Latimer Road fire
Comments
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Thanks for that D. It means a lot.AFKABartram said:Thanks for,sharing your thoughts @Addickted
Chin up mate
I'm devastated about this. About the loss of life. About the pain decent honest people are suffering from.
I've not slept since I got the phone call at 4am yesterday morning.
I drove up to Wigan yesterday for a Chief Fire Officers Conference and back home again today.
My in box is full of people wanting answers to questions that they had no interest in on Tuesday.
Yet some wanker thinks I wouldn't face the music if it was my responsibility. I would but if it was on my watch, I've no idea how I'd handle it whilst riddled with guilt despite knowing I'd done the best I could.
The only good thing to come out of this, is that fire safety is now top of the agenda.
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The problem is you start to deal with it, then you hear another story - like of the young woman throwing her baby out of the window to be caught (hopefully from her perspective) -knowing she was goingto die. The Dad talking about his missing 12 year old daughter - her school friend talking about her, the poor people saying goodbye to their loved oneson the phone. Then you get angry again. You see the anger in the community and that these people were warning of the risks on multiple ocassions and were ignored. You think, these people can't be ignored anymore. We owe them that much.
But we must also remember that nobody wnated this to happen. The causes may be negligence, but through lack of understanding of the consequences. I hope a lot of people will be looking at themselves. That these desperate people cried for help though and were ignored shames me. Why - because I am part of this society that allows these people fearful of the dangers attached to just living to be ignored. I was aware of the Lakanal House fire, but was not aware of the lack of following the recomendations of the report. I assumed through my own lifestyle - never going near one of these tower blocks that they all had sprinklers. I am part of an angry nation who belatedly wants to be heard for the sake of these pour souls.
People who say we need to wait and see and people shouldn't become self appointed safety experts are missing a major point. That is that people are living in these blocks now and will be terrified - that demands instant action. To me they are the voices of Grenfall Tower pleaing to be heard and not. Not only will they be terrified but they will almost certainly be at risks. Making jumps like identifying sprinklers will help does not require you to be an expert - there is an element of common sense here, and there is a detailed report reccomending it from experts following a fire in 2009 - where when you read the account of it - it could be the same tragedy you are reading about. A smaller block and less deaths, but it is intuitive that sprinklers would help and they would re-assure many people at the very least.
If we over react with too much passion because we are human - well thank god we are human.2 -
Just want to say that this is why @addickted is the independent fan representative on the club's Safety Advisory Group.
Keep up the good work and keep your chin up pal22 -
The problem is..... who would have the money to rebuild these towers? And also, once they are rebuilt, they will one so expensive that the people in there now will not be able to adored them, lose their homes. Will the places they are displaced to be any better?Dansk_Red said:There should be d be a program in place to demolish these old tower blocks as Bexley have done with the Larner Road Estate. The problem being, finding homes for the families that are displaced, so councils go gone the refurbishment route. I would like to add that I spent a good deal deal of my working life in the sprinkler industry (37years) and believe you me retrofitting sprinkler systems into existing tower blocks would be a logistical nightmare with location of the water tanks and pumping equipment etc. The best way would be demolish them and rebuild to modern standards, after all they will probably be demolished in the next 25years anyway.
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That is the sad reality in which we live.NapaAddick said:
The problem is..... who would have the money to rebuild these towers? And also, once they are rebuilt, they will one so expensive that the people in there now will not be able to adored them, lose their homes. Will the places they are displaced to be any better?Dansk_Red said:There should be d be a program in place to demolish these old tower blocks as Bexley have done with the Larner Road Estate. The problem being, finding homes for the families that are displaced, so councils go gone the refurbishment route. I would like to add that I spent a good deal deal of my working life in the sprinkler industry (37years) and believe you me retrofitting sprinkler systems into existing tower blocks would be a logistical nightmare with location of the water tanks and pumping equipment etc. The best way would be demolish them and rebuild to modern standards, after all they will probably be demolished in the next 25years anyway.
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More than one news outlet says they fear the death toll could rise to 100+ once all the flats are searched. Wow.0
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Have to say your professionalism and care about your residents comes shining through, mate.Addickted said:
Thanks for that D. It means a lot.AFKABartram said:Thanks for,sharing your thoughts @Addickted
Chin up mate
I'm devastated about this. About the loss of life. About the pain decent honest people are suffering from.
I've not slept since I got the phone call at 4am yesterday morning.
I drove up to Wigan yesterday for a Chief Fire Officers Conference and back home again today.
My in box is full of people wanting answers to questions that they had no interest in on Tuesday.
Yet some wanker thinks I wouldn't face the music if it was my responsibility. I would but if it was on my watch, I've no idea how I'd handle it whilst riddled with guilt despite knowing I'd done the best I could.
The only good thing to come out of this, is that fire safety is now top of the agenda.
It is a terrible disaster. Hopefully the root cause of it can be quickly established to help prevent another accident occurring from the same problem.4 -
I must admit, being a labour man, I'm finding all this media focus on May's actions in the aftermath a bit uncomfortable given the magnitude/severity and sadness of the situation. Fine for the papers to question failings on a government level for how this happened, but I'm not comfortable with this as an element of the reporting.
I don't think it helps and I do see it as political point scoring at an incredibly sensitive time.
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I would suggest that you miss the point. We are all aware there are thousands of scared people desperate to discover the cause of this tragic event as soon as possible in order for risks to be rectified.MuttleyCAFC said:The problem is you start to deal with it, then you hear another story - like of the young woman throwing her baby out of the window to be caught (hopefully from her perspective) -knowing she was goingto die. The Dad talking about his missing 12 year old daughter - her school friend talking about her, the poor people saying goodbye to their loved oneson the phone. Then you get angry again. You see the anger in the community and that these people were warning of the risks on multiple ocassions and were ignored. You think, these people can't be ignored anymore. We owe them that much.
But we must also remember that nobody wnated this to happen. The causes may be negligence, but through lack of understanding of the consequences. I hope a lot of people will be looking at themselves. That these desperate people cried for help though and were ignored shames me. Why - because I am part of this society that allows these people fearful of the dangers attached to just living to be ignored. I was aware of the Lakanal House fire, but was not aware of the lack of following the recomendations of the report. I assumed through my own lifestyle - never going near one of these tower blocks that they all had sprinklers. I am part of an angry nation who belatedly wants to be heard for the sake of these pour souls.
People who say we need to wait and see and people shouldn't become self appointed safety experts are missing a major point. That is that people are living in these blocks now and will be terrified - that demands instant action. To me they are the voices of Grenfall Tower pleaing to be heard and not. Not only will they be terrified but they will almost certainly be at risks. Making jumps like identifying sprinklers will help does not require you to be an expert - there is an element of common sense here, and there is a detailed report reccomending it from experts following a fire in 2009 - where when you read the account of it - it could be the same tragedy you are reading about. A smaller block and less deaths, but it is intuitive that sprinklers would help and they would re-assure many people at the very least.
If we over react with too much passion because we are human - well thank god we are human.
Everyone on here empathises with them I am sure.
What is wrong is emotionally pointing the finger of blame around with no firm idea of the route cause. This goes doubly to those wanting to make cheap party political points to promote ideology.
Right now we probably all believe that the cladding, nothing can be done in the next few days weeks or even months to rectify this particular issue. This won't sooth the troubled minds of residents in similar situations.
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In that case, more than one news outlet demonstrating reprehensible mawkishness and adding nothing to of value to the common understanding of what needs to be done.NapaAddick said:More than one news outlet says they fear the death toll could rise to 100+ once all the flats are searched. Wow.
Speculation is almost always unhelpful. When it's the news media doing the ghoulish guessing, it's dangerous, unkind and unnecessary.1 -
I think we have to move away from this as much as we can because in the short term we do need actions and we need openness not defensiveness. We need to take collective responsibility and try not to make it political. But elements of it are going to be political - the families concerned are making it political. I noted that Labour mayor Sadiq Khan was booed and shouted down - so it is not just aimed in one direction. We have all let these people down and we now have to make amends. I was going to say put it right, but we can't do that can we?0
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If our fire regulations are not fit for purpose they need reviewing asap - forget about the blame we need to prevent this happening again. If it proves that the cladding meets regulations and yet contributed to the rapid spread of the fire then urgent action is needed.
Public inquiries about blame are for another day - the current focus should be on ensuring that other buildings don't suffer the same fate.6 -
I do respect and understand what you are saying, but I don't suppose the residents who were voicing their concerns were experts in fire safety. Maybe that is part of the reason their concerns were ignored. What I do know is that the experts in fire safety did not protect them.Addickted said:
Because it's virtually impossible to do.MuttleyCAFC said:When are sprinklers goingto be installed in all high rise blocks? I am getting angrier this has not been announced yet!
It took me three years to get approval for and support funding from KFRS to retrofit a sprinkler system to a 10 storey block in North Kent.
Resident consultation, Section 20 notices to all leaseholders - three of whom we were unable to find as they lived overseas and sub let their flat - our tenants as well as leaseholders refusing to allow the contractors access to their flats and political pressure to make sure we can't force this on them.
Opposition to the additional service charges for servicing and maintaining the new systems.
Problems trying to find the best contractors and subbies to carry out the works -and the price increase when they knew we had 50% grant funding.
Problems with South East water and their ability to provide the block with a guaranteed water supply, let alone the post installation problems we've had with supplies at the required pressure.
The work is finished but we've still not been able to complete it to six flats. If there is a fire in one of them, then we have to rely on the alarm system and compartmentation to work.
Oh, and the average cost per flat was £3,170. So please don't accept marketing figures for a one installation that are just not happening in the real world
The sooner the Building Regulations are changed to ensure all new high rise blocks and all buildings that house vulnerable people have sprinklers then the better.
The retrofitting of sprinklers in existing building is a completely different kettle of fish and I'd prefer those who know fuck all about this apart from what they read from shouty posters on twitter, to actually wait and see what caused this horrific fire, how it spread so quickly, why did the passive fire protection fail and if the rumours about failures in the active protection are true or not.
And I have this morning seen on the TV experts in fire safety calling for retro fitting of sprinklers. There is an expert report dating from 2013 demanding this. What is the difference between these people and you? As a non expert I think that is a fair question - and it is not meant in an aggresive way.0 -
I think your response says more about your attitude to local authorities and the people who work for them than anything approaching the reality of the situation. Probably best we leave it there tbh.TellyTubby said:
You may be right about cuts, I don't know but my point is about poor management.Bournemouth Addick said:
With regard to your comment re:absence of coordinated assistance I cannot speak for all other authorities but at least two of my certain knowledge have cut back on staff in emergency planning departments. I would expect that's a very common response when presented with making savings i.e. councils will cut the posts that are least likely to cause local objections and adverse media attention.TellyTubby said:Grief will, and is turning to due to the real or perceived lack of official support from the authorities.
People on the ground complain of little or no presence from officials. I would expect one person organising the heroic voluntarily efforts, making sure that all centres can contact that person. That could be done by an obvious presence at each centre.
Clearly the residents have been very let down and someone will hopefully answer in due course.
May should have at least met some residents in private and ensured practical support on the ground. That's what a good leader does. She will rightly be badly thought of for her perceived lack of compassion.
Just seen a poor fella who's parents and siblings where on the top floor. He too was voicing anger at not being told what has happened to them and accused the authorities of not bothering to find out. Clearly this is not a fair accusation but more support would help I am sure.
The lead up to the deaths seems to be a total f***k up. The way ordinary people have stepped up to the mark is wonderful but the local and national government's appartent inaction in the aftermath is looking beyond words.
This is not the U.K.plc finest hour.
It doesn't matter what their funding levels are, the leader of the council or the very highly paid CEO should be bringing in staff from neighbouring boroughs or demanding the government supply civil servants or military administrators to organise on the ground.
They should be picking up the ball and running with it, not sitting in the bar with their heads in their hands.
No excuse whatsoever for lack of visible action. I can see the anger only getting worse and the politicians who are not seen to act will regret it.0 -
did he criticise the government the day it happened? Yesaliwibble said:
Did you actually watch the interview, or are you just going by what was reported about it?palarsehater said:corbyn yesterday taking an opportunity to attack tories whilst people are still missing in a burning building i thought was bad
is the government coservative? Yes
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edit; may visited the site yesterday, the constant blubbing over everything she does is quite irritating, suppose this will be a constant until corbyn is pm.palarsehater said:
did he criticise the government the day it happened? Yesaliwibble said:
Did you actually watch the interview, or are you just going by what was reported about it?palarsehater said:corbyn yesterday taking an opportunity to attack tories whilst people are still missing in a burning building i thought was bad
is the government coservative? Yes0 -
This is so terrible words don't work any more.
I feel guilty that to me it is too awful to even think about or follow.
I wish peace to those who have passed and the blessing of time to help all those affected to heal a little.
I never want to hear the phrase 'health and safety gone mad' ever again.2 -
Bit like the people on here who leap to blame Khan for anything and everything that happens in London including on this thread and this fire.palarsehater said:
edit; may visited the site yesterday, the constant blubbing over everything she does is quite irritating, suppose this will be a constant until corbyn is pm.palarsehater said:
did he criticise the government the day it happened? Yesaliwibble said:
Did you actually watch the interview, or are you just going by what was reported about it?palarsehater said:corbyn yesterday taking an opportunity to attack tories whilst people are still missing in a burning building i thought was bad
is the government coservative? Yes9 -
ive never blamed khan, the way he handled the media after 2 terrorist attacks i think was bad.Henry Irving said:
Bit like the people on here who leap to blame Khan for anything and everything that happens in London including on this thread and this fire.palarsehater said:
edit; may visited the site yesterday, the constant blubbing over everything she does is quite irritating, suppose this will be a constant until corbyn is pm.palarsehater said:
did he criticise the government the day it happened? Yesaliwibble said:
Did you actually watch the interview, or are you just going by what was reported about it?palarsehater said:corbyn yesterday taking an opportunity to attack tories whilst people are still missing in a burning building i thought was bad
is the government coservative? Yes0 - Sponsored links:
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More point scoring, well done.
Good friend is a fireman and said the things he saw yesterday on the body search will stay with him forever. He's a bigger man than me.3 -
How far do you go with improving the fire regulations though. Do we make all buildings sterile?
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None taken, Happy to explain.MuttleyCAFC said:
I do respect and understand what you are saying, but I don't suppose the residents who were voicing their concerns were experts in fire safety. Maybe that is part of the reason their concerns were ignored. What I do know is that the experts in fire safety did not protect them.Addickted said:
Because it's virtually impossible to do.MuttleyCAFC said:When are sprinklers goingto be installed in all high rise blocks? I am getting angrier this has not been announced yet!
It took me three years to get approval for and support funding from KFRS to retrofit a sprinkler system to a 10 storey block in North Kent.
Resident consultation, Section 20 notices to all leaseholders - three of whom we were unable to find as they lived overseas and sub let their flat - our tenants as well as leaseholders refusing to allow the contractors access to their flats and political pressure to make sure we can't force this on them.
Opposition to the additional service charges for servicing and maintaining the new systems.
Problems trying to find the best contractors and subbies to carry out the works -and the price increase when they knew we had 50% grant funding.
Problems with South East water and their ability to provide the block with a guaranteed water supply, let alone the post installation problems we've had with supplies at the required pressure.
The work is finished but we've still not been able to complete it to six flats. If there is a fire in one of them, then we have to rely on the alarm system and compartmentation to work.
Oh, and the average cost per flat was £3,170. So please don't accept marketing figures for a one installation that are just not happening in the real world
The sooner the Building Regulations are changed to ensure all new high rise blocks and all buildings that house vulnerable people have sprinklers then the better.
The retrofitting of sprinklers in existing building is a completely different kettle of fish and I'd prefer those who know fuck all about this apart from what they read from shouty posters on twitter, to actually wait and see what caused this horrific fire, how it spread so quickly, why did the passive fire protection fail and if the rumours about failures in the active protection are true or not.
And I have this morning seen on the TV experts in fire safety calling for retro fitting of sprinklers. There is an expert report dating from 2013 demanding this. What is the difference between these people and you? As a non expert I think that is a fair question - and it is not meant in an aggresive way.
Firstly, there are massive concerns from residents about the disruption. Elderly and disabled particularly find this kind of disruption to their daily lives unbearable. And it is an unbelievably messy job retrofittng a sprinkler system. The first residential building site I've visited where ear defenders are compulsory.
My previous post on this explains the first example I've worked on - meanwhile our development team have built three buildings with sprinkler systems in - over and above the building regulations and despite massive opposition from some of our senior management team. Attitudes changed slightly after I got someone in to explain to them the extent of the Corporate Manslaughter Act.
Of course, if you make it law then it will happen, but its not an overnight fix. It will take at least a decade to complete.
A quick win would be to introduce the requirement now, for all new builds of four storeys or over to have a sprinkler or mist system installed during construction, I see no reason why this cannot happen today.0 -
In all honesty - what he said, a conservative could say exactly the same thing. I could see somebody like Michael Portillo saying exactly that on a TV programme. He was well informed about the Camberwell fire and was cautious in his words, but highlighted where the questions will be focussed as a response to being asked by the reporter.
Are we saying that if somebody thinks there are failings that caused this pain and death, they should not raise them? I think it is his job to raise them. We do have to realise and undertsand that nobody wanted or expected this tragedy - that is very important and we should never forget that. But we do owe it to the victims to ask difficult questions, and if they are answered in a satisfactory way, so be it.
Maybe we should let the politicains talk and challenge and us steer away from the politics and focus on the tragedy and what needs to be done now.0 -
[something about a politician in a thread where I don't think we should be talking about politics] plus, in same sentence [that politician did something else regarding a different thing that I didn't like either]0
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Never said you did but Carlyburn did though and isn't May being blamed for the way she's acted after the fire?palarsehater said:
ive never blamed khan, the way he handled the media after 2 terrorist attacks i think was bad.Henry Irving said:
Bit like the people on here who leap to blame Khan for anything and everything that happens in London including on this thread and this fire.palarsehater said:
edit; may visited the site yesterday, the constant blubbing over everything she does is quite irritating, suppose this will be a constant until corbyn is pm.palarsehater said:
did he criticise the government the day it happened? Yesaliwibble said:
Did you actually watch the interview, or are you just going by what was reported about it?palarsehater said:corbyn yesterday taking an opportunity to attack tories whilst people are still missing in a burning building i thought was bad
is the government coservative? Yes
Khan says "People shouldn't be alarmed when they see armed police and soldiers on the streets of London" and this is spun as Khan said people shouldn't be alarmed by the London bridge attack.0 -
I agree and he looked way out of his depth yesterday too. Not a criticism as it's obviously difficult situations he has faced but if you are Mayor of London you need to look and sound more authoritative.palarsehater said:
ive never blamed khan, the way he handled the media after 2 terrorist attacks i think was bad.Henry Irving said:
Bit like the people on here who leap to blame Khan for anything and everything that happens in London including on this thread and this fire.palarsehater said:
edit; may visited the site yesterday, the constant blubbing over everything she does is quite irritating, suppose this will be a constant until corbyn is pm.palarsehater said:
did he criticise the government the day it happened? Yesaliwibble said:
Did you actually watch the interview, or are you just going by what was reported about it?palarsehater said:corbyn yesterday taking an opportunity to attack tories whilst people are still missing in a burning building i thought was bad
is the government coservative? Yes
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When the report is finalised, everyone involved will have to make sure that this type of tragedy is unrepeatable, whatever it takes. Everyone's focus will be on what improvements must be made. At that time, no-one will think about Theresa May's reaction to it.
When Theresa May is finally wrenched out of office, her reaction to grieving and bereft victims of this tragedy (ie going out of her way to avoid them) will be seen as the turning point of her political career.0 -
May's political career is not relevant to this thread though.1
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was more the “part and parcel of living in a big city" i was referring to but this isn't the time or the place, so ill leave it at that.Henry Irving said:
Never said you did but Carlyburn did though and isn't May being blamed for the way she's acted after the fire?palarsehater said:
ive never blamed khan, the way he handled the media after 2 terrorist attacks i think was bad.Henry Irving said:
Bit like the people on here who leap to blame Khan for anything and everything that happens in London including on this thread and this fire.palarsehater said:
edit; may visited the site yesterday, the constant blubbing over everything she does is quite irritating, suppose this will be a constant until corbyn is pm.palarsehater said:
did he criticise the government the day it happened? Yesaliwibble said:
Did you actually watch the interview, or are you just going by what was reported about it?palarsehater said:corbyn yesterday taking an opportunity to attack tories whilst people are still missing in a burning building i thought was bad
is the government coservative? Yes
Khan says "People shouldn't be alarmed when they see armed police and soldiers on the streets of London" and this is spun as Khan said people shouldn't be alarmed by the London bridge attack.0 -
No, it's not the place but to just to kill another piece of spin this is what he said in contextpalarsehater said:
was more the “part and parcel of living in a big city" i was referring to but this isn't the time or the place, so ill leave it at that.Henry Irving said:
Never said you did but Carlyburn did though and isn't May being blamed for the way she's acted after the fire?palarsehater said:
ive never blamed khan, the way he handled the media after 2 terrorist attacks i think was bad.Henry Irving said:
Bit like the people on here who leap to blame Khan for anything and everything that happens in London including on this thread and this fire.palarsehater said:
edit; may visited the site yesterday, the constant blubbing over everything she does is quite irritating, suppose this will be a constant until corbyn is pm.palarsehater said:
did he criticise the government the day it happened? Yesaliwibble said:
Did you actually watch the interview, or are you just going by what was reported about it?palarsehater said:corbyn yesterday taking an opportunity to attack tories whilst people are still missing in a burning building i thought was bad
is the government coservative? Yes
Khan says "People shouldn't be alarmed when they see armed police and soldiers on the streets of London" and this is spun as Khan said people shouldn't be alarmed by the London bridge attack.
"Sadiq Khan has said he believes the threat of terror attacks are “part and parcel of living in a big city” and encouraged Londoners to be vigilant to combat dangers.
The Mayor of London revealed he had a “sleepless night” after the recent bombing in New York, and said major cities around the world “have got to be prepared for these sorts of things” to happen when people least expect them.
“That means being vigilant, having a police force that is in touch with communities, it means the security services being ready, but it also means exchanging ideas and best practice”, Mr Khan told the Evening Standard shortly before a meeting with New York mayor Bill de Blasio.
Key word is "Threat" but that has been spun as Khan saying "Attacks" are part and parcel of living in a big city" with the implication that he thinks that is OK when clearly he isn't saying that.
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