That’s possibly 2 more seasons of having to find Kirk loan moves. That would be some kind of record. A loan move in every year of his contract with us. It’s not out the question either. Unless we decide to take a token fee, just to get his wages off the books
Aneke, another problem entirely. We’re stuck with him
Not bothered by any of those leaving albeit I would have considered retaining Albie. Issue for me is why? If released because we have big plans and the budget to improve then great. If released because we are trying to break even and Albie and Innis were offered peanuts which we will now use to bring in even worse performers and play the kids who aren’t ready then that is a huge issue. Only time will tell.
extending Roddy, Santos and Viggars none of whom have pushed on and offering Bakrin a deal who is the same worries me a bit that we will be going down the same ‘Claydon’ route as last season
If the strategy is to only break even through wages, then I think it's more likely we would have offered Morgan and Clare deals, and not Hector or even Thomas, who came to us from a Championship club.
That's not to say we still won't cheap out on wages, it's just to say I think these moves, on face value, are based on the abilities of the players, not just the financial situation of the club. Of course, we also don't know the terms of the contracts offered.
I think it's too early to say that about the U21s as well. We are badly short of fullbacks, so having some depth in the U21s isn't the worst idea in the world. But given Roddy was handed his league debut on the last day of the season, I think it's safe to say that Holden sees something in him.
That said, if he's our second choice LB next season, then worry.
As for Santos, don't know much about him but some of on here have spoken well of him I believe. Don't know much about Viggers.
Bakrin seemed to be the highest rated young CB at the club at one point at the start of the season. So while I haven't seen enough of him to have a strong opinion, I'm not surprised he gets offered a deal.
I feel like I have to say, after reading this thread: Not everything is bad news.
I understand how people adopt that mentality. It's an adaptation from years of experience. But taken on its face, these are good moves. They move on players deemed not good enough, and they at least attempt to retain those who good/have potential.
Absolute bollocks about Albie. Better player that was totally misunderstood by the Charlton Life faithful let alone the management. Would rather see his endeavour than the Gilby/Fraser/Kirk/Payne/Henry/Jayasimi who are lazy and not effective .
Hope he is moving because of a better offer than Charlton can provide.
Think your list of 6 are hardly at a consistent level. Few will argue on kirk, DJ, Gilbey. Payne must have more impact than Morgan on a goal/assist per minute ratio... think he's underrated personally. Fraser could hardly be described as lazy... whether he's justified himself as the highest paid player at the club is a different question. And Henry has been great for the U-21s... agree he's not ready yet, but it's not a fair comparison.
Albie has had some great games, deserves our thanks, but he's just not impactful enough in the tough games, when he has no space.
Whether Hector and Thomas re-sign will be interesting. I wonder what sort of deals we are offering? If both refuse, we'll have to recruit almost a whole new defence
I can’t see Thomas getting too many offers elsewhere tbh
Whether Hector and Thomas re-sign will be interesting. I wonder what sort of deals we are offering? If both refuse, we'll have to recruit almost a whole new defence
I can’t see Thomas getting too many offers elsewhere tbh
Not bothered by any of those leaving albeit I would have considered retaining Albie. Issue for me is why? If released because we have big plans and the budget to improve then great. If released because we are trying to break even and Albie and Innis were offered peanuts which we will now use to bring in even worse performers and play the kids who aren’t ready then that is a huge issue. Only time will tell.
extending Roddy, Santos and Viggars none of whom have pushed on and offering Bakrin a deal who is the same worries me a bit that we will be going down the same ‘Claydon’ route as last season
If the strategy is to only break even through wages, then I think it's more likely we would have offered Morgan and Clare deals, and not Hector or even Thomas, who came to us from a Championship club.
That's not to say we still won't cheap out on wages, it's just to say I think these moves, on face value, are based on the abilities of the players, not just the financial situation of the club. Of course, we also don't know the terms of the contracts offered.
I think it's too early to say that about the U21s as well. We are badly short of fullbacks, so having some depth in the U21s isn't the worst idea in the world. But given Roddy was handed his league debut on the last day of the season, I think it's safe to say that Holden sees something in him.
That said, if he's our second choice LB next season, then worry.
As for Santos, don't know much about him but some of on here have spoken well of him I believe. Don't know much about Viggers.
Bakrin seemed to be the highest rated young CB at the club at one point at the start of the season. So while I haven't seen enough of him to have a strong opinion, I'm not surprised he gets offered a deal.
I feel like I have to say, after reading this thread: Not everything is bad news.
I understand how people adopt that mentality. It's an adaptation from years of experience. But taken on its face, these are good moves. They move on players deemed not good enough, and they at least attempt to retain those who good/have potential.
I am a big fan of all the lads who come through at Charlton and happy to give them as long as possible to prove themselves and of course the U21's does mean you have a weird number of young players who are retained simply to make up the numbers each year but with a great bunch of U18s, some very good u21s already and first teamers needing game time when returning from injury we need to be careful not to overfill the u21 squad and have players just sitting around. Plus how many player wages/contracts should a L1 club have..?
That is why I am suspicious as to why we are holding on to some this season, the reason I picked on the 4 I did is as follows:
Nazir Bakrin is 20, Cray Wanderers terminated his loan after 10 games this season, they play in the Isthmian Premier League (tier 7/8 of UK football). We have Mitchell, Elerwere, Dench and Laqeratabua all vying for U21's game time next season who need to play regularly to develop.
Jeremy Santos is 20, he was on loan in the National League South with Tonbridge Angels.
Ryan Viggars is a 20 yr old striker, he went on loan to Needham Market in the Southern League Premier Division Central where he got 2 goals in 5 then to Maidstone in the National League South where he got none in 8 games. Maybe we know Casey is not signing his contract so need space fillers upfront?
Jacob Roddy is 20. If he isn't good enough to be back up LB at a L1 club then why waste money on his wages at 20yrs? If we want young third choice back up we already have Bower signed to a pro contract and is a LB who should be playing U21's for his development next season.
Add to that the rumours Innis and Albie chose to leave as they didn't like our offers rather than us choosing to release them and there is certainly significant reason to be suspicious.
Despite the potentially nepotistic way in which Jacob Roddy ended up at our club, whenever I've seen him play he has been alright. Nothing flashy but not very mistake prone - if he is a backup and we sign a LB ahead of him and Thomas (assuming Thomas signs, maybe an if), then... okay. Not inspiring but that's alright imo
Not bothered by any of those leaving albeit I would have considered retaining Albie. Issue for me is why? If released because we have big plans and the budget to improve then great. If released because we are trying to break even and Albie and Innis were offered peanuts which we will now use to bring in even worse performers and play the kids who aren’t ready then that is a huge issue. Only time will tell.
extending Roddy, Santos and Viggars none of whom have pushed on and offering Bakrin a deal who is the same worries me a bit that we will be going down the same ‘Claydon’ route as last season
If the strategy is to only break even through wages, then I think it's more likely we would have offered Morgan and Clare deals, and not Hector or even Thomas, who came to us from a Championship club.
That's not to say we still won't cheap out on wages, it's just to say I think these moves, on face value, are based on the abilities of the players, not just the financial situation of the club. Of course, we also don't know the terms of the contracts offered.
I think it's too early to say that about the U21s as well. We are badly short of fullbacks, so having some depth in the U21s isn't the worst idea in the world. But given Roddy was handed his league debut on the last day of the season, I think it's safe to say that Holden sees something in him.
That said, if he's our second choice LB next season, then worry.
As for Santos, don't know much about him but some of on here have spoken well of him I believe. Don't know much about Viggers.
Bakrin seemed to be the highest rated young CB at the club at one point at the start of the season. So while I haven't seen enough of him to have a strong opinion, I'm not surprised he gets offered a deal.
I feel like I have to say, after reading this thread: Not everything is bad news.
I understand how people adopt that mentality. It's an adaptation from years of experience. But taken on its face, these are good moves. They move on players deemed not good enough, and they at least attempt to retain those who good/have potential.
I am a big fan of all the lads who come through at Charlton and happy to give them as long as possible to prove themselves and of course the U21's does mean you have a weird number of young players who are retained simply to make up the numbers each year but with a great bunch of U18s, some very good u21s already and first teamers needing game time when returning from injury we need to be careful not to overfill the u21 squad and have players just sitting around. Plus how many player wages/contracts should a L1 club have..?
That is why I am suspicious as to why we are holding on to some this season, the reason I picked on the 4 I did is as follows:
Nazir Bakrin is 20, Cray Wanderers terminated his loan after 10 games this season, they play in the Isthmian Premier League (tier 7/8 of UK football). We have Mitchell, Elerwere, Dench and Laqeratabua all vying for U21's game time next season who need to play regularly to develop.
Jeremy Santos is 20, he was on loan in the National League South with Tonbridge Angels.
Ryan Viggars is a 20 yr old striker, he went on loan to Needham Market in the Southern League Premier Division Central where he got 2 goals in 5 then to Maidstone in the National League South where he got none in 8 games. Maybe we know Casey is not signing his contract so need space fillers upfront?
Jacob Roddy is 20. If he isn't good enough to be back up LB at a L1 club then why waste money on his wages at 20yrs? If we want young third choice back up we already have Bower signed to a pro contract and is a LB who should be playing U21's for his development next season.
Add to that the rumours Innis and Albie chose to leave as they didn't like our offers rather than us choosing to release them and there is certainly significant reason to be suspicious.
where have the rumors that Inniss and Albie turned down deals come from? I see them referenced in this thread, but have not seen the source.
As far as retaining those four, we're talking about four, not 14. I think all four have played for the senior side, albeit three in the Pizza Cup, so it's not even someone like Dylan Gavin, where he was prolific at U21 level but never seemed close to the first team, even when we lacked Strikers.
I feel like fixating on four 20 year Olds who will be on small wages after a massive clear out is missing the forest for the trees a bit. If one of them comes good and turns into even a squad player, then the gamble pays off. If not, we haven't spent a ton on them, and they can sit on the U21 bench. Or go one loan to the 7th tier.
Don't get me wrong, Santos and Viggers could be out two new midfielders for next season, at which point, panic and worry about relegation. But I don't think we're there yet.
I think there are plenty of reasons to be suspicious. I'm just nor convinced that the retention of four U21 players is that reason, and I obviously can't weigh in on the Albie and Inniss contract stuff.
Could we have offered Henry a new contract on not particularly good terms so he either accepts low wages or he gets released and we ensure we get compensation from whoever picks him up. Didn't we do similar with Fosu a few years back?
To get a compo fee though don’t we have to offer a contract at least as good as he’s currently on, offer less and he can go on a free?
Absolute bollocks about Albie. Better player that was totally misunderstood by the Charlton Life faithful let alone the management. Would rather see his endeavour than the Gilby/Fraser/Kirk/Payne/Henry/Jayasimi who are lazy and not effective .
Hope he is moving because of a better offer than Charlton can provide.
I don't think anyone questioned his endeavour, but if you're being honest you can surely admit we need better.
You could pick 11 fans each week who would try hard and put effort in, it doesn't mean we'd win games though.
Whether Hector and Thomas re-sign will be interesting. I wonder what sort of deals we are offering? If both refuse, we'll have to recruit almost a whole new defence
I can’t see Thomas getting too many offers elsewhere tbh
I expect he undercuts Inniss for wages. Wages Limbo
I liked Inniss for his all in approach but understand why he has been released. Really hope Hector signs as think his quality is a cut above for L1 and him and Ness could be a formidable pairing next season.
Surprised to see such mixed reviews on Hector as for me his reading of the game, composure, positioning and passing easily make him a Championship standard centre half.
Going to need another couple of CBs though as Mitchell needs a loan and Lavelle is a L2 player. Is Naby Sarr available?!
If you added up the weekly wages , of players that have just been let go how much will that knock off the wage bill, and have we reached break even yet?
Not even close. I think the last accounts suggested we were losing £10M an year excluding income from transfer fees. Based on that we would need to reduce wages by circa £200k per week to break even. The salaries of the players released won’t even touch the sides.
Breaking even is a total fallacy for a club like us in L1.
I would be interested to see the cash flow rather than the Profit and Loss. It is possible to load depreciation into the books and that is a non-cash item. Given that TS only bought non-tangible assets, i.e. goodwill as opposed to goodwill plus a stadium, I would assume that the level of depreciation is high because the goodwill has to be written off. What is important is the cash flow, because that will decide whether we can continue in business without financial support. TS knew all this stuff when he bought the club, so our financial situation cannot come as a surprise to him. He thought he could apply some American managerial skills that the Brits didn't have and so get us out of this league. 5-year plan, anyone?
I must say I'm surprised the clear out is being greeted so positively as it seemed quite a few were advocating to keep this lot as 'squad players.'
Nonetheless it's very positive news. We can't keep doing what we're doing and expecting different results. It goes beyond just ability, the mentality on the pitch over the past few seasons has been diabolical. And I really trust Holden, with his psychological approach, to judge who he wants in his camp.
I liked Inniss for his all in approach but understand why he has been released. Really hope Hector signs as think his quality is a cut above for L1 and him and Ness could be a formidable pairing next season.
Surprised to see such mixed reviews on Hector as for me his reading of the game, composure, positioning and passing easily make him a Championship standard centre half.
Going to need another couple of CBs though as Mitchell needs a loan and Lavelle is a L2 player. Is Naby Sarr available?!
I'm all for balance in appraising players. You left out Hectors errors not only in early games, but later on as wel eg Morecambe and others. It's what he can do for us in the next 12 months that will sway me. So far, he's... OK.
Wasn’t there talk of a bad attitude / poor behaviour by some players which was impacting the squad?
Has that element been fully removed yet?
We have no way of knowing for sure though looking at what happened with Bonne, Gilbey and their social media antics it's hard to think we haven't at the very least started to take action along those lines.
The "No dickheads" policy sounds great on paper but might cause issues if the choice is between a good character on a high wage and a cheap dickhead.
Wasn’t there talk of a bad attitude / poor behaviour by some players which was impacting the squad?
Has that element been fully removed yet?
I think it may have been on loan for the most part. if Charlie Kirk plays another game for us I will be shocked
Interesting.
I feel I don’t really know much about him as a player. My perception is he didn’t get a consistent series of games to really prove himself one way or the other and of course he arrived at a difficult time for him personally. But then again maybe there is a reason why.
If you added up the weekly wages , of players that have just been let go how much will that knock off the wage bill, and have we reached break even yet?
Not even close. I think the last accounts suggested we were losing £10M an year excluding income from transfer fees. Based on that we would need to reduce wages by circa £200k per week to break even. The salaries of the players released won’t even touch the sides.
Breaking even is a total fallacy for a club like us in L1.
I would be interested to see the cash flow rather than the Profit and Loss. It is possible to load depreciation into the books and that is a non-cash item. Given that TS only bought non-tangible assets, i.e. goodwill as opposed to goodwill plus a stadium, I would assume that the level of depreciation is high because the goodwill has to be written off. What is important is the cash flow, because that will decide whether we can continue in business without financial support. TS knew all this stuff when he bought the club, so our financial situation cannot come as a surprise to him. He thought he could apply some American managerial skills that the Brits didn't have and so get us out of this league. 5-year plan, anyone?
Amortisation of intangible assets is £786K and relates entirely to player values. There's no goodwill.
Wasn’t there talk of a bad attitude / poor behaviour by some players which was impacting the squad?
Has that element been fully removed yet?
I think it may have been on loan for the most part. if Charlie Kirk plays another game for us I will be shocked
Interesting.
I feel I don’t really know much about him as a player. My perception is he didn’t get a consistent series of games to really prove himself one way or the other and of course he arrived at a difficult time for him personally. But then again maybe there is a reason why.
Remember those 'Bomb Squad' whisperings? Gilbey too. Maybe a couple of others (Washington I assume)
I would be surprised if Clare, Innis and Morgan didn't have contract discussions over the past 6 months or so with the club. I wouldn't be surprised if all 3 were actually offered contracts but decided to leave on a free and go elsewhere. I don't think any will struggle to find clubs at the same level as us.
I would be surprised if Clare, Innis and Morgan didn't have contract discussions over the past 6 months or so with the club. I wouldn't be surprised if all 3 were actually offered contracts but decided to leave on a free and go elsewhere. I don't think any will struggle to find clubs at the same level as us.
Yeah. As I've been saying elsewhere, the social media criticism may have been too much for Morgan and Inniss. Idk if Clare was offered a deal or if so, if he was put off by criticism. All three SHOULD land in League One, let's see.
I would be surprised if Clare, Innis and Morgan didn't have contract discussions over the past 6 months or so with the club. I wouldn't be surprised if all 3 were actually offered contracts but decided to leave on a free and go elsewhere. I don't think any will struggle to find clubs at the same level as us.
Yeah. As I've been saying elsewhere, the social media criticism may have been too much for Morgan and Inniss. Idk if Clare was offered a deal or if so, if he was put off by criticism. All three SHOULD land in League One, let's see.
Someone of Innis character wouldn't take social media too much into account, it'd be more to do with what was offered. Morgan will have been advised to move away, likely get better pay/signing on fee and will be looking to go to a club where he starts and plays much more. Clare I think will just take his chances elesewhere.
I wouldn't be surprised if Morgan stays relatively local, Gillingham, AFC or maybe Orient, he played some of his best football around Pratley, although not sure if he's retiring.
I would be surprised if Clare, Innis and Morgan didn't have contract discussions over the past 6 months or so with the club. I wouldn't be surprised if all 3 were actually offered contracts but decided to leave on a free and go elsewhere. I don't think any will struggle to find clubs at the same level as us.
Yeah. As I've been saying elsewhere, the social media criticism may have been too much for Morgan and Inniss. Idk if Clare was offered a deal or if so, if he was put off by criticism. All three SHOULD land in League One, let's see.
Someone of Innis character wouldn't take social media too much into account, it'd be more to do with what was offered. Morgan will have been advised to move away, likely get better pay/signing on fee and will be looking to go to a club where he starts and plays much more. Clare I think will just take his chances elesewhere.
I wouldn't be surprised if Morgan stays relatively local, Gillingham, AFC or maybe Orient, he played some of his best football around Pratley, although not sure if he's retiring.
Perhaps you're right about Inniss. He's been through enough in life to have a fairly thick hide. Morgan less so, I'd wager
Comments
That’s possibly 2 more seasons of having to find Kirk loan moves. That would be some kind of record. A loan move in every year of his contract with us. It’s not out the question either. Unless we decide to take a token fee, just to get his wages off the books
Aneke, another problem entirely. We’re stuck with him
That's not to say we still won't cheap out on wages, it's just to say I think these moves, on face value, are based on the abilities of the players, not just the financial situation of the club. Of course, we also don't know the terms of the contracts offered.
I think it's too early to say that about the U21s as well. We are badly short of fullbacks, so having some depth in the U21s isn't the worst idea in the world. But given Roddy was handed his league debut on the last day of the season, I think it's safe to say that Holden sees something in him.
That said, if he's our second choice LB next season, then worry.
As for Santos, don't know much about him but some of on here have spoken well of him I believe. Don't know much about Viggers.
Bakrin seemed to be the highest rated young CB at the club at one point at the start of the season. So while I haven't seen enough of him to have a strong opinion, I'm not surprised he gets offered a deal.
I feel like I have to say, after reading this thread: Not everything is bad news.
I understand how people adopt that mentality. It's an adaptation from years of experience. But taken on its face, these are good moves. They move on players deemed not good enough, and they at least attempt to retain those who good/have potential.
Albie has had some great games, deserves our thanks, but he's just not impactful enough in the tough games, when he has no space.
That is why I am suspicious as to why we are holding on to some this season, the reason I picked on the 4 I did is as follows:
Nazir Bakrin is 20, Cray Wanderers terminated his loan after 10 games this season, they play in the Isthmian Premier League (tier 7/8 of UK football). We have Mitchell, Elerwere, Dench and Laqeratabua all vying for U21's game time next season who need to play regularly to develop.
Jeremy Santos is 20, he was on loan in the National League South with Tonbridge Angels.
Ryan Viggars is a 20 yr old striker, he went on loan to Needham Market in the Southern League Premier Division Central where he got 2 goals in 5 then to Maidstone in the National League South where he got none in 8 games. Maybe we know Casey is not signing his contract so need space fillers upfront?
Jacob Roddy is 20. If he isn't good enough to be back up LB at a L1 club then why waste money on his wages at 20yrs? If we want young third choice back up we already have Bower signed to a pro contract and is a LB who should be playing U21's for his development next season.
Add to that the rumours Innis and Albie chose to leave as they didn't like our offers rather than us choosing to release them and there is certainly significant reason to be suspicious.
As far as retaining those four, we're talking about four, not 14. I think all four have played for the senior side, albeit three in the Pizza Cup, so it's not even someone like Dylan Gavin, where he was prolific at U21 level but never seemed close to the first team, even when we lacked Strikers.
I feel like fixating on four 20 year Olds who will be on small wages after a massive clear out is missing the forest for the trees a bit. If one of them comes good and turns into even a squad player, then the gamble pays off. If not, we haven't spent a ton on them, and they can sit on the U21 bench. Or go one loan to the 7th tier.
Don't get me wrong, Santos and Viggers could be out two new midfielders for next season, at which point, panic and worry about relegation. But I don't think we're there yet.
I think there are plenty of reasons to be suspicious. I'm just nor convinced that the retention of four U21 players is that reason, and I obviously can't weigh in on the Albie and Inniss contract stuff.
You could pick 11 fans each week who would try hard and put effort in, it doesn't mean we'd win games though.
Surprised to see such mixed reviews on Hector as for me his reading of the game, composure, positioning and passing easily make him a Championship standard centre half.
Going to need another couple of CBs though as Mitchell needs a loan and Lavelle is a L2 player. Is Naby Sarr available?!
TS knew all this stuff when he bought the club, so our financial situation cannot come as a surprise to him. He thought he could apply some American managerial skills that the Brits didn't have and so get us out of this league. 5-year plan, anyone?
Has that element been fully removed yet?
The "No dickheads" policy sounds great on paper but might cause issues if the choice is between a good character on a high wage and a cheap dickhead.
I feel I don’t really know much about him as a player. My perception is he didn’t get a consistent series of games to really prove himself one way or the other and of course he arrived at a difficult time for him personally. But then again maybe there is a reason why.
Clare I think will just take his chances elesewhere.
I wouldn't be surprised if Morgan stays relatively local, Gillingham, AFC or maybe Orient, he played some of his best football around Pratley, although not sure if he's retiring.