Just out of interest - if politics is not allowed to be discussed on this forum, shouldn't that also be the case for such heavy religious content? That seems far more harmful to me than talking about real world issues.
MOL: there is no verse I have found in sacred scripture that instructs me to live a life of rebellion and ignore civil authorities. He is the God of order.
I beg to differ @ValleyOfTears. Jesus himself was a rebel. He rebelled against the Roman authorities at the time and also against the Jewish leaders at that time. That’s why he was crucified by the authorities. He was a rebel. He also mixed with the marginalised at that time. Prostitutes, women, tax collectors. lepers. These were considered ‘unclean’ back then by the Jews but he well and truly bucked that trend. Incidentally, I don’t believe Jesus is ‘God’ but I do believe he lived and that he was a radical. He certainly was all for inclusion not exclusion and exclusivity. His message has been well and truly bastardised for 2000 years.
Not sure what happened to the quote above. This is what I was replying to which VOT said:
but there is no verse I have found in sacred scripture that instructs me to live a life of rebellion and ignore civil authorities. He is the God of order.
The Christian faith is a very very ( excuse the pun ) broad church . It’s made up of a myriad of traditions. Some are pretty old , the Coptics in Egypt , or the orthodox tradition. Others are pretty new comparatively- Pentecostals , faith movement etc
There is as much disagreement within the faith as there is between people of faith and atheists. @ValleyOfTears articulates a particular perspective and I might suggest gently a fairly narrow one
I came to faith in the Pentecostal tradition . It was transformative. I left a chaotic drug and crime filled life behind and went on to have a successful career family etc. By any measure it was life changing and I shall never regret my decision
That said I found the dogma of the tradition troubling. It struggled with any notion of doubt , was in those days strangely disassociated with the community it inhabited . It refused to acknowledge the complexity of it all , ethical dilemmas , and responded very poorly to challenge
35 years on im in a very different space. I am nominally part of a very inclusive non judgemental Christian community. I don’t attend church regularly, I read more from the contemplative traditions and I’m entirely comfortable with the mess , the mystery and the contradiction of it all
if I’m honest I find the certainty of our @ValleyOfTears troubling. Particularly the dogmatic theological moral certainties. From the earliest moments of the faith , people disagreed and theology has not been fixed
Notwithstanding all of the above ; I think on balance Christians have made and continue to make a great contribution to the fabric of public and community life.
Three practical contributions- Street pastors , Food Banks , Cold weather night shelters .
And ….. if @ValleyOfTears is a little dogmatic , there are quite a few on here representing the non believing section who are as dogmatic , with less good humour , and weak argument 😊
Thanks for sharing this Holyjo. Good to read your journey. Have you read Richard Rohr I wondered?
Thank you Nadou. If you follow the thread ~ I was just answering a question set by SHG twice. I was certainly not taught Christianity. I discovered faith in adulthood. I certainly gain no security by other people "thinking exactly the same way" as I do. Not at all. We all have free will and I wouldn't disregard someone or disrespect someone for not sharing my faith. Not at all.
Thank you for the Tennyson quote. I'd never heard that one before.
Of course you were taught Christianity. You didn't discover concepts such 1. God made flesh. 2. Resurrected from the dead 3. Eternally sitting at the right hand of The Father - nor were these vouchsafed to you in a personal divine revelation on some remote mountaintop, you learned them as part of the Christian doctrine, you were in-doctrinated.
And it is disingenuous of you to deny that you are proselytising when earlier you have told us that "a good Christian will do all they can to encourage every person they encounter to choose Christ and live in The Spirit not for the world and the flesh". There's no discouragement that can make you once relent your first avowed intent to make everyone else become a Pilgrim like you.
Yes, the Tennyson quote is great. He was expressing what a huge number of fellow Victorians were feeling as all the certainty provided by the Christian religion for nearly two millennia was shaken to the core by discoveries in biology and physics and archaeology etc. and they were left to deal with the big questions of life and death without the easy answer that everything that happens is all part of a deity's plan.
But, as I said, people are at liberty to believe what they please. My only argument is with those dangerous people who are so sure of their position that they are on the slippery road to intolerance or worse because they are sure that they "know" the truth and they desire everyone to think like them.
The Christian faith is a very very ( excuse the pun ) broad church . It’s made up of a myriad of traditions. Some are pretty old , the Coptics in Egypt , or the orthodox tradition. Others are pretty new comparatively- Pentecostals , faith movement etc
There is as much disagreement within the faith as there is between people of faith and atheists. @ValleyOfTears articulates a particular perspective and I might suggest gently a fairly narrow one
I came to faith in the Pentecostal tradition . It was transformative. I left a chaotic drug and crime filled life behind and went on to have a successful career family etc. By any measure it was life changing and I shall never regret my decision
That said I found the dogma of the tradition troubling. It struggled with any notion of doubt , was in those days strangely disassociated with the community it inhabited . It refused to acknowledge the complexity of it all , ethical dilemmas , and responded very poorly to challenge
35 years on im in a very different space. I am nominally part of a very inclusive non judgemental Christian community. I don’t attend church regularly, I read more from the contemplative traditions and I’m entirely comfortable with the mess , the mystery and the contradiction of it all
if I’m honest I find the certainty of our @ValleyOfTears troubling. Particularly the dogmatic theological moral certainties. From the earliest moments of the faith , people disagreed and theology has not been fixed
Notwithstanding all of the above ; I think on balance Christians have made and continue to make a great contribution to the fabric of public and community life.
Three practical contributions- Street pastors , Food Banks , Cold weather night shelters .
And ….. if @ValleyOfTears is a little dogmatic , there are quite a few on here representing the non believing section who are as dogmatic , with less good humour , and weak argument 😊
Thanks for sharing this Holyjo. Good to read your journey. Have you read Richard Rohr I wondered?
Thank you Nadou. If you follow the thread ~ I was just answering a question set by SHG twice. I was certainly not taught Christianity. I discovered faith in adulthood. I certainly gain no security by other people "thinking exactly the same way" as I do. Not at all. We all have free will and I wouldn't disregard someone or disrespect someone for not sharing my faith. Not at all.
Thank you for the Tennyson quote. I'd never heard that one before.
Of course you were taught Christianity. You didn't discover concepts such 1. God made flesh. 2. Resurrected from the dead 3. Eternally sitting at the right hand of The Father - nor were these vouchsafed to you in a personal divine revelation on some remote mountaintop, you learned them as part of the Christian doctrine, you were in-doctrinated.
And it is disingenuous of you to deny that you are proselytising when earlier you have told us that "a good Christian will do all they can to encourage every person they encounter to choose Christ and live in The Spirit not for the world and the flesh". There's no discouragement that can make you once relent your first avowed intent to make everyone else become a Pilgrim like you.
Yes, the Tennyson quote is great. He was expressing what a huge number of fellow Victorians were feeling as all the certainty provided by the Christian religion for nearly two millennia was shaken to the core by discoveries in biology and physics and archaeology etc. and they were left to deal with the big questions of life and death without the easy answer that everything that happens is all part of a deity's plan.
But, as I said, people are at liberty to believe what they please. My only argument is with those dangerous people who are so sure of their position that they are on the slippery road to intolerance or worse because they are sure that they "know" the truth and they desire everyone to think like them.
Thank you Nadou. "Taught" not in the Sunday school sense, no. I went out of my way ~ as an adult ~ to discover these things. As you say ~ we are free to believe or not to. That's ok👍
... advances in Biology, physics and archaeology ~ all great👍
Just out of interest - if politics is not allowed to be discussed on this forum, shouldn't that also be the case for such heavy religious content? That seems far more harmful to me than talking about real world issues.
It’s not what’s being discussed. It’s how it’s discussed that often seems to cause the problem.
Just out of interest - if politics is not allowed to be discussed on this forum, shouldn't that also be the case for such heavy religious content? That seems far more harmful to me than talking about real world issues.
It’s not what’s being discussed. It’s how it’s discussed that often seems to cause the problem.
If there is a god (and this really is the hugest if ifs), why is it so cripplingly insecure that it needs the constant validation of humans praying to it?
Hi Stig, "it" (!) Is neither insecure OR needy. We are! He created us. And gave us free will to reject or accept Him. THIS is true love. To give each of us the freedom to accept or reject Him and His plan for our life. It is the very fact that He IS secure and needs nothing from us that we should take great courage in presenting our many insecurities, and our neediness, our sufferings, confusions and heartbreaks and difficulties before Him. And, in so doing, discover the Life He planned for us from the very beginning. I hope and pray that you will do this and share your testimony of what He does in your life in the months and years to come. #The Adventure Of A Lifetime bro 👍
Ahh the old "free will" argument. But of course its been shown that free will in the sense that Christians use it isn't actually free will but somewhere between coercion and extortion. Free will cannot exits in a two choice situation where the consequences of one choice is a punishment (eternal damnation). Its either you believe these things and live this way or you go to hell forever. That's the same as saying "I have a gun pointed at your head, you can choose to turn around and walk away but the gun will go off". That's not free will.
And it is disingenuous of you to deny that you are proselytising when earlier you have told us that "a good Christian will do all they can to encourage every person they encounter to choose Christ and live in The Spirit not for the world and the flesh". There's no discouragement that can make you once relent your first avowed intent to make everyone else become a Pilgrim like you. [snip]
Ah, "He who would Valiant be". Very appropriate
And this thread has reminded me that there may not be dinosaurs in the bible, but there are dragons apparently (or at least in some versions, it's complicated). A girl I lived with while I was doing my PGCE was doing her PhD on something to do with the biblical representation of dragons.
Just out of interest - if politics is not allowed to be discussed on this forum, shouldn't that also be the case for such heavy religious content? That seems far more harmful to me than talking about real world issues.
It’s not what’s being discussed. It’s how it’s discussed that often seems to cause the problem.
I am pretty sure the rule on here now is no politics at all. Surely this should be applied to religion as well, especially such heavy preaching stuff, as this causes far more damage and conflict in the world than politics.
And it is disingenuous of you to deny that you are proselytising when earlier you have told us that "a good Christian will do all they can to encourage every person they encounter to choose Christ and live in The Spirit not for the world and the flesh". There's no discouragement that can make you once relent your first avowed intent to make everyone else become a Pilgrim like you. [snip]
Ah, "He who would Valiant be". Very appropriate
And this thread has reminded me that there may not be dinosaurs in the bible, but there are dragons apparently (or at least in some versions, it's complicated). A girl I lived with while I was doing my PGCE was doing her PhD on something to do with the biblical representation of dragons.
Well spotted. Perhaps a new anthem for the Covered End choir?!
Just out of interest - if politics is not allowed to be discussed on this forum, shouldn't that also be the case for such heavy religious content? That seems far more harmful to me than talking about real world issues.
It’s not what’s being discussed. It’s how it’s discussed that often seems to cause the problem.
I am pretty sure the rule on here now is no politics at all. Surely this should be applied to religion as well, especially such heavy preaching stuff, as this causes far more damage and conflict in the world than politics.
Just out of interest - if politics is not allowed to be discussed on this forum, shouldn't that also be the case for such heavy religious content? That seems far more harmful to me than talking about real world issues.
It’s not what’s being discussed. It’s how it’s discussed that often seems to cause the problem.
I am pretty sure the rule on here now is no politics at all. Surely this should be applied to religion as well, especially such heavy preaching stuff, as this causes far more damage and conflict in the world than politics.
It’s because some people can’t debate without getting personal and / or abusive. That’s what closed the HoC threads. Not the subjects.
My 5 year old son randomly came out with "how was the world made?" at breakfast this morning. Very briefly mentioned the big bang and then said some people believe a god made it. After a short pause he said "but where would they get the materials?". Made me laugh.
if i had a child and kept them isolated from others, and home schooled them, and never mentioned god or religion, I would hazard a guess that they would never form the opinion that there was an all seeing, omnipotent power that was behind everything.
My 5 year old son randomly came out with "how was the world made?" at breakfast this morning. Very briefly mentioned the big bang and then said some people believe a god made it. After a short pause he said "but where would they get the materials?". Made me laugh.
My 5 year old son randomly came out with "how was the world made?" at breakfast this morning. Very briefly mentioned the big bang and then said some people believe a god made it. After a short pause he said "but where would they get the materials?". Made me laugh.
And then everyone clapped 😉
Haha had a feeling someone may say something like that!
"If we accept evolution’s explanation of dinosaurs, we are forced to believe that death is not the result of sin."
"If we accept what evolution says about dinosaurs, then the Bible cannot be our authority. It cannot be trusted."
Can you remind us all what evolution's explanation of dinosaurs is/was? 🦕
Which bit do you want to know about? What they evolved from, what they evolved into, what happened to make so many of them extinct, did they co-exist with humans, did they exist more than 6-10k years ago?
"If we accept evolution’s explanation of dinosaurs, we are forced to believe that death is not the result of sin."
"If we accept what evolution says about dinosaurs, then the Bible cannot be our authority. It cannot be trusted."
Can you remind us all what evolution's explanation of dinosaurs is/was? 🦕
@ValleyOfTears like Rizzo I don’t quite understand what you would like an explanation for. Evolution is exactly what it sounds like. Living things evolve due to natural selection and environmental pressures. From the first single cell life to complex life forms took billions of years and is an unending ongoing process. I’m sure you didn’t need me to tell you that. Do you have a different explanation ?
"If we accept evolution’s explanation of dinosaurs, we are forced to believe that death is not the result of sin."
"If we accept what evolution says about dinosaurs, then the Bible cannot be our authority. It cannot be trusted."
Can you remind us all what evolution's explanation of dinosaurs is/was? 🦕
@ValleyOfTears like Rizzo I don’t quite understand what you would like an explanation for. Evolution is exactly what it sounds like. Living things evolve due to natural selection and environmental pressures. From the first single cell life to complex life forms took billions of years and is an unending ongoing process. I’m sure you didn’t need me to tell you that. Do you have a different explanation ?
Not sure if this thread has anything to do with Danson Park, as have only opened it at this final page. Just got back with the dog, and was greeted by a 40 foot dinosaur when coming out of the woods. My god, thought I really need to lighten up on my beer intake. As for the dog, he just cocked his leg up the side of it and carried on as usual.
Comments
but there is no verse I have found in sacred scripture that instructs me to live a life of rebellion and ignore civil authorities. He is the God of order.
2. Resurrected from the dead 3. Eternally sitting at the right hand of The Father - nor were these vouchsafed to you in a personal divine revelation on some remote mountaintop, you learned them as part of the Christian doctrine, you were in-doctrinated.
And it is disingenuous of you to deny that you are proselytising when earlier you have told us that "a good Christian will do all they can to encourage every person they encounter to choose Christ and live in The Spirit not for the world and the flesh". There's no discouragement that can make you once relent your first avowed intent to make everyone else become a Pilgrim like you.
Yes, the Tennyson quote is great. He was expressing what a huge number of fellow Victorians were feeling as all the certainty provided by the Christian religion for nearly two millennia was shaken to the core by discoveries in biology and physics and archaeology etc. and they were left to deal with the big questions of life and death without the easy answer that everything that happens is all part of a deity's plan.
But, as I said, people are at liberty to believe what they please. My only argument is with those dangerous people who are so sure of their position that they are on the slippery road to intolerance or worse because they are sure that they "know" the truth and they desire everyone to think like them.
... advances in Biology, physics and archaeology ~ all great👍
I am pretty sure the rule on here now is no politics at all. Surely this should be applied to religion as well, especially such heavy preaching stuff, as this causes far more damage and conflict in the world than politics.
Just got back with the dog, and was greeted by a 40 foot dinosaur when coming out of the woods.
My god, thought I really need to lighten up on my beer intake.
As for the dog, he just cocked his leg up the side of it and carried on as usual.