Gallaghers.
For fuck's sake ... we aren't getting out of this League (and beyond) with League 2 'maybes'.
Three loans, something we expect to see used this window based on what TS has said. At one point he said 5 or 6 of them, and we can be almost certain they’ll come from either the Prem or Championship.
I'd expect most loans to be later in the window even for U23s , clubs will want them in for a chunk of preseason first before making decisions. Hopefully we don't leave it right to deadline day though on that front.
LCB and left back next on the list for me please , wouldn't be surprised if the left back is one of the loanees though.
Comments
Watson was really good in the last 3 months of last season. It probably was one too many seasons but remember he missed all of preseason with Covid.
Of course he couldn't have played the role Dobson played after we changed shape, but that wasn't the role he was ment to play. But saying that Bowyer got Pratley and Watson the wrong way round anyway.
Evidence-based, me.
Questions still remain re the quality of a lot of what we have left from last season as well. Yes, I think the likes of Dobson, CBT and Fraser can do better with better players, but I still think we’ve got dead weight in DJ and Gilbey, and I am not 100% convinced Aneke and Stockley are the men to score the goals to lead us out the league. After that, we can’t categorically say Lavelle is good enough, we just don’t know. So as you say, an awful lot of work to be done and I am sure like the rest of us, the proof will have to be in the results. As a result of the last 2 years, particularly the 2 false dawns under Adkins and then Jackson’s little run when he took over, the quality of the football overall and TS’ execution of his vision so far, it’s a 4/10
I'll stop now.
I don't think you need me as the middle man. I cant win!
The problem with signing players from the Leagues above is they are mostly on the way down, as we've seen over the last couple of seasons.
Except we don't, because that literally never happened.
Even the likes of oxo man, Francis etc did well post Charlton. Some were too old, some were just shit.
I do think it's relevant to Gunter who needs a team to continue playing at International level, and especially for Watson where we were just in the right location for him to continue earning a wage. Don't think it would be fair to say he didn't want to win football matches, but I'd certainly argue those sorts of player weren't particularly interested in personal development. Younger players ultimately generally have time on their side to improve and reach their goals, I do think those characters are massive in the dressing room.
To counter that, whatever anyone thinks of Pratley I don't think you can honestly say he didn't want to win every football match he played in. That's where I totally agree with what you're saying, it's the players character that determines how they react to certain situations, especially when things aren't going well rather than not being "hungry enough".
Wigan achieved success by paying the best wages and enticing higher quality players to the mediocre League 1; Promotion achieved.
Ipswich like Wigan took the SAS approach of getting in early and paying big wages for the 3rd tier; 12th Position.
Rotherham the yo-yo team were more functional and despite not scoring against Charlton based their success on a solid defence and good relationships all over the field.
Sunderland with their nemesis Cafc not in the play off final finally gave their big support a good weekend at Wembley. Had an energetic side that just got over the line.
If either Chansiri or Sandgaard decided to throw in the towel, new benefactors would have to be found to keep their respective Club's afloat. Not always easy as Derby are finding to their ever increasing cost.
I suspect Wednesday maybe saddling themselves with a higher wage bill if acquiring players from higher leagues, but I agree we are going to need some potentially higher calibre signings too to add to our mix, a couple being sourced from the loans market perhaps.
Fleetwood scored for fun in Conference for Forest Green Rovers before his move to Cafc where he only played the odd cup game.
Ipswich didn't succeed last season but Wigan did by paying the best wages.
It's not an exact science.
*I remember feeling disappointed that we didn't get him. More a gut feeling as I had seen Sorba play for Boreham wood on BT and felt he would fit in.
it’s all a lottery - like Morgan has he really developed over the last few years ? Doherty?
LCB and left back next on the list for me please , wouldn't be surprised if the left back is one of the loanees though.