[cite]Posted By: uncle[/cite]BFR i would like to know what you think i would gain by making up such rumours, also lets just assume i'm not lying, would you really expect Parky to openly admit he didn't know what to do with a player? Doesn't really make his CV look to good does it? Yes Barn Door Varney i was in a pretty good posistion to know and there was a very good reason why i never said anything at the time altough i told a few close friends. We was pushing for a place to get out of this league and that getting out to the other players could have caused dressing room upset at a time it really wasn't needed. It makes no difference to me if people believe it or not, Its just people kept asking why so now they have been told they can make of it what they will.
Calm down Uncle...I'm merely pointing out that we haven't heard Parky's take on this and anyone attending the BA meeting can grill him about it and report back here, that is they get past questions on pot-holes and what his favourite sock colour is.
But as this is Charlton Life, why bother to keep an open mind or seek the other side of an argument?
Much more fun if we accept any/all rumours as fact.
And I wouldn't worry too much about any dressing room upset - most players won't give a damn as long as they aren't the ones getting dropped.
[cite]Posted By: Dave Rudd[/cite]I think we might be confusing a few points.
As uncle says "why would he make up such rumours?". That leads me to think that Parkinson may well have said what was reported.
But that doesn't mean that Parkinson actually believed it. Managers often say things to players to avoid unpleasant or difficult truths or to put unpopular decisions in a more favourable light.
In the same way, Liverpool may well have 'promised' Shelvey 20 games this season. Now, forgive me .. but until I see the spreadsheet with every guaranteed Liverpool line-up between August 2010 and May 2011, I remain sceptical thatanyplayer can be 'promised' a certain number of games. Football managers just don't do that.
Liverpool may well intend or expect Shelvey to play 20 games ... but that's a whole world away from 'promising'. If the guarantee is in Shelvey's contract, I'd expect there to be a follow-up clause along the lines of "In the unlikely event that this guarantee is not fulfilled, Liverpool FC undertake to pay a 'disappointment bonus' of £XXX" or something like that. In other words, some kind of get-out.
Once again Dave you have shown a calm, considered and totally sensible opinion.......
Personally i think there are grains of truth in this and not doubting that he may have said that to Shelvey but i think the reality is that he didn't fit into the team and we were weaker when he was in it in my opinion. That's not to say he isn't and won't be a good player but i don't think he was strong enough physically to play the position that he will end up playing - centre midfield, and therefore we were always accomodating him to the detriment of the side. I think it will be a couple of years before he holds down a first team place anywhere because of this and Liverpool have bought potential.
how anyone can say we were weaker with JJ in the team is beyond me. I understand what Parkinson meant... I think! Basically the other players were not good enough to click with shelvey's very footballing and fast paced mind.
we were weaker with JJ in the team - we put him back in around December / January time last year and things started to go pear shaped. I understand about all this not reading passes and stuff and yes there is of course some truth to this but a great player will always improve your side but i don't think he did.
[cite]Posted By: Dazzler21[/cite]how anyone can say we were weaker with JJ in the team is beyond me. I understand what Parkinson meant... I think! Basically the other players were not good enough to click with shelvey's very footballing and fast paced mind.
Something that I have occasionally noticed in Martin this season.
point is, in my opinion we were weaker when accomodating him in the team. Thought we were showcasing him in the window and was surprised when he wasn't sold in it although i don't think he played too well in that period. He was dropped again soon after it closed from memory. I have no gripe against him and certainly aren't as crystal as you on exact games.
yeah, don't waste your breath mate it ain't worth it.
It comes down to poor management at either playing level or board level.
Surely we keep our best players and find a system to accomodate them rather than accomodating the less able players.....otherwise you end up with a team of less able players and wont sign any better players as they wont fit in.
[quote][cite]Posted By: RodneyCharltonTrotta[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: uncle[/cite]I cant be arsed[/quote]
yeah, don't waste your breath mate it ain't worth it.[/quote]
It comes down to poor management at either playing level or board level.
Surely we keep our best players and find a system to accomodate them rather than accomodating the less able players.....otherwise you end up with a team of less able players and wont sign any better players as they wont fit in.[/quote]
Or it could just be that the whole management and coaching set up realised that he may well have the potential to be a good player in a few years time but he wasn't cutting it in League 1 which is what we need right now. That is how i see it - if anybody wants to get the hump about it, so be it - that's there problem.
I dont have any faith in judgement of the manager or the board BD so that's why i question the episode. If it was Alex Ferguson getting rid of his best player as it was affecting the harmony of the team i'd say fair play but it's not and i dont buy it.
JJ ran the game at orient away last season, netted against Wycombe away (in a poor poor game) and then all of a sudden was frozen out after having no worse a spell than any other player.....and the team didnt exactly improve with his exclusion.
Same with Wagstaff this season...absolute stormer at orient this term and a real prospect last year but is struggling to get a look in now.
If it is really true that he couldn't get in a very average Charlton side because he was too good, that's the most ridiculous thing I've heard since we had to put up with Pardew's pathetic post-match excuses. In fact, wouldn't be surprised if Pardew used that one himself at some point ("We were just too good out there today to pick up the points against an inferior side who were on a different wavelength to us'').
I've largely stayed clear of the Shelvey debate since last year when I dared to suggest that the young man must be ''frustrated'' by not playing, I got told by the usual suspects that I was talking rubbish and he was perfectly content to wait patiently for his chance.
It now transpires that chance wasn't at Charlton because he was too good???
[quote][cite]Posted By: RodneyCharltonTrotta[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: uncle[/cite]I cant be arsed[/quote]
yeah, don't waste your breath mate it ain't worth it.[/quote]
It comes down to poor management at either playing level or board level.
Surely we keep our best players and find a system to accomodate them rather than accomodating the less able players.....otherwise you end up with a team of less able players and wont sign any better players as they wont fit in.[/quote]
Actually one of Curbs's biggest failures (according to people who played at the time) was that he always played the system he wanted and brought players to fit into it. Then he decided to buy Danny Murphy and changed the teams style to fit round the player. That was when things started to slide for him.
tell me why wagstaff was dropped answer to accomodate Benson.
is it the right decision who knows
why was Solly dropped to answer to accomodate Francis
right decision from what i have seen so far No will it work who knows none ofd us yet
was droppng Shelvey the right decision imo no as we didnt go up because we failed to win enough games could shelvey have won us those games imo yes if played in either CM or in a free role behind a striker and coached and encouraged couragous attacking play instead we asked Jonjo to do a job un natural to him
Was telling him that he couldnt fit him into the team because he was seeing things others were not, ( not my words but those of the people who were in the meeting)
No it was not right does it show poor coaching and mgmt Yes it does
Jonjo going the right decision financially for us yes it was it secured a stay of execution for us
right for Jonjo yes because what was he going to learn and from what i have seen he is a better player for it
Right for Charlton FC last season No
Right for the fans No
Did Parky try to accomodate players last season yes IMO he did and it didnt work should we have looked top change our set up and formation to accomodate Jonjo yes we should
should we be changing tactics and formaton to accomodate waggy , martin and benson your damn right we should or we wilol have learned nothing from last season
For what it's worth I'd go along with the notion that Parky didn't know how to use Jonjo. Whenever he did use him it was behind a lone striker and I don't recall him ever being used as a CM in a 4-4-2 which I think is his best and preferred(?) position.
As for building your side around your best player - our best showing in modern history was when we built the team around Parker. Curbs tried it again with Murphy and to some extent it did work (we won the first five games and kept pace with leaders Chelsea). Murphy's individual form took a dip when he didn't get picked for England and I think that led to him concluding that it was because we weren't a big enough club for his international aspirations and then his eventual exit. If Spurs had won the first five games with Murphy in the midfield we all know he'd have been nailed on to be picked for England.
Back to Parky - he ought to have built the side around Jonjo, with Racon as his 'understudy' for when/if Jonjo got injured. He moaned about a lack of options with his strikers but the one option he had of playing Jonjo in CM regularly wasn't explored!
Comments
Good luck to the kid i hope he goes onto great things but he is the past as far as charlton are concerned
I asked 2 of the other people that were there and neither of them was uncle
I think a lot of this thread is about Parkinson, not Shelvey.
Or is that who you meant?
Calm down Uncle...I'm merely pointing out that we haven't heard Parky's take on this and anyone attending the BA meeting can grill him about it and report back here, that is they get past questions on pot-holes and what his favourite sock colour is.
But as this is Charlton Life, why bother to keep an open mind or seek the other side of an argument?
Much more fun if we accept any/all rumours as fact.
And I wouldn't worry too much about any dressing room upset - most players won't give a damn as long as they aren't the ones getting dropped.
Once again Dave you have shown a calm, considered and totally sensible opinion.......
which has no place on this message board ;-)
Something that I have occasionally noticed in Martin this season.
Not saying coaching can't improve things. There were definitely times we could have used him more. But it's surely not as simple as a bit of coaching.
yeah, don't waste your breath mate it ain't worth it.
It comes down to poor management at either playing level or board level.
Surely we keep our best players and find a system to accomodate them rather than accomodating the less able players.....otherwise you end up with a team of less able players and wont sign any better players as they wont fit in.
yeah, don't waste your breath mate it ain't worth it.[/quote]
It comes down to poor management at either playing level or board level.
Surely we keep our best players and find a system to accomodate them rather than accomodating the less able players.....otherwise you end up with a team of less able players and wont sign any better players as they wont fit in.[/quote]
Or it could just be that the whole management and coaching set up realised that he may well have the potential to be a good player in a few years time but he wasn't cutting it in League 1 which is what we need right now. That is how i see it - if anybody wants to get the hump about it, so be it - that's there problem.
JJ ran the game at orient away last season, netted against Wycombe away (in a poor poor game) and then all of a sudden was frozen out after having no worse a spell than any other player.....and the team didnt exactly improve with his exclusion.
Same with Wagstaff this season...absolute stormer at orient this term and a real prospect last year but is struggling to get a look in now.
Dont understand it.
If it is really true that he couldn't get in a very average Charlton side because he was too good, that's the most ridiculous thing I've heard since we had to put up with Pardew's pathetic post-match excuses. In fact, wouldn't be surprised if Pardew used that one himself at some point ("We were just too good out there today to pick up the points against an inferior side who were on a different wavelength to us'').
I've largely stayed clear of the Shelvey debate since last year when I dared to suggest that the young man must be ''frustrated'' by not playing, I got told by the usual suspects that I was talking rubbish and he was perfectly content to wait patiently for his chance.
It now transpires that chance wasn't at Charlton because he was too good???
Last season it was JJ this season it's Solly and Wagstaff.
As to the qustion "does it matter" yes it does because it goes diretly to the credabilty of the manager.
"Trust in Parky"? You're having a laugh!!
yeah, don't waste your breath mate it ain't worth it.[/quote]
It comes down to poor management at either playing level or board level.
Surely we keep our best players and find a system to accomodate them rather than accomodating the less able players.....otherwise you end up with a team of less able players and wont sign any better players as they wont fit in.[/quote]
Actually one of Curbs's biggest failures (according to people who played at the time) was that he always played the system he wanted and brought players to fit into it. Then he decided to buy Danny Murphy and changed the teams style to fit round the player. That was when things started to slide for him.
tell me why wagstaff was dropped answer to accomodate Benson.
is it the right decision who knows
why was Solly dropped to answer to accomodate Francis
right decision from what i have seen so far No will it work who knows none ofd us yet
was droppng Shelvey the right decision imo no as we didnt go up because we failed to win enough games could shelvey have won us those games imo yes if played in either CM or in a free role behind a striker and coached and encouraged couragous attacking play instead we asked Jonjo to do a job un natural to him
Was telling him that he couldnt fit him into the team because he was seeing things others were not, ( not my words but those of the people who were in the meeting)
No it was not right does it show poor coaching and mgmt Yes it does
Jonjo going the right decision financially for us yes it was it secured a stay of execution for us
right for Jonjo yes because what was he going to learn and from what i have seen he is a better player for it
Right for Charlton FC last season No
Right for the fans No
Did Parky try to accomodate players last season yes IMO he did and it didnt work should we have looked top change our set up and formation to accomodate Jonjo yes we should
should we be changing tactics and formaton to accomodate waggy , martin and benson your damn right we should or we wilol have learned nothing from last season
Perhaps it's because he's too good?
Either way, I do hope he's not getting frustrated!
As for building your side around your best player - our best showing in modern history was when we built the team around Parker. Curbs tried it again with Murphy and to some extent it did work (we won the first five games and kept pace with leaders Chelsea). Murphy's individual form took a dip when he didn't get picked for England and I think that led to him concluding that it was because we weren't a big enough club for his international aspirations and then his eventual exit. If Spurs had won the first five games with Murphy in the midfield we all know he'd have been nailed on to be picked for England.
Back to Parky - he ought to have built the side around Jonjo, with Racon as his 'understudy' for when/if Jonjo got injured. He moaned about a lack of options with his strikers but the one option he had of playing Jonjo in CM regularly wasn't explored!