So, basically, it looks like travel to/from Wembley won't be impossible after all - with the Jubilee line running and (albeit with delays) the Metropolitan too?
It's always struck me that either Crowe and co. are the worst negotiators in the history of empoyee/employer relations, or the LU is the most dishonest and stupid employer ever.
I say this because every year the RMT negotiate something new, and every year (sometime more than once) they have to strike. So do the LU lie to the RMT about the deals, knowing the RMT will strike at the drop of a hat? Or do the RMT just negotiate terrible deals that they then have to renegotiate in the future?
[cite]Posted By: randy andy[/cite]It's always struck me that either Crowe and co. are the worst negotiators in the history of empoyee/employer relations, or the LU is the most dishonest and stupid employer ever.
I say this because every year the RMT negotiate something new, and every year (sometime more than once) they have to strike. So do the LU lie to the RMT about the deals, knowing the RMT will strike at the drop of a hat? Or do the RMT just negotiate terrible deals that they then have to renegotiate in the future?
LOL - i think its probably a bit of both!
TBH, I've sat in pay negotiations where we (the TU side) have spent hours poring over spine points, progressions, matrices and all sorts of other shite, then finally come to an agreement, recommended it to members and got it through - only for the management side to plead poverty halfway through the year and renege on half the elements of the deal. By the same rationale, I've also sat on the other side of the fence, where the TU side give every impression of being willing to negotiate but are, in fact, already prepared to strike having got a mandate from their membership to do so - making the negotiation completely moot. Negotiations should be just that - negotiations. Both sides should try to work at a solution to achieve a common aim (keeping a service running whilst ensuring people are remunerated accordingly for doing so).
The reason the RMT are such a disgrace is that their demands in this current economic climate are outrageous. They want a pay rise far, far in excess of what almost every other person will get over the next three years, have a membership where the most public facing members (tube drivers) do f*** all for a living and already get paid handsomely for it, are fighting a ridiculous battle over the reinstatement of two staff members who were sacked for gross misconduct and theft and are only striking because they know they have the Underground over a barrel.
I know there are plenty of staff working for TFL who are RMT members who are poorly paid. Why aren't they negotiating a pay deal which bumps their rates up by, say, 10%, whilst tube driver's pay is frozen? This would bring their jobs closer to the salary levels that tube drivers enjoy - surely the biggest concern for any Trade Union should be the lowest-paid amongst their membership? When I negotiated pay deals we regularly ensured that those in the lowest quartile received the highest pro-rata rises - often at the expense of people further up the pay scales. Why aren't the RMT using their not inconsiderable negotiating muscle to do this? because they know full well that industrial action by backroom staff at TFL wouldn't have a 100th of the impact a strike by tube drivers does.
If they had any legitimate arguments, then people would see that. The fact that they haven't, and still bring misery to millions of people stinks. Plain and simple.
well a union is made up of it's members, and presumably the members either get involved with changing things in their union, resign from it, or put up and shut up.
Reminds me of Red Robbo at BL in the '70's. His membership outed him in the end.
But if the majority of RMT membership must think Crowe is doing OK at present after all the battle every issue and their pay dosnt sound that bad if we can believe what the Metro says.
Just as an aside, are Barclays staff going to take any action over the loss of their pension scheme? Something well worth fighting for I would have thought.
Posted By: Les Addicks Posted By: T Accept where you're coming from Sideways but the simple case with C&G is that they'd all be made redundant as the company isn't profitable and is privately owned.
The public sector workers seem to get away with murder thanks to a strong union and an endless supply of taxpayers money to back up if anything goes wrong (that said so have C&G!) it rankles so much that where private sector workers bend over backwards some people in the public sector refuse to work 5 minutes with out being paid.
Not sure what direct experience you have of working in the public sector (none if I had to guess...) but you could not be more wrong. Unison is p##s poor, there is NO endless pot of money for the vast majority of the public sector and many, many people, myself included, work longer than our contracted hours every week in order to get the job done. Try telling that to my old mum who's ruined her health, used to get in at least an hour every day to get the job done (without pay) and was then subject to daily abuse from the Great British unwashed all for not much more than minimum wage. Then when she ended up with a DVT & was promptly laid off after 20 odd years. Note -notretired on a wacking pension, effectviely sacked as she couldn't work to the same level any more.
You might guess I get really wound up when people generalise like you've been doing as there are good, bad and indifferent employees in ALL sectors yet you rarely hear someone saying that everybody in insurance is rubbish or that every retail worker deserves the sack.
Haven't you heard...I'm public sector and therefore part of a huge gravy train and should therefore be stoned! ;-)
I'll pack-up now and return to my mansion, driving home in a Bentley of course. Don't anyone try and come round to my place or I'll release the hounds! :-)
You seem to have missed what i was trying to say. I wasn't sugguesting for one second you were on the gravy train, my point about taxpayers money was that if something goes wrong the shortfall/loss is covered by the tax payer. Would the government let the LU, the NHS, the education system go bust have a load of people lose their jobs and alow the actual system to cease to exist? If if for example i was to strike alongside my colleagues over pay in my private sector company there is no person willing to underwrite the loss caused by my actions, should it be enough of a loss that the company i work for went bust there would be no taxpayer saftey net to prop up the business and secure my job.
My wife is a public sector worker and i hear some horror stories of some of her staff, where if they worked in the private sector would be sacked for some of the stunts they pull, they're able to get away with it as simply the fear of the union and the individual to cause havoc. My sister is a teacher and i know several people in medicine so i know full well that many public sector workers are hard working consiencious people which is why i put 'some' public sector workers are unwilling to work an extra 5 minutes (in reaction to an above poster)... thats the problem with you public sector lot, no attention to detail :-)
[quote][cite]Posted By: Addick Addict[/cite][quote aria-level=0 aria-posinset=0 aria-setsize=0][cite aria-level=0 aria-posinset=0 aria-setsize=0]Posted By: leftbehind[/cite][quote aria-level=0 aria-posinset=0 aria-setsize=0][cite aria-level=0 aria-posinset=0 aria-setsize=0]Posted By: Friend Or Defoe[/cite]Absolute chaos in London today, and I don't even use the tube![/quote]
Got to work fine in fact very nice stroll through St James park
Then hit with a mass picket line at St James Park Tube so many people just like the miners strike police everywhere.
OK there were just 2 RMT people there LOL[/quote]
Give over the rest are still in bed.
Does anyone really expect RMT workers to be showing their face to Joe Public (including the likes of Nurses trying to get to work in London)?[/quote]
I remember doing a NUR (Jimmy Knapp) strike in the late 80's. Me and a couple of mates decided not to do a picket line, and go down to Dreamland. When we got there, it was empty other than about 100 people, most of them were other strikers having a fun day out!!
I am printing a picture of Bob Crowe on some sticky labels, with the caption "Bob Crow sucks fat ones" and I will be sticking them furtively but visibly on tube trains for the next few days. Millwall 2@.
And the worst thing for Crow is that ASLEF aren't supporting him this time, and Keith Norman has whipped the legs from the strike by getting his members to go into work.
Not sure how long the hard left will control RMT now
[cite]Posted By: leftbehind[/cite]Been at a station today from 7.00am to help give info out to people direction bus services and what lines are running
11 people thanking us for coming in a doing what we can etc
3 slatting Bob the wank Crow
1 said i should be ashamed LOL
Spoke to staff there all RMT none agree with the strike and 3 leaving the RMT.
One said how can we complain about pay with what we get, the free travel and hoilday entitlement.
I was expecting nothing but abuse but the public were great
Do you feel that the strike action has weakend the RMT and Bob Crow
i heard on the Radio this morning that 1 in 5 took strike action and that ASLEF refused to strike ballot, The public have got too work the footie was still played and they havent got their demands.
Crow on the Radio this morning,
" The Game shouldnt have been played as it was going to be a non entity anyway"
who the feck does this man think he is Adrian Bloody Durham
It has weakend him hopefully what was said to me from station staff will be echoed elsewere Thats the complete oppisite to the text he sent his members yesterday morning.
Ill be in a induction day tomorrow listening to the unions speak that should be a laugh
On Channel 4 news last night when questioned as to weather he planed to strike during the Olympics, he failed to give an answer. I don't want to put 2 and 2 together but that doesn't sound good!
[cite]Posted By: Friend Or Defoe[/cite]On Channel 4 news last night when questioned as to weather he planed to strike during the Olympics, he failed to give an answer. I don't want to put 2 and 2 together but that doesn't sound good!
I must admit that i dont have a problem with anyone striking if they feel it needs be.
However should they do it when our country is the show piece to the world to get attention i would have very little sympathy
[cite]Posted By: Friend Or Defoe[/cite]On Channel 4 news last night when questioned as to weather he planed to strike during the Olympics, he failed to give an answer. I don't want to put 2 and 2 together but that doesn't sound good!
The correct answer would have been "I would hope we won't need to strike again. We don't want to strike, we understand the problems it causes for people. So it is really down to LU, will they treat us fairly and not force us to stand up for our rights".
But I doubt he could say that with a straight face, You just know somewhere he has a calendar with all the most awkward dates to have a strike circled in red and 2012 has a couple of whole months marked.
Comments
I say this because every year the RMT negotiate something new, and every year (sometime more than once) they have to strike. So do the LU lie to the RMT about the deals, knowing the RMT will strike at the drop of a hat? Or do the RMT just negotiate terrible deals that they then have to renegotiate in the future?
while the other unions stay and talk
while the other unions stay and talk[/quote]
Not according to Crowe who said they were talking and the management walked out.
Bet the fact that he was beaten to it was a bit of a shock to Crowe.
TBH, I've sat in pay negotiations where we (the TU side) have spent hours poring over spine points, progressions, matrices and all sorts of other shite, then finally come to an agreement, recommended it to members and got it through - only for the management side to plead poverty halfway through the year and renege on half the elements of the deal. By the same rationale, I've also sat on the other side of the fence, where the TU side give every impression of being willing to negotiate but are, in fact, already prepared to strike having got a mandate from their membership to do so - making the negotiation completely moot. Negotiations should be just that - negotiations. Both sides should try to work at a solution to achieve a common aim (keeping a service running whilst ensuring people are remunerated accordingly for doing so).
The reason the RMT are such a disgrace is that their demands in this current economic climate are outrageous. They want a pay rise far, far in excess of what almost every other person will get over the next three years, have a membership where the most public facing members (tube drivers) do f*** all for a living and already get paid handsomely for it, are fighting a ridiculous battle over the reinstatement of two staff members who were sacked for gross misconduct and theft and are only striking because they know they have the Underground over a barrel.
I know there are plenty of staff working for TFL who are RMT members who are poorly paid. Why aren't they negotiating a pay deal which bumps their rates up by, say, 10%, whilst tube driver's pay is frozen? This would bring their jobs closer to the salary levels that tube drivers enjoy - surely the biggest concern for any Trade Union should be the lowest-paid amongst their membership? When I negotiated pay deals we regularly ensured that those in the lowest quartile received the highest pro-rata rises - often at the expense of people further up the pay scales. Why aren't the RMT using their not inconsiderable negotiating muscle to do this? because they know full well that industrial action by backroom staff at TFL wouldn't have a 100th of the impact a strike by tube drivers does.
If they had any legitimate arguments, then people would see that. The fact that they haven't, and still bring misery to millions of people stinks. Plain and simple.
But if the majority of RMT membership must think Crowe is doing OK at present after all the battle every issue and their pay dosnt sound that bad if we can believe what the Metro says.
Just as an aside, are Barclays staff going to take any action over the loss of their pension scheme? Something well worth fighting for I would have thought.
My wife is a public sector worker and i hear some horror stories of some of her staff, where if they worked in the private sector would be sacked for some of the stunts they pull, they're able to get away with it as simply the fear of the union and the individual to cause havoc. My sister is a teacher and i know several people in medicine so i know full well that many public sector workers are hard working consiencious people which is why i put 'some' public sector workers are unwilling to work an extra 5 minutes (in reaction to an above poster)... thats the problem with you public sector lot, no attention to detail :-)
Got to work fine in fact very nice stroll through St James park
Then hit with a mass picket line at St James Park Tube so many people just like the miners strike police everywhere.
OK there were just 2 RMT people there LOL[/quote]
Give over the rest are still in bed.
Does anyone really expect RMT workers to be showing their face to Joe Public (including the likes of Nurses trying to get to work in London)?[/quote]
I remember doing a NUR (Jimmy Knapp) strike in the late 80's. Me and a couple of mates decided not to do a picket line, and go down to Dreamland.
When we got there, it was empty other than about 100 people, most of them were other strikers having a fun day out!!
Not sure how long the hard left will control RMT now
Well done all involved from TfL staff to the fans who made it
11 people thanking us for coming in a doing what we can etc
3 slatting Bob the wank Crow
1 said i should be ashamed LOL
Spoke to staff there all RMT none agree with the strike and 3 leaving the RMT.
One said how can we complain about pay with what we get, the free travel and hoilday entitlement.
I was expecting nothing but abuse but the public were great
Do you feel that the strike action has weakend the RMT and Bob Crow
i heard on the Radio this morning that 1 in 5 took strike action and that ASLEF refused to strike ballot, The public have got too work the footie was still played and they havent got their demands.
Crow on the Radio this morning,
" The Game shouldnt have been played as it was going to be a non entity anyway"
who the feck does this man think he is Adrian Bloody Durham
Thats the complete oppisite to the text he sent his members yesterday morning.
Ill be in a induction day tomorrow listening to the unions speak that should be a laugh
1 nil to Boris i reckon
He did B on Radio London this morning when they asked him his thoughts on the efforts put in by those in the RMT to try to help and get the fans home,
He said the game against Andorra shoudlnt have been played, called the game a non entity and a farce.
I must admit that i dont have a problem with anyone striking if they feel it needs be.
However should they do it when our country is the show piece to the world to get attention i would have very little sympathy
The correct answer would have been "I would hope we won't need to strike again. We don't want to strike, we understand the problems it causes for people. So it is really down to LU, will they treat us fairly and not force us to stand up for our rights".
But I doubt he could say that with a straight face, You just know somewhere he has a calendar with all the most awkward dates to have a strike circled in red and 2012 has a couple of whole months marked.