[cite]Posted By: Ormiston Addick[/cite]Now that they have sacked Gray then Keys position is surely untenable, he is the one that instigated the conversation.
If he had any balls about him, which he obviously doesn't, then he would resign as well because he sparked the original incident.
[cite]Posted By: Ormiston Addick[/cite]Now that they have sacked Gray then Keys position is surely untenable, he is the one that instigated the conversation.
If he had any balls about him, which he obviously doesn't, then he would resign as well because he sparked the original incident.
With friends like that.....
Gray didn't resign though did he?
No, obviously he did not.
But since Keys was the architect of the original conversation about female officials - which basically ended up with his supposed "mate" getting the sack - then he should fall on his sword too.
Why should Keys go on working while Gray gets the sack? All Gray did was respond to Key's promptings about the fact there was a female official involved in the game.
Of course Keys won't resign though, he loves the cash way too much for that and probably doesn't really give much of a toss about Andy Gray either.
All I know is that if I were responsible for an incident that ended up with my colleague of 20 years getting the sack from a job then I would resign too, simply because it would be the right thing to do in actually taking responsibility for my actions.
[cite]Posted By: Exiled_Addick[/cite]The irony of him being sacked by the organisation that brings us the Soccerette and is owned by the same company as the paper which brought the world page 3 has to be acknowledged.
.
And the front page of the Sun today had a picture of the lino and the headline 'Get 'em off', meaning, of course, get Keys and Gray off the TV.
I dont like the lack of respect shown by them towards her and they dont come accross well at all but it is an off air conversation by two employees of an independent broadcaster, hardly watergate stuff.
What i do find slightly sinister about all this equal opportunities stuff is that you can be pulled up for the smallest things even if said in jest/ironically and things get blown out of all proportion very quickly.
It feels like the country has been brainwashed into losing any sense of perspective on these issues over the last twenty years.
[cite]Posted By: LawrieAbrahams[/cite]And the front page of the Sun today had a picture of the lino and the headline 'Get 'em off', meaning, of course, get Keys and Gray off the TV.
One of them laughing at the women's fa cup final from '98. [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ienZj9onV0Q[/url] Sky should get James Richardson in, used to do Italian footie on Bravo a few years back, seems to have a good knowledge of football, could also get the guy who presenets revisita de la liga as well to replace keys.
[cite]Posted By: bobbing along[/cite]But this isnt about the denial of oppurtunity. its about the reaction to a sexist comment. someone made the point that if it was a racist comment then people wouldnt see Grays sacking as unfair. For me, racism and sexism arent on the same plain. There are widely recognised differences between the sexes, which makes tongue-in-cheek sexist stereo-typing less outrageous
You are still missing the point. I have said what I've said. Racism and Sexism are about prejudice and discrimination. All the other stuff about differences has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
Stealing a paper clip and stealing a car are both examples of theft.
[cite]Posted By: (1984)[/cite]bigstemarra , nail on head.
I dont like the lack of respect shown by them towards her and they dont come accross well at all but it is an off air conversation by two employees of an independent broadcaster, hardly watergate stuff.
What i do find slightly sinister about all this equal opportunities stuff is that you can be pulled up for the smallest things even if said in jest/ironically and things get blown out of all proportion very quickly.
It feels like the country has been brainwashed into losing any sense of perspective on these issues over the last twenty years.
The fact that they are off-air is irrelevant as far as Sky is concerned, they were on duty at the time and in their workplace, the fact that their comments were not broadcast (originally) is neither here nor there.
A company like Sky simply cannot afford to tolerate people basically slandering a qualified match official in that manner - they were basically saying that she could not do her job because she was a woman, even though she qualified for her position wholly on merit.
If Sky did not act then they would have faced some serious heat from their advertisers/sponsors because they will not want to be associated with people like Keys/Gray, that's the way these things work.
If I were in my workplace and started mouthing off that a female colleague could not do her job because of her gender then my arse would be out the door in about 10 seconds flat, the same would apply to most employees.
Political correctness isn't perfect. It can be messy and overbearing, and it's true that it disproportionately protects women and racial or sexual minorities, but so what? White males don't need any more protecting when the world is already run by white males. There's no historical weight of discrimination against white males, and they aren't still gaining an equality foothold in society. It's very very difficult for a white person to feel racially discriminated against and alienated in a 90%+ white country, or for a male to be a victim of sexism when business, sport and politics are dominated by men. I'm sure it happens occasionally, but it shouldn't be a priority.
The best thing about this episode is that upon hearing that discussion, most people will have had a double take and a sense of 'they can't say that!'. That probably wouldn't have been the case 20-30 years ago. If it gets to the stage where women truly are on a level footing to men within football and gender is simply irrelevant, then maybe such comments could be considered 'banter' or 'just someone being a cretin', but whilst female officials are still a vulnerable minority in the game, bigotry from voices of influence is rightly stamped on. It's about creating an environment that's accepting of those who were previously discriminated against, and the quickest way of doing that is to constantly hammer home the message that there's zero tolerance to discrimination, even if this can be a little heavy handed at times.
I like Stewart Lee's view on what political correctness has achieved in terms of sexism, racism etc.:
"All these things have gradually been eroded by political correctness, which seems to me to be about an institutionalised politeness at its worst. And if there is some fallout from this, which means that someone in an office might get in trouble one day for saying something that someone was a bit unsure about because they couldn't decide whether it was sexist or homophobic or racist, it's a small price to pay for the massive benefits and improvements in the quality of life for millions of people that political correctness has made. It's a complete lie that allows the right, which basically controls media now, and international politics, to make people on the left who are concerned about the way people are represented look like killjoys."
KBS - I've met you. You are a really nice person. Don't show yourself up on here. Everything has got out of proportion. I'm sorry but your long post was actually quite sad.
As for the other poster who pulled me up on my "Bird" comment............Whoooosh!
Have I cancelled my Sky subscription? Have I fuck?
[cite]Posted By: Sussex_Addick[/cite]Political correctness isn't perfect. It can be messy and overbearing, and it's true that it disproportionately protects women and racial or sexual minorities, but so what? White males don't need any more protecting when the world is already run by white males. There's no historical weight of discrimination against white males, and they aren't still gaining an equality foothold in society. It's very very difficult for a white person to feel racially discriminated against and alienated in a 90%+ white country, or for a male to be a victim of sexism when business, sport and politics are dominated by men. I'm sure it happens occasionally, but it shouldn't be a priority.
The best thing about this episode is that upon hearing that discussion, most people will have had a double take and a sense of 'they can't say that!'. That probably wouldn't have been the case 20-30 years ago. If it gets to the stage where women truly are on a level footing to men within football and gender is simply irrelevant, then maybe such comments could be considered 'banter' or 'just someone being a cretin', but whilst female officials are still a vulnerable minority in the game, bigotry from voices of influence is rightly stamped on. It's about creating an environment that's accepting of those who were previously discriminated against, and the quickest way of doing that is to constantly hammer home the message that there's zero tolerance to discrimination, even if this can be a little heavy handed at times.
I like Stewart Lee's view on what political correctness has achieved in terms of sexism, racism etc.:
"All these things have gradually been eroded by political correctness, which seems to me to be about an institutionalised politeness at its worst. And if there is some fallout from this, which means that someone in an office might get in trouble one day for saying something that someone was a bit unsure about because they couldn't decide whether it was sexist or homophobic or racist, it's a small price to pay for the massive benefits and improvements in the quality of life for millions of people that political correctness has made. It's a complete lie that allows the right, which basically controls media now, and international politics, to make people on the left who are concerned about the way people are represented look like killjoys."
Pearls before swines, I am afraid, pearls before swines.
[cite]Posted By: Chirpy Red[/cite]KBS - I've met you. You are a really niceperson. Don't show yourself up on here. Everthing has got out of proportion. I'm sorry but you long post was actually quite sad.
[cite]Posted By: Chirpy Red[/cite]KBS - I've met you. You are a really niceperson. Don't show yourself up on here. Everthing has got out of proportion. I'm sorry but you long post was actually quite sad.
What was sad about it Chirpy?
All the tales of woe of her having to constantly explain the Off-side rule with ketchup bottles etc. How she had to grow up in a male dominated house....... Oh come on!!!! Makes it sound like Alabama in the 50's! KBS is a lovley girl, likes a pint, loves her football. No need to go on and on about her opresssion!
FFS WOMEN! Either enjoy football or just get out! Stop playig the sexist card. It's pathetic.
[cite]Posted By: Chirpy Red[/cite]All the tales of woe of her having to constantly explain the Off-side rule with ketchup bottles etc. How she had to grow up in a male dominated house....... Oh come on!!!! Makes it sound like Alabama in the 50's! KBS is a lovley girl, likes a pint, loves her football. No need to go on and on about her opresssion!
FFS WOMEN! Either enjoy football or just get out! Stop playig the sexist card. It's pathetic.
Next question Wibble?
But the point is that constantly having to justify that as a woman she does know what she's talking about spoils her enjoyment. Why should she have to get out? Why can't blokes accept her opinions?
But the point is she doesn't have to constantly have to justify that she knows what she's talking about. Enjoy football OR GET OUT!! Don't use football for a crusade for womens lib. Eventually she turned the table on some bloke. Well why not do that first of all instead of telling us about the years of suffering?
I don't want to go into one about KBS, she is a top fan. Just no need for all the hardship stuff IMO.
[cite]Posted By: aliwibble[/cite]Why should she have to get out? Why can't blokes accept her opinions?
Precisely. The whole point is that football is no longer a male domain, yet Gray and Keys and you take the view that it is and that if women want to join it, they have shut up and put up with the male directed sexism that they/you think is fair game.
The game has changed, the dinosaurs are dying out, football is a massive female participation and spectator sport now across the world. Furthermore woman have absolutely the same rights to be treated with respect about football as men. Respect for their love of the game, respect for the perspective they being, respect for their knowledge and respect for their emotional experiences that all football fans have, even if they are different to yours and mine.
[cite]Posted By: Chirpy Red[/cite]Eventually she turned the table on some bloke. Well why not do that first of all instead of telling us about the years of suffering?
Perhaps because she'd seen other women put down in the way Keys and Gray did, and didn't feel confident to turn the tables until she'd gone through the detailed explanation on several occasions? And if she'd gone off on one on the first bloke who did it, she'd have probably have got grief about being a feminist with no sense of humour. If you've never been on the receiving end of it, you probably don't appreciate how much of a pain in the arse it is.
Quote 306 - Chirpy Red: "Just cancelled my Sky subscription. Been with them since 1990, got it for West Indies v England. Young Lions Are Gonna Roar and all that.......
Bird on phone said loads and loads of cancelled subs since the sacking".
[cite]Posted By: Chirpy Red[/cite]KBS - I've met you. You are a really niceperson. Don't show yourself up on here. Everything has got out of proportion. I'm sorry but your long post was actually quite sad.
As for the other poster who pulled me up on my "Bird" comment............Whoooosh!
Have I cancelled my Sky subscription? Have I fuck?
Why would you say you've done something and then a few hours later deny it? Is it because you are that desperate to get a reaction? I'm sorry but your contradictory posts are quite sad.
[cite]Posted By: Stig[/cite]Quote 306 - Chirpy Red: "Just cancelled my Sky subscription. Been with them since 1990, got it for West Indies v England. Young Lions Are Gonna Roar and all that.......
Bird on phone said loads and loads of cancelled subs since the sacking".
[cite]Posted By: Chirpy Red[/cite]KBS - I've met you. You are a really niceperson. Don't show yourself up on here. Everything has got out of proportion. I'm sorry but your long post was actually quite sad.
As for the other poster who pulled me up on my "Bird" comment............Whoooosh!
Have I cancelled my Sky subscription? Have I fuck?
Why would you say you've done something and then a few hours later deny it? Is it because you are that desperate to get a reaction? I'm sorry but your contradictory posts are quite sad.
Please fella, stop taking me and life so seriously!
[cite]Posted By: Weegie Addick[/cite]Shame for all the wasted popcorn that Curb_It hasn't been on this thread for a while...more to come on that at some point, I think...
I can't help but see all of this as a massive over reaction and I can only imagine there is something else behind the sackings and this was the perfect excuse. There must be an element of truth in Gray saying he has been stitched up.
Although for me, it is probably because over the various workplaces I have been employed over the years, there has always been a level of 'banter' between colleagues / management (male and female) as shown by Keys / Gray, nothing personal, anything that has made anyone uncomfortable or offended anyone just light heartedness that gets you through the day. And you would be surprised at some of the public offices I have worke in!
[cite]Posted By: Chirpy Red[/cite]KBS - I've met you. You are a really niceperson. Don't show yourself up on here. Everything has got out of proportion. I'm sorry but your long post was actually quite sad.
As for the other poster who pulled me up on my "Bird" comment............Whoooosh!
Have I cancelled my Sky subscription? Have I fuck?
Chirps it was supposed to be 'sad' silly. That was the whole point, d'oh! As for showing myself up, mmmmm think that ones being done very well by yourself there ;-)
Yes we've met. Hence why I was'nt offended & knew you were on a wind up. Plus male dominated household? My Dad & Bruv were the only geezers amongst five women! But we're pretty frightening gals so maybe you're right ;-)
Stone made a good point about his wife/daughter/sister having a good laugh at sexism if it were aimed at them & then give a shed load back. It got me thinking.
I really do believe it depends who is dishing it out. I have many males colleagues who if they said to me ' help me stick this down me trousers' a la Gray, my Viz humour would come out & I'd probably reply 'ooh err missus' 'phnarr phnarr'. BUT there are also a couple of males I work with that if they said the same would get an entirely different reaction. Like 'f**k off you perve'' (have never been one to mince my words).
So what I'm getting at is, perhaps this was the straw? Gray just went a step too far. We're all guilty of not speaking up & letting know how far people can go with humour.
I really do believe it depends who is dishing it out. I have many males colleagues who if they said to me ' help me stick this down me trousers' a la Gray, my Viz humour would come out & I'd probably reply 'ooh err missus' 'phnarr phnarr'. BUT there are also a couple of males I work with that if they said the same would get an entirely different reaction. Like 'f**k off you perve'' (have never been one to mince my words).
that's a good point, things like that could only acceptable in the right circumstances and people.
KBS is right, although it can become tedious having to listen to the same unimaginative jokes. There have always been some repellant museum specimens about, and Andy Gray is one of them, although by no means the worst. What does bothers me is that there is a young, able woman called Sian Massey who has been unwittingly thrust into the centre of a (false) argument. I wonder how she is feeling about it all, does anyone even care, or is she yet another woman who has to 'learn to take it as harmless banter'?
Comments
Gray didn't resign though did he?
No, obviously he did not.
But since Keys was the architect of the original conversation about female officials - which basically ended up with his supposed "mate" getting the sack - then he should fall on his sword too.
Why should Keys go on working while Gray gets the sack? All Gray did was respond to Key's promptings about the fact there was a female official involved in the game.
Of course Keys won't resign though, he loves the cash way too much for that and probably doesn't really give much of a toss about Andy Gray either.
All I know is that if I were responsible for an incident that ended up with my colleague of 20 years getting the sack from a job then I would resign too, simply because it would be the right thing to do in actually taking responsibility for my actions.
Maybe that's just me.
That is the tape that Sky say led to them deciding to sack Gray. The Keys one relates to off air comments about Redknapps wife.
And the front page of the Sun today had a picture of the lino and the headline 'Get 'em off', meaning, of course, get Keys and Gray off the TV.
I dont like the lack of respect shown by them towards her and they dont come accross well at all but it is an off air conversation by two employees of an independent broadcaster, hardly watergate stuff.
What i do find slightly sinister about all this equal opportunities stuff is that you can be pulled up for the smallest things even if said in jest/ironically and things get blown out of all proportion very quickly.
It feels like the country has been brainwashed into losing any sense of perspective on these issues over the last twenty years.
Ghastly Murdoch rubbish..........hang on......
Sky should get James Richardson in, used to do Italian footie on Bravo a few years back, seems to have a good knowledge of football, could also get the guy who presenets revisita de la liga as well to replace keys.
Stealing a paper clip and stealing a car are both examples of theft.
The fact that they are off-air is irrelevant as far as Sky is concerned, they were on duty at the time and in their workplace, the fact that their comments were not broadcast (originally) is neither here nor there.
A company like Sky simply cannot afford to tolerate people basically slandering a qualified match official in that manner - they were basically saying that she could not do her job because she was a woman, even though she qualified for her position wholly on merit.
If Sky did not act then they would have faced some serious heat from their advertisers/sponsors because they will not want to be associated with people like Keys/Gray, that's the way these things work.
If I were in my workplace and started mouthing off that a female colleague could not do her job because of her gender then my arse would be out the door in about 10 seconds flat, the same would apply to most employees.
The best thing about this episode is that upon hearing that discussion, most people will have had a double take and a sense of 'they can't say that!'. That probably wouldn't have been the case 20-30 years ago. If it gets to the stage where women truly are on a level footing to men within football and gender is simply irrelevant, then maybe such comments could be considered 'banter' or 'just someone being a cretin', but whilst female officials are still a vulnerable minority in the game, bigotry from voices of influence is rightly stamped on. It's about creating an environment that's accepting of those who were previously discriminated against, and the quickest way of doing that is to constantly hammer home the message that there's zero tolerance to discrimination, even if this can be a little heavy handed at times.
I like Stewart Lee's view on what political correctness has achieved in terms of sexism, racism etc.:
"All these things have gradually been eroded by political correctness, which seems to me to be about an institutionalised politeness at its worst. And if there is some fallout from this, which means that someone in an office might get in trouble one day for saying something that someone was a bit unsure about because they couldn't decide whether it was sexist or homophobic or racist, it's a small price to pay for the massive benefits and improvements in the quality of life for millions of people that political correctness has made. It's a complete lie that allows the right, which basically controls media now, and international politics, to make people on the left who are concerned about the way people are represented look like killjoys."
As for the other poster who pulled me up on my "Bird" comment............Whoooosh!
Have I cancelled my Sky subscription? Have I fuck?
Pearls before swines, I am afraid, pearls before swines.
All the tales of woe of her having to constantly explain the Off-side rule with ketchup bottles etc. How she had to grow up in a male dominated house....... Oh come on!!!! Makes it sound like Alabama in the 50's! KBS is a lovley girl, likes a pint, loves her football. No need to go on and on about her opresssion!
FFS WOMEN! Either enjoy football or just get out! Stop playig the sexist card. It's pathetic.
Next question Wibble?
I don't want to go into one about KBS, she is a top fan. Just no need for all the hardship stuff IMO.
Precisely. The whole point is that football is no longer a male domain, yet Gray and Keys and you take the view that it is and that if women want to join it, they have shut up and put up with the male directed sexism that they/you think is fair game.
The game has changed, the dinosaurs are dying out, football is a massive female participation and spectator sport now across the world. Furthermore woman have absolutely the same rights to be treated with respect about football as men. Respect for their love of the game, respect for the perspective they being, respect for their knowledge and respect for their emotional experiences that all football fans have, even if they are different to yours and mine.
Yes - wasted on those its aimed at sadly.
Bird on phone said loads and loads of cancelled subs since the sacking".
Why would you say you've done something and then a few hours later deny it? Is it because you are that desperate to get a reaction? I'm sorry but your contradictory posts are quite sad.
Please fella, stop taking me and life so seriously!
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Although for me, it is probably because over the various workplaces I have been employed over the years, there has always been a level of 'banter' between colleagues / management (male and female) as shown by Keys / Gray, nothing personal, anything that has made anyone uncomfortable or offended anyone just light heartedness that gets you through the day. And you would be surprised at some of the public offices I have worke in!
Chirps it was supposed to be 'sad' silly. That was the whole point, d'oh! As for showing myself up, mmmmm think that ones being done very well by yourself there ;-)
Yes we've met. Hence why I was'nt offended & knew you were on a wind up. Plus male dominated household? My Dad & Bruv were the only geezers amongst five women! But we're pretty frightening gals so maybe you're right ;-)
Stone made a good point about his wife/daughter/sister having a good laugh at sexism if it were aimed at them & then give a shed load back. It got me thinking.
I really do believe it depends who is dishing it out. I have many males colleagues who if they said to me ' help me stick this down me trousers' a la Gray, my Viz humour would come out & I'd probably reply 'ooh err missus' 'phnarr phnarr'. BUT there are also a couple of males I work with that if they said the same would get an entirely different reaction. Like 'f**k off you perve'' (have never been one to mince my words).
So what I'm getting at is, perhaps this was the straw? Gray just went a step too far. We're all guilty of not speaking up & letting know how far people can go with humour.
that's a good point, things like that could only acceptable in the right circumstances and people.