Surely a person is only ‘English’ if for whatever reason they choose to call themselves ‘English’. Babies are not born with ‘made in England’ stamped on their bum.
Someone born and raised in England, speaking English, is very unlikely to consider themselves as something other than English. Certainly the chances are higher than our hypothetical baby one day waking up and deciding he is French.
Obviously it is possible that if our hypothetical child is raised by parents from another culture he could identify with that as well.
You have a point, and what I like about it is the term ‘consider themselves’. I had the experience you describe at the start of your post, but don’t consider myself to be English.
Go on then, I'll bite. What do you consider yourself to be?
For good or ill I consider myself to be me. Nationality is only a technical consideration in order to live within the rules one is born into.
Although I appreciate we live in an era of self-identification above all, 'English' as a noun refers to the people of England so if you live here, you are English
English as a noun refers to a language.
The adjective refers to the language, the noun refers to the people.
Surely a person is only ‘English’ if for whatever reason they choose to call themselves ‘English’. Babies are not born with ‘made in England’ stamped on their bum.
Someone born and raised in England, speaking English, is very unlikely to consider themselves as something other than English. Certainly the chances are higher than our hypothetical baby one day waking up and deciding he is French.
Obviously it is possible that if our hypothetical child is raised by parents from another culture he could identify with that as well.
You have a point, and what I like about it is the term ‘consider themselves’. I had the experience you describe at the start of your post, but don’t consider myself to be English.
Go on then, I'll bite. What do you consider yourself to be?
For good or ill I consider myself to be me. Nationality is only a technical consideration in order to live within the rules one is born into.
Technical consideration or not - it is still a legal fact.
How one identifies themselves is up to them, as we see in many different manners in this day and age.
But there are some things that cannot be changed unless you’ve got access to a time machine.
Its the equivalent of me saying I wasn’t born in England - even though I was, and I can’t amend that even if I wanted to.
of, relating to, or characteristic of England or its inhabitants, institutions, etc.
belonging or relating to, or spoken or written in, the English language:a high school English class;an English translation of a Spanish novel.
noun
(used with a plural verb) the people of England collectively, especially as distinguished from the Scots, Welsh, and Irish.
the Germanic language of the British Isles, widespread and standard also in the U.S. and most of the British Commonwealth, historically termed Old English (c450–c1150), Middle English (c1150–c1475), and Modern English (after c1475). Abbreviation: E
verb (used with object)
to translate into English:to English Euripides.
to adopt (a foreign word) into English; Anglicize.
(sometimes lowercase)Sports. to impart English to (a ball).
So the word can be both a noun and an adjective.
Interestingly this take as a noun says 'the people of England collectively', but it does not include the requirement to be living in England in that definition. So I take from that a person might be born in Bridlington but live in Rwanda but declare themselves as part of 'the people of England collectively'. Not saying 'because I am in Rwanda (perhaps for a short time) I am Rwandese', similar to somebody born in Afghanistan living in Cirencester saying 'I am not English despite being in this territory'.
Surely a person is only ‘English’ if for whatever reason they choose to call themselves ‘English’. Babies are not born with ‘made in England’ stamped on their bum.
Someone born and raised in England, speaking English, is very unlikely to consider themselves as something other than English. Certainly the chances are higher than our hypothetical baby one day waking up and deciding he is French.
Obviously it is possible that if our hypothetical child is raised by parents from another culture he could identify with that as well.
You have a point, and what I like about it is the term ‘consider themselves’. I had the experience you describe at the start of your post, but don’t consider myself to be English.
Go on then, I'll bite. What do you consider yourself to be?
Everyone else resisted biting for more than 2 hours
If the referee refused to restart the game until he was removed, I don't see what else the club were supposed to do.
I don’t think that him being ejected is the only issue of course he’s embarrassed to have been wrongly accused of being a racist …but the issue with the club is they put out the false statement saying he’d been arrested that upped the interest level then some idiot posted a picture of him.
I believe he wants a apology from the club for the printing of incorrect information that has damaged his reputation.
99.99% of people have forgotten about it to get on with their lives. This guy seems intent on making something out of it. I don’t really see what the club did wrong - it’s the person who put it on social media who is in the wrong. until he started going off on Twitter I had no idea who he was and can’t say I cared but his insistence on getting an apology is what’s keeping it on the public eye! He had had a call from the head of communication who has apologised for what happened but now that apparently isn’t enough.
Where does it stop?
Very easy statement and approach to take when it’s not you it involves
As has been said - what negative outcome is there? Most people don’t really care in the grand scheme of things and the only person keeping this in the public eye is Nic himself. if anything he’ll be better known for being a turd that won’t flush than the original incident (that was caused by another fan and NOT the club)
Mud sticks, reputation, Chinese whispers, with your professional links to the club would you be as happy to be the person incorrectly identified, ejected and humiliated in front of your son and others around you at the time, would you dismiss it as a simple error and move on? Staff paid by the club made the decision to remove him, they are responsible for that error, we don’t know what was said by TR to him, but clearly Nic was unhappy with it and has stated he felt he was treated with a blasé attitude.
So does anyone (without going into explicit detail) have any insight into what non-racist discrimination consists of to be worthy of arrest?
Based on nationality, rather than race?
Is that an arrestible offence? Genuine question.
Descrimination still.
Yeah just checked the CPS website and calling someone for their nationality is in there in the football chant section
so if somebody called me English that would be classed as discrimination? or does it have to have a derogative term afterwards? adding the word tosser after the word English for example?
Has to be threatening or abusive based on race, colour, nationality or national origin. So yeah I'd guess you'd need a derogative term in there to make it an offence
I bet that happens alot in other leagues especially in the UK.
Yeah, I've heard plenty of "welsh/scottish/Irish xxxx" over the years, which under that law would see you arrested. I wonder how many are aware that's actually an offence?
Indeed.
to be fair, I'm pretty sure we've all heard similar 'racism' against the English from Welsh and Scots so lets not label this an English thing. My best friend moved away from Wales because of racism (not called that then) she suffered constantly in her early twenties. This sort of thing twenty years ago wouldn't be considered racism and I think that's why many don't realise its now an offence. Most ppl think of racism as white against black or black against white. People need to get used to the modern world we live in whether you agree with it or not.
I met this sort of thing in North Wales a lot. Went I to a working man's club one Sunday and ordered our beers . Immediately everyone stopped talking in English and started to talk in Welsh (I assume) . Ignorant bunch.
So it is not just on this message board you are unpopular then.
Surely a person is only ‘English’ if for whatever reason they choose to call themselves ‘English’. Babies are not born with ‘made in England’ stamped on their bum.
Someone born and raised in England, speaking English, is very unlikely to consider themselves as something other than English. Certainly the chances are higher than our hypothetical baby one day waking up and deciding he is French.
Obviously it is possible that if our hypothetical child is raised by parents from another culture he could identify with that as well.
You have a point, and what I like about it is the term ‘consider themselves’. I had the experience you describe at the start of your post, but don’t consider myself to be English.
Go on then, I'll bite. What do you consider yourself to be?
For good or ill I consider myself to be me. Nationality is only a technical consideration in order to live within the rules one is born into.
You're ok to say you live in Lee though I presume? So If someone asks where do you live, I presume you don't reply, I consider where I live to be a technical consideration.
Surely a person is only ‘English’ if for whatever reason they choose to call themselves ‘English’. Babies are not born with ‘made in England’ stamped on their bum.
Someone born and raised in England, speaking English, is very unlikely to consider themselves as something other than English. Certainly the chances are higher than our hypothetical baby one day waking up and deciding he is French.
Obviously it is possible that if our hypothetical child is raised by parents from another culture he could identify with that as well.
You have a point, and what I like about it is the term ‘consider themselves’. I had the experience you describe at the start of your post, but don’t consider myself to be English.
Go on then, I'll bite. What do you consider yourself to be?
For good or ill I consider myself to be me. Nationality is only a technical consideration in order to live within the rules one is born into.
You're ok to say you live in Lee though I presume? So If someone asks where do you live, I presume you don't reply, I consider where I live to be a technical consideration.
Surely a person is only ‘English’ if for whatever reason they choose to call themselves ‘English’. Babies are not born with ‘made in England’ stamped on their bum.
Someone born and raised in England, speaking English, is very unlikely to consider themselves as something other than English. Certainly the chances are higher than our hypothetical baby one day waking up and deciding he is French.
Obviously it is possible that if our hypothetical child is raised by parents from another culture he could identify with that as well.
You have a point, and what I like about it is the term ‘consider themselves’. I had the experience you describe at the start of your post, but don’t consider myself to be English.
Go on then, I'll bite. What do you consider yourself to be?
For good or ill I consider myself to be me. Nationality is only a technical consideration in order to live within the rules one is born into.
You're ok to say you live in Lee though I presume? So If someone asks where do you live, I presume you don't reply, I consider where I live to be a technical consideration.
I am happy to say I live in Lee. Technically that means, amongst other things, that I pay my council tax to Lewisham, and abide by local road restrictions in the area.
Surely a person is only ‘English’ if for whatever reason they choose to call themselves ‘English’. Babies are not born with ‘made in England’ stamped on their bum.
Someone born and raised in England, speaking English, is very unlikely to consider themselves as something other than English. Certainly the chances are higher than our hypothetical baby one day waking up and deciding he is French.
Obviously it is possible that if our hypothetical child is raised by parents from another culture he could identify with that as well.
You have a point, and what I like about it is the term ‘consider themselves’. I had the experience you describe at the start of your post, but don’t consider myself to be English.
Go on then, I'll bite. What do you consider yourself to be?
For good or ill I consider myself to be me. Nationality is only a technical consideration in order to live within the rules one is born into.
You're ok to say you live in Lee though I presume? So If someone asks where do you live, I presume you don't reply, I consider where I live to be a technical consideration.
Hmmm, perhaps Seth is ashamed to be English?
I have not mentioned pride or shame at all. 'Shame' is a concept you have introduced. Being born between Crayford and Erith does not confer on me the honour of being 'English', it was my accident of birth, neither something to be proud of or ashamed about.
Surely a person is only ‘English’ if for whatever reason they choose to call themselves ‘English’. Babies are not born with ‘made in England’ stamped on their bum.
Someone born and raised in England, speaking English, is very unlikely to consider themselves as something other than English. Certainly the chances are higher than our hypothetical baby one day waking up and deciding he is French.
Obviously it is possible that if our hypothetical child is raised by parents from another culture he could identify with that as well.
You have a point, and what I like about it is the term ‘consider themselves’. I had the experience you describe at the start of your post, but don’t consider myself to be English.
Go on then, I'll bite. What do you consider yourself to be?
For good or ill I consider myself to be me. Nationality is only a technical consideration in order to live within the rules one is born into.
You're ok to say you live in Lee though I presume? So If someone asks where do you live, I presume you don't reply, I consider where I live to be a technical consideration.
Hmmm, perhaps Seth is ashamed to be English?
I have not mentioned pride or shame at all. 'Shame' is a concept you have introduced. Being born between Crayford and Erith does not confer on me the honour of being 'English', it was my accident of birth, neither something to be proud of or ashamed about.
of, relating to, or characteristic of England or its inhabitants, institutions, etc.
belonging or relating to, or spoken or written in, the English language:a high school English class;an English translation of a Spanish novel.
noun
(used with a plural verb) the people of England collectively, especially as distinguished from the Scots, Welsh, and Irish.
the Germanic language of the British Isles, widespread and standard also in the U.S. and most of the British Commonwealth, historically termed Old English (c450–c1150), Middle English (c1150–c1475), and Modern English (after c1475). Abbreviation: E
verb (used with object)
to translate into English:to English Euripides.
to adopt (a foreign word) into English; Anglicize.
(sometimes lowercase)Sports. to impart English to (a ball).
So the word can be both a noun and an adjective.
Interestingly this take as a noun says 'the people of England collectively', but it does not include the requirement to be living in England in that definition. So I take from that a person might be born in Bridlington but live in Rwanda but declare themselves as part of 'the people of England collectively'. Not saying 'because I am in Rwanda (perhaps for a short time) I am Rwandese', similar to somebody born in Afghanistan living in Cirencester saying 'I am not English despite being in this territory'.
You're wrong, its neither helpful nor interesting.
Surely a person is only ‘English’ if for whatever reason they choose to call themselves ‘English’. Babies are not born with ‘made in England’ stamped on their bum.
Someone born and raised in England, speaking English, is very unlikely to consider themselves as something other than English. Certainly the chances are higher than our hypothetical baby one day waking up and deciding he is French.
Obviously it is possible that if our hypothetical child is raised by parents from another culture he could identify with that as well.
You have a point, and what I like about it is the term ‘consider themselves’. I had the experience you describe at the start of your post, but don’t consider myself to be English.
Go on then, I'll bite. What do you consider yourself to be?
For good or ill I consider myself to be me. Nationality is only a technical consideration in order to live within the rules one is born into.
Although I appreciate we live in an era of self-identification above all, 'English' as a noun refers to the people of England so if you live here, you are English
You speak for yourself I'm me and today I'm feeling Rwandan.
blame twitter, it’s a shit stain on society just like facemeta.combook and that other one with the dancing and people dying all over the shop trying to juggle petrol with a candle on their head or jumping the Grand Canyon on an electric roller skate.
The social media world* is an oxymoron. It’s anti social. It attracts the sort people waiting to be angered or outraged with a level of stupidity that does raise serious doubts about the level of humanity’s gene pool.
then blame the guy who thought outing the wrongly accused was the thing to do, why isn’t that criminal or actionable, liable is?
then blame the shits that posted crap at this innocent guy without any facts - just outrage and anger all bottled up sitting behind their keyboards - disgraceful
then blame the actual racist and the people around him that watched the wrong guy get ejected and didn’t identify this arsehole
then blame the stewards and the coppers, mrs hall from 41 high street and anyone else in the interweb sphere.
Oh and don’t forget to blame the club
*he said without irony on social media
It is what you make it. For example I have an account just for following news and info about pro cycling. I also have an account for Jimmy Seed’s sister Minnie, and have had learned some useful info about her through the account. Never see anything unpleasant on either account. Hopefully never will.
I agree, I don’t use it, so I don’t see anything unpleasant either but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Whilst you are fortunate and untouched by the horrors of social media, it is a fact, from cyber bullying, teenage suicides, challenge deaths and organizing riots and coups from one extreme to the spread of conspiracy theories, the angry unwashed and easily outraged keyboard warriors at the other end of the spectrum……including the apparent spite and abuse generated towards the guy who was wrongly “outed”
I remain content with my generalization of the twittersphere and still believe the world was a better place without it, but am also very happy that you enjoy a peaceful corner of the ethernet.
Surely a person is only ‘English’ if for whatever reason they choose to call themselves ‘English’. Babies are not born with ‘made in England’ stamped on their bum.
Someone born and raised in England, speaking English, is very unlikely to consider themselves as something other than English. Certainly the chances are higher than our hypothetical baby one day waking up and deciding he is French.
Obviously it is possible that if our hypothetical child is raised by parents from another culture he could identify with that as well.
You have a point, and what I like about it is the term ‘consider themselves’. I had the experience you describe at the start of your post, but don’t consider myself to be English.
Go on then, I'll bite. What do you consider yourself to be?
For good or ill I consider myself to be me. Nationality is only a technical consideration in order to live within the rules one is born into.
You're ok to say you live in Lee though I presume? So If someone asks where do you live, I presume you don't reply, I consider where I live to be a technical consideration.
Hmmm, perhaps Seth is ashamed to be English?
I have not mentioned pride or shame at all. 'Shame' is a concept you have introduced. Being born between Crayford and Erith does not confer on me the honour of being 'English', it was my accident of birth, neither something to be proud of or ashamed about.
The ‘accident of birth’ thing only goes so far though.
Through living in this country for most/all of your life (an assumption I’m making), there will be certain English traits, characteristics, habits, mannerisms that will rub off and develop. Those are things that one can feel pride/shame in.
A love of football and fan culture (which again I’m assuming you partake in, and therefore would have some pride in) is something that goes hand in hand with English culture.
I find it hard to believe that if someone asks you in a formal, in-person setting “what nationality are you?” that you would respond with “Well, I’m just me”. At least not with a straight face, anyway.
of, relating to, or characteristic of England or its inhabitants, institutions, etc.
belonging or relating to, or spoken or written in, the English language:a high school English class;an English translation of a Spanish novel.
noun
(used with a plural verb) the people of England collectively, especially as distinguished from the Scots, Welsh, and Irish.
the Germanic language of the British Isles, widespread and standard also in the U.S. and most of the British Commonwealth, historically termed Old English (c450–c1150), Middle English (c1150–c1475), and Modern English (after c1475). Abbreviation: E
verb (used with object)
to translate into English:to English Euripides.
to adopt (a foreign word) into English; Anglicize.
(sometimes lowercase)Sports. to impart English to (a ball).
So the word can be both a noun and an adjective.
Interestingly this take as a noun says 'the people of England collectively', but it does not include the requirement to be living in England in that definition. So I take from that a person might be born in Bridlington but live in Rwanda but declare themselves as part of 'the people of England collectively'. Not saying 'because I am in Rwanda (perhaps for a short time) I am Rwandese', similar to somebody born in Afghanistan living in Cirencester saying 'I am not English despite being in this territory'.
It was helpful in terms of confirming my original point of noun referring to the people and adjective referring to the language...
Surely a person is only ‘English’ if for whatever reason they choose to call themselves ‘English’. Babies are not born with ‘made in England’ stamped on their bum.
Someone born and raised in England, speaking English, is very unlikely to consider themselves as something other than English. Certainly the chances are higher than our hypothetical baby one day waking up and deciding he is French.
Obviously it is possible that if our hypothetical child is raised by parents from another culture he could identify with that as well.
You have a point, and what I like about it is the term ‘consider themselves’. I had the experience you describe at the start of your post, but don’t consider myself to be English.
Go on then, I'll bite. What do you consider yourself to be?
For good or ill I consider myself to be me. Nationality is only a technical consideration in order to live within the rules one is born into.
You're ok to say you live in Lee though I presume? So If someone asks where do you live, I presume you don't reply, I consider where I live to be a technical consideration.
I am happy to say I live in Lee. Technically that means, amongst other things, that I pay my council tax to Lewisham, and abide by local road restrictions in the area.
Oh God Seth, don't bring the LTNs into it, this thread has gone way off topic already without adding another area of controversy into it as well.
Surely a person is only ‘English’ if for whatever reason they choose to call themselves ‘English’. Babies are not born with ‘made in England’ stamped on their bum.
Someone born and raised in England, speaking English, is very unlikely to consider themselves as something other than English. Certainly the chances are higher than our hypothetical baby one day waking up and deciding he is French.
Obviously it is possible that if our hypothetical child is raised by parents from another culture he could identify with that as well.
You have a point, and what I like about it is the term ‘consider themselves’. I had the experience you describe at the start of your post, but don’t consider myself to be English.
Go on then, I'll bite. What do you consider yourself to be?
For good or ill I consider myself to be me. Nationality is only a technical consideration in order to live within the rules one is born into.
You're ok to say you live in Lee though I presume? So If someone asks where do you live, I presume you don't reply, I consider where I live to be a technical consideration.
Hmmm, perhaps Seth is ashamed to be English?
I have not mentioned pride or shame at all. 'Shame' is a concept you have introduced. Being born between Crayford and Erith does not confer on me the honour of being 'English', it was my accident of birth, neither something to be proud of or ashamed about.
I find it hard to believe that if someone asks you in a formal, in-person setting “what nationality are you?” that you would respond with “Well, I’m just me”. At least not with a straight face, anyway.
But this is fishing for a response from total strangers over the internet, totally different.
blame twitter, it’s a shit stain on society just like facemeta.combook and that other one with the dancing and people dying all over the shop trying to juggle petrol with a candle on their head or jumping the Grand Canyon on an electric roller skate.
The social media world* is an oxymoron. It’s anti social. It attracts the sort people waiting to be angered or outraged with a level of stupidity that does raise serious doubts about the level of humanity’s gene pool.
then blame the guy who thought outing the wrongly accused was the thing to do, why isn’t that criminal or actionable, liable is?
then blame the shits that posted crap at this innocent guy without any facts - just outrage and anger all bottled up sitting behind their keyboards - disgraceful
then blame the actual racist and the people around him that watched the wrong guy get ejected and didn’t identify this arsehole
then blame the stewards and the coppers, mrs hall from 41 high street and anyone else in the interweb sphere.
Oh and don’t forget to blame the club
*he said without irony on social media
It is what you make it. For example I have an account just for following news and info about pro cycling. I also have an account for Jimmy Seed’s sister Minnie, and have had learned some useful info about her through the account. Never see anything unpleasant on either account. Hopefully never will.
I agree, I don’t use it, so I don’t see anything unpleasant either but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Whilst you are fortunate and untouched by the horrors of social media, it is a fact, from cyber bullying, teenage suicides, challenge deaths and organizing riots and coups from one extreme to the spread of conspiracy theories, the angry unwashed and easily outraged keyboard warriors at the other end of the spectrum……including the apparent spite and abuse generated towards the guy who was wrongly “outed”
I remain content with my generalization of the twittersphere and still believe the world was a better place without it, but am also very happy that you enjoy a peaceful corner of the ethernet.
I see both sides, it’s just my cycling and Minnie Seed accounts that are abuse free zones. The dark side isn’t pleasant, particularly when stuff is made up by trolls and spread around.
You end up developing a thick skin in the end, but it’s a bit like having two personas; the real one, and the false persona that the trolls created.
From what I can see, the hijacking comes from everybody piling on to abuse him.
He initially made a valid point about nationality not always being cut and dry. This then triggers a bunch of his haters and the thread is derailed.
I concede that there is a fair amount of "not helping himself", but time and again I see this poster being effectively bullied.
Oh don't be so silly. If you say stupid things you'll get challenged, hence me writing this reply to your post.
If you say stupid things just to get some attention (which is where the derailing comes from), well, more the fool people getting involved, but they will still get challenged.
I file this whole incident as chapter 3,653 in my book of "Why Twitter is a cesspit." It's just a place for people to vent their spleens and throw a load of hate around, the modern day equivalent of the peasants and local yokels carrying flaming torches and pitchforks.
I really feel for the guy, but it's not the club's fault. Bet he got some pretty nasty messages on Twitter, and for a normal person with no media training etc it must be incredibly stressful to deal with. I certainly don't know if I could handle being in the spotlight like that for a crime that is up there with the very worst crimes you can commit in 2022, whilst being innocent.
Comments
How one identifies themselves is up to them, as we see in many different manners in this day and age.
Its the equivalent of me saying I wasn’t born in England - even though I was, and I can’t amend that even if I wanted to.
English
novel.
So the word can be both a noun and an adjective.
Interestingly this take as a noun says 'the people of England collectively', but it does not include the requirement to be living in England in that definition.
So I take from that a person might be born in Bridlington but live in Rwanda but declare themselves as part of 'the people of England collectively'. Not saying 'because I am in Rwanda (perhaps for a short time) I am Rwandese', similar to somebody born in Afghanistan living in Cirencester saying 'I am not English despite being in this territory'.
So If someone asks where do you live, I presume you don't reply, I consider where I live to be a technical consideration.
Technically that means, amongst other things, that I pay my council tax to Lewisham, and abide by local road restrictions in the area.
'Shame' is a concept you have introduced.
Being born between Crayford and Erith does not confer on me the honour of being 'English', it was my accident of birth, neither something to be proud of or ashamed about.
I remain content with my generalization of the twittersphere and still believe the world was a better place without it, but am also very happy that you enjoy a peaceful corner of the ethernet.
Through living in this country for most/all of your life (an assumption I’m making), there will be certain English traits, characteristics, habits, mannerisms that will rub off and develop. Those are things that one can feel pride/shame in.
It gets tedious after a while.
He initially made a valid point about nationality not always being cut and dry. This then triggers a bunch of his haters and the thread is derailed.
I concede that there is a fair amount of "not helping himself", but time and again I see this poster being effectively bullied.
If you say stupid things just to get some attention (which is where the derailing comes from), well, more the fool people getting involved, but they will still get challenged.
I file this whole incident as chapter 3,653 in my book of "Why Twitter is a cesspit." It's just a place for people to vent their spleens and throw a load of hate around, the modern day equivalent of the peasants and local yokels carrying flaming torches and pitchforks.
I really feel for the guy, but it's not the club's fault. Bet he got some pretty nasty messages on Twitter, and for a normal person with no media training etc it must be incredibly stressful to deal with. I certainly don't know if I could handle being in the spotlight like that for a crime that is up there with the very worst crimes you can commit in 2022, whilst being innocent.