Dinosaurs and the bible

Rob said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

Going to hell is surely a worthless threat if you aim it at somebody who doesn't believe. 

@ValleyOfTears. Isn’t that what conservative Christians believe though? That all unbelievers will go to hell.

I have no idea what political groups of ppl may say with regard hell. Out of love noone would ever want anyone to go there. The methods of how someone conveys this can vary greatly I grant you. 

As heartbreaking as it, if some still obstinately reject Salvation then they have made their choice. But cursing people and telling them they are going to hell, no that is not right. 

aliwibble said:

ValleyOfTears said:

Chizz said:

holyjo said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

ShootersHillGuru said:

I don’t believe in a god and I live my life by values that I’d consider humanitarian or at least as much as 99% of people. I hate the term “Christian values”. It’s bloody insulting.

Whether you believe or not, the teachings and values attributed to Jesus is what represents Christian Values. Not that only christians have them I suspect. That's how I see it so don't find it insulting for that reason.  What I find strange is the most conservative christians don't really share those values!

Values like killing women for losing their virginity out of wedlock, or killing a child for cursing their parents? Perhaps it’s the pro slavery teaching that make for Christian values? 

Wait, murdering rape victims has to be the real winner. 

But it’s all ok if it does no harm to others 🤦 

Those values are Old Testament …. Pre Christ and as such not Christian. Part of Jewish law as described in the Torah or first five books of the old Testament 

Slavery, homophobia, violence and misogyny are all "values" which are promoted in the New Testament.  I think these "values" ought not to be taught. 

Could you furnish us with citations in the gospels that underpin this rather bleak claim Chizz? I don't know such followers of Christ. Love all, serve all is His message. Starting with loving Him. 

But the New Testament isn't just the gospels, it's also the epistles, so you're indulging in a touch of sleight of hand here. It's probably going to be St Paul's letter to someone or other, cos it normally bloody is.

AW. Good point NT v The Gospels. 
I think St Paul gets a bit of a bashing these days (especially from Islamic scholars) but while the gospels is the message of salvation, St Paul writes how that "working out salvation with fear and trembling" takes place. How the Christian life is lived out. 

Even including "the dreaded Paul"! I still can't see how a believer would arrive at the accusations being levelled at him on this thread. 

Hi Rob, 

I think it is really unhelpful when people use damnation (people going to hell) as a sort of " if you don't do what I'm doing and MY WAY then you are going to hell" attitude. Some do and obviously it does great harm. 

That said, a good Christian will do all they can to encourage every person they encounter to choose Christ and live in The Spirit not for the world and the flesh. The fruits of The Spirit is Life eternal. The fruits of the flesh (unrepented) is death. (Hell)  For eternity!  Ultimately it is ourselves that choose our eternal destiny. I am certain God does not will for anyone to be lost. 

The perennial question is ~ how do we (believers) encourage non believers to choose Salvation ( heaven) and not hell. Not easy. 

If my friend was driving fast towards a cliff edge and oblivious to what lay ahead, you would count it an act of love if I grabbed the wheel and forced him to change course. (Even if I had to punch him in the face in the process to achieve this!)  I could try saying nice things to him and not be too "preachy" to get him to change course but I doubt I would achieve the desired outcome!  You get the picture.  

Have you had any positive discussions with Christians on this subject? Forgive my manifold limitations in apologetics and Theology! 

CharltonMadrid said:

With the amount of time humans have been on the planet, following of organised religion only represents a small time period. It's also going to fade out more and more as time goes on and I imagine in the next couple of hundred years there will only be a small minority following religions, with the majority of these being Muslim rather than Christian. 

To look around today I would say your forecast is looking pretty good CM 👍 

But "looks" can deceive. And " numbers" mean little when talking about genuine faith. To turn to Sacred Scripture we find time and time again, God cares little for the "appearance" of things and looks to the heart. Abraham needed to find "Just 10 good men". Gideons army. Joshua lead the few into the Promised Land and had to defeat tonnes of opponents. 

Back to 2024 ...
Those with a European heritage, have largely chosen NOT to bring life into the world from the 1960s onwards. This rapid decline (we are way below the "replacement rate" in many countries). See Pew Research and any demographic data for this)  in populations and the falling away from religion ARE connected.  

Islam appears to be the only religion in town because of the aforesaid decline but also because they largely hold to traditional family values. They are generally prolife (abortion, I think I am right in saying, is forbidden  in Islam) and families of 4 children plus are commonplace. 

Also, in Islam, they have the doctrine of Sunnah, which loosely means that adherents are meant to follow the life and behaviour and appearance of their prophet. Hence the dress code for many Muslims seems less 21st century and much more in keeping with a much earlier time period. I make this point of Sunnah because clearly Muslims are very identifiably "religious" in this age. Christians are not. So it "looks" like Christianity barely exists. 

But this doesn't really point to MORE Muslims actually meeting the demands of their religion any more than Christians do. 

Also there are other metrics worthy of note. The continent of Africa for example has enormous numbers of people both  Christians, becoming Christians, converting from Islam to Christianity and huge numbers of vocations too. 

Iran has the largest "underground" Christian Church in the world after China. The most persecuted religion in the world is Christianity. (Aid to The Church in Need) 

And new shoots of recovery (to The Faith) are seen in Ireland, Holland, America etc
And, surprisingly, there is a huge number of people turning to orthodox Christianity and Traditional Catholicism. And almost all are below the age of 25!! Who knew?!

In Russia, over 30,000 churches were built from 1990 to 2000! 

So I would say your forecast may seem correct looking at, say, London in 2024 but looking at the broader picture I don't see a smaller minority and I also don't see Islam being the major religion either. 

There's plenty left to play for! 👍 

Henry Irving said:

Rob said:

ValleyOfTears said:

Rob said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

Going to hell is surely a worthless threat if you aim it at somebody who doesn't believe. 

@ValleyOfTears. Isn’t that what conservative Christians believe though? That all unbelievers will go to hell.

I have no idea what political groups of ppl may say with regard hell. Out of love noone would ever want anyone to go there. The methods of how someone conveys this can vary greatly I grant you. 

As heartbreaking as it, if some still obstinately reject Salvation then they have made their choice. But cursing people and telling them they are going to hell, no that is not right. 

When I said ‘conservative Christians’ I didn’t mean in the political sense but rather in the Bible believing sense. In this context isn’t it a fundamental part of many (not all) Christian’s belief that all ‘unbelievers’ will go to hell when they die? Is it as black & white as that? I apologise if I appear to be belabouring this point but I’m just just trying to get it clear in my head. Thanks. 

 Very clear as he has said

"If some still obstinately reject Salvation then they have made their choice."

Which is him saying the same thing but trying to appear less agressive and, nasty than previously, having recently come off a tempory ban from Admin. 

He is trying to be charming but the underlying threat of eternal damnation is always there from these people as they struggle to comprehend that people might be moral for it's own sake, as the right, human, thing to do, rather than to avoid hell.

What is laughable is that if a person doesn't believe in heaven or hell, as something like 50% and rising of the UK population, then the threat is meaningless.

It's like telling an adult Father Christmas won't come if you're naughty.

Live the one life you have as well as you can. Be kind, do good because it's the right thing to do, not for reward or to avoid punishment in a non-existant afterlife.

Or if you want it in a Charlton context:

"Live, love, laugh and be happy"

You have free will HI. I am certainly not "trying to be charming". Charm deceives. I am not a deceiving person. Also, I, as a creature, not Creator, can damn anyone. I think you make a mistake if you think I can. This was in fact my point. We choose our destiny in this precious lifetime. 

You call it a " non existent afterlife". You are free to believe this. But I believe it to be very existent. 

 Yes live this one life well. Be kind and do good. I agree with you on all these things. But I would also add ~ repent and believe The Gospel. 

May we all meet merrily in heaven! 

Random cat from the street.