Has Bowyer lost it?

mascot88 said:

With the salary cap I think we are down here for a few years .... 

Each year it will get tougher as another three teams from the Championship come down with decent players in their squad who only count as the league average salary against the cap. It really is imperative that we do everything possible within our control to get up this year.

Redrobo said:

Love Bowyer, Love his honesty.
Seems to see what I see. Seems to react to what I see.
Maybe some never played in a team that wanted to win.
Maybe never been in a situation when that mattered.
Maybe some do not understand what that means.
To be in a team. To be against it.
I hate quitters.
I hate negativity.
It is never over until it is.
Fit in or fuck off.
Stay together and fight.
Never surrender.
Win or lose, we do it together.

Is that a Stuart Pearce quote (left back btw)

Braziliance said:

cafcfan1990 said:

Braziliance said:

Callumcafc said:

Cafc43v3r said:

Callumcafc said:

SELR_addicks said:

Again comes out and calls the players crap. Not really here for it. You picked them Bowyer, live with it. 

Really don't understand this point of view. Every player in the squad that was signed pre-Sandgaard was signed under very limiting circumstances and most likely will not have been first choice targets. A clear out will be needed, whether Bowyer is in charge or someone else is.

You've also got older heads like Amos, Forster-Caskey and Williams who used the one year extension option in their contracts with us because they knew they were unlikely to get better offers elsewhere. Meanwhile, half decent players like Lockyer jumped ship.

So you would get rid of Amos, JFC and Williams, or actually just not have them at all?  Bowyer signed 2 of them in the first place. 

What about Washington and Gilbey who signed them pre Thomas?  Someone really wanted them else they wouldn't have risked administration or begged the EFL to let them sign them.

What about Watson, Maddison and Gunter who Bowyer wanted last season?

He spent the full cap, it's not like he was forced to sign nobodies or play a bunch of kids. 

It might be controversial but yes I would. I think the wages can be better spent on players that have potential to go beyond good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two. Yes Bowyer signed two of them but once again, they were signed under very difficult circumstances.

I also believe the best way for a promotion aspiring squad to save some of the budget is to loan a keeper, it's worked well for other side's in this league and the championship, if we have a solidified back 4 a keeper is easy enough to bed in compared to let's say a loanee centre back or centre mid. Amos (although I rate him) wages will be the most for a league 1 keeper and he's hardly showing he is the stand out keeper in this league. Nathan Baxter did very well for Accrington against us for instance and I imagine he isn't taking up even close to Amos wage bill. 

I think next season we need to see if AMB is ready or loan a prem goalie 

Not sure it matters to be honest. You need to loan 5/6 decent players, don’t think their position matters. If you have a decent keeper, why get rid of him to loan one in. That’s an extra outfield player you need to sign rather than loan. 

I think in our circumstance it would, with loans it will sometimes be the case of a prem team paying so long as they play, Amos is probably on 2x what the average league 1 player is I imagine more or less, a goalie is a lot easier to get every other season until the rest of your team is set, back lines, mids and striker pairings take a lot more work.

I am just saying for next season I don't see the need for Amos assuming he is still on high wages and we need to save money, could be invested in better areas imo

Agree on the wage. I obviously wouldn’t want to be paying Amos 4-5k with a salary cap. 

Wouldn't be surprised if players like Amos do what Matthews did this season. Their agent would tell them that it's not worth staying under the cap and so look elsewhere. They could come back later if there's no interest but that's a dangerous game obviously. I think JFC could stay as I doubt he's on big bucks. Fully expect Williams to go whatever division we are in. 

se9addick said:

Garrymanilow said:

Dazzler21 said:

Cafc43v3r said:

Callumcafc said:

Cafc43v3r said:

Callumcafc said:

SELR_addicks said:

Again comes out and calls the players crap. Not really here for it. You picked them Bowyer, live with it. 

Really don't understand this point of view. Every player in the squad that was signed pre-Sandgaard was signed under very limiting circumstances and most likely will not have been first choice targets. A clear out will be needed, whether Bowyer is in charge or someone else is.

You've also got older heads like Amos, Forster-Caskey and Williams who used the one year extension option in their contracts with us because they knew they were unlikely to get better offers elsewhere. Meanwhile, half decent players like Lockyer jumped ship.

So you would get rid of Amos, JFC and Williams, or actually just not have them at all?  Bowyer signed 2 of them in the first place. 

What about Washington and Gilbey who signed them pre Thomas?  Someone really wanted them else they wouldn't have risked administration or begged the EFL to let them sign them.

What about Watson, Maddison and Gunter who Bowyer wanted last season?

He spent the full cap, it's not like he was forced to sign nobodies or play a bunch of kids. 

It might be controversial but yes I would. I think the wages can be better spent on players that have potential to go beyond good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two. Yes Bowyer signed two of them but once again, they were signed under very difficult circumstances.

I don't think that's controversial, I think it's weird.  What "good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two" players can you magic up for a couple of grand a week? 

Amos is better than that, so is Williams.  If they leave in the summer I don't think you'll see either of them rock up at a Gillingham. 

Also they're only charged at £1,300 a week each so even if you got 'as good as' players you'd be getting less value.

I think I'm correct in saying that the only reason Amos, JFC and Williams don't count towards the cap is because they took up existing extensions to their old deals which are now due to expire. That won't happen again so any new deal for those players would be counted against the cap next season, which would be crippling under the cap. I think this is almost certainly Williams' last season with us; he can't stay in L1 unless he's willing to earn next to nothing and I don't think Bowyer will want him in the Championship given his declining effectiveness. I think as decent as Amos is we can get a simialr standard keeper for less than his (low) Championship wages. Bowyer likes JFC but again it will depend on how low he's willing to go on wages, and it'll have to be pretty low

Wasn’t there a cut off date in August for contract renewals up to which point the league average counted for those salaries but after which the full whack would apply? Will there not be a similar situation up to August 2021 for the 2021/22 season or was that a one time thing? If it was a one time thing then this summer is going to be a bloodbath for players over the age of 21. 

One time because of the cap being introduced. All renewing of contracts and new signings will now count (21+ obviously). To go up I think you need to have a core of around 14 players ages 21+, 5 loans of which a couple are 21+ on cheap wages for us and then at least 2/3 quality players under 21. 

.....still trying to work out when it became so completely unacceptable for Charlton to let in 4 at home to the likes of Rochdale.

Gravesend_Addick said:

i_b_b_o_r_g said:

.....still trying to work out when it became so completely unacceptable for Charlton to let in 4 at home to the likes of Rochdale.

Ok fair enough  Maybe 'clear' was the wrong choice of words, but it is my opinion that the players are not playing for Bowyer & when that happens, it's very hard to come back from. 

To be clear, I love Bowyer & really want it to work out for him here, but as I've also stated previously, I think the job is affecting his mental state & I think he needs a break.  He looks so despondent after every game.

But we are on a pretty terrible run, that's surely to be expected? I'd be more concerned if he was ecstatic after we lose. 

cafcfan1990 said:

se9addick said:

Garrymanilow said:

Dazzler21 said:

Cafc43v3r said:

Callumcafc said:

Cafc43v3r said:

Callumcafc said:

SELR_addicks said:

Again comes out and calls the players crap. Not really here for it. You picked them Bowyer, live with it. 

Really don't understand this point of view. Every player in the squad that was signed pre-Sandgaard was signed under very limiting circumstances and most likely will not have been first choice targets. A clear out will be needed, whether Bowyer is in charge or someone else is.

You've also got older heads like Amos, Forster-Caskey and Williams who used the one year extension option in their contracts with us because they knew they were unlikely to get better offers elsewhere. Meanwhile, half decent players like Lockyer jumped ship.

So you would get rid of Amos, JFC and Williams, or actually just not have them at all?  Bowyer signed 2 of them in the first place. 

What about Washington and Gilbey who signed them pre Thomas?  Someone really wanted them else they wouldn't have risked administration or begged the EFL to let them sign them.

What about Watson, Maddison and Gunter who Bowyer wanted last season?

He spent the full cap, it's not like he was forced to sign nobodies or play a bunch of kids. 

It might be controversial but yes I would. I think the wages can be better spent on players that have potential to go beyond good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two. Yes Bowyer signed two of them but once again, they were signed under very difficult circumstances.

I don't think that's controversial, I think it's weird.  What "good-to-decent tier three, relegation fodder tier two" players can you magic up for a couple of grand a week? 

Amos is better than that, so is Williams.  If they leave in the summer I don't think you'll see either of them rock up at a Gillingham. 

Also they're only charged at £1,300 a week each so even if you got 'as good as' players you'd be getting less value.

I think I'm correct in saying that the only reason Amos, JFC and Williams don't count towards the cap is because they took up existing extensions to their old deals which are now due to expire. That won't happen again so any new deal for those players would be counted against the cap next season, which would be crippling under the cap. I think this is almost certainly Williams' last season with us; he can't stay in L1 unless he's willing to earn next to nothing and I don't think Bowyer will want him in the Championship given his declining effectiveness. I think as decent as Amos is we can get a simialr standard keeper for less than his (low) Championship wages. Bowyer likes JFC but again it will depend on how low he's willing to go on wages, and it'll have to be pretty low

Wasn’t there a cut off date in August for contract renewals up to which point the league average counted for those salaries but after which the full whack would apply? Will there not be a similar situation up to August 2021 for the 2021/22 season or was that a one time thing? If it was a one time thing then this summer is going to be a bloodbath for players over the age of 21. 

One time because of the cap being introduced. All renewing of contracts and new signings will now count (21+ obviously). To go up I think you need to have a core of around 14 players ages 21+, 5 loans of which a couple are 21+ on cheap wages for us and then at least 2/3 quality players under 21. 

Brutal - experienced players who are out of contract this year are looking at big wage cuts in the summer. 

mendonca said:

He seems to be depressed to me. Quite clear looking at his mood, mannerisms and general wellbeing. Mix that with emotions for Charlton, not a healthy mix.

Stressed most definitely, as 99% of managers are, some high profile cases of Premier League managers getting ill over the stress. I think depressed is an exaggeration. 

cafcfan1990 said:

mendonca said:

He seems to be depressed to me. Quite clear looking at his mood, mannerisms and general wellbeing. Mix that with emotions for Charlton, not a healthy mix.

Stressed most definitely, as 99% of managers are, some high profile cases of Premier League managers getting ill over the stress. I think depressed is an exaggeration. 

Of course, it is just a personal guess. Like assuming that 99% of managers are stressed ;-)

Last night would be especially upsetting as a manager given that he came with a plan that really did make sense given the circumstances and was working well... But ruined by a couple of individual mistakes that he really couldn't have accounted for.
(And not just the defensive balls up, but Aneke's failure to play in Schwartz for example.)

I've been on both sides of the Great Bowyer Debate, currently I'm seeing some signs of improvement but with lots of further steps needed. Certainly now he's talking about a player he was hoping to have already signed makes me think he's confident in his job security, and TS seems the type to give Bowyer at least this season and probably a fair crack at the next given the previous situation.

We seem to be in some eternal loop with this thread.

Two camps ... the 'Bowyer is in credit' brigade who then overlook any shortcomings and failures because he stuck with us during the dark times... and the 'Bowyer out' crew because we are not sitting ten points clear at the top of a woeful League 1.

Depending on each result, both camps then re-inforce their already entrenched views ... and off we go again until the next match.

Let's try to identify a few facts in the hope that we don't re-hash the same points for ever more.

1) I often hear that we have the best squad in the League and that our players are the envy of all or most other Clubs.

Really?  Have we been impressed with Bogle, Smyth, Gunter, Gilbey?  I know I haven't. 

Even Maatsen ... who I had high hopes for ... has actually been disappointing.  Too easily thrown off his game when things don't go quite right.

2) Does Bowyer know his best team?

I think it might be worse than that.  I would ask ... what is our general game plan?

I suspect that Bowyer recruits players who he believes are 'good' players.  And then expects 'good' players to do the business on the pitch.  Sadly, it doesn't work like that.

Players need to know their roles.  As an example, note how Maatsen and Millar are beginning to combine well down our left side ... but to what end?  An occasional cross comes in ... or Millar will check inside.  And then what?  A speculative ball across the penalty area ... but no sign of Bogle or Aneke attacking it.  So, what exactly are the players trying to do?  It's a percentage game ... get the ball in the box and things will happen ... maybe.  And maybe Ronnie Noggin will help with that.  Let's see.

In midfield, only Millar and Williams run with the ball.  But, with little movement ahead of them, there is rarely an opportunity to play someone in.

So, we end up as a long-ball team.  We play it around at the back ... and then we lump it up front where we fail to control the ball and the opposition come back at us.

What type of team are we?  I don't think we know.  I don't think the players know.  I don't think Bowyer knows.

3) We have been unlucky with injuries and we'll be much stronger when our better players return.

Yes.

Like every other team in this League, and like every other team in history.

4) Despite our poor form, we're still in a Play-Off spot, so we must be doing something right.

This is a woeful League.  Our position is more an indicator of the standard around us ... not of our competence.


So, where does that leave us?

We may do some successful recruitment this month.  I hope so.  But, until Bowyer establishes the kind of team we wish to be, then any new signings will be speculative rather than targeted.  We may have to wait until the Summer before a real 'spine' can be acquired ... around which some nimble-footed, agile but robust players can operate.

I don't think we're going up this season ... if we do, it will be due to the shortcomings of other teams ... but, if Sandgaard is patient and Bowyer gets his head up and gets his thoughts clear, then we will all be happy.

@Dave Rudd the key part for me is as you say are we going to go from game to game? and react depending on the viewpoint to each match?