POST-MATCH THREAD: Charlton Athletic V Sheffield Wednesday: Saturday 25th February 2023, KO 3.00P

LargeAddick

is there any footage of this incident where some think a Wednesday player should have seen red? In real time I didn’t even think it worthy of a yellow.

Dazzler21

LargeAddick said:

is there any footage of this incident where some think a Wednesday player should have seen red? In real time I didn’t even think it worthy of a yellow.

The from behind, in the air, two footed,  jumped in challenge wasn't worthy of a yellow? It should have been a red hands down.

hoof_it_up_to_benty

NabySarr said:

KingKinsella said:

NabySarr said:

Holden got it wrong. 3-5-2 doesn’t work for us at the moment. Rak-Sakyi is by far our best player so he needs to be in his best role to get the best out of him. Don’t want him getting the ball centrally or too deep like he was yesterday. Should have changed to a back 4 and got JRS out on the right. 

Wollacott is better than AMB. If we’re trying to get him to sign a new contract then fair enough keep playing him but even if AMB is a better shot stopper his distribution is terrible compared to Wollacott so I wouldn’t have him as number 1 next season but it would be good to keep both 

Surely shot stopping is rated more highly than distribution. A goal keeper that never lets  shot in-sounds perfect. He can kick it wherever he likes, because theres a "something -nil" scoreline.

It is but personally I think Wollacott is a better all-round goalkeeper as his shot-stopping was also very good earlier in the season and the rest of his game is a lot stronger than AMBs. We conceded possession often yesterday from AMB kicking it no where near our players or straight out for a throw in. We have nothing to play for so I’d keep playing AMB for his development and to hopefully convince him to sign a contract but if both are here next season I would start Wollacott unless AMB improves a lot at the rest of his game 

I think AMB is a better keeper - more commanding and confident. Distribution needs work.

Don't feel Wollacott is as decisive or commanding in the box.

They're both decent keepers.

Leuth

hoof_it_up_to_benty said:

NabySarr said:

KingKinsella said:

NabySarr said:

Holden got it wrong. 3-5-2 doesn’t work for us at the moment. Rak-Sakyi is by far our best player so he needs to be in his best role to get the best out of him. Don’t want him getting the ball centrally or too deep like he was yesterday. Should have changed to a back 4 and got JRS out on the right. 

Wollacott is better than AMB. If we’re trying to get him to sign a new contract then fair enough keep playing him but even if AMB is a better shot stopper his distribution is terrible compared to Wollacott so I wouldn’t have him as number 1 next season but it would be good to keep both 

Surely shot stopping is rated more highly than distribution. A goal keeper that never lets  shot in-sounds perfect. He can kick it wherever he likes, because theres a "something -nil" scoreline.

It is but personally I think Wollacott is a better all-round goalkeeper as his shot-stopping was also very good earlier in the season and the rest of his game is a lot stronger than AMBs. We conceded possession often yesterday from AMB kicking it no where near our players or straight out for a throw in. We have nothing to play for so I’d keep playing AMB for his development and to hopefully convince him to sign a contract but if both are here next season I would start Wollacott unless AMB improves a lot at the rest of his game 

I think AMB is a better keeper - more commanding and confident. Distribution needs work.

Don't feel Wollacott is as decisive or commanding in the box.

They're both decent keepers.

What? Wollacott is extremely decisive and commanding. He comes for everything and usually gets it. Fuzzy memories on show. AMB very useful still ofc 

Leuth

Dazzler21 said:

LargeAddick said:

is there any footage of this incident where some think a Wednesday player should have seen red? In real time I didn’t even think it worthy of a yellow.

The from behind, in the air, two footed,  jumped in challenge wasn't worthy of a yellow? It should have been a red hands down.

From where I was, very near to it, I didn't even see it as a foul at first and thought the yellow was for him handling the ball afterwards. Absolutely not a red, sorry

hoof_it_up_to_benty

Leuth said:

hoof_it_up_to_benty said:

NabySarr said:

KingKinsella said:

NabySarr said:

Holden got it wrong. 3-5-2 doesn’t work for us at the moment. Rak-Sakyi is by far our best player so he needs to be in his best role to get the best out of him. Don’t want him getting the ball centrally or too deep like he was yesterday. Should have changed to a back 4 and got JRS out on the right. 

Wollacott is better than AMB. If we’re trying to get him to sign a new contract then fair enough keep playing him but even if AMB is a better shot stopper his distribution is terrible compared to Wollacott so I wouldn’t have him as number 1 next season but it would be good to keep both 

Surely shot stopping is rated more highly than distribution. A goal keeper that never lets  shot in-sounds perfect. He can kick it wherever he likes, because theres a "something -nil" scoreline.

It is but personally I think Wollacott is a better all-round goalkeeper as his shot-stopping was also very good earlier in the season and the rest of his game is a lot stronger than AMBs. We conceded possession often yesterday from AMB kicking it no where near our players or straight out for a throw in. We have nothing to play for so I’d keep playing AMB for his development and to hopefully convince him to sign a contract but if both are here next season I would start Wollacott unless AMB improves a lot at the rest of his game 

I think AMB is a better keeper - more commanding and confident. Distribution needs work.

Don't feel Wollacott is as decisive or commanding in the box.

They're both decent keepers.

What? Wollacott is extremely decisive and commanding. He comes for everything and usually gets it. Fuzzy memories on show. AMB very useful still ofc 

I think AMB is more commanding and decisive - not sure why that means my memory is 'fuzzy'. I haven't said Wollacott is a bad keeper.

They're both decent.

Leuth

hoof_it_up_to_benty said:

Leuth said:

hoof_it_up_to_benty said:

NabySarr said:

KingKinsella said:

NabySarr said:

Holden got it wrong. 3-5-2 doesn’t work for us at the moment. Rak-Sakyi is by far our best player so he needs to be in his best role to get the best out of him. Don’t want him getting the ball centrally or too deep like he was yesterday. Should have changed to a back 4 and got JRS out on the right. 

Wollacott is better than AMB. If we’re trying to get him to sign a new contract then fair enough keep playing him but even if AMB is a better shot stopper his distribution is terrible compared to Wollacott so I wouldn’t have him as number 1 next season but it would be good to keep both 

Surely shot stopping is rated more highly than distribution. A goal keeper that never lets  shot in-sounds perfect. He can kick it wherever he likes, because theres a "something -nil" scoreline.

It is but personally I think Wollacott is a better all-round goalkeeper as his shot-stopping was also very good earlier in the season and the rest of his game is a lot stronger than AMBs. We conceded possession often yesterday from AMB kicking it no where near our players or straight out for a throw in. We have nothing to play for so I’d keep playing AMB for his development and to hopefully convince him to sign a contract but if both are here next season I would start Wollacott unless AMB improves a lot at the rest of his game 

I think AMB is a better keeper - more commanding and confident. Distribution needs work.

Don't feel Wollacott is as decisive or commanding in the box.

They're both decent keepers.

What? Wollacott is extremely decisive and commanding. He comes for everything and usually gets it. Fuzzy memories on show. AMB very useful still ofc 

I think AMB is more commanding and decisive - not sure why that means my memory is 'fuzzy'. I haven't said Wollacott is a bad keeper.

They're both decent.

But more decisive and commanding than Wollacott, who comes to claim more or less everything that comes remotely near him? I've not seen another Charlton keeper (edit: apart from Nick Pope) who comes close to it 

Chunes

Leuth said:

hoof_it_up_to_benty said:

Leuth said:

hoof_it_up_to_benty said:

NabySarr said:

KingKinsella said:

NabySarr said:

Holden got it wrong. 3-5-2 doesn’t work for us at the moment. Rak-Sakyi is by far our best player so he needs to be in his best role to get the best out of him. Don’t want him getting the ball centrally or too deep like he was yesterday. Should have changed to a back 4 and got JRS out on the right. 

Wollacott is better than AMB. If we’re trying to get him to sign a new contract then fair enough keep playing him but even if AMB is a better shot stopper his distribution is terrible compared to Wollacott so I wouldn’t have him as number 1 next season but it would be good to keep both 

Surely shot stopping is rated more highly than distribution. A goal keeper that never lets  shot in-sounds perfect. He can kick it wherever he likes, because theres a "something -nil" scoreline.

It is but personally I think Wollacott is a better all-round goalkeeper as his shot-stopping was also very good earlier in the season and the rest of his game is a lot stronger than AMBs. We conceded possession often yesterday from AMB kicking it no where near our players or straight out for a throw in. We have nothing to play for so I’d keep playing AMB for his development and to hopefully convince him to sign a contract but if both are here next season I would start Wollacott unless AMB improves a lot at the rest of his game 

I think AMB is a better keeper - more commanding and confident. Distribution needs work.

Don't feel Wollacott is as decisive or commanding in the box.

They're both decent keepers.

What? Wollacott is extremely decisive and commanding. He comes for everything and usually gets it. Fuzzy memories on show. AMB very useful still ofc 

I think AMB is more commanding and decisive - not sure why that means my memory is 'fuzzy'. I haven't said Wollacott is a bad keeper.

They're both decent.

But more decisive and commanding than Wollacott, who comes to claim more or less everything that comes remotely near him? I've not seen another Charlton keeper (edit: apart from Nick Pope) who comes close to it 

You're on a roll Leuth. You think Wollacott claims more than Ben Amos did?

Perhaps someone with WyScout could settle that one. 

Leuth

Oh okay, maybe Amos too, that was his speciality (saving shots certainly wasn't)

hoof_it_up_to_benty

Leuth said:

hoof_it_up_to_benty said:

Leuth said:

hoof_it_up_to_benty said:

NabySarr said:

KingKinsella said:

NabySarr said:

Holden got it wrong. 3-5-2 doesn’t work for us at the moment. Rak-Sakyi is by far our best player so he needs to be in his best role to get the best out of him. Don’t want him getting the ball centrally or too deep like he was yesterday. Should have changed to a back 4 and got JRS out on the right. 

Wollacott is better than AMB. If we’re trying to get him to sign a new contract then fair enough keep playing him but even if AMB is a better shot stopper his distribution is terrible compared to Wollacott so I wouldn’t have him as number 1 next season but it would be good to keep both 

Surely shot stopping is rated more highly than distribution. A goal keeper that never lets  shot in-sounds perfect. He can kick it wherever he likes, because theres a "something -nil" scoreline.

It is but personally I think Wollacott is a better all-round goalkeeper as his shot-stopping was also very good earlier in the season and the rest of his game is a lot stronger than AMBs. We conceded possession often yesterday from AMB kicking it no where near our players or straight out for a throw in. We have nothing to play for so I’d keep playing AMB for his development and to hopefully convince him to sign a contract but if both are here next season I would start Wollacott unless AMB improves a lot at the rest of his game 

I think AMB is a better keeper - more commanding and confident. Distribution needs work.

Don't feel Wollacott is as decisive or commanding in the box.

They're both decent keepers.

What? Wollacott is extremely decisive and commanding. He comes for everything and usually gets it. Fuzzy memories on show. AMB very useful still ofc 

I think AMB is more commanding and decisive - not sure why that means my memory is 'fuzzy'. I haven't said Wollacott is a bad keeper.

They're both decent.

But more decisive and commanding than Wollacott, who comes to claim more or less everything that comes remotely near him? I've not seen another Charlton keeper (edit: apart from Nick Pope) who comes close to it 

I don't share your view of Wollacott obviously ..

CL_Phantom

Late to the party so not much to add.

Awful first half, better second. Still the same old problems rearing their head. An inability to defend well for 90+ mins with a squad full of inconsistent players and ones that, simply, just aren't good enough. We've definitely over rated a fair few of them. 

Aneke, not going to touch on as it's been done to death, shame for the guy, but no one is surprised. 

Ah well. Addicks2mediocrity 

KingKinsella

NabySarr said:

KingKinsella said:

NabySarr said:

Holden got it wrong. 3-5-2 doesn’t work for us at the moment. Rak-Sakyi is by far our best player so he needs to be in his best role to get the best out of him. Don’t want him getting the ball centrally or too deep like he was yesterday. Should have changed to a back 4 and got JRS out on the right. 

Wollacott is better than AMB. If we’re trying to get him to sign a new contract then fair enough keep playing him but even if AMB is a better shot stopper his distribution is terrible compared to Wollacott so I wouldn’t have him as number 1 next season but it would be good to keep both 

Surely shot stopping is rated more highly than distribution. A goal keeper that never lets  shot in-sounds perfect. He can kick it wherever he likes, because theres a "something -nil" scoreline.

It is but personally I think Wollacott is a better all-round goalkeeper as his shot-stopping was also very good earlier in the season and the rest of his game is a lot stronger than AMBs. We conceded possession often yesterday from AMB kicking it no where near our players or straight out for a throw in. We have nothing to play for so I’d keep playing AMB for his development and to hopefully convince him to sign a contract but if both are here next season I would start Wollacott unless AMB improves a lot at the rest of his game 

OK I see where you are coming from, but if you play AMB now just for his development, won't Wollacott get understandably restless (budding Ghanaian international etc) and want to move? you can end up with AMB not signing and Wollacott demanding a move?  

Dazzler21

AMB is a quad injury waiting to happen with his awful kicking technique. 

AMB is a better close range shot stopper and equal long range stopper. I don't like his punching of the ball.

I think Wollacott does all the basics better, Kicking, communication, having the ball at feet. 

hoof_it_up_to_benty

KingKinsella said:

NabySarr said:

KingKinsella said:

NabySarr said:

Holden got it wrong. 3-5-2 doesn’t work for us at the moment. Rak-Sakyi is by far our best player so he needs to be in his best role to get the best out of him. Don’t want him getting the ball centrally or too deep like he was yesterday. Should have changed to a back 4 and got JRS out on the right. 

Wollacott is better than AMB. If we’re trying to get him to sign a new contract then fair enough keep playing him but even if AMB is a better shot stopper his distribution is terrible compared to Wollacott so I wouldn’t have him as number 1 next season but it would be good to keep both 

Surely shot stopping is rated more highly than distribution. A goal keeper that never lets  shot in-sounds perfect. He can kick it wherever he likes, because theres a "something -nil" scoreline.

It is but personally I think Wollacott is a better all-round goalkeeper as his shot-stopping was also very good earlier in the season and the rest of his game is a lot stronger than AMBs. We conceded possession often yesterday from AMB kicking it no where near our players or straight out for a throw in. We have nothing to play for so I’d keep playing AMB for his development and to hopefully convince him to sign a contract but if both are here next season I would start Wollacott unless AMB improves a lot at the rest of his game 

OK I see where you are coming from, but if you play AMB now just for his development, won't Wollacott get understandably restless (budding Ghanaian international etc) and want to move? you can end up with AMB not signing and Wollacott demanding a move?  

Both keepers need to develop - neither has masses of experience. They're both good enough to be a No1 at L1 level. 

I expect both would be unhappy to be on the bench.

If we manage to keep both then one of them will probably want a loan move.

Interesting to see which of them has the better career.

Chunes

Leuth said:

Oh okay, maybe Amos too, that was his speciality (saving shots certainly wasn't)

You are a reasonable man. I'll remind you of that when you're about to slap me in a post-apocalyptic makro's car park.

KingKinsella

conker said:

billysboots said:

Thought CBT was awful today - he has no idea how to play the defensive part of a wingback’s game. In hindsight it may have been better to play Sess and bring CBT on when the game broke up a bit 2nd half 

Any manager that cannot not see that CBT would be awful in the defensive part of playing a wingback role should not be a manager.

I think he is being over criticised for trying to play a role that he is obviously not suited to. 

He also created possibly our best chance that brought a good save from their keeper

Hey! I think your both right! It was a mixed performance with good and not so good so you pick the bits that catch your eye.
Remember early on he beat the marker on the half way line and was pulled back (?iorfa) that was very early on, and I thought SW faked a foul by CBT on the same player , got in the Ref's face and CBT was carded. That was to nullify the advantage. Then there was the shot and several runs that were good but also a few disappointing crosses, maybe worst was his hand in the goal as he didn't do his defensive work, Ness got pulled over to the wing 
So mixed.

operationpig

charlton_hero said:

operationpig said:

We really should have been 3 up in the first half, but decided to 'take it easy' which sometimes creeps into our game when the game looks easy, it's slightly dangerous approach because whilst at 1-0 you were always in the game.
Second half was more even but I was expecting much more from you guys at the Valley, I'm certain the Wedensday team did as well and in parts it was like a pre-season knock about!

All the best for the season think it will just fade out to a lower half finish for you and hopefully we go up automatic 👍🏻 

Best of luck 👍🏻 

I think you're flattering yourself. Deserved to win, but I expected a bit more for a side sitting top of the table. Great numbers, but pathetic noise. 

Noise doesn't win you promotion mate but being 20 matches unbeated and conceding just 6 goals in 15 matches does !

th0rryy

NabySarr said:

ProperCharlton said:

Leuth said:

A lot of Fraser hate. But from when we took Kilkenny off (clarifying his role) right up until we were left with just Bonne up front again (and even thereafter) we were indisputably on top, and he was contributing to that. He's been absolutely excellent in a 2 with Dobson. But the 3rd midfielder has made his role confused again. He's been forced too high up the pitch where it's hard for him to dictate play. A second striker he is not. 

I think Fraser was at best playing in a 3 with Dobbo and Morgan.

His best position is on the left of a 3. Unfortunately we don’t have anyone good enough to play on the right of that 3 as Morgan just isn’t good enough. Yesterday Kilkenny played more alongside Dobson with Fraser pushed into the number 10 role which he doesn’t suit and his performance showed that. 

I don’t think Fraser is the problem, he’s a good player. The problem is that we have been lacking a good box to box midfielder with energy that can get into the box a score. That player alongside Dobson and Fraser would be an ideal 3, but without it we either play Fraser out of position further forward or we play Morgan who isn’t good enough. The last 2 games have showed neither of these approaches are good enough to compete with the better sides in the league. 

Gilbey was supposed to be that player but wasn’t good enough, Morgan isn’t sure what he is but does have the energy for that role but defensively and in the final third he isn’t good enough. It’s one of the many things we need to add in the summer if we are to do anything next season

I don't hate Fraser, but I am tired of seeing him go absent and not taking control of a few more games, like Bannan did. There's obviously a significant gulf in quality between the two - however, Fraser has shown the capacity to do this in glimpses, and this is where the frustration for me lies. As I said earlier, he points a lot and gets frustrated, but equally, doesn't make the movement or runs required anywhere near enough.

Fraser doesn't have the fitness that Dobson has and I feel that costs us, regularly. If he doesn't run and move enough to receive the ball in the areas he can impact the game, we end up completely stifled. It feels like we have to keep Dobson and another CM (Kilkenny/Morgan) in the team to cover for his ability to not go box to box and we have to either go 3 at the back or 1 one up top to make him fit in this team. If he needs two other CMs around him for him to function properly, I just think the cost is too great.

I don't see him being dropped any time soon, but I'd like to see what Dobson + combinations of Henry/Kilkenny/Morgan would be like.

Leuth

th0rryy said:

NabySarr said:

ProperCharlton said:

Leuth said:

A lot of Fraser hate. But from when we took Kilkenny off (clarifying his role) right up until we were left with just Bonne up front again (and even thereafter) we were indisputably on top, and he was contributing to that. He's been absolutely excellent in a 2 with Dobson. But the 3rd midfielder has made his role confused again. He's been forced too high up the pitch where it's hard for him to dictate play. A second striker he is not. 

I think Fraser was at best playing in a 3 with Dobbo and Morgan.

His best position is on the left of a 3. Unfortunately we don’t have anyone good enough to play on the right of that 3 as Morgan just isn’t good enough. Yesterday Kilkenny played more alongside Dobson with Fraser pushed into the number 10 role which he doesn’t suit and his performance showed that. 

I don’t think Fraser is the problem, he’s a good player. The problem is that we have been lacking a good box to box midfielder with energy that can get into the box a score. That player alongside Dobson and Fraser would be an ideal 3, but without it we either play Fraser out of position further forward or we play Morgan who isn’t good enough. The last 2 games have showed neither of these approaches are good enough to compete with the better sides in the league. 

Gilbey was supposed to be that player but wasn’t good enough, Morgan isn’t sure what he is but does have the energy for that role but defensively and in the final third he isn’t good enough. It’s one of the many things we need to add in the summer if we are to do anything next season

I don't hate Fraser, but I am tired of seeing him go absent and not taking control of a few more games, like Bannan did. There's obviously a significant gulf in quality between the two - however, Fraser has shown the capacity to do this in glimpses, and this is where the frustration for me lies. As I said earlier, he points a lot and gets frustrated, but equally, doesn't make the movement or runs required anywhere near enough.

Fraser doesn't have the fitness that Dobson has and I feel that costs us, regularly. If he doesn't run and move enough to receive the ball in the areas he can impact the game, we end up completely stifled. It feels like we have to keep Dobson and another CM (Kilkenny/Morgan) in the team to cover for his ability to not go box to box and we have to either go 3 at the back or 1 one up top to make him fit in this team. If he needs two other CMs around him for him to function properly, I just think the cost is too great.

I don't see him being dropped any time soon, but I'd like to see what Dobson + combinations of Henry/Kilkenny/Morgan would be like.

He doesn't need 2 other CMs though. He was just fine, good even, in a 2 with Dobson. The problem is that he isn't a number 10, which is what Holden's been trying of late

Cafc43v3r

Leuth said:

Oh okay, maybe Amos too, that was his speciality (saving shots certainly wasn't)

Amos was criminally underrated when he was here.

Cafc43v3r

Leuth said:

th0rryy said:

NabySarr said:

ProperCharlton said:

Leuth said:

A lot of Fraser hate. But from when we took Kilkenny off (clarifying his role) right up until we were left with just Bonne up front again (and even thereafter) we were indisputably on top, and he was contributing to that. He's been absolutely excellent in a 2 with Dobson. But the 3rd midfielder has made his role confused again. He's been forced too high up the pitch where it's hard for him to dictate play. A second striker he is not. 

I think Fraser was at best playing in a 3 with Dobbo and Morgan.

His best position is on the left of a 3. Unfortunately we don’t have anyone good enough to play on the right of that 3 as Morgan just isn’t good enough. Yesterday Kilkenny played more alongside Dobson with Fraser pushed into the number 10 role which he doesn’t suit and his performance showed that. 

I don’t think Fraser is the problem, he’s a good player. The problem is that we have been lacking a good box to box midfielder with energy that can get into the box a score. That player alongside Dobson and Fraser would be an ideal 3, but without it we either play Fraser out of position further forward or we play Morgan who isn’t good enough. The last 2 games have showed neither of these approaches are good enough to compete with the better sides in the league. 

Gilbey was supposed to be that player but wasn’t good enough, Morgan isn’t sure what he is but does have the energy for that role but defensively and in the final third he isn’t good enough. It’s one of the many things we need to add in the summer if we are to do anything next season

I don't hate Fraser, but I am tired of seeing him go absent and not taking control of a few more games, like Bannan did. There's obviously a significant gulf in quality between the two - however, Fraser has shown the capacity to do this in glimpses, and this is where the frustration for me lies. As I said earlier, he points a lot and gets frustrated, but equally, doesn't make the movement or runs required anywhere near enough.

Fraser doesn't have the fitness that Dobson has and I feel that costs us, regularly. If he doesn't run and move enough to receive the ball in the areas he can impact the game, we end up completely stifled. It feels like we have to keep Dobson and another CM (Kilkenny/Morgan) in the team to cover for his ability to not go box to box and we have to either go 3 at the back or 1 one up top to make him fit in this team. If he needs two other CMs around him for him to function properly, I just think the cost is too great.

I don't see him being dropped any time soon, but I'd like to see what Dobson + combinations of Henry/Kilkenny/Morgan would be like.

He doesn't need 2 other CMs though. He was just fine, good even, in a 2 with Dobson. The problem is that he isn't a number 10, which is what Holden's been trying of late

This is the the thing with Fraser.  He isn't a number ten or a wideish  left sides midfielder.  That's why, in part, it didn't work for him at Ipswich.

He isn't a top league 1 midfielder in a two either.  He is okay, I would go as far as significantly better than our alternatives.  Your certainly not getting your bang for your buck.

As previously mentioned his best form was for MK Dons on the left of a flat 3.   We don't have the other players to facilitate that.  Is he good enough to build a team that can facilitate that?  Probably not, and that's the problem.

It's not a Fraser problem, it's a Charlton problem.  We have signed players who are good at something, then asked them to do something else.  There have been at least half a dozen over the last 2 years, probably more. 

JamesSeed

operationpig said:

charlton_hero said:

operationpig said:

We really should have been 3 up in the first half, but decided to 'take it easy' which sometimes creeps into our game when the game looks easy, it's slightly dangerous approach because whilst at 1-0 you were always in the game.
Second half was more even but I was expecting much more from you guys at the Valley, I'm certain the Wedensday team did as well and in parts it was like a pre-season knock about!

All the best for the season think it will just fade out to a lower half finish for you and hopefully we go up automatic 👍🏻 

Best of luck 👍🏻 

I think you're flattering yourself. Deserved to win, but I expected a bit more for a side sitting top of the table. Great numbers, but pathetic noise. 

Noise doesn't win you promotion mate but being 20 matches unbeated and conceding just 6 goals in 15 matches does !

You’re beginning to get on my nerves now.
;-)
 It would be a shame if you were only here for the wind up though.

JamesSeed

The Fraser/Bannon comparisons:

Obviously one is a level above than the other, but it’s not just Bannon’s ability to pick a pass; when Leaburn was through on goal, it was Bannon flying in with a well timed lunge that made Miles screw his shot wide. He celebrated it like a goal. 

And the pass from Clare was a tad behind Miles, but watching the replay that was because there was a defender who might have intercepted the pass had it been any further forward.

I agree with all the posters who pointed out that Sheffield Wednesday were much better at getting in the referee’s face. Even when Razaki (c. Curbs) was clobbered, there was hardly a word in the referee’s ear. That makes difference, especially at this level. Is that a lack of team spirit or character?

NabySarr

Cafc43v3r said:

Leuth said:

th0rryy said:

NabySarr said:

ProperCharlton said:

Leuth said:

A lot of Fraser hate. But from when we took Kilkenny off (clarifying his role) right up until we were left with just Bonne up front again (and even thereafter) we were indisputably on top, and he was contributing to that. He's been absolutely excellent in a 2 with Dobson. But the 3rd midfielder has made his role confused again. He's been forced too high up the pitch where it's hard for him to dictate play. A second striker he is not. 

I think Fraser was at best playing in a 3 with Dobbo and Morgan.

His best position is on the left of a 3. Unfortunately we don’t have anyone good enough to play on the right of that 3 as Morgan just isn’t good enough. Yesterday Kilkenny played more alongside Dobson with Fraser pushed into the number 10 role which he doesn’t suit and his performance showed that. 

I don’t think Fraser is the problem, he’s a good player. The problem is that we have been lacking a good box to box midfielder with energy that can get into the box a score. That player alongside Dobson and Fraser would be an ideal 3, but without it we either play Fraser out of position further forward or we play Morgan who isn’t good enough. The last 2 games have showed neither of these approaches are good enough to compete with the better sides in the league. 

Gilbey was supposed to be that player but wasn’t good enough, Morgan isn’t sure what he is but does have the energy for that role but defensively and in the final third he isn’t good enough. It’s one of the many things we need to add in the summer if we are to do anything next season

I don't hate Fraser, but I am tired of seeing him go absent and not taking control of a few more games, like Bannan did. There's obviously a significant gulf in quality between the two - however, Fraser has shown the capacity to do this in glimpses, and this is where the frustration for me lies. As I said earlier, he points a lot and gets frustrated, but equally, doesn't make the movement or runs required anywhere near enough.

Fraser doesn't have the fitness that Dobson has and I feel that costs us, regularly. If he doesn't run and move enough to receive the ball in the areas he can impact the game, we end up completely stifled. It feels like we have to keep Dobson and another CM (Kilkenny/Morgan) in the team to cover for his ability to not go box to box and we have to either go 3 at the back or 1 one up top to make him fit in this team. If he needs two other CMs around him for him to function properly, I just think the cost is too great.

I don't see him being dropped any time soon, but I'd like to see what Dobson + combinations of Henry/Kilkenny/Morgan would be like.

He doesn't need 2 other CMs though. He was just fine, good even, in a 2 with Dobson. The problem is that he isn't a number 10, which is what Holden's been trying of late

This is the the thing with Fraser.  He isn't a number ten or a wideish  left sides midfielder.  That's why, in part, it didn't work for him at Ipswich.

He isn't a top league 1 midfielder in a two either.  He is okay, I would go as far as significantly better than our alternatives.  Your certainly not getting your bang for your buck.

As previously mentioned his best form was for MK Dons on the left of a flat 3.   We don't have the other players to facilitate that.  Is he good enough to build a team that can facilitate that?  Probably not, and that's the problem.

It's not a Fraser problem, it's a Charlton problem.  We have signed players who are good at something, then asked them to do something else.  There have been at least half a dozen over the last 2 years, probably more. 

Definitely agree with that. Sandgaard had a clear idea of how he wanted us to play but until this most recent summer we’ve just signed good players (or what we’ve thought to be good players) with no thought to how they fit how we want to play. High pressing, possession football was the plan and then our biggest outlays last summer were on Lavelle (can’t pass), Kirk (doesn’t press), Stockley (can’t press). Doesn’t help that we change managers every 6 months so the style keeps changing. Sandgaard had a clear idea from the start but only decided to try and actually implement it when the budget was significantly less and the squad was already full of players who aren’t good and don’t fit the style 

sm

jimmymelrose said:

golfaddick said:

king addick said:

Stunned that people thought CBT played well..the guy can't cross his legs. That one at the end..whip it in..put some pace on it and it might flick someone and go in. Wingers should be able to cross....simple as that.

He is not a "winger". He simply has a bit of pace but as he is not a striker he has to play out wide. Same as JRS, although he has more guile & trickery.

If he's not a winger or a striker, what is he? 
An attacking midfielder?

Well he's not a wing back either.  There has been a lot of talk about our wingers scoring goals, but perhaps they need to learn a little about crossing a ball, and perhaps they would have a bit more time to do so if they were more direct rather than slowing things down with their showboating.  

sm

operationpig said:

charlton_hero said:

operationpig said:

We really should have been 3 up in the first half, but decided to 'take it easy' which sometimes creeps into our game when the game looks easy, it's slightly dangerous approach because whilst at 1-0 you were always in the game.
Second half was more even but I was expecting much more from you guys at the Valley, I'm certain the Wedensday team did as well and in parts it was like a pre-season knock about!

All the best for the season think it will just fade out to a lower half finish for you and hopefully we go up automatic 👍🏻 

Best of luck 👍🏻 

I think you're flattering yourself. Deserved to win, but I expected a bit more for a side sitting top of the table. Great numbers, but pathetic noise. 

Noise doesn't win you promotion mate but being 20 matches unbeated and conceding just 6 goals in 15 matches does !

But it's all organisation and game management. Little class on display apart from Bannon.  I doubt you will get much love from neutrals, but you probably don't care very much!

LargeAddick

Leuth said:

Dazzler21 said:

LargeAddick said:

is there any footage of this incident where some think a Wednesday player should have seen red? In real time I didn’t even think it worthy of a yellow.

The from behind, in the air, two footed,  jumped in challenge wasn't worthy of a yellow? It should have been a red hands down.

From where I was, very near to it, I didn't even see it as a foul at first and thought the yellow was for him handling the ball afterwards. Absolutely not a red, sorry

I was close too and agree entirely with what you say so that’s why I’m asking if there is any video footage.

JamesSeed

LargeAddick said:

Leuth said:

Dazzler21 said:

LargeAddick said:

is there any footage of this incident where some think a Wednesday player should have seen red? In real time I didn’t even think it worthy of a yellow.

The from behind, in the air, two footed,  jumped in challenge wasn't worthy of a yellow? It should have been a red hands down.

From where I was, very near to it, I didn't even see it as a foul at first and thought the yellow was for him handling the ball afterwards. Absolutely not a red, sorry

I was close too and agree entirely with what you say so that’s why I’m asking if there is any video footage.

Funny how we all see things differently. From the UCE it looked like a red, as the guy steamed in from quite a distance away, and although he got the ball he also took the man. You can't do that these days. I'll try and watch the match coverage to see if a different perspective changes my mind.

Callumcafc

operationpig said:

charlton_hero said:

operationpig said:

We really should have been 3 up in the first half, but decided to 'take it easy' which sometimes creeps into our game when the game looks easy, it's slightly dangerous approach because whilst at 1-0 you were always in the game.
Second half was more even but I was expecting much more from you guys at the Valley, I'm certain the Wedensday team did as well and in parts it was like a pre-season knock about!

All the best for the season think it will just fade out to a lower half finish for you and hopefully we go up automatic 👍🏻 

Best of luck 👍🏻 

I think you're flattering yourself. Deserved to win, but I expected a bit more for a side sitting top of the table. Great numbers, but pathetic noise. 

Noise doesn't win you promotion mate but being 20 matches unbeated and conceding just 6 goals in 15 matches does !

@golfaddick

Billy_Mix

objectively getting done 1 nil by the league leaders in the midst of a 20 game unbeaten run and not being outclassed for long during the game wouldn't seem like such a bad outcome
subjectively we were dreadful, again, the massives barely got out of 2nd gear at any point, one flash of class from Bannan hit the post, one shameful bit of not-defending gave their right back a tap in, Windass was unusually anonymous, we got away with one
Wednesday shamelessly managed the heck out of the game from the moment they were given the lead
They took great pleasure in taking the piss out of the woefully crap referee and manipulated him to the point of total irrelevance - he didn't need the help he was shit
CBT simply failed to track Palmer for the goal
Another different defensive lineup and shape produced the same desperately inadequate shambles
Hector's a slightly less dismal chump than Inniss but his distribution is just as crap
Ness and AMB had off days, to which they're susceptible and entitled, with their lack of experience 
Kilkenny appeared willing but just like Payne never quite gets to where he wants/needs to be and is accordingly utterly ineffective, Kilkenny took 42 minutes to touch the ball and that was just to bundle the ball out of play, Payne's just too short and consequently too slow
Fraser wheezed around, bottling challenges and refusing to track opponents, dragging the ball back skilfully into the clutches of another challenge and inevitably surrendering possession 9 times out of 10
Miles the poor sod clearly wasn't actually fit and will now be missed for even longer
JRS was peripheral and out of position
Shoving Inniss up front could have been a good idea if it happened 15 minutes earlier, even if only to keep him away from our own penalty area
By the time Bonne came on we were in total disarray as Wednesday shut the game down mocking the referee
The less said about Chuks the better for all

On to Posh for more of the same from the even more depleted squad

Season ticket anybody?