Yeah, Liam Dawson feels like he should be an automatic all-formats pick in the subcontinent at least if not anywhere right now
Of course, had Stokes been able to bowl then things might have been different as we wouldn't then have picked six other seamers. But I suppose the question is whether we really needed six anyway? India only have five seamers in their squad and have picked just three in this game, one of which, Hardik Pandya, is really there to do the all rounders role. I suppose the acid test will be how many games someone like Willey will play as against how many Dawson might have played.
Serious question when was the last time Rashid and Ali were avaliable and any other spinner was picked above them? In any format?
Liam Dawson will be 34 at the start of next summer so he isn't a long term solution. Ahmed won't be 20 until the end of it.
Not watching the game, so is it an absolute minefield out there or are India just bowling really well?
India have bowled exceptionally well but it is safe to say that this isn't an easy track to bat on. The truth is that they have prepared a tailor made surface and executed their disciplines to perfection.
Yeah, Liam Dawson feels like he should be an automatic all-formats pick in the subcontinent at least if not anywhere right now
Of course, had Stokes been able to bowl then things might have been different as we wouldn't then have picked six other seamers. But I suppose the question is whether we really needed six anyway? India only have five seamers in their squad and have picked just three in this game, one of which, Hardik Pandya, is really there to do the all rounders role. I suppose the acid test will be how many games someone like Willey will play as against how many Dawson might have played.
Serious question when was the last time Rashid and Ali were avaliable and any other spinner was picked above them? In any format?
Liam Dawson will be 34 at the start of next summer so he isn't a long term solution. Ahmed won't be 20 until the end of it.
There must be someone in the middle, somewhere?
You only have to look at the leading wicket takers in the CC to see why that is. That is the starting point for all spinners (no county is going to offer a white ball only contract to a spinner) which means that they have to prove themselves first in red ball. It is that mode of the game that gives them the overs needed to learn their game. But when eight out of 14 CC matches are played in April/May and September, when conditions are most suitable for seamers, spinners simply aren't going to get to do that.
To illustrate this point, below are the leading wicket takers in the CC from 30 years ago (1993). The ones in bold are the 12 spinners that took 44 or more wickets in the CC of which all bar one was qualified to play for England. This season there were two spinners that took 44 or more wickets - Harmer (not qualified) and Dawson
My son mentioned Fraser-McGurk's innings this morning to me - 125 off 38 balls. Absolutely ridiculous. The point he made, though, is that the wickets in Australia so much favour batsmen because of the true nature of the bounce and pace. You can literally just hit through the line of the ball without fear of movement off the pitch or that the ball is going to stop on you. It was impossible to do that for Australia today.
Has anyone ever lost 3 wickets in an ODI before a run off the bat?
Pakistan were 1-4, after 3.1 overs chasing 311 to win against West Indies in the 2015 World Cup. The first three wickets were ducks, but Shazhad had the temerity to score a run off the bat before the third wicket went. He was fourth out. For one.
Sri Lanka started wicket, wicket, wicket against Bangladesh in the 2003 World Cup, so Bangladesh were 0-3 after half an over.
And, famously, in a Test match, Fred Trueman reduced India to 0-4.
Has anyone ever lost 3 wickets in an ODI before a run off the bat?
Pakistan were 1-4, after 3.1 overs chasing 311 to win against West Indies in the 2015 World Cup. The first three wickets were ducks, but Shazhad had the temerity to score a run off the bat before the third wicket went. He was fourth out. For one.
Sri Lanka started wicket, wicket, wicket against Sri Lanka in the 2003 World Cup, so were were 0-3 after half an over.
And, famously, in a Test match, Fred Trueman reduced India to 0-4.
Sri Lanka started wicket, wicket, wicket against Sri Lanka ?
The Aussies look short of spinners. Strange that Labuschagne bowls much more in Tests and in white ball cricket
I mentioned that I thought that Australia were "all over the place" at the start of this thread and that was as much in connection with their inability to select a balanced squad. Labuschagne wasn't in the original 15 but came into the series against SA and did well. Agar lost his place to a calf injury and rather than include someone like Sangha they opted to go with the extra batsman in the shape of Labuschagne - primarily because Head wasn't going to be fit for the start of the WC. These issues are further compounded by the form of Zampa who is very up and down at the moment.
Yeah, Liam Dawson feels like he should be an automatic all-formats pick in the subcontinent at least if not anywhere right now
Of course, had Stokes been able to bowl then things might have been different as we wouldn't then have picked six other seamers. But I suppose the question is whether we really needed six anyway? India only have five seamers in their squad and have picked just three in this game, one of which, Hardik Pandya, is really there to do the all rounders role. I suppose the acid test will be how many games someone like Willey will play as against how many Dawson might have played.
Serious question when was the last time Rashid and Ali were avaliable and any other spinner was picked above them? In any format?
Liam Dawson will be 34 at the start of next summer so he isn't a long term solution. Ahmed won't be 20 until the end of it.
There must be someone in the middle, somewhere?
You only have to look at the leading wicket takers in the CC to see why that is. That is the starting point for all spinners (no county is going to offer a white ball only contract to a spinner) which means that they have to prove themselves first in red ball. It is that mode of the game that gives them the overs needed to learn their game. But when eight out of 14 CC matches are played in April/May and September, when conditions are most suitable for seamers, spinners simply aren't going to get to do that.
To illustrate this point, below are the leading wicket takers in the CC from 30 years ago (1993). The ones in bold are the 12 spinners that took 44 or more wickets in the CC of which all bar one was qualified to play for England. This season there were two spinners that took 44 or more wickets - Harmer (not qualified) and Dawson
Sorry I missed this amongst the Cam Green/Aussie baiting.
This is a very new thing though, it explains the lack of 22/23 year old spinners but not the 28/29 ones.
I looked at the 2019 CCC wicket takers and Harmer and Patel were right at the top then the only spin bowlers I recognised were Leach and Bess bowling on bunsens.
Teams must use spinners in the blast? They clearly aren't "away with England". So who are they and why aren't they in the frame for England?
Yeah, Liam Dawson feels like he should be an automatic all-formats pick in the subcontinent at least if not anywhere right now
Of course, had Stokes been able to bowl then things might have been different as we wouldn't then have picked six other seamers. But I suppose the question is whether we really needed six anyway? India only have five seamers in their squad and have picked just three in this game, one of which, Hardik Pandya, is really there to do the all rounders role. I suppose the acid test will be how many games someone like Willey will play as against how many Dawson might have played.
Serious question when was the last time Rashid and Ali were avaliable and any other spinner was picked above them? In any format?
Liam Dawson will be 34 at the start of next summer so he isn't a long term solution. Ahmed won't be 20 until the end of it.
There must be someone in the middle, somewhere?
You only have to look at the leading wicket takers in the CC to see why that is. That is the starting point for all spinners (no county is going to offer a white ball only contract to a spinner) which means that they have to prove themselves first in red ball. It is that mode of the game that gives them the overs needed to learn their game. But when eight out of 14 CC matches are played in April/May and September, when conditions are most suitable for seamers, spinners simply aren't going to get to do that.
To illustrate this point, below are the leading wicket takers in the CC from 30 years ago (1993). The ones in bold are the 12 spinners that took 44 or more wickets in the CC of which all bar one was qualified to play for England. This season there were two spinners that took 44 or more wickets - Harmer (not qualified) and Dawson
Sorry I missed this amongst the Cam Green/Aussie baiting.
This is a very new thing though, it explains the lack of 22/23 year old spinners but not the 28/29 ones.
I looked at the 2019 CCC wicket takers and Harmer and Patel were right at the top then the only spin bowlers I recognised were Leach and Bess bowling on bunsens.
Teams must use spinners in the blast? They clearly aren't "away with England". So who are they and why aren't they in the frame for England?
The playing of at least half of the fixtures in the CC early and late season has been going on for a while. This came about firstly from the emphasis on the 40/50 over comps combined with The Blast and then The Hundred taking up a fair proportion of those weeks. Spinners thrive on dry, bouncy wickets typically in June/July/August and these are the number of CC games played during that period for every decade in the last 30 years:
1993 - 12 2003 - 9 2013 - 6 2023 - 5
If we accept the premise that bowlers need to cut their teeth by bowling over after over that playing in the CC as that affords them the time to bowl both defensively and with a view to taking wickets then we probably have to accept that it is difficult for a spinner who gets a chance to bowl a maximum of 4 overs in white ball is likely to do so - any young bowler getting carted for a dozen in each of an over or two is unlikely to bowl his full allocation. So what will counties do in white ball given those circumstance? They'll utilise a batting all rounder and/or enlist the services of the established mercenary who has bags of experience e.g. Surrey (and this isn't a pop at them for once, I am just using them as an example) - who used Jacks and Narine to fulfill those roles to the detriment of the likes of Moriarty and Virdi who played one game in The Blast this season between them.
Which brings me onto this year's Blast. This is a list of the top 40 wicket takers and the highlighted ones are those that are spinners that are qualified to play for England:
So we have half a dozen or so English qualified spinners in the top 40 that took 15 or more wickets in The Blast. None jump of the page as ready to send to a WC with a couple being raw 22 year olds and most of the others are too old or not good enough/bowling is their second string discipline. We've already established that Dawson is the only English qualified spinner to have taken 40 or more wickets in the CC.
It doesn't make economic sense for counties to invest heavily in spinners when they might get a maximum of half a dozen games in the CC and those bowlers not have developed as a result the control and skillset to perform at the top level in white ball. And that means that counties might only carry two spinners on their books. Look at Kent - they have signed Matt Parkinson from Lancs (who also played on loan at Kent) and have Qadri already contracted. Nijjar played for them at the end of the season on loan and having been released by Essex is available to sign. But does it really make economic sense to do so when they could take a loan in again if one or other gets injured or sign a Chahal as they did on a short term deal as they also did? Talking about Parkinson, he played for Lancs, Durham and Kent this season in three different comps. He should have been playing both red and white ball for Lancs and knocking on that England door. But like Moriarty, Virdi, Nijjar etc etc, spinners really aren't in favour right now and it takes a special kind of cricketer to bounce back when door after door keeps slamming. Every team has up to four specialist batsmen and as many as four seamers but some teams in the CC don't have a single specialist spinner.
That is why we have no obvious England spinners. You rightly mentioned Rehan Ahmed but just look at how he performed in County cricket this season from limited exposure. In the CC he took 8 wickets at 66.12 in Division 2, in The Blast he took 9 wickets at 44.33 and in The Hundred he took 9 wickets at 19.33. So, our current England squad spinner took 26 wickets in all forms of domestic cricket this season. He's 19 and should be bowling over after over learning his craft. We know what the answer is as to why he isn't. When it comes to England, he's an over protected species (remember how we called up Moeen for the Ashes) and for his County he it totally underused.
Comments
Liam Dawson will be 34 at the start of next summer so he isn't a long term solution. Ahmed won't be 20 until the end of it.
There must be someone in the middle, somewhere?
But there is something about watching the Aussies getting hammered that I find very satisfying.
Some bonkers cricket happening in it though.
Result
To illustrate this point, below are the leading wicket takers in the CC from 30 years ago (1993). The ones in bold are the 12 spinners that took 44 or more wickets in the CC of which all bar one was qualified to play for England. This season there were two spinners that took 44 or more wickets - Harmer (not qualified) and Dawson
Sri Lanka started wicket, wicket, wicket against Bangladesh in the 2003 World Cup, so Bangladesh were 0-3 after half an over.
And, famously, in a Test match, Fred Trueman reduced India to 0-4.
20-3 off 7.3
Travis Head is still in Adelaide having treatment and will join the WC later on
This is a very new thing though, it explains the lack of 22/23 year old spinners but not the 28/29 ones.
I looked at the 2019 CCC wicket takers and Harmer and Patel were right at the top then the only spin bowlers I recognised were Leach and Bess bowling on bunsens.
Teams must use spinners in the blast? They clearly aren't "away with England". So who are they and why aren't they in the frame for England?
1993 - 12
2003 - 9
2013 - 6
2023 - 5
If we accept the premise that bowlers need to cut their teeth by bowling over after over that playing in the CC as that affords them the time to bowl both defensively and with a view to taking wickets then we probably have to accept that it is difficult for a spinner who gets a chance to bowl a maximum of 4 overs in white ball is likely to do so - any young bowler getting carted for a dozen in each of an over or two is unlikely to bowl his full allocation. So what will counties do in white ball given those circumstance? They'll utilise a batting all rounder and/or enlist the services of the established mercenary who has bags of experience e.g. Surrey (and this isn't a pop at them for once, I am just using them as an example) - who used Jacks and Narine to fulfill those roles to the detriment of the likes of Moriarty and Virdi who played one game in The Blast this season between them.
Which brings me onto this year's Blast. This is a list of the top 40 wicket takers and the highlighted ones are those that are spinners that are qualified to play for England:
Henry (Som) - 31
Green (Som) - 30
Chappell (Derbs) - 26
Zaman Khan (Derbs) - 25
Sams (Essex) - 25
Sowter (Durh) - 25
Brown (Worcs) - 24
Stewart (Kent) - 24
Ellis (Hants) - 23
Critchley (Essex) - 23
Afridi (Notts) - 22
Hogan (Kent) - 22
Turner (Hants) - 21
Mousley (Warwick) - 21
Thompson (Yorks) - 20
Narine (Surrey) - 20
Scrimshaw (Derbs) - 20
Harmer (Essex) - 20
Usama Mir (Worcs) - 19
Tye (Hants) - 19
McIlroy (Glam) - 19
Taylor (Northants) - 18
C Overton (Som) - 18
Mills (Suss) - 18
Wood (Lancs) - 18
Smith (Glouc) - 18
Heldreich (Northants) - 17
Parkinson (Leics) - 17
Hatzoglou (Glam) - 17
Raine (Durh) - 16
Willey (Northants) - 16
S Curran (Surrey) 16
Cook (Essex) - 16
D'Oliveira (Worcs) - 15
Gregory (Som) - 15
Parnell (Durh) - 15
Jordan (Surrey) - 15
Wood (Hants) - 15
Payne (Glouc) - 15
Sanderson (Northants) - 15
So we have half a dozen or so English qualified spinners in the top 40 that took 15 or more wickets in The Blast. None jump of the page as ready to send to a WC with a couple being raw 22 year olds and most of the others are too old or not good enough/bowling is their second string discipline. We've already established that Dawson is the only English qualified spinner to have taken 40 or more wickets in the CC.
It doesn't make economic sense for counties to invest heavily in spinners when they might get a maximum of half a dozen games in the CC and those bowlers not have developed as a result the control and skillset to perform at the top level in white ball. And that means that counties might only carry two spinners on their books. Look at Kent - they have signed Matt Parkinson from Lancs (who also played on loan at Kent) and have Qadri already contracted. Nijjar played for them at the end of the season on loan and having been released by Essex is available to sign. But does it really make economic sense to do so when they could take a loan in again if one or other gets injured or sign a Chahal as they did on a short term deal as they also did? Talking about Parkinson, he played for Lancs, Durham and Kent this season in three different comps. He should have been playing both red and white ball for Lancs and knocking on that England door. But like Moriarty, Virdi, Nijjar etc etc, spinners really aren't in favour right now and it takes a special kind of cricketer to bounce back when door after door keeps slamming. Every team has up to four specialist batsmen and as many as four seamers but some teams in the CC don't have a single specialist spinner.
That is why we have no obvious England spinners. You rightly mentioned Rehan Ahmed but just look at how he performed in County cricket this season from limited exposure. In the CC he took 8 wickets at 66.12 in Division 2, in The Blast he took 9 wickets at 44.33 and in The Hundred he took 9 wickets at 19.33. So, our current England squad spinner took 26 wickets in all forms of domestic cricket this season. He's 19 and should be bowling over after over learning his craft. We know what the answer is as to why he isn't. When it comes to England, he's an over protected species (remember how we called up Moeen for the Ashes) and for his County he it totally underused.
0-0 off 3 overs