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The poster who said they were offered terms said they were offered a reduced wage on a lower squad status. (Which in true CL fashion is now being accepted as fact...). Even if true, offering a footballer a wage cut is practically the same as showing them the door.
Who would answer yes to the question: "Do you want to stay here, play less and earn less money?"12 -
Recent Roddy has seen a burly enthusiasm who is lacking in silky skills and tricks, but is full of endeavour and when in uncontested possession tends to find a team mate.
I am surprised he is staying, also the skilled and tricky Santos who I think so far has flattered to deceive, and I have never seen in Viggars what others must see in him.
Hope I am wrong and all those players end up as world beaters.2 -
There is a very significant amount of recruitment to be done. While a few of the youngsters are listed in the squad, I am not expecting them to be regulars quite yet, regardless of what we witnessed this year, based on what I was told at the POTY dinner (though they will of course be supported and have chances/some appearances). I also expect 2-3 of those returning to be flogged.1
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Bit harsh.6
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Treacey1969 said:Absolute bollocks about Albie. Better player that was totally misunderstood by the Charlton Life faithful let alone the management. Would rather see his endeavour than the Gilby/Fraser/Kirk/Payne/Henry/Jayasimi who are lazy and not effective .
Hope he is moving because of a better offer than Charlton can provide.
Yep, the hundreds of fans who watched him every week and the management and coaching staff who see him every day and have decided he is not good enough to offer a new contract have misunderstood him, but @r@raytreacy69 gets him and knows he should be the rock we build our team around8 -
Harsh maybe but not unhappy that any of those players are leaving2
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Mentioned earlier that it's all well and good being happy with the release list, but what if their replacements are undercooked youth?
Clayden, Chin, Henry, Roddy, Deji, Kanu etc.
I wouldn't assume that we are ready to sign improvements above the level of those released. Maybe I'm too scarred!2 -
Looked at as we stand, a disinterested Mr Sandgaard still paying the bills, there is a greater likelihood of ‘undercooked’ young players being played.
It may not be as bad as people think to become a ‘young’ team and club.0 -
I didn’t say reduced terms. Both players were already on very low wages compared to the rest. Inniss because palace paid up his contract so that we could pay him less and Morgan because he came through the academy and at the times of signing contracts hasn’t been seen as a key player.Chunes said:hThe poster who said they were offered terms said they were offered a reduced wage on a lower squad status. (Which in true CL fashion is now being accepted as fact...). Even if true, offering a footballer a wage cut is practically the same as showing them the door.
Who would answer yes to the question: "Do you want to stay here, play less and earn less money?"1 -
The important thing with your last point is that academy players become part of the first team because they’re both ready and good enough. Leaburn, Ness, AMB and Campbell are all examples of that.seth plum said:Looked at as we stand, a disinterested Mr Sandgaard still paying the bills, there is a greater likelihood of ‘undercooked’ young players being played.
It may not be as bad as people think to become a ‘young’ team and club.
Both RD and TS forced managers to use youth players who aren't suitable for the wrong reasons - trying to use the academy more and compete with a cheaper squad. Clayden, Davison, Lennon, Kennedy and Charles-Cook all ended up in that position. They don’t become ready or good enough just by throwing them in the first team.5 -
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I agree about throwing in out of desperation. I remember the faux enthusiasm Karl Robinson seemed forced to exhude over Aaron Barnes.Scoham said:
The important thing with your last point is that academy players become part of the first team because they’re both ready and good enough. Leaburn, Ness, AMB and Campbell are all examples of that.seth plum said:Looked at as we stand, a disinterested Mr Sandgaard still paying the bills, there is a greater likelihood of ‘undercooked’ young players being played.
It may not be as bad as people think to become a ‘young’ team and club.
Both RD and TS forced managers to use youth players who aren't suitable for the wrong reasons - trying to use the academy more and compete with a cheaper squad. Clayden, Davison, Lennon, Kennedy and Charles-Cook all ended up in that position. They don’t become ready or good enough just by throwing them in the first team.
No, don’t ’throw’ players into the first team, but manage them and manage integration but also be a bit brave.0 -
Re: Morgan to Wimbledon. It’s an obvious link, but my friend who supports AFC said they’ve changed the structure there now and there’s a Director of Football and more people involved in who they bring, not just Jackson, so it may not be as straightforward. That’s a good thing for Wimbledon, as it led to Jackson bringing in the likes of Gunter without any accountability. He also thinks they have too many players on wages they can’t shift like Kirk and Aneke for us, so might not have much wiggle room to afford Morgan.
Gillingham could be a logical move for him1 -
Yes it can go the other way by not being brave, but those four who played this season along with others such as Mitchell and Kanu being involved shows that’s not an issue for us as a club.seth plum said:
I agree about throwing in out of desperation. I remember the faux enthusiasm Karl Robinson seemed forced to exhude over Aaron Barnes.Scoham said:
The important thing with your last point is that academy players become part of the first team because they’re both ready and good enough. Leaburn, Ness, AMB and Campbell are all examples of that.seth plum said:Looked at as we stand, a disinterested Mr Sandgaard still paying the bills, there is a greater likelihood of ‘undercooked’ young players being played.
It may not be as bad as people think to become a ‘young’ team and club.
Both RD and TS forced managers to use youth players who aren't suitable for the wrong reasons - trying to use the academy more and compete with a cheaper squad. Clayden, Davison, Lennon, Kennedy and Charles-Cook all ended up in that position. They don’t become ready or good enough just by throwing them in the first team.
No, don’t ’throw’ players into the first team, but manage them and manage integration but also be a bit brave.0 -
I can't see any of the three ending up at clubs challenging for promotion though.Rob7Lee said:I would be surprised if Clare, Innis and Morgan didn't have contract discussions over the past 6 months or so with the club. I wouldn't be surprised if all 3 were actually offered contracts but decided to leave on a free and go elsewhere. I don't think any will struggle to find clubs at the same level as us.1 -
Richard J said:
And, of course, Dennis Booth only ever played Second Division (today's Championship) games for Charlton and Blackpool.
I never saw Booth play for Charlton, but he had a successful career at this level for Hull , Lincoln and Watford where he was a key part of Graham Taylor's first couple of promotion teams.Bailey said:
He did Lewis and it could be argued so did Clare. My point was that they were never able to hold down a place, Dennis Booth, as I remember played almost a season covering an injured Bob Curtis at right back but never kept Bob out when he returned. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the only positions that Denis Booth didn't play was goalkeeper, centre half and centre forward.Lewis Coaches said:
Love to see you say that face to face with Dennis Booth.Bailey said:
Reminded me of a modern day Denis Booth, both were stop gap players, never quite good enough to be your first choice in whatever position they played.AFKABartram said:I consistently seem to rate Clare higher than other people
knew how to play with pride and commitment.
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Unless his agent reckons he's got one elsewhere already!AFKABartram said:
I can’t see Thomas getting too many offers elsewhere tbhkillerandflash said:Whether Hector and Thomas re-sign will be interesting. I wonder what sort of deals we are offering?
If both refuse, we'll have to recruit almost a whole new defence
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At the end of the day none of the released players are good enough to be in a promotion chasing team, which we are hopefully aiming to be?
so goodbye and good luck with your careers, and let’s HOPEFULLY replace with better. 🙏1 -
Some people also seem to forget, that young players develop at different ages. It's not even always a question of abilty.SDAddick said:
where have the rumors that Inniss and Albie turned down deals come from? I see them referenced in this thread, but have not seen the source.Athletico Charlton said:
I am a big fan of all the lads who come through at Charlton and happy to give them as long as possible to prove themselves and of course the U21's does mean you have a weird number of young players who are retained simply to make up the numbers each year but with a great bunch of U18s, some very good u21s already and first teamers needing game time when returning from injury we need to be careful not to overfill the u21 squad and have players just sitting around. Plus how many player wages/contracts should a L1 club have..?SDAddick said:
If the strategy is to only break even through wages, then I think it's more likely we would have offered Morgan and Clare deals, and not Hector or even Thomas, who came to us from a Championship club.Athletico Charlton said:Not bothered by any of those leaving albeit I would have considered retaining Albie. Issue for me is why? If released because we have big plans and the budget to improve then great. If released because we are trying to break even and Albie and Innis were offered peanuts which we will now use to bring in even worse performers and play the kids who aren’t ready then that is a huge issue. Only time will tell.
extending Roddy, Santos and Viggars none of whom have pushed on and offering Bakrin a deal who is the same worries me a bit that we will be going down the same ‘Claydon’ route as last season
That's not to say we still won't cheap out on wages, it's just to say I think these moves, on face value, are based on the abilities of the players, not just the financial situation of the club. Of course, we also don't know the terms of the contracts offered.
I think it's too early to say that about the U21s as well. We are badly short of fullbacks, so having some depth in the U21s isn't the worst idea in the world. But given Roddy was handed his league debut on the last day of the season, I think it's safe to say that Holden sees something in him.
That said, if he's our second choice LB next season, then worry.
As for Santos, don't know much about him but some of on here have spoken well of him I believe. Don't know much about Viggers.
Bakrin seemed to be the highest rated young CB at the club at one point at the start of the season. So while I haven't seen enough of him to have a strong opinion, I'm not surprised he gets offered a deal.
I feel like I have to say, after reading this thread: Not everything is bad news.
I understand how people adopt that mentality. It's an adaptation from years of experience. But taken on its face, these are good moves. They move on players deemed not good enough, and they at least attempt to retain those who good/have potential.
That is why I am suspicious as to why we are holding on to some this season, the reason I picked on the 4 I did is as follows:
Nazir Bakrin is 20, Cray Wanderers terminated his loan after 10 games this season, they play in the Isthmian Premier League (tier 7/8 of UK football). We have Mitchell, Elerwere, Dench and Laqeratabua all vying for U21's game time next season who need to play regularly to develop.
Jeremy Santos is 20, he was on loan in the National League South with Tonbridge Angels.
Ryan Viggars is a 20 yr old striker, he went on loan to Needham Market in the Southern League Premier Division Central where he got 2 goals in 5 then to Maidstone in the National League South where he got none in 8 games. Maybe we know Casey is not signing his contract so need space fillers upfront?
Jacob Roddy is 20. If he isn't good enough to be back up LB at a L1 club then why waste money on his wages at 20yrs? If we want young third choice back up we already have Bower signed to a pro contract and is a LB who should be playing U21's for his development next season.
Add to that the rumours Innis and Albie chose to leave as they didn't like our offers rather than us choosing to release them and there is certainly significant reason to be suspicious.
As far as retaining those four, we're talking about four, not 14. I think all four have played for the senior side, albeit three in the Pizza Cup, so it's not even someone like Dylan Gavin, where he was prolific at U21 level but never seemed close to the first team, even when we lacked Strikers.
I feel like fixating on four 20 year Olds who will be on small wages after a massive clear out is missing the forest for the trees a bit. If one of them comes good and turns into even a squad player, then the gamble pays off. If not, we haven't spent a ton on them, and they can sit on the U21 bench. Or go one loan to the 7th tier.
Don't get me wrong, Santos and Viggers could be out two new midfielders for next season, at which point, panic and worry about relegation. But I don't think we're there yet.
I think there are plenty of reasons to be suspicious. I'm just nor convinced that the retention of four U21 players is that reason, and I obviously can't weigh in on the Albie and Inniss contract stuff.
Miles Leaburn at 18 was considered physically strong enough, and mentally able to cope with the pressure and expectation of mens' football, and added to the 1st team squad.
That of course doesn't mean that all youngsters are ready for 1st team matches at 18.
We look back during the past 30 years to Lee Bowyer, Paul Konchesky, John Jo Shelvey, Joe Gomez, etc., all at 16 or 17.
But remember Scottie P*rk*r ..... undoubted talent, star of the MacDonald's junk food adverts but very Albie Morgan-esque, couldn't make any impact (albeit Prem lol) ...... but at 20 years old eventually sent on loan to a team in the division below, found his feet, physicality and self belief - and came back every inch the player we never thought we'd ever see.
Or should we have instead unloaded him to Gillingham?
I do believe patience is required for the development of young players, the timing has to be right to introduce them to 1st team squads, the manager has to be ready to risk the fact that a youngster may make a mistake that cost the team points - often a manager is afraid to take that chance.
That's why these lads are sent out to the National League to gain experience, toughen up and be monitored in mens' football.
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Not really in my eyes, he is a wimpy CB and stands off forwards. There's no battle in him.Oggy Red said:
Shame about Lavelle, good character apparently and would be decent enough at this level if only he didn't seem to be running in treacle.mendonca said:Kirk and Lavelle couldn't even get into their teams they were on loan with....duds.0 -
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It seems Holden won't have any truck with that.valleynick66 said:Wasn’t there talk of a bad attitude / poor behaviour by some players which was impacting the squad?
Has that element been fully removed yet?
No dickhead rule. Anyone who is disruptive and doesn't knuckle down will be moved on.
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surprised Henry has been retained .. a cynic (who me ?) might say it's because he's a spot filling body who is not paid a lot0
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Well this has been the plan for the past 2 seasons. Adkins admitted it in his pre-season & all those who were at Welling in July 2021 saw us blood the youngsters......and then after a couple of months we were in the bottom 4.mendonca said:Mentioned earlier that it's all well and good being happy with the release list, but what if their replacements are undercooked youth?
Clayden, Chin, Henry, Roddy, Deji, Kanu etc.
I wouldn't assume that we are ready to sign improvements above the level of those released. Maybe I'm too scarred!
Not holding my breath that 23/24 will be any different, even with new owners.0 -
On our anticipated budget, I'd guess that that type of squad player is essential and in all likelihood we'll have a strong first 11, at best, and poundland subs.Lincsaddick said:surprised Henry has been retained .. a cynic (who me ?) might say it's because he's a spot filling body who is not paid a lot0 -
I’ll be amazed if any of them get a deal better than bottom half of League One. More likely League Two in Inniss and Albie’s cases… we will see.Rob7Lee said:I would be surprised if Clare, Innis and Morgan didn't have contract discussions over the past 6 months or so with the club. I wouldn't be surprised if all 3 were actually offered contracts but decided to leave on a free and go elsewhere. I don't think any will struggle to find clubs at the same level as us.3 -
That's probably the same level as us next season!Callumcafc said:
I’ll be amazed if any of them get a deal better than bottom half of League One. More likely League Two in Inniss and Albie’s cases… we will see.Rob7Lee said:I would be surprised if Clare, Innis and Morgan didn't have contract discussions over the past 6 months or so with the club. I wouldn't be surprised if all 3 were actually offered contracts but decided to leave on a free and go elsewhere. I don't think any will struggle to find clubs at the same level as us.0 -
I don't share your analysis of Parker. He was clearly one of our rising stars, but needed some games/time below Prem level in order to push on. Morgan has had that lower-league time now, and he hasn't progressed sufficiently - he looks no better than when he did in 2018-19. Parker was always on an upward trajectory, whereas latterly the conveyor belt has delivered too many energetic-but-limited types Morgan, Dempsey, Vennings, Lapslie (& Henry unless he can up his game). Yes, give them time, but at some point you have to cut your losses. I'd rather give McGrandles another chance...Oggy Red said:
Some people also seem to forget, that young players develop at different ages. It's not even always a question of abilty.SDAddick said:
where have the rumors that Inniss and Albie turned down deals come from? I see them referenced in this thread, but have not seen the source.Athletico Charlton said:
I am a big fan of all the lads who come through at Charlton and happy to give them as long as possible to prove themselves and of course the U21's does mean you have a weird number of young players who are retained simply to make up the numbers each year but with a great bunch of U18s, some very good u21s already and first teamers needing game time when returning from injury we need to be careful not to overfill the u21 squad and have players just sitting around. Plus how many player wages/contracts should a L1 club have..?SDAddick said:
If the strategy is to only break even through wages, then I think it's more likely we would have offered Morgan and Clare deals, and not Hector or even Thomas, who came to us from a Championship club.Athletico Charlton said:Not bothered by any of those leaving albeit I would have considered retaining Albie. Issue for me is why? If released because we have big plans and the budget to improve then great. If released because we are trying to break even and Albie and Innis were offered peanuts which we will now use to bring in even worse performers and play the kids who aren’t ready then that is a huge issue. Only time will tell.
extending Roddy, Santos and Viggars none of whom have pushed on and offering Bakrin a deal who is the same worries me a bit that we will be going down the same ‘Claydon’ route as last season
That's not to say we still won't cheap out on wages, it's just to say I think these moves, on face value, are based on the abilities of the players, not just the financial situation of the club. Of course, we also don't know the terms of the contracts offered.
I think it's too early to say that about the U21s as well. We are badly short of fullbacks, so having some depth in the U21s isn't the worst idea in the world. But given Roddy was handed his league debut on the last day of the season, I think it's safe to say that Holden sees something in him.
That said, if he's our second choice LB next season, then worry.
As for Santos, don't know much about him but some of on here have spoken well of him I believe. Don't know much about Viggers.
Bakrin seemed to be the highest rated young CB at the club at one point at the start of the season. So while I haven't seen enough of him to have a strong opinion, I'm not surprised he gets offered a deal.
I feel like I have to say, after reading this thread: Not everything is bad news.
I understand how people adopt that mentality. It's an adaptation from years of experience. But taken on its face, these are good moves. They move on players deemed not good enough, and they at least attempt to retain those who good/have potential.
That is why I am suspicious as to why we are holding on to some this season, the reason I picked on the 4 I did is as follows:
Nazir Bakrin is 20, Cray Wanderers terminated his loan after 10 games this season, they play in the Isthmian Premier League (tier 7/8 of UK football). We have Mitchell, Elerwere, Dench and Laqeratabua all vying for U21's game time next season who need to play regularly to develop.
Jeremy Santos is 20, he was on loan in the National League South with Tonbridge Angels.
Ryan Viggars is a 20 yr old striker, he went on loan to Needham Market in the Southern League Premier Division Central where he got 2 goals in 5 then to Maidstone in the National League South where he got none in 8 games. Maybe we know Casey is not signing his contract so need space fillers upfront?
Jacob Roddy is 20. If he isn't good enough to be back up LB at a L1 club then why waste money on his wages at 20yrs? If we want young third choice back up we already have Bower signed to a pro contract and is a LB who should be playing U21's for his development next season.
Add to that the rumours Innis and Albie chose to leave as they didn't like our offers rather than us choosing to release them and there is certainly significant reason to be suspicious.
As far as retaining those four, we're talking about four, not 14. I think all four have played for the senior side, albeit three in the Pizza Cup, so it's not even someone like Dylan Gavin, where he was prolific at U21 level but never seemed close to the first team, even when we lacked Strikers.
I feel like fixating on four 20 year Olds who will be on small wages after a massive clear out is missing the forest for the trees a bit. If one of them comes good and turns into even a squad player, then the gamble pays off. If not, we haven't spent a ton on them, and they can sit on the U21 bench. Or go one loan to the 7th tier.
Don't get me wrong, Santos and Viggers could be out two new midfielders for next season, at which point, panic and worry about relegation. But I don't think we're there yet.
I think there are plenty of reasons to be suspicious. I'm just nor convinced that the retention of four U21 players is that reason, and I obviously can't weigh in on the Albie and Inniss contract stuff.
Miles Leaburn at 18 was considered physically strong enough, and mentally able to cope with the pressure and expectation of mens' football, and added to the 1st team squad.
That of course doesn't mean that all youngsters are ready for 1st team matches at 18.
We look back during the past 30 years to Lee Bowyer, Paul Konchesky, John Jo Shelvey, Joe Gomez, etc., all at 16 or 17.
But remember Scottie P*rk*r ..... undoubted talent, star of the MacDonald's junk food adverts but very Albie Morgan-esque, couldn't make any impact (albeit Prem lol) ...... but at 20 years old eventually sent on loan to a team in the division below, found his feet, physicality and self belief - and came back every inch the player we never thought we'd ever see.
Or should we have instead unloaded him to Gillingham?
I do believe patience is required for the development of young players, the timing has to be right to introduce them to 1st team squads, the manager has to be ready to risk the fact that a youngster may make a mistake that cost the team points - often a manager is afraid to take that chance.
That's why these lads are sent out to the National League to gain experience, toughen up and be monitored in mens' football.
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Are you saying that the price that TS paid for the club was entirely based on player values?IdleHans said:
Amortisation of intangible assets is £786K and relates entirely to player values. There's no goodwill.Happy Valley said:
I would be interested to see the cash flow rather than the Profit and Loss. It is possible to load depreciation into the books and that is a non-cash item. Given that TS only bought non-tangible assets, i.e. goodwill as opposed to goodwill plus a stadium, I would assume that the level of depreciation is high because the goodwill has to be written off. What is important is the cash flow, because that will decide whether we can continue in business without financial support.se9addick said:
Not even close. I think the last accounts suggested we were losing £10M an year excluding income from transfer fees. Based on that we would need to reduce wages by circa £200k per week to break even. The salaries of the players released won’t even touch the sides.Mendonca In Asdas said:If you added up the weekly wages , of players that have just been let go how much will that knock off the wage bill, and have we reached break even yet?Breaking even is a total fallacy for a club like us in L1.
TS knew all this stuff when he bought the club, so our financial situation cannot come as a surprise to him. He thought he could apply some American managerial skills that the Brits didn't have and so get us out of this league. 5-year plan, anyone?0 -
I think he is so underrated and it's interesting that there is more comment from Charlton fans about Albie than any other.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
I don't think anyone questioned his endeavour, but if you're being honest you can surely admit we need better.Treacey1969 said:Absolute bollocks about Albie. Better player that was totally misunderstood by the Charlton Life faithful let alone the management. Would rather see his endeavour than the Gilby/Fraser/Kirk/Payne/Henry/Jayasimi who are lazy and not effective .
Hope he is moving because of a better offer than Charlton can provide.
You could pick 11 fans each week who would try hard and put effort in, it doesn't mean we'd win games though.
Why is that ?
I do actually feel that he would shine in a better team.
Elsewhere on threads supporters have bemoaned our midfield however despite having a player who made the most tackles in the EFL we had a defence that leaks goals. Yes leaks goals....... yet one player is continually singled out. A misplaced pass is moaned about more than a defender acting like a statue.
The fact we need "better" is obvious but we're not in the market for £2/3M+ players.
Sorry to dissapoint but I think at this stage it's a mistake to let him go albeit it may actually be his decision.
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