Reading this has confirmed what I've always thought about Parky. I saw Simonson in the eighties and I saw Jonjo on five or six occasions. It was easy to see that Simmo was on a different level. Jonjo was different, it was obvious that he has huge potential and will go on to be a fantastic player, but whenever I saw him he integrated into the team very nicely and rarely misplaced a pass. To say that he was too good to play in the team was just bullsh*t, and a feeble excuse in an attempt to justify the decision to exclude him. So he wasn't too good in the first six games which of course we won, but when we really needed him a few months later, he had suddenly improved to an extent that he was on a different wavelength to all the other players?
For whatever reason we didn't use Jonjo, if Parky couldn't work out how to get the best out of him and we played worse as a result, then he was correct not to pick him. If true that obviously casts some doubts on Parky's ability as a manger but since we're all speculating massively here it's all guesswork anyway.
Also with the whole not playing JJ fiasco, it's not that we would see him on the pitch as too good either, as many fans just see the fact that he's passed the ball and the plays broken down. Sitting in the NL, many people were booing or getting frustrated with him more than I thought necessary. I would imagine then that this would have wrecked his confidence both in himself and in the fans, so in a way I can see why Parky said he was too good for us, as in the eyes of the fans all they see is a 'misplaced' passs, and not players failing to read the pass.
[cite]Posted By: dabos[/cite]For whatever reason we didn't use Jonjo, if Parky couldn't work out how to get the best out of him and we played worse as a result, then he was correct not to pick him. If true that obviously casts some doubts on Parky's ability as a manger but since we're all speculating massively here it's all guesswork anyway.
jj played the started the opening games of the season and was out of the side after our victory over huddersfield on 16th october when we were sitting at the top of the league.
bailey was an ever present up until we drew at home to jill on 20th may and we were 3rd with 9 games to play.
now with no bailey in the side this would have been a great opportunity to let our best player shine in the middle and i think parky missed a trick here and don't really get the logic behind his reasoning.
i felt we played worse with bailey and jj together in the side,like gerrard and lampard for england.
I think Parky probably didn't rate or trust Jonjo's defensive side of his game to play him in CM of a 4-4-2. He used him behind Burton and on the left, both positions he let him play with freedom, something he wouldn't have had as much of in CM.
I think Parky was also trying to fit Bailey in the team, he was captain and there was always a chance of him coming up with a goal. Then we also had Reid who when fit would usually play.
Parky wasn't the sort of manager to try a midfield of Sam Shelvey Semedo Reid, on a good day they'd have been great to watch, on a bad day they'd struggle against a decent side. That would have also meant leaving out his captain in Bailey. By then Parky preferred 4-4-2 so I think he just couldn't find a way to fit Shelvey into a 4-4-2.
The he's too good excuse was probably only part of it, might be true to an extent but there were still games we could have used him from the bench. Games like Stockport at home we could have tried him in CM in a 4-4-2.
Perhaps Parky didn't want to give Jonjo a go in CM against weaker sides knowing he'd probably drop him for more defensively reliable players for the the games against the stronger sides.
All just speculation, I'm sure Parky had a few reasons but we'll probably never know them all.
[cite]Posted By: Scoham[/cite]I think Parky probably didn't rate or trust Jonjo's defensive side of his game to play him in CM of a 4-4-2. He used him behind Burton and on the left, both positions he let him play with freedom, something he wouldn't have had as much of in CM.
I think Parky was also trying to fit Bailey in the team, he was captain and there was always a chance of him coming up with a goal. Then we also had Reid who when fit would usually play.
Parky wasn't the sort of manager to try a midfield of Sam Shelvey Semedo Reid, on a good day they'd have been great to watch, on a bad day they'd struggle against a decent side. That would have also meant leaving out his captain in Bailey. By then Parky preferred 4-4-2 so I think he just couldn't find a way to fit Shelvey into a 4-4-2.
The he's too good excuse was probably only part of it, might be true to an extent but there were still games we could have used him from the bench. Games like Stockport at home we could have tried him in CM in a 4-4-2.
Perhaps Parky didn't want to give Jonjo a go in CM against weaker sides knowing he'd probably drop him for more defensively reliable players for the the games against the stronger sides.
All just speculation, I'm sure Parky had a few reasons but we'll probably never know them all.
[cite]Posted By: dansmudge[/cite]Far too sensible and well thought out a post.
[cite]Posted By: Weegie Addick[/cite]Thanks for that, Scoham - makes a lot of sense to me (unlike a lot on this thread).
Scoham always makes sense to me. However we surely have to accept that on this topic Uncle starts with a huge advantage when it comes to knowing what went on, and what he writes troubles me. You could say his view is coloured by the fact that he is a (rightly) proud relative. Against that, he has no axe to grind, Jonjo has gone to a great club, and Uncle isnt even a Charlton fan. His views are obviously both heartfelt and based on what the boy himself has said. We ignore them at our peril.
But I'd also like to know more about two things. Firstly I'd like to know what effect the boo-boys had on Parky's thinking. I had a big row with Airman Brown on Glynne's list about this, so dont be surprised if he pops up to comment here, but; while we have always had idiots booing players, I can't ever remember them booing a player who was both outstandingly gifted and obviously committed. If building a League One team around an 18 year old is risky - and it is- then that risk is increased when you have a section of the crowd who are impatient (that's a polite word). Secondly, what pressure was there from the Board to protect Jonjo as a saleable asset? If there was, i wouldn't entirely blame them, but its more pressure on Parky that helps to explain his decisions. I'm not anti-Parky at all, unlike NLA, but his handling of Jonjo is the one big question mark I have over him. I would like to believe it's misplaced.
I even think had he been played enough the advice being given to him from his hugely influential father and his agent was to stay with us and if needed to extend his contract as there was no rush to move.
[cite]Posted By: nth london addick[/cite]Me anti parky never.
Sad thing is jonjo wanted to stay and play .
I even think had he been played enough the advice being given to him from his hugely influential father and his agent was to stay with us and if needed to extend his contract as there was no rush to move.
I have very little doubt that Jonjo was pushed out of the club, but not because he was not wanted but because we needed the money. Jonjo's selling would have been a board decision regardless of Parkies wishes.
I could understand and live with that point and i would applaud it, so wold Jonjo and his family shame thats not what he or they were told.
but we are just rehashing the same thing so i am in the camp that he is gone, he is improving and he has the world at his feet and now must we move on.
Doesnt stop me believing what i have been told and i have no reason to doubt those that told me, they have nothing to gain from it so why make it up
i just think their's a lot of tosh being talked on this thread. If he was as good as some people are making out he would have stood out and bossed games. He didn't. He had the odd flashes where you could see what the fuss was about be he also had a fair few shockers. When Bowyer came into the team at 17 he was instantly effective. Shelvey has potential in my opinion and i thought we had a good deal from Liverpool given our current situation.
[cite]Posted By: Bexley Dan[/cite] If he was as good as some people are making out he would have stood out and bossed games.
funny how people see things is it.
Kenny Dalglish and the other night Sir Trevor Brooking seemed to think that Jonjo Is one of the the best young English players out there
good job you aint a liverpool scout or anything to do with England
and how a kid who has represented England at every level so far and stood head and shoulders above them had only the Odd flashes in your eyes is beyond me.
Parker had to get in front of far better players than we have now and yes, Shelvey is obviously a talent and no, he didn't boss games and yes, he did only have flashes. Not saying Parky and Pardew have been good for us but lets face it they and they're coaching staff would be far better placed than you to know of his effectiveness and neither of them made him a mainstay in the Charlton side.
But Christian Dailly also waxed lyrical about his admiration for Parky during the Q&A session at the Valley during the week. So, he obviously didn't see any problems with the way Parky treated JJ. We may never know the truth about what his real reasons were (as opposed to what he said).
If i hadn't been told he was great in the reserves / academy and all that i wouldn't have really batted an eyelid based on what he did in the first team. Obviously he has potential if he's been through all the england youth ages and if he was the finished article he' d have cost a lot more. I've never said he won't be good. I said he wasn't outstanding for us and can see why he was dropped.
[cite]Posted By: Bexley Dan[/cite]said he wasn't outstanding for us and can see why he was dropped.
Look, I didnt expect him to start all 46 games, and I certainly didnt expect him to "boss" any of them. Name me an 18 year old you saw in this league bossing anything. Although its funny that at least two of the games I saw live (cos I dont see that many) he had a major impact (Brentford and Swindon home league). I would have hoped he'd be rested, and taken out of the limelight from time to time. But not played at all in the second half of the season, not even on the bench?
Of course, one other problem is that we dont have a reserve team, so once dropped, Jonjo had little chance to work on whatever it ws that parky wasnt happy with, or to show that he was ready for CM.
I must agree with some of the comments about jj above. I have not seen him do a lot in a charlton shirt, an undoubted talent indeed, but bowyer came in and set the team and to some extent the division alight at a similar age, as did paul walsh, different types of players I guess. He stands out at u19 level as a prodigious talent and I hope he continues to improve and one day take gerrards place in the middle for pool. But I can say that he did not do a lot for us and can understand that the thrid tier did not suit him. I also agree that after jan we were protecting him as there were so many times we were begging for his type of play to break teams down but he wasn't used. As afka said, I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle and parkies comment about him being too good are also a way of not wanting to demoralise him by saying he cannot cut it in the league we are in. Apart from norwich who have some decent attacking players, worth a lot more than most in this league, the teans that did well were functional and kept to the basics, spanners in particular never look a good team, but they do a job. I can imagine that would be why parky wanted a grafter in the middle rather than a craftsman and I would see jj as the latter. Sad state of affairs but gone now, move on and wish him well, particularly as the add ons for performances will help us out immensely. I was disappointed to see him on the bench yet not used, especially in a weakened liverpool team. When it went to 3-1 I saw hodgson turn round as if he was asking someone to warm up, only to see them bring on someone else who did little.
After one of the home matches at the end of last season (Carlisle?), when he missed loads of chances, this board was full of people saying that Shelvey should be dropped and it was great to have Bailey back.
I disagreed with them then, that's not the issue. The issue is that it wasn't clearly obvious to all the fans that he was important to our promotion push. At a late stage in the season, when we were piecing results together and putting up a little run for 2nd, many fans wanted him dropped after one decent, but wasteful, performance.
[cite]Posted By: Bexley Dan[/cite]said he wasn't outstanding for us and can see why he was dropped.
Look, I didnt expect him to start all 46 games, and I certainly didnt expect him to "boss" any of them. Name me an 18 year old you saw in this league bossing anything. Although its funny that at least two of the games I saw live (cos I dont see that many) he had a major impact (Brentford and Swindon home league). I would have hoped he'd be rested, and taken out of the limelight from time to time. But not played at all in the second half of the season, not even on the bench?
Of course, one other problem is that we dont have a reserve team, so once dropped, Jonjo had little chance to work on whatever it ws that parky wasnt happy with, or to show that he was ready for CM.
Good point about reserve league, Carl Jenkinson was asked about the fact that we were only playing freindlies. He said he was enjoying the fact that he was able to play against different reserve teams and some of a higher quality. However, CD piped in that he would need to play a reserve game before he came back and that he would much prefer a reserve league game for its competitiveness which could not be replicated in non competitive matches.
Comments
Can't wait to see him get on for the 'Pool'
jj played the started the opening games of the season and was out of the side after our victory over huddersfield on 16th october when we were sitting at the top of the league.
bailey was an ever present up until we drew at home to jill on 20th may and we were 3rd with 9 games to play.
now with no bailey in the side this would have been a great opportunity to let our best player shine in the middle and i think parky missed a trick here and don't really get the logic behind his reasoning.
i felt we played worse with bailey and jj together in the side,like gerrard and lampard for england.
I think Parky was also trying to fit Bailey in the team, he was captain and there was always a chance of him coming up with a goal. Then we also had Reid who when fit would usually play.
Parky wasn't the sort of manager to try a midfield of Sam Shelvey Semedo Reid, on a good day they'd have been great to watch, on a bad day they'd struggle against a decent side. That would have also meant leaving out his captain in Bailey. By then Parky preferred 4-4-2 so I think he just couldn't find a way to fit Shelvey into a 4-4-2.
The he's too good excuse was probably only part of it, might be true to an extent but there were still games we could have used him from the bench. Games like Stockport at home we could have tried him in CM in a 4-4-2.
Perhaps Parky didn't want to give Jonjo a go in CM against weaker sides knowing he'd probably drop him for more defensively reliable players for the the games against the stronger sides.
All just speculation, I'm sure Parky had a few reasons but we'll probably never know them all.
Far too sensible and well thought out a post.
Scoham always makes sense to me. However we surely have to accept that on this topic Uncle starts with a huge advantage when it comes to knowing what went on, and what he writes troubles me. You could say his view is coloured by the fact that he is a (rightly) proud relative. Against that, he has no axe to grind, Jonjo has gone to a great club, and Uncle isnt even a Charlton fan. His views are obviously both heartfelt and based on what the boy himself has said. We ignore them at our peril.
But I'd also like to know more about two things. Firstly I'd like to know what effect the boo-boys had on Parky's thinking. I had a big row with Airman Brown on Glynne's list about this, so dont be surprised if he pops up to comment here, but; while we have always had idiots booing players, I can't ever remember them booing a player who was both outstandingly gifted and obviously committed. If building a League One team around an 18 year old is risky - and it is- then that risk is increased when you have a section of the crowd who are impatient (that's a polite word). Secondly, what pressure was there from the Board to protect Jonjo as a saleable asset? If there was, i wouldn't entirely blame them, but its more pressure on Parky that helps to explain his decisions. I'm not anti-Parky at all, unlike NLA, but his handling of Jonjo is the one big question mark I have over him. I would like to believe it's misplaced.
I hope they will Kap. I would if I could be there.
Sad thing is jonjo wanted to stay and play .
I even think had he been played enough the advice being given to him from his hugely influential father and his agent was to stay with us and if needed to extend his contract as there was no rush to move.
I have very little doubt that Jonjo was pushed out of the club, but not because he was not wanted but because we needed the money. Jonjo's selling would have been a board decision regardless of Parkies wishes.
but we are just rehashing the same thing so i am in the camp that he is gone, he is improving and he has the world at his feet and now must we move on.
Doesnt stop me believing what i have been told and i have no reason to doubt those that told me, they have nothing to gain from it so why make it up
He had much better players around him.And much better fans, we might also note. Anyway he's a different type of player.
And Parker? Have you forgotten that he had to go on loan to Norwich?
funny how people see things is it.
Kenny Dalglish and the other night Sir Trevor Brooking seemed to think that Jonjo Is one of the the best young English players out there
good job you aint a liverpool scout or anything to do with England
and how a kid who has represented England at every level so far and stood head and shoulders above them had only the Odd flashes in your eyes is beyond me.
Made it on to their bench last night as well but couldnt get into a 3rd division team
Christian Daily knows more about football than me and he said "by far the best player at the club" when asked last season
I think it speaks more about the ability of our coaches and Parky than anyone else
He was a kid with bags of talent and should have been nertured by our club like he is getting now
He was 16 when Pardew put him in
Look, I didnt expect him to start all 46 games, and I certainly didnt expect him to "boss" any of them. Name me an 18 year old you saw in this league bossing anything. Although its funny that at least two of the games I saw live (cos I dont see that many) he had a major impact (Brentford and Swindon home league). I would have hoped he'd be rested, and taken out of the limelight from time to time. But not played at all in the second half of the season, not even on the bench?
Of course, one other problem is that we dont have a reserve team, so once dropped, Jonjo had little chance to work on whatever it ws that parky wasnt happy with, or to show that he was ready for CM.
Good luck jj, do us proud.
I disagreed with them then, that's not the issue. The issue is that it wasn't clearly obvious to all the fans that he was important to our promotion push. At a late stage in the season, when we were piecing results together and putting up a little run for 2nd, many fans wanted him dropped after one decent, but wasteful, performance.
Not playing a holding midfielder with Shelveyor Bailey in the middle cost us big time
All errors all resulted in us still being here.
Good point about reserve league, Carl Jenkinson was asked about the fact that we were only playing freindlies. He said he was enjoying the fact that he was able to play against different reserve teams and some of a higher quality. However, CD piped in that he would need to play a reserve game before he came back and that he would much prefer a reserve league game for its competitiveness which could not be replicated in non competitive matches.