Going to hell is surely a worthless threat if you aim it at somebody who doesn't believe.
@ValleyOfTears. Isn’t that what conservative Christians believe though? That all unbelievers will go to hell.
I have no idea what political groups of ppl may say with regard hell. Out of love noone would ever want anyone to go there. The methods of how someone conveys this can vary greatly I grant you.
As heartbreaking as it, if some still obstinately reject Salvation then they have made their choice. But cursing people and telling them they are going to hell, no that is not right.
When I said ‘conservative Christians’ I didn’t mean in the political sense but rather in the Bible believing sense. In this context isn’t it a fundamental part of many (not all) Christian’s belief that all ‘unbelievers’ will go to hell when they die? Is it as black & white as that? I apologise if I appear to be belabouring this point but I’m just just trying to get it clear in my head. Thanks.
Very clear as he has said
"If some still obstinately reject Salvation then they have made their choice."
Which is him saying the same thing but trying to appear less agressive and, nasty than previously, having recently come off a tempory ban from Admin.
He is trying to be charming but the underlying threat of eternal damnation is always there from these people as they struggle to comprehend that people might be moral for it's own sake, as the right, human, thing to do, rather than to avoid hell.
What is laughable is that if a person doesn't believe in heaven or hell, as something like 50% and rising of the UK population, then the threat is meaningless.
It's like telling an adult Father Christmas won't come if you're naughty.
Live the one life you have as well as you can. Be kind, do good because it's the right thing to do, not for reward or to avoid punishment in a non-existant afterlife.
Or if you want it in a Charlton context:
"Live, love, laugh and be happy"
I know that Henry. I was just trying to draw him out. I think it is very clear where he stands.
@ValleyOfTears. Thanks for your response. I know you’re sincere in your beliefs but I don’t align with your view of ‘God’.
Another q for all of the religious on here, when you die and you're about to be judged, what if its allah who faces you. Allah asks why did you worship the other guy and not me, because now I need to send you to muslim hell. What would be your answer?
I’d tell him straight I’m a Charlton fan. I’ve suffered enough.
It will never not blow my mind that grown adults believe in any god or religion.
It feels mad, but if it helps people then it's really not my business. It becomes a problem when it comes to judging others, starting wars and using religion as a tool for the morally corrupt.
Anything becomes a problem when it encourages people to do these things Dazzler.
If there is a god (and this really is the hugest if ifs), why is it so cripplingly insecure that it needs the constant validation of humans praying to it?
Hi Stig, "it" (!) Is neither insecure OR needy. We are! He created us. And gave us free will to reject or accept Him. THIS is true love. To give each of us the freedom to accept or reject Him and His plan for our life. It is the very fact that He IS secure and needs nothing from us that we should take great courage in presenting our many insecurities, and our neediness, our sufferings, confusions and heartbreaks and difficulties before Him. And, in so doing, discover the Life He planned for us from the very beginning. I hope and pray that you will do this and share your testimony of what He does in your life in the months and years to come. #The Adventure Of A Lifetime bro 👍
Wow, I must pay more attention to these things. When did free will and true love get redefined? Note to self: must buy a new dictionary.
"And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him" Leviticus 24:16
"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death” Revelation 21:8
"Anyone who acts presumptuously and does not obey the priest who officiates there in the ministry of the LORD, your God, or the judge, shall die. Thus shall you purge the evil from Israel". Deuteronomy 17:12
"...whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death..." 2 Chronicles 15:12-13
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword" Matthew 1:34 (I don't think he was referring to the Charlton badge).
"whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God" John 3:18
"...if they fight against you kill them, for that is the reward of such unbelievers." Al-Baqarah 2.191
"... if they [unbelievers] neither withdraw, nor offer you peace, nor restrain themselves from fighting you, seize and kill them wherever you encounter them: We give you clear authority against such people". Surat An-Nisa 4:91
"They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allāh. But if they turn away [i.e., refuse], then seize them and kill them [for their betrayal] wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper" Surat An-Nisa 4:98
"Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allāh and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment" Al-Ma'idah 5:33
I do hope you will read the gospels in full. It is quite clear that the message is that the hope is that all will be saved. NOT condemned.
Salvation history doesn't contradict itself (as it can appear when one just plucks different verses from Sacred Scripture in the OT and the NT) The OT is living under The Law. We no longer have to (try to) keep the hundreds of different rules and regulations as outlined in the Mosaic Law in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. The NT is living under Grace. Our faith is in Jesus who has redeemed us and taken upon Himself the just condemnation that should be our eternal punishment. All we have to do is repent and believe and follow Him. I don't know about you but if I was in court standing before a judge who was about to give me 20 years in prison and a guy runs in and says "stop!" I'll take his punishment myself. I'd thank him everyday of my remaining life and take notice of what he is saying.
Quick Q, why won't god stop babies getting cancer, but will help your sports team win?
How do you know He doesn't [stop cancer] ? I didn't have cancer as a baby. I thank God for stopping me getting it. What an awful thing for any child and their family to endure.
And how do you know He does ? [help sports teams win]
Sounds all a bit too Mystic Meg for my liking.
I suppose the better question might be why does god allow some children to get cancer, or starve or be abused or become ill with a myriad of horrible illnesses. If he has the power attributed to him I’d say the bloke wants a good smack on the nose.
SHG: it is understandable to arrive at your position. But it discounts a lot of things. Within God's permissive Will He does not simply intervene into every form of suffering because we expect Him to. Because, sometimes, that suffering may bring about a greater good. It may not seem like it at first but there is much we do not grasp in the natural let alone the supernatural (spiritual realm is a better term) That said I am not a Deist and I don't think He just creates us (like a wind up clock as CS LEWIS would put it) and leave us to it. The power of prayer testifies to this ever present God at work in the lives of those who turn to Him.
I agree the suffering and death of children is the hardest thing to deal with in faith. But when we consider our earthly life is but a fleeting foreshadow of the eternal life to come, so much of what we rage at God about down here endlessly is meaningless when we keep eternity ever in our hearts and minds.
If he exists - he actively created parasites in Africa who's sole purpose is to crawl into the eyes of new born babies and eat them from the inside out. Sounds pretty evil to me.
Not sure what part of that suffering would be for the greater good.
As I have said CA, the suffering of children is the hardest thing to bear in my own faith journey. I've been to funerals of month old, 5 year old, etc. It is devastating. Confusing. Inexplicable. Traumatic. That said, just because I don't understand WHY something is happening or has happened to another person, it doesn't mean I don't believe in God or that I question He is a loving God. There are many "whys" we just don't understand. But certainly there are so many more (whys we just don't understand) if we do not have faith.
If God created the entire universe, why would he concern himself with us? We're tiny in the grand scale of things after all.
He's probably off watching some other planet millions of light years away with other life.
I believe He did, yes. Fruits of the "enlightenment" (endarkenment!) - that we see ourselves as nothing more than tiny and pointless in the grand scheme of things. WE are the centre of it all. Here.
Because we are His finest work.
So if some of his work is better than others, you're admitting that God is fallible?
He has given us the faculty to seek Him and know Him and be shaped by Him and so we can be with Him for eternity. The fact that we choose to do otherwise is about the free will He has given us. We can either allow The Potter to mould the clay or we can obstinately refuse to allow this and think we can do a better job ourselves. I think looking around at the state of the world today I would think it fairly clear that such pride leads to a disaster. God is certainly not fallible. But we are.
You still havnt addressed why an all powerful and loving god allows children to suffer.
If God created the entire universe, why would he concern himself with us? We're tiny in the grand scale of things after all.
He's probably off watching some other planet millions of light years away with other life.
I believe He did, yes. Fruits of the "enlightenment" (endarkenment!) - that we see ourselves as nothing more than tiny and pointless in the grand scheme of things. WE are the centre of it all. Here.
Because we are His finest work.
So if some of his work is better than others, you're admitting that God is fallible?
He has given us the faculty to seek Him and know Him and be shaped by Him and so we can be with Him for eternity. The fact that we choose to do otherwise is about the free will He has given us. We can either allow The Potter to mould the clay or we can obstinately refuse to allow this and think we can do a better job ourselves. I think looking around at the state of the world today I would think it fairly clear that such pride leads to a disaster. God is certainly not fallible. But we are.
You still havnt addressed why an all powerful and loving god allows children to suffer.
Thanks SHG.
On an emotional level ~ only the revelation of Jesus Christ can get us through such dark times as the one you mentioned. Which is a good example by the way and one I think most, if not all people, find the most difficult to understand. Children suffering.
Knowing about the Afterlife that He reveals to us ~ being Heaven and also His revelation of what our prayer can do. We KNOW our prayers can affect our own soul but our prayers can also affect the souls of others too. Even if they don't bring about an effect we desire ( healing a child from cancer for example)
When I prayed for my sick niece, I was preparing her sanctity before God as well as pleading for her to survive, heal and flourish and be given a long life. I was also praying for myself too. That God would give me the Grace to accept and endure whatever was to come from this terrible time.
On an intellectual level ~ we may not know WHY this particular suffering is taking place as we yell ~ " WHY DIDNT GOD STOP IT??" We may not know for this specific case but it doesn't mean there is no good reason for why God would allow suffering in this particular case. On an intellectual level it is not a problem because there is no way we can prove that God DOESNT have a good reason. This doesn't solve the mystery of suffering entirely or dispel the emotional darkness such suffering may bring about but at least we KNOW God exists and is very much involved in all that we do.
God being Omnipotent and God being All-knowing ~ there is no good that God cannot bring about from suffering. And just because we can't SEE or KNOW that greater good, being our finite minds and our limitations due to time and space, it doesn't follow that there IS no good.
So from our (yours and mine SHG) perspective it seems such suffering would be pointless and we would say gratuitous, pointless, and unwarranted for no good reason. But from God's perspective ~ He KNOWS the reason but He has allowed or permitted this suffering.
He is infinite in power so there is no good He can't bring from it based upon the revelation of Jesus Christ. We KNOW that our prayers are never in vain. That's a promise that we hold onto based on WHAT and WHO Jesus Christ is, namely:
1. God made flesh. 2. Resurrected from the dead 3. Eternally sitting at the right hand of The Father
So it is a combination of both what Jesus gives us and what we can know by the natural light of human reason.
I hope something in this helps.
As with all these very difficult situations that make up human life, reading The Word and finding out WHO God is in the first instance is what I would encourage. So many questions are resolved almost immediately when one does this. Best regards.
I’ve read a few post match reviews and player assessments on here which I thought were bollocks but that, that, is the biggest load of nothing ive ever read, Like an essay in tomfoolery.
If God created the entire universe, why would he concern himself with us? We're tiny in the grand scale of things after all.
He's probably off watching some other planet millions of light years away with other life.
I believe He did, yes. Fruits of the "enlightenment" (endarkenment!) - that we see ourselves as nothing more than tiny and pointless in the grand scheme of things. WE are the centre of it all. Here.
Because we are His finest work.
So if some of his work is better than others, you're admitting that God is fallible?
He has given us the faculty to seek Him and know Him and be shaped by Him and so we can be with Him for eternity. The fact that we choose to do otherwise is about the free will He has given us. We can either allow The Potter to mould the clay or we can obstinately refuse to allow this and think we can do a better job ourselves. I think looking around at the state of the world today I would think it fairly clear that such pride leads to a disaster. God is certainly not fallible. But we are.
You still havnt addressed why an all powerful and loving god allows children to suffer.
On an intellectual level ~ we may not know WHY this particular suffering is taking place as we yell ~ " WHY DIDNT GOD STOP IT??" We may not know for this specific case but it doesn't mean there is no good reason for why God would allow suffering in this particular case. On an intellectual level it is not a problem because there is no way we can prove that God DOESNT have a good reason. This doesn't solve the mystery of suffering entirely or dispel the emotional darkness such suffering may bring about but at least we KNOW God exists and is very much involved in all that we do.
The Christian faith is a very very ( excuse the pun ) broad church . It’s made up of a myriad of traditions. Some are pretty old , the Coptics in Egypt , or the orthodox tradition. Others are pretty new comparatively- Pentecostals , faith movement etc
There is as much disagreement within the faith as there is between people of faith and atheists. @ValleyOfTears articulates a particular perspective and I might suggest gently a fairly narrow one
I came to faith in the Pentecostal tradition . It was transformative. I left a chaotic drug and crime filled life behind and went on to have a successful career family etc. By any measure it was life changing and I shall never regret my decision
That said I found the dogma of the tradition troubling. It struggled with any notion of doubt , was in those days strangely disassociated with the community it inhabited . It refused to acknowledge the complexity of it all , ethical dilemmas , and responded very poorly to challenge
35 years on im in a very different space. I am nominally part of a very inclusive non judgemental Christian community. I don’t attend church regularly, I read more from the contemplative traditions and I’m entirely comfortable with the mess , the mystery and the contradiction of it all
if I’m honest I find the certainty of our @ValleyOfTears troubling. Particularly the dogmatic theological moral certainties. From the earliest moments of the faith , people disagreed and theology has not been fixed
Notwithstanding all of the above ; I think on balance Christians have made and continue to make a great contribution to the fabric of public and community life.
Three practical contributions- Street pastors , Food Banks , Cold weather night shelters .
And ….. if @ValleyOfTears is a little dogmatic , there are quite a few on here representing the non believing section who are as dogmatic , with less good humour , and weak argument 😊
So if I caused harm to valley of tears family and said God spoke to me, he would be fine with that, pour me a cup of tea, and refuse to call the police as there can be no higher judgement than gods own word ?
I love how they can cherry pick which bits they say apply to the bible and which bits are ‘don’t worry about that, it’s contradicted elsewhere so we will go with the nicer option’
So if I caused harm to valley of tears family and said God spoke to me, he would be fine with that, pour me a cup of tea, and refuse to call the police as there can be no higher judgement than gods own word ?
I love how they can cherry pick which bits they say apply to the bible and which bits are ‘don’t worry about that, it’s contradicted elsewhere so we will go with the nicer option’
MOL: I am in no way suggesting the bible in some way replaces or overrides civil law. What gave you that impression ???We are called to respect and indeed pray for our civil leaders and live peaceful law abiding lives. Its not bible OR police. If a crime has been committed we phone the police. There may very well be occasions where, as a matter of conscience, one cannot support a certain civil law but there is no verse I have found in sacred scripture that instructs me to live a life of rebellion and ignore civil authorities. He is the God of order.
The Christian faith is a very very ( excuse the pun ) broad church . It’s made up of a myriad of traditions. Some are pretty old , the Coptics in Egypt , or the orthodox tradition. Others are pretty new comparatively- Pentecostals , faith movement etc
There is as much disagreement within the faith as there is between people of faith and atheists. @ValleyOfTears articulates a particular perspective and I might suggest gently a fairly narrow one
I came to faith in the Pentecostal tradition . It was transformative. I left a chaotic drug and crime filled life behind and went on to have a successful career family etc. By any measure it was life changing and I shall never regret my decision
That said I found the dogma of the tradition troubling. It struggled with any notion of doubt , was in those days strangely disassociated with the community it inhabited . It refused to acknowledge the complexity of it all , ethical dilemmas , and responded very poorly to challenge
35 years on im in a very different space. I am nominally part of a very inclusive non judgemental Christian community. I don’t attend church regularly, I read more from the contemplative traditions and I’m entirely comfortable with the mess , the mystery and the contradiction of it all
if I’m honest I find the certainty of our @ValleyOfTears troubling. Particularly the dogmatic theological moral certainties. From the earliest moments of the faith , people disagreed and theology has not been fixed
Notwithstanding all of the above ; I think on balance Christians have made and continue to make a great contribution to the fabric of public and community life.
Three practical contributions- Street pastors , Food Banks , Cold weather night shelters .
And ….. if @ValleyOfTears is a little dogmatic , there are quite a few on here representing the non believing section who are as dogmatic , with less good humour , and weak argument 😊
Thanks for sharing this Holyjo. Good to read your journey. Have you read Richard Rohr I wondered?
The Christian faith is a very very ( excuse the pun ) broad church . It’s made up of a myriad of traditions. Some are pretty old , the Coptics in Egypt , or the orthodox tradition. Others are pretty new comparatively- Pentecostals , faith movement etc
There is as much disagreement within the faith as there is between people of faith and atheists. @ValleyOfTears articulates a particular perspective and I might suggest gently a fairly narrow one
I came to faith in the Pentecostal tradition . It was transformative. I left a chaotic drug and crime filled life behind and went on to have a successful career family etc. By any measure it was life changing and I shall never regret my decision
That said I found the dogma of the tradition troubling. It struggled with any notion of doubt , was in those days strangely disassociated with the community it inhabited . It refused to acknowledge the complexity of it all , ethical dilemmas , and responded very poorly to challenge
35 years on im in a very different space. I am nominally part of a very inclusive non judgemental Christian community. I don’t attend church regularly, I read more from the contemplative traditions and I’m entirely comfortable with the mess , the mystery and the contradiction of it all
if I’m honest I find the certainty of our @ValleyOfTears troubling. Particularly the dogmatic theological moral certainties. From the earliest moments of the faith , people disagreed and theology has not been fixed
Notwithstanding all of the above ; I think on balance Christians have made and continue to make a great contribution to the fabric of public and community life.
Three practical contributions- Street pastors , Food Banks , Cold weather night shelters .
And ….. if @ValleyOfTears is a little dogmatic , there are quite a few on here representing the non believing section who are as dogmatic , with less good humour , and weak argument 😊
If a person constructs an inner belief in some kind of god, and it does no harm to others but brings them some kind of personal equilibrium why criticise that?
As far as I’m concerned there can be no legitimate reason to inflict or allow a child to suffer. If as an omnipotent god, he has the power and ability to stop children suffering yet fails to do so then there is no reason for that other than spite or indifference. It informs me that that there is no higher being that can stop the ills of the world or if I’m wrong then it deserves our anger and contempt rather than worship.
Did mankind walk with dinosaurs - that's pretty much proven to be bollocks and I have complete trust that the fossil record proves it. The earth is most definitely not 50,000 years old.
Science has given light to previously unknown processes. Unknown processes without science lead to fanciful stories to fill the gaps in knowledge - that's pretty much the Old Testament (other books are available on request). Life was shit and still is for vast swathes of humanity - clinging on to the promise of eternal afterlife softened that blow somewhat and the so-called revealed religions were designed to quell unrest - "be good now and your reward will be in heaven".
Do I rule out completely the concept of a creator? No, I can't do that. I trust the science in terms of the 'singularity' but something or someone instigating that cannot be ruled out. There is order and natural laws apply to the universe - indicating the possibility of design. But I do not believe at all that if there was a creator, that being has revealed themselves to mankind.
I am still yet to be convinced that VOT isnt one of my parents making a desperate attempt to infiltrate another part of my life to keep bringing up childhood trauma in a desperate attempt to convert me!
Imagine living in a universe that was "intelligently designed" as badly as the one we live in. What god, with the capability of creating life, the universe and everything would be so disgusting as to create, in addition, childhood cancer? Why would it create the acanthamoeba which causes infection leading to blindness? Why would it have taken the time to create smallpox, polio, the bubonic plague and CJD? If it liked us, why would it torture so many children to death with illness and disease? If such a god existed, it would clearly be a cruel, sadistic monster.
The world is a wondrous and beautiful place. And it's filled with misery and pain that is not our fault. That's nothing short of evil. Was it really created by - as Stephen Fry put it - a capricious, mean-minded, stupid god? Of course not.
If the universe was created by a god, then it was maniacal and selfish one. If a god were capable of creating a universe, it could easily create one where innocent children were not subjected to the pain, misery and torture inflicted on them by it.
I have no problem with 'believers'. Our birth, life and death on this planet is a supremely puzzling event. Some people can live with the uncertainty and unknowing involved in our situation, others can't. Many of the latter choose to 'believe' whatever it is that will get them through. But that's fine. They can have whatever 'faith' they want - faith being a belief based on personal conviction rather than proof. My problem is when what they 'believe' turns to what they 'know'. They claim to 'know' what is unknowable - that God exists, that there is an afterlife etc. For example what, among many other things, Valley of Tears confidently asserts -
"He is infinite in power so there is no good He can't bring from it based upon the revelation of Jesus Christ. We KNOW that our prayers are never in vain. That's a promise that we hold onto based on WHAT and WHO Jesus Christ is, namely:
1. God made flesh. 2. Resurrected from the dead 3. Eternally sitting at the right hand of The Father"
He doesn't claim to believe those things, he "knows" them, failing to realise that he has just absorbed a cultural based tradition and that he is merely parroting a doctrine that he has been taught, just he would parrot other things entirely if he had been born into another culture.
What is interesting is that such 'knowers' always reveal their deep down insecurity about the things they 'know' by feeling that it is their duty to indoctrinate other people. All they are really doing is showing their need for the security of having other people think exactly the same way as they do. Security in numbers. They cannot bear the condition of what Tennyson called being " an infant crying in the night, an infant crying for the light, and with no language but a cry".
I have no problem with 'believers'. Our birth, life and death on this planet is a supremely puzzling event. Some people can live with the uncertainty and unknowing involved in our situation, others can't. Many of the latter choose to 'believe' whatever it is that will get them through. But that's fine. They can have whatever 'faith' they want - faith being a belief based on personal conviction rather than proof. My problem is when what they 'believe' turns to what they 'know'. They claim to 'know' what is unknowable - that God exists, that there is an afterlife etc. For example what, among many other things, Valley of Tears confidently asserts -
"He is infinite in power so there is no good He can't bring from it based upon the revelation of Jesus Christ. We KNOW that our prayers are never in vain. That's a promise that we hold onto based on WHAT and WHO Jesus Christ is, namely:
1. God made flesh. 2. Resurrected from the dead 3. Eternally sitting at the right hand of The Father"
He doesn't claim to believe those things, he "knows" them, failing to realise that he has just absorbed a cultural based tradition and that he is merely parroting a doctrine that he has been taught, just he would parrot other things entirely if he had been born into another culture.
What is interesting is that such 'knowers' always reveal their deep down insecurity about the things they 'know' by feeling that it is their duty to indoctrinate other people. All they are really doing is showing their need for the security of having other people think exactly the same way as they do. Security in numbers. They cannot bear the condition of what Tennyson called being " an infant crying in the night, an infant crying for the light, and with no language but a cry".
Thank you Nadou. If you follow the thread ~ I was just answering a question set by SHG twice. I was certainly not taught Christianity. I discovered faith in adulthood. I certainly gain no security by other people "thinking exactly the same way" as I do. Not at all. We all have free will and I wouldn't disregard someone or disrespect someone for not sharing my faith. Not at all.
Thank you for the Tennyson quote. I'd never heard that one before.
Comments
I do hope you will read the gospels in full. It is quite clear that the message is that the hope is that all will be saved. NOT condemned.
Salvation history doesn't contradict itself (as it can appear when one just plucks different verses from Sacred Scripture in the OT and the NT) The OT is living under The Law. We no longer have to (try to) keep the hundreds of different rules and regulations as outlined in the Mosaic Law in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. The NT is living under Grace. Our faith is in Jesus who has redeemed us and taken upon Himself the just condemnation that should be our eternal punishment. All we have to do is repent and believe and follow Him. I don't know about you but if I was in court standing before a judge who was about to give me 20 years in prison and a guy runs in and says "stop!" I'll take his punishment myself. I'd thank him everyday of my remaining life and take notice of what he is saying.
On an emotional level ~ only the revelation of Jesus Christ can get us through such dark times as the one you mentioned. Which is a good example by the way and one I think most, if not all people, find the most difficult to understand. Children suffering.
Knowing about the Afterlife that He reveals to us ~ being Heaven and also His revelation of what our prayer can do. We KNOW our prayers can affect our own soul but our prayers can also affect the souls of others too. Even if they don't bring about an effect we desire ( healing a child from cancer for example)
When I prayed for my sick niece, I was preparing her sanctity before God as well as pleading for her to survive, heal and flourish and be given a long life. I was also praying for myself too. That God would give me the Grace to accept and endure whatever was to come from this terrible time.
On an intellectual level ~ we may not know WHY this particular suffering is taking place as we yell ~ " WHY DIDNT GOD STOP IT??"
We may not know for this specific case but it doesn't mean there is no good reason for why God would allow suffering in this particular case. On an intellectual level it is not a problem because there is no way we can prove that God DOESNT have a good reason. This doesn't solve the mystery of suffering entirely or dispel the emotional darkness such suffering may bring about but at least we KNOW God exists and is very much involved in all that we do.
God being Omnipotent and God being All-knowing ~ there is no good that God cannot bring about from suffering. And just because we can't SEE or KNOW that greater good, being our finite minds and our limitations due to time and space, it doesn't follow that there IS no good.
So from our (yours and mine SHG) perspective it seems such suffering would be pointless and we would say gratuitous, pointless, and unwarranted for no good reason. But from God's perspective ~ He KNOWS the reason but He has allowed or permitted this suffering.
He is infinite in power so there is no good He can't bring from it based upon the revelation of Jesus Christ. We KNOW that our prayers are never in vain. That's a promise that we hold onto based on WHAT and WHO Jesus Christ is, namely:
1. God made flesh.
2. Resurrected from the dead
3. Eternally sitting at the right hand of The Father
So it is a combination of both what Jesus gives us and what we can know by the natural light of human reason.
I hope something in this helps.
As with all these very difficult situations that make up human life, reading The Word and finding out WHO God is in the first instance is what I would encourage. So many questions are resolved almost immediately when one does this. Best regards.
Tell this to Elizabeth Fritzl.
There is as much disagreement within the faith as there is between people of faith and atheists. @ValleyOfTears articulates a particular perspective and I might suggest gently a fairly narrow one
I came to faith in the Pentecostal tradition . It was transformative. I left a chaotic drug and crime filled life behind and went on to have a successful career family etc. By any measure it was life changing and I shall never regret my decision
That said I found the dogma of the tradition troubling. It struggled with any notion of doubt , was in those days strangely disassociated with the community it inhabited . It refused to acknowledge the complexity of it all , ethical dilemmas , and responded very poorly to challenge
35 years on im in a very different space. I am nominally part of a very inclusive non judgemental Christian community. I don’t attend church regularly, I read more from the contemplative traditions and I’m entirely comfortable with the mess , the mystery and the contradiction of it all
if I’m honest I find the certainty of our @ValleyOfTears troubling. Particularly the dogmatic theological moral certainties. From the earliest moments of the faith , people disagreed and theology has not been fixed
Notwithstanding all of the above ; I think on balance Christians have made and continue to make a great contribution to the fabric of public and community life.
Imagine living in a universe that was "intelligently designed" as badly as the one we live in. What god, with the capability of creating life, the universe and everything would be so disgusting as to create, in addition, childhood cancer? Why would it create the acanthamoeba which causes infection leading to blindness? Why would it have taken the time to create smallpox, polio, the bubonic plague and CJD? If it liked us, why would it torture so many children to death with illness and disease? If such a god existed, it would clearly be a cruel, sadistic monster.
The world is a wondrous and beautiful place. And it's filled with misery and pain that is not our fault. That's nothing short of evil. Was it really created by - as Stephen Fry put it - a capricious, mean-minded, stupid god? Of course not.
If the universe was created by a god, then it was maniacal and selfish one. If a god were capable of creating a universe, it could easily create one where innocent children were not subjected to the pain, misery and torture inflicted on them by it.
"He is infinite in power so there is no good He can't bring from it based upon the revelation of Jesus Christ. We KNOW that our prayers are never in vain. That's a promise that we hold onto based on WHAT and WHO Jesus Christ is, namely:
1. God made flesh.
2. Resurrected from the dead
3. Eternally sitting at the right hand of The Father"
He doesn't claim to believe those things, he "knows" them, failing to realise that he has just absorbed a cultural based tradition and that he is merely parroting a doctrine that he has been taught, just he would parrot other things entirely if he had been born into another culture.
What is interesting is that such 'knowers' always reveal their deep down insecurity about the things they 'know' by feeling that it is their duty to indoctrinate other people. All they are really doing is showing their need for the security of having other people think exactly the same way as they do. Security in numbers. They cannot bear the condition of what Tennyson called being " an infant crying in the night, an infant crying for the light, and with no language but a cry".