Going to hell is surely a worthless threat if you aim it at somebody who doesn't believe.
@ValleyOfTears. Isn’t that what conservative Christians believe though? That all unbelievers will go to hell.
I have no idea what political groups of ppl may say with regard hell. Out of love noone would ever want anyone to go there. The methods of how someone conveys this can vary greatly I grant you.
As heartbreaking as it, if some still obstinately reject Salvation then they have made their choice. But cursing people and telling them they are going to hell, no that is not right.
I don’t believe in a god and I live my life by values that I’d consider humanitarian or at least as much as 99% of people. I hate the term “Christian values”. It’s bloody insulting.
Whether you believe or not, the teachings and values attributed to Jesus is what represents Christian Values. Not that only christians have them I suspect. That's how I see it so don't find it insulting for that reason. What I find strange is the most conservative christians don't really share those values!
Values like killing women for losing their virginity out of wedlock, or killing a child for cursing their parents? Perhaps it’s the pro slavery teaching that make for Christian values?
Wait, murdering rape victims has to be the real winner.
But it’s all ok if it does no harm to others 🤦
Those values are Old Testament …. Pre Christ and as such not Christian. Part of Jewish law as described in the Torah or first five books of the old Testament
Slavery, homophobia, violence and misogyny are all "values" which are promoted in the New Testament. I think these "values" ought not to be taught.
Could you furnish us with citations in the gospels that underpin this rather bleak claim Chizz? I don't know such followers of Christ. Love all, serve all is His message. Starting with loving Him.
But the New Testament isn't just the gospels, it's also the epistles, so you're indulging in a touch of sleight of hand here. It's probably going to be St Paul's letter to someone or other, cos it normally bloody is.
AW. Good point NT v The Gospels. I think St Paul gets a bit of a bashing these days (especially from Islamic scholars) but while the gospels is the message of salvation, St Paul writes how that "working out salvation with fear and trembling" takes place. How the Christian life is lived out.
Even including "the dreaded Paul"! I still can't see how a believer would arrive at the accusations being levelled at him on this thread.
Quick Q, why won't god stop babies getting cancer, but will help your sports team win?
How do you know He doesn't [stop cancer] ? I didn't have cancer as a baby. I thank God for stopping me getting it. What an awful thing for any child and their family to endure.
And how do you know He does ? [help sports teams win]
Quick Q, why won't god stop babies getting cancer, but will help your sports team win?
How do you know He doesn't [stop cancer] ? I didn't have cancer as a baby. I thank God for stopping me getting it. What an awful thing for any child and their family to endure.
And how do you know He does ? [help sports teams win]
Sounds all a bit too Mystic Meg for my liking.
I suppose the better question might be why does god allow some children to get cancer, or starve or be abused or become ill with a myriad of horrible illnesses. If he has the power attributed to him I’d say the bloke wants a good smack on the nose.
With the amount of time humans have been on the planet, following of organised religion only represents a small time period. It's also going to fade out more and more as time goes on and I imagine in the next couple of hundred years there will only be a small minority following religions, with the majority of these being Muslim rather than Christian.
If there is a god (and this really is the hugest if ifs), why is it so cripplingly insecure that it needs the constant validation of humans praying to it?
Going to hell is surely a worthless threat if you aim it at somebody who doesn't believe.
@ValleyOfTears. Isn’t that what conservative Christians believe though? That all unbelievers will go to hell.
I have no idea what political groups of ppl may say with regard hell. Out of love noone would ever want anyone to go there. The methods of how someone conveys this can vary greatly I grant you.
As heartbreaking as it, if some still obstinately reject Salvation then they have made their choice. But cursing people and telling them they are going to hell, no that is not right.
When I said ‘conservative Christians’ I didn’t mean in the political sense but rather in the Bible believing sense. In this context isn’t it a fundamental part of many (not all) Christian’s belief that all ‘unbelievers’ will go to hell when they die? Is it as black & white as that? I apologise if I appear to be belabouring this point but I’m just just trying to get it clear in my head. Thanks.
Going to hell is surely a worthless threat if you aim it at somebody who doesn't believe.
@ValleyOfTears. Isn’t that what conservative Christians believe though? That all unbelievers will go to hell.
I have no idea what political groups of ppl may say with regard hell. Out of love noone would ever want anyone to go there. The methods of how someone conveys this can vary greatly I grant you.
As heartbreaking as it, if some still obstinately reject Salvation then they have made their choice. But cursing people and telling them they are going to hell, no that is not right.
When I said ‘conservative Christians’ I didn’t mean in the political sense but rather in the Bible believing sense. In this context isn’t it a fundamental part of many (not all) Christian’s belief that all ‘unbelievers’ will go to hell when they die? Is it as black & white as that? I apologise if I appear to be belabouring this point but I’m just just trying to get it clear in my head. Thanks.
Very clear as he has said
"If some still obstinately reject Salvation then they have made their choice."
Which is him saying the same thing but trying to appear less agressive and, nasty than previously, having recently come off a tempory ban from Admin.
He is trying to be charming but the underlying threat of eternal damnation is always there from these people as they struggle to comprehend that people might be moral for it's own sake, as the right, human, thing to do, rather than to avoid hell.
What is laughable is that if a person doesn't believe in heaven or hell, as something like 50% and rising of the UK population, then the threat is meaningless.
It's like telling an adult Father Christmas won't come if you're naughty.
Live the one life you have as well as you can. Be kind, do good because it's the right thing to do, not for reward or to avoid punishment in a non-existant afterlife.
I think it is really unhelpful when people use damnation (people going to hell) as a sort of " if you don't do what I'm doing and MY WAY then you are going to hell" attitude. Some do and obviously it does great harm.
That said, a good Christian will do all they can to encourage every person they encounter to choose Christ and live in The Spirit not for the world and the flesh. The fruits of The Spirit is Life eternal. The fruits of the flesh (unrepented) is death. (Hell) For eternity! Ultimately it is ourselves that choose our eternal destiny. I am certain God does not will for anyone to be lost.
The perennial question is ~ how do we (believers) encourage non believers to choose Salvation ( heaven) and not hell. Not easy.
If my friend was driving fast towards a cliff edge and oblivious to what lay ahead, you would count it an act of love if I grabbed the wheel and forced him to change course. (Even if I had to punch him in the face in the process to achieve this!) I could try saying nice things to him and not be too "preachy" to get him to change course but I doubt I would achieve the desired outcome! You get the picture.
Have you had any positive discussions with Christians on this subject? Forgive my manifold limitations in apologetics and Theology!
If there is a god (and this really is the hugest if ifs), why is it so cripplingly insecure that it needs the constant validation of humans praying to it?
Hi Stig, "it" (!) Is neither insecure OR needy. We are! He created us. And gave us free will to reject or accept Him. THIS is true love. To give each of us the freedom to accept or reject Him and His plan for our life. It is the very fact that He IS secure and needs nothing from us that we should take great courage in presenting our many insecurities, and our neediness, our sufferings, confusions and heartbreaks and difficulties before Him. And, in so doing, discover the Life He planned for us from the very beginning. I hope and pray that you will do this and share your testimony of what He does in your life in the months and years to come. #The Adventure Of A Lifetime bro 👍
With the amount of time humans have been on the planet, following of organised religion only represents a small time period. It's also going to fade out more and more as time goes on and I imagine in the next couple of hundred years there will only be a small minority following religions, with the majority of these being Muslim rather than Christian.
To look around today I would say your forecast is looking pretty good CM 👍
But "looks" can deceive. And " numbers" mean little when talking about genuine faith. To turn to Sacred Scripture we find time and time again, God cares little for the "appearance" of things and looks to the heart. Abraham needed to find "Just 10 good men". Gideons army. Joshua lead the few into the Promised Land and had to defeat tonnes of opponents.
Back to 2024 ... Those with a European heritage, have largely chosen NOT to bring life into the world from the 1960s onwards. This rapid decline (we are way below the "replacement rate" in many countries). See Pew Research and any demographic data for this) in populations and the falling away from religion ARE connected.
Islam appears to be the only religion in town because of the aforesaid decline but also because they largely hold to traditional family values. They are generally prolife (abortion, I think I am right in saying, is forbidden in Islam) and families of 4 children plus are commonplace.
Also, in Islam, they have the doctrine of Sunnah, which loosely means that adherents are meant to follow the life and behaviour and appearance of their prophet. Hence the dress code for many Muslims seems less 21st century and much more in keeping with a much earlier time period. I make this point of Sunnah because clearly Muslims are very identifiably "religious" in this age. Christians are not. So it "looks" like Christianity barely exists.
But this doesn't really point to MORE Muslims actually meeting the demands of their religion any more than Christians do.
Also there are other metrics worthy of note. The continent of Africa for example has enormous numbers of people both Christians, becoming Christians, converting from Islam to Christianity and huge numbers of vocations too.
Iran has the largest "underground" Christian Church in the world after China. The most persecuted religion in the world is Christianity. (Aid to The Church in Need)
And new shoots of recovery (to The Faith) are seen in Ireland, Holland, America etc And, surprisingly, there is a huge number of people turning to orthodox Christianity and Traditional Catholicism. And almost all are below the age of 25!! Who knew?!
In Russia, over 30,000 churches were built from 1990 to 2000!
So I would say your forecast may seem correct looking at, say, London in 2024 but looking at the broader picture I don't see a smaller minority and I also don't see Islam being the major religion either.
If God created the entire universe, why would he concern himself with us? We're tiny in the grand scale of things after all.
He's probably off watching some other planet millions of light years away with other life.
I believe He did, yes. Fruits of the "enlightenment" (endarkenment!) - that we see ourselves as nothing more than tiny and pointless in the grand scheme of things. WE are the centre of it all. Here.
Quick Q, why won't god stop babies getting cancer, but will help your sports team win?
How do you know He doesn't [stop cancer] ? I didn't have cancer as a baby. I thank God for stopping me getting it. What an awful thing for any child and their family to endure.
And how do you know He does ? [help sports teams win]
Sounds all a bit too Mystic Meg for my liking.
I suppose the better question might be why does god allow some children to get cancer, or starve or be abused or become ill with a myriad of horrible illnesses. If he has the power attributed to him I’d say the bloke wants a good smack on the nose.
SHG: it is understandable to arrive at your position. But it discounts a lot of things. Within God's permissive Will He does not simply intervene into every form of suffering because we expect Him to. Because, sometimes, that suffering may bring about a greater good. It may not seem like it at first but there is much we do not grasp in the natural let alone the supernatural (spiritual realm is a better term) That said I am not a Deist and I don't think He just creates us (like a wind up clock as CS LEWIS would put it) and leave us to it. The power of prayer testifies to this ever present God at work in the lives of those who turn to Him.
I agree the suffering and death of children is the hardest thing to deal with in faith. But when we consider our earthly life is but a fleeting foreshadow of the eternal life to come, so much of what we rage at God about down here endlessly is meaningless when we keep eternity ever in our hearts and minds.
Going to hell is surely a worthless threat if you aim it at somebody who doesn't believe.
@ValleyOfTears. Isn’t that what conservative Christians believe though? That all unbelievers will go to hell.
I have no idea what political groups of ppl may say with regard hell. Out of love noone would ever want anyone to go there. The methods of how someone conveys this can vary greatly I grant you.
As heartbreaking as it, if some still obstinately reject Salvation then they have made their choice. But cursing people and telling them they are going to hell, no that is not right.
When I said ‘conservative Christians’ I didn’t mean in the political sense but rather in the Bible believing sense. In this context isn’t it a fundamental part of many (not all) Christian’s belief that all ‘unbelievers’ will go to hell when they die? Is it as black & white as that? I apologise if I appear to be belabouring this point but I’m just just trying to get it clear in my head. Thanks.
Very clear as he has said
"If some still obstinately reject Salvation then they have made their choice."
Which is him saying the same thing but trying to appear less agressive and, nasty than previously, having recently come off a tempory ban from Admin.
He is trying to be charming but the underlying threat of eternal damnation is always there from these people as they struggle to comprehend that people might be moral for it's own sake, as the right, human, thing to do, rather than to avoid hell.
What is laughable is that if a person doesn't believe in heaven or hell, as something like 50% and rising of the UK population, then the threat is meaningless.
It's like telling an adult Father Christmas won't come if you're naughty.
Live the one life you have as well as you can. Be kind, do good because it's the right thing to do, not for reward or to avoid punishment in a non-existant afterlife.
Or if you want it in a Charlton context:
"Live, love, laugh and be happy"
You have free will HI. I am certainly not "trying to be charming". Charm deceives. I am not a deceiving person. Also, I, as a creature, not Creator, can damn anyone. I think you make a mistake if you think I can. This was in fact my point. We choose our destiny in this precious lifetime.
You call it a " non existent afterlife". You are free to believe this. But I believe it to be very existent.
Yes live this one life well. Be kind and do good. I agree with you on all these things. But I would also add ~ repent and believe The Gospel.
If there is a god (and this really is the hugest if ifs), why is it so cripplingly insecure that it needs the constant validation of humans praying to it?
Hi Stig, "it" (!) Is neither insecure OR needy. We are! He created us. And gave us free will to reject or accept Him. THIS is true love. To give each of us the freedom to accept or reject Him and His plan for our life. It is the very fact that He IS secure and needs nothing from us that we should take great courage in presenting our many insecurities, and our neediness, our sufferings, confusions and heartbreaks and difficulties before Him. And, in so doing, discover the Life He planned for us from the very beginning. I hope and pray that you will do this and share your testimony of what He does in your life in the months and years to come. #The Adventure Of A Lifetime bro 👍
Ahh the old "free will" argument. But of course its been shown that free will in the sense that Christians use it isn't actually free will but somewhere between coercion and extortion. Free will cannot exits in a two choice situation where the consequences of one choice is a punishment (eternal damnation). Its either you believe these things and live this way or you go to hell forever. That's the same as saying "I have a gun pointed at your head, you can choose to turn around and walk away but the gun will go off". That's not free will.
It will never not blow my mind that grown adults believe in any god or religion.
It feels mad, but if it helps people then it's really not my business. It becomes a problem when it comes to judging others, starting wars and using religion as a tool for the morally corrupt.
Quick Q, why won't god stop babies getting cancer, but will help your sports team win?
How do you know He doesn't [stop cancer] ? I didn't have cancer as a baby. I thank God for stopping me getting it. What an awful thing for any child and their family to endure.
And how do you know He does ? [help sports teams win]
Sounds all a bit too Mystic Meg for my liking.
I suppose the better question might be why does god allow some children to get cancer, or starve or be abused or become ill with a myriad of horrible illnesses. If he has the power attributed to him I’d say the bloke wants a good smack on the nose.
SHG: it is understandable to arrive at your position. But it discounts a lot of things. Within God's permissive Will He does not simply intervene into every form of suffering because we expect Him to. Because, sometimes, that suffering may bring about a greater good. It may not seem like it at first but there is much we do not grasp in the natural let alone the supernatural (spiritual realm is a better term) That said I am not a Deist and I don't think He just creates us (like a wind up clock as CS LEWIS would put it) and leave us to it. The power of prayer testifies to this ever present God at work in the lives of those who turn to Him.
I agree the suffering and death of children is the hardest thing to deal with in faith. But when we consider our earthly life is but a fleeting foreshadow of the eternal life to come, so much of what we rage at God about down here endlessly is meaningless when we keep eternity ever in our hearts and minds.
If he exists - he actively created parasites in Africa who's sole purpose is to crawl into the eyes of new born babies and eat them from the inside out. Sounds pretty evil to me.
Not sure what part of that suffering would be for the greater good.
If there is a god (and this really is the hugest if ifs), why is it so cripplingly insecure that it needs the constant validation of humans praying to it?
Hi Stig, "it" (!) Is neither insecure OR needy. We are! He created us. And gave us free will to reject or accept Him. THIS is true love. To give each of us the freedom to accept or reject Him and His plan for our life. It is the very fact that He IS secure and needs nothing from us that we should take great courage in presenting our many insecurities, and our neediness, our sufferings, confusions and heartbreaks and difficulties before Him. And, in so doing, discover the Life He planned for us from the very beginning. I hope and pray that you will do this and share your testimony of what He does in your life in the months and years to come. #The Adventure Of A Lifetime bro 👍
Wow, I must pay more attention to these things. When did free will and true love get redefined? Note to self: must buy a new dictionary.
"And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him" Leviticus 24:16
"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death” Revelation 21:8
"Anyone who acts presumptuously and does not obey the priest who officiates there in the ministry of the LORD, your God, or the judge, shall die. Thus shall you purge the evil from Israel". Deuteronomy 17:12
"...whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death..." 2 Chronicles 15:12-13
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword" Matthew 1:34 (I don't think he was referring to the Charlton badge).
"whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God" John 3:18
"...if they fight against you kill them, for that is the reward of such unbelievers." Al-Baqarah 2.191
"... if they [unbelievers] neither withdraw, nor offer you peace, nor restrain themselves from fighting you, seize and kill them wherever you encounter them: We give you clear authority against such people". Surat An-Nisa 4:91
"They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allāh. But if they turn away [i.e., refuse], then seize them and kill them [for their betrayal] wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper" Surat An-Nisa 4:98
"Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allāh and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment" Al-Ma'idah 5:33
Comments
I think St Paul gets a bit of a bashing these days (especially from Islamic scholars) but while the gospels is the message of salvation, St Paul writes how that "working out salvation with fear and trembling" takes place. How the Christian life is lived out.
Even including "the dreaded Paul"! I still can't see how a believer would arrive at the accusations being levelled at him on this thread.
And how do you know He does ? [help sports teams win]
Sounds all a bit too Mystic Meg for my liking.
https://churchleaders.com/news/468919-i-give-god-the-glory-patrick-mahomes-and-the-kansas-city-chiefs-thank-god-after-winning-the-super-bowl.html
He's probably off watching some other planet millions of light years away with other life.
"If some still obstinately reject Salvation then they have made their choice."
Which is him saying the same thing but trying to appear less agressive and, nasty than previously, having recently come off a tempory ban from Admin.
He is trying to be charming but the underlying threat of eternal damnation is always there from these people as they struggle to comprehend that people might be moral for it's own sake, as the right, human, thing to do, rather than to avoid hell.
What is laughable is that if a person doesn't believe in heaven or hell, as something like 50% and rising of the UK population, then the threat is meaningless.
It's like telling an adult Father Christmas won't come if you're naughty.
Live the one life you have as well as you can. Be kind, do good because it's the right thing to do, not for reward or to avoid punishment in a non-existant afterlife.
Or if you want it in a Charlton context:
"Live, love, laugh and be happy"
I think it is really unhelpful when people use damnation (people going to hell) as a sort of " if you don't do what I'm doing and MY WAY then you are going to hell" attitude. Some do and obviously it does great harm.
That said, a good Christian will do all they can to encourage every person they encounter to choose Christ and live in The Spirit not for the world and the flesh. The fruits of The Spirit is Life eternal. The fruits of the flesh (unrepented) is death. (Hell) For eternity! Ultimately it is ourselves that choose our eternal destiny. I am certain God does not will for anyone to be lost.
The perennial question is ~ how do we (believers) encourage non believers to choose Salvation ( heaven) and not hell. Not easy.
If my friend was driving fast towards a cliff edge and oblivious to what lay ahead, you would count it an act of love if I grabbed the wheel and forced him to change course. (Even if I had to punch him in the face in the process to achieve this!) I could try saying nice things to him and not be too "preachy" to get him to change course but I doubt I would achieve the desired outcome! You get the picture.
Have you had any positive discussions with Christians on this subject? Forgive my manifold limitations in apologetics and Theology!
But "looks" can deceive. And " numbers" mean little when talking about genuine faith. To turn to Sacred Scripture we find time and time again, God cares little for the "appearance" of things and looks to the heart. Abraham needed to find "Just 10 good men". Gideons army. Joshua lead the few into the Promised Land and had to defeat tonnes of opponents.
Back to 2024 ...
Those with a European heritage, have largely chosen NOT to bring life into the world from the 1960s onwards. This rapid decline (we are way below the "replacement rate" in many countries). See Pew Research and any demographic data for this) in populations and the falling away from religion ARE connected.
Islam appears to be the only religion in town because of the aforesaid decline but also because they largely hold to traditional family values. They are generally prolife (abortion, I think I am right in saying, is forbidden in Islam) and families of 4 children plus are commonplace.
Also, in Islam, they have the doctrine of Sunnah, which loosely means that adherents are meant to follow the life and behaviour and appearance of their prophet. Hence the dress code for many Muslims seems less 21st century and much more in keeping with a much earlier time period. I make this point of Sunnah because clearly Muslims are very identifiably "religious" in this age. Christians are not. So it "looks" like Christianity barely exists.
But this doesn't really point to MORE Muslims actually meeting the demands of their religion any more than Christians do.
Also there are other metrics worthy of note. The continent of Africa for example has enormous numbers of people both Christians, becoming Christians, converting from Islam to Christianity and huge numbers of vocations too.
Iran has the largest "underground" Christian Church in the world after China. The most persecuted religion in the world is Christianity. (Aid to The Church in Need)
And new shoots of recovery (to The Faith) are seen in Ireland, Holland, America etc
And, surprisingly, there is a huge number of people turning to orthodox Christianity and Traditional Catholicism. And almost all are below the age of 25!! Who knew?!
In Russia, over 30,000 churches were built from 1990 to 2000!
So I would say your forecast may seem correct looking at, say, London in 2024 but looking at the broader picture I don't see a smaller minority and I also don't see Islam being the major religion either.
There's plenty left to play for! 👍
Because we are His finest work.
That said I am not a Deist and I don't think He just creates us (like a wind up clock as CS LEWIS would put it) and leave us to it.
The power of prayer testifies to this ever present God at work in the lives of those who turn to Him.
I agree the suffering and death of children is the hardest thing to deal with in faith. But when we consider our earthly life is but a fleeting foreshadow of the eternal life to come, so much of what we rage at God about down here endlessly is meaningless when we keep eternity ever in our hearts and minds.
You call it a " non existent afterlife". You are free to believe this. But I believe it to be very existent.
Yes live this one life well. Be kind and do good. I agree with you on all these things. But I would also add ~ repent and believe The Gospel.
May we all meet merrily in heaven!
He looks like you woke him up from a peaceful slumber and made him pose.
Not sure what part of that suffering would be for the greater good.
Wow, I must pay more attention to these things. When did free will and true love get redefined? Note to self: must buy a new dictionary.
"And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him" Leviticus 24:16
"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death” Revelation 21:8
"Anyone who acts presumptuously and does not obey the priest who officiates there in the ministry of the LORD, your God, or the judge, shall die. Thus shall you purge the evil from Israel". Deuteronomy 17:12
"...whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death..." 2 Chronicles 15:12-13
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword" Matthew 1:34 (I don't think he was referring to the Charlton badge).
"whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God" John 3:18
"...if they fight against you kill them, for that is the reward of such unbelievers." Al-Baqarah 2.191
"... if they [unbelievers] neither withdraw, nor offer you peace, nor restrain themselves from fighting you, seize and kill them wherever you encounter them: We give you clear authority against such people". Surat An-Nisa 4:91
"They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allāh. But if they turn away [i.e., refuse], then seize them and kill them [for their betrayal] wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper" Surat An-Nisa 4:98
"Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allāh and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment" Al-Ma'idah 5:33