When top scorer Alfie May was sold, a lot of us were shocked and thought it was a ridiculous decision. It later came out that NJ decided Alfie May did not suit the way he wanted to play, and we ended up with Godden and two tall centre forwards and no wingers. He felt his setup would provide goals from the rest of the team, which would spread the responsibility more than relying on just one striker to get the goals. Most of us reluctantly accepted this decision and awaited the outcome.
Well, IMO, this tactic has failed miserably, as we continue to offer no consistent threat to opposition defences match after match. The football has been generally poor and the players don't seem to be enjoying it and even know what their roles are sometimes.
The forwards have virtually been starved of service all season and his ongoing "style" of play shows no signs that this is about to change.
I grant him he has sorted out the defence (which was the priority from last season), but there has been no improvement elsewhere on the pitch.
I had high hopes NJ was going to be the manager to take us forward, but he has only shown skill for the defensive part of the game so far and the rest is just a shambles.
I accept that injuries have played their part, but he has not shown (to me) that he knows who his best eleven is yet, as there have been a lot of changes to the line-ups all season.
The loyal fans have shown good support but with no entertainment on show, how long will it last?
The stats do say the defence has improved 7 league clean sheets from 18 and joint 6th best defensive record but why do I still feel nervous when we face an attack? Jones makes a tremendous difference back there but for some reason I still don't feel 100% confident. I wouldn't say we have a defence fit for promotion. Interested in hearing others opinions?
Stats are fine agim, but they sometimes do not give the full picture and this is certainly the case with the way Jones sets up his team. I almost get the impression that if we won three two, then Jones would be furious about the fact we conceded two, totally ignoring the three points gained. His assertion that 'we need to win more games' does not hold up when he sets a team up to defend and not attack.
People are still very fixated on a lack of wingers but that's not the real problem. The problem is we're playing with wingbacks and have absolutely no idea how to bring them into the game effectively. To be clear I don't like 5 defender formations. I like teams that make the pitch as wide as possible and play as many advanced players as they can fit in, but I accept that wingback formations can and often are very effective at EFL level. Derby got promoted last season regularly playing 3 at the back, the season before all three promoted teams Ipswich, Sheff Wed and Plymouth (feat Gillesphey!) played with 3 at the back and Stockport, Wrexham and Crawley all got promoted from L2 last season primarily playing that way. It's fairly in vogue and it's proved very effective, the problem is we're not able to get the system to work.
Jones' natural hatred of wingers is rooted in his desire for aggression and pressing to happen through violence and he doesn't see that coming from wingers, he wants the strikers to press the keeper's passing options, two midfielders to target the central areas and the wingbacks to then press the wide ball and get onto it for a quick break. That works sometimes against teams who insist on playing out but all our strategies are reactive and that doesn't work when you're expected to have the ball and win games with control. When Small plays he posts high early rather than running past as one of our midfielders receives the ball, Ramsay for all his excellent defensive skills couldn't link up effectively in triangles with his midfield and as a result instead of us stretching play and causing headaches for defenders with late overlapping runs and splitting centre backs for central through balls we just lump it up, try and win it and then at best hope to lay it back for Edwards or Coventry to try and wing a deep cross in. No pace on the cross, a bad angle and a tough ask for our strikers. We switched to the box and the diamond but it just creates the same problems; there's no width in attack which means there's no space created by movement and things are always static. I don't know why it is but we seem completely unable to coach our wingbacks to play as creative entities or move in a way that creates space for others. It's possibly because there's lingering trauma from how defensively open we were last season but we create a really tough ask on our defence to constantly keep a clean sheet and on our strikers to magic a goal off a single chance every game. It's just not practical to be telling these players that they have to be perfect at both ends of the pitch.
The Birmingham game is a good example of that, we did the dirty work incredibly well in limiting their supply but still we needed the back four to make no mistakes at all and Godden to take one of the few half chances we offered up. You might live that way as a newly promoted Premier League team and try to scrape 40 points but it's not sustainable for a team expected to get promotion and win most weeks. Jones is still talking about physicality and power but the real issue is in off the ball movement and triggers for passages of play that aren't just pressing. I think we'd see a huge improvement in our passing and the freedom in our midfielders even without bringing in a creative superstar just from the team creating gaps for each other and passing options that aren't backwards or big diagonals downfield. Surely someone on the coaching staff can see that?
When top scorer Alfie May was sold, a lot of us were shocked and thought it was a ridiculous decision. It later came out that NJ decided Alfie May did not suit the way he wanted to play, and we ended up with Godden and two tall centre forwards and no wingers. He felt his setup would provide goals from the rest of the team, which would spread the responsibility more than relying on just one striker to get the goals. Most of us reluctantly accepted this decision and awaited the outcome.
Well, IMO, this tactic has failed miserably, as we continue to offer no consistent threat to opposition defences match after match. The football has been generally poor and the players don't seem to be enjoying it and even know what their roles are sometimes.
The forwards have virtually been starved of service all season and his ongoing "style" of play shows no signs that this is about to change.
I grant him he has sorted out the defence (which was the priority from last season), but there has been no improvement elsewhere on the pitch.
I had high hopes NJ was going to be the manager to take us forward, but he has only shown skill for the defensive part of the game so far and the rest is just a shambles.
I accept that injuries have played their part, but he has not shown (to me) that he knows who his best eleven is yet, as there have been a lot of changes to the line-ups all season.
The loyal fans have shown good support but with no entertainment on show, how long will it last?
The stats do say the defence has improved 7 league clean sheets from 18 and joint 6th best defensive record but why do I still feel nervous when we face an attack? Jones makes a tremendous difference back there but for some reason I still don't feel 100% confident. I wouldn't say we have a defence fit for promotion. Interested in hearing others opinions?
If you look at the games when Jones has played, we've generally looked pretty solid, and there's a good partnership between him and Mitchell. Both are good in the air, and at marking forwards. The recent Lincoln game was a complete bore draw, where neither side looked like scoring
If our first choice team has a defensive weakness, it's shots from the edge of the box.
It will if we keep thinking the reflex jerk action of sacking the manager is a good idea. It has repeatedly proven a bad idea. When we sacked Appleton I disagreed with it and I disagree with it now. The problem can’t be the manager. It partially comes down to moden days’ players’ attitudes. They think that they can play like shit because the manager will be gone soon anyway. Sometimes they play like shit to intentionally get him sacked relying on this ’lost the dressing room’ bollocks. It’s the players you should be angry with not the manager. I’d like them to realise that the manager is staying put and they have to get in with it, do their best whether they like him or not, or else it is THEY who will be on the scrapheap, stupid useless bunch of pussies. Remember that: 99.9% wanted Appleton sacked and that Jones proved he could get decent results at the start of his contract. You were behind him then so stick by him. If the football is that shit then just don’t go. He probably pissed off the players somewhere after the Reading game but come on!...get over it!......man up you pussies (the players).
Seriously ? You disagreed with sacking appleton ? "the reflex jerk action" very likely saved us from being relegated.
"The problem can’t be the manager" Really ? Have you seen the style of football that we are playing ? NJ sold the Third Divisions leading scorer to bring in an absolute shit show of players to play kick & rush similar to what I played in the school playground in the 60s & to be honest I think we put in more effort back then so could have possibly got a result against this current bunch. "the reflex jerk action" ? Get him out together with his pile of shit ex Luton players.
There's 0 doubts regarding Appleton. Had we stuck we would be a League2 team imo. We were dead and buried under him, no fight.
You’re probably right but in the long term he could have built something and got us back up.
As it is, on a cycle of manager sacking, I’m convinced that soon we’ll be in League Two anyway but still on a downward spiral.
I totally agree that selling May was an awful decision but I believe in giving the manager time to get his system right and that includes even if we get relegated in the meantime.
I don’t care if I get 25 lols for my opinion. As a club we’ve been getting millions of unheard lols ever since we sacked Dowie and put Les Reid in charge.
Do those that lol my opinion ever look at other clubs. Sacking Ryan Lowe at Preston, sacking Robins at Coventry - are these the right decisions? Keeping Chris Wilder at Sheffield United- is that a bad decision? Is sacking Ten Hag a good decision?
I’m old enough to see that, generally, giving a manager several seasons works in the long term, and sacking a manager every year or two, let alone two or three managers a year, leads to disaster.
When Leaburn first came back into the side he was challenging and winning headers, which used to be one of his biggest weaknesses prior to injury. He seems to have reverted back to half heartedly jumping with no desire to actually win the header and I don't think he won a single header last night.
Even Godden was winning a fair few last night but as always with us, was flicking them on to nobody.
Every time we get the ball anywhere on the pitch we never have any options open to pass forward to, which inevitably results in passing it to the CB and lumping it. There's never anyone overlapping on the wing, so when we do get the ball there we don't progress it and never really whip any crosses in. We can't attack down the middle, we can't attack down the wing, it's no wonder we've mustered up 18 goals all season.
I get that Jones' system is to press and win the ball high up and go from there but in the first half Orient gifted us the ball a few times in promising positions, just for us to kill the attack dead quicker than it began so even that doesn't seem an option
Leaburn won 10 aerial duels out of 21 and Godden won 7 of 9 according to sofascore. That is an abysmal % by Leaburn
Maybe, what % is considered good?
I'd be expecting someone who's 6ft6 to be winning at least 3/4s of his battles. I don't want to plough into Leaburn he's had a tough 18 months but I do struggle to see his USP. I've made it clear I don't think he will ever be a Prem player but he's got to settle into a style of play for him to push on
What’s that based on though? Do strikers of a similar size at this level win 3/4s of aerial battles?
When Leaburn first came back into the side he was challenging and winning headers, which used to be one of his biggest weaknesses prior to injury. He seems to have reverted back to half heartedly jumping with no desire to actually win the header and I don't think he won a single header last night.
Even Godden was winning a fair few last night but as always with us, was flicking them on to nobody.
Every time we get the ball anywhere on the pitch we never have any options open to pass forward to, which inevitably results in passing it to the CB and lumping it. There's never anyone overlapping on the wing, so when we do get the ball there we don't progress it and never really whip any crosses in. We can't attack down the middle, we can't attack down the wing, it's no wonder we've mustered up 18 goals all season.
I get that Jones' system is to press and win the ball high up and go from there but in the first half Orient gifted us the ball a few times in promising positions, just for us to kill the attack dead quicker than it began so even that doesn't seem an option
Leaburn won 10 aerial duels out of 21 and Godden won 7 of 9 according to sofascore. That is an abysmal % by Leaburn
Maybe, what % is considered good?
I'd be expecting someone who's 6ft6 to be winning at least 3/4s of his battles. I don't want to plough into Leaburn he's had a tough 18 months but I do struggle to see his USP. I've made it clear I don't think he will ever be a Prem player but he's got to settle into a style of play for him to push on
What’s that based on though? Do strikers of a similar size at this level win 3/4s of aerial battles?
I think I was probably over dramatic when I said “abysmal”. His general aerial duel % won this season is 60% which puts him in the top 3% of strikers in the league according to FotMob
We definitely improved when Jones replaced Appleton, but how much was just the usual new managerial bounce? Plus the team was significantly strengthened in January, so performances would probably have improved anyway, albeit slower than it happened.
If Jones was sacked and Appleton appointed now, I suspect in the short term results would improve...
When Leaburn first came back into the side he was challenging and winning headers, which used to be one of his biggest weaknesses prior to injury. He seems to have reverted back to half heartedly jumping with no desire to actually win the header and I don't think he won a single header last night.
Even Godden was winning a fair few last night but as always with us, was flicking them on to nobody.
Every time we get the ball anywhere on the pitch we never have any options open to pass forward to, which inevitably results in passing it to the CB and lumping it. There's never anyone overlapping on the wing, so when we do get the ball there we don't progress it and never really whip any crosses in. We can't attack down the middle, we can't attack down the wing, it's no wonder we've mustered up 18 goals all season.
I get that Jones' system is to press and win the ball high up and go from there but in the first half Orient gifted us the ball a few times in promising positions, just for us to kill the attack dead quicker than it began so even that doesn't seem an option
Leaburn won 10 aerial duels out of 21 and Godden won 7 of 9 according to sofascore. That is an abysmal % by Leaburn
Maybe, what % is considered good?
I'd be expecting someone who's 6ft6 to be winning at least 3/4s of his battles. I don't want to plough into Leaburn he's had a tough 18 months but I do struggle to see his USP. I've made it clear I don't think he will ever be a Prem player but he's got to settle into a style of play for him to push on
What’s that based on though? Do strikers of a similar size at this level win 3/4s of aerial battles?
That's based on him being a big bastard which in my book means he should win the majority of his headers.
We definitely improved when Jones replaced Appleton, but how much was just the usual new managerial bounce? Plus the team was significantly strengthened in January, so performances would probably have improved anyway, albeit slower than it happened.
If Jones was sacked and Appleton appointed now, I suspect in the short term results would improve...
not sure it was “significantly strengthened”. Small was a definite upgrade as was Ramsay but he was injured. Coventry has been better this season than he was last and REG, Bakinson, Ladapo, Fiorini and Gillesphey made little to no impact really
It will if we keep thinking the reflex jerk action of sacking the manager is a good idea. It has repeatedly proven a bad idea. When we sacked Appleton I disagreed with it and I disagree with it now. The problem can’t be the manager. It partially comes down to moden days’ players’ attitudes. They think that they can play like shit because the manager will be gone soon anyway. Sometimes they play like shit to intentionally get him sacked relying on this ’lost the dressing room’ bollocks. It’s the players you should be angry with not the manager. I’d like them to realise that the manager is staying put and they have to get in with it, do their best whether they like him or not, or else it is THEY who will be on the scrapheap, stupid useless bunch of pussies. Remember that: 99.9% wanted Appleton sacked and that Jones proved he could get decent results at the start of his contract. You were behind him then so stick by him. If the football is that shit then just don’t go. He probably pissed off the players somewhere after the Reading game but come on!...get over it!......man up you pussies (the players).
Seriously ? You disagreed with sacking appleton ? "the reflex jerk action" very likely saved us from being relegated.
"The problem can’t be the manager" Really ? Have you seen the style of football that we are playing ? NJ sold the Third Divisions leading scorer to bring in an absolute shit show of players to play kick & rush similar to what I played in the school playground in the 60s & to be honest I think we put in more effort back then so could have possibly got a result against this current bunch. "the reflex jerk action" ? Get him out together with his pile of shit ex Luton players.
There's 0 doubts regarding Appleton. Had we stuck we would be a League2 team imo. We were dead and buried under him, no fight.
You’re probably right but in the long term he could have built something and got us back up.
As it is, on a cycle of manager sacking, I’m convinced that soon we’ll be in League Two anyway but still on a downward spiral.
I totally agree that selling May was an awful decision but I believe in giving the manager time to get his system right and that includes even if we get relegated in the meantime.
I don’t care if I get 25 lols for my opinion. As a club we’ve been getting millions of unheard lols ever since we sacked Dowie and put Les Reid in charge.
Do those that lol my opinion ever look at other clubs. Sacking Ryan Lowe at Preston, sacking Robins at Coventry - are these the right decisions? Keeping Chris Wilder at Sheffield United- is that a bad decision? Is sacking Ten Hag a good decision?
I’m old enough to see that, generally, giving a manager several seasons works in the long term, and sacking a manager every year or two, let alone two or three managers a year, leads to disaster.
Wouldn't worry about Lols, everyone is entitled to their view.
I understand where you're coming from (unfortunately, the league2 part as well) but it's the football we play. If we were losing and you could see the build of something, I'd be patient. But we are being outplayed by teams with a fraction of our budget.
If we were losing to Birmingham, Bolton etc, teams with more money, and bigger/better squads, while showing progress against the lesser sides, it wouldn't bother me as much, if that makes sense? It's that we are looking like the underdog Vs. Everyone we play. It shouldn't be like that imo.
I don't think changing managers this often is healthy, but we have had rotten luck with league1 managers. Only Bowyer and Jackson in recent years have been sensible appointments, all the rest have made us look useless.
Let's see how Jones does on the weekend. The pressure is really on, if we can't turn over Mansfield, convincingly, I think his time is up. This is a game we 'should' be winning.
Comments
Jones' natural hatred of wingers is rooted in his desire for aggression and pressing to happen through violence and he doesn't see that coming from wingers, he wants the strikers to press the keeper's passing options, two midfielders to target the central areas and the wingbacks to then press the wide ball and get onto it for a quick break. That works sometimes against teams who insist on playing out but all our strategies are reactive and that doesn't work when you're expected to have the ball and win games with control. When Small plays he posts high early rather than running past as one of our midfielders receives the ball, Ramsay for all his excellent defensive skills couldn't link up effectively in triangles with his midfield and as a result instead of us stretching play and causing headaches for defenders with late overlapping runs and splitting centre backs for central through balls we just lump it up, try and win it and then at best hope to lay it back for Edwards or Coventry to try and wing a deep cross in. No pace on the cross, a bad angle and a tough ask for our strikers. We switched to the box and the diamond but it just creates the same problems; there's no width in attack which means there's no space created by movement and things are always static. I don't know why it is but we seem completely unable to coach our wingbacks to play as creative entities or move in a way that creates space for others. It's possibly because there's lingering trauma from how defensively open we were last season but we create a really tough ask on our defence to constantly keep a clean sheet and on our strikers to magic a goal off a single chance every game. It's just not practical to be telling these players that they have to be perfect at both ends of the pitch.
The Birmingham game is a good example of that, we did the dirty work incredibly well in limiting their supply but still we needed the back four to make no mistakes at all and Godden to take one of the few half chances we offered up. You might live that way as a newly promoted Premier League team and try to scrape 40 points but it's not sustainable for a team expected to get promotion and win most weeks. Jones is still talking about physicality and power but the real issue is in off the ball movement and triggers for passages of play that aren't just pressing. I think we'd see a huge improvement in our passing and the freedom in our midfielders even without bringing in a creative superstar just from the team creating gaps for each other and passing options that aren't backwards or big diagonals downfield. Surely someone on the coaching staff can see that?
If our first choice team has a defensive weakness, it's shots from the edge of the box.
As it is, on a cycle of manager sacking, I’m convinced that soon we’ll be in League Two anyway but still on a downward spiral.
I totally agree that selling May was an awful decision but I believe in giving the manager time to get his system right and that includes even if we get relegated in the meantime.
I don’t care if I get 25 lols for my opinion. As a club we’ve been getting millions of unheard lols ever since we sacked Dowie and put Les Reid in charge.
Do those that lol my opinion ever look at other clubs. Sacking Ryan Lowe at Preston, sacking Robins at Coventry - are these the right decisions?
Keeping Chris Wilder at Sheffield United- is that a bad decision? Is sacking Ten Hag a good decision?
I’m old enough to see that, generally, giving a manager several seasons works in the long term, and sacking a manager every year or two, let alone two or three managers a year, leads to disaster.
If Jones was sacked and Appleton appointed now, I suspect in the short term results would improve...
I understand where you're coming from (unfortunately, the league2 part as well) but it's the football we play. If we were losing and you could see the build of something, I'd be patient. But we are being outplayed by teams with a fraction of our budget.
If we were losing to Birmingham, Bolton etc, teams with more money, and bigger/better squads, while showing progress against the lesser sides, it wouldn't bother me as much, if that makes sense? It's that we are looking like the underdog Vs. Everyone we play. It shouldn't be like that imo.
I don't think changing managers this often is healthy, but we have had rotten luck with league1 managers. Only Bowyer and Jackson in recent years have been sensible appointments, all the rest have made us look useless.
Let's see how Jones does on the weekend. The pressure is really on, if we can't turn over Mansfield, convincingly, I think his time is up. This is a game we 'should' be winning.