[cite]Posted By: IA[/cite]It's not that they are the ones who are discriminated againstmore, it's that they're the ones who are discriminated againstfull stop.
If in a few years time we find that an industry is dominated by Amazonian women who refuse to give men the time of day, and refuse to treat them as equals, then yes, it would be time to start treating those women in the same way as Gray and Keys
Or everyone could just treat ouch as equals now and it wouldnt need to get to that stage?
There is no need for sexism (either way) and I dont think women should be allowed to make sexist remarks about men and get away with it, if men cant do the same....
Robert says 'I just dont think its right that women can be sexist because they are the ones who are discriminated against more. ' Totally agree, so presumably you are arguing for equal numbers of men and women sports commentators and you would call for the sacking of any of them who make offensive and sexist comments whilst at work?
[cite]Posted By: stilladdicted[/cite]Robert says 'I just dont think its right that women can be sexist because they are the ones who are discriminated against more. ' Totally agree, so presumably you are arguing for equal numbers of men and women sports commentators and you would call for the sacking of any of them who make offensive and sexist comments whilst at work?
Not quite.
My posistion would be that the best people get the jobs (either could be 100% women commentators, or 100% men commentators or a mixture...but it should be based completely on ability alone. To be honest, there will always be banter and light hearted comments between sexes and thats fine, and i dont think people should be sacked for it (as long as it dosnt go to far obviously).
They certainly have. much as I hate the Mail, it's easy to believe all that stuff. I certainly believe the woman who says that the saddest thing is that he won't care. Gray doesn't strike me as a man given to deep self-examination.
[cite]Posted By: stilladdicted[/cite]Robert says 'I just dont think its right that women can be sexist because they are the ones who are discriminated against more. ' Totally agree, so presumably you are arguing for equal numbers of men and women sports commentators and you would call for the sacking of any of them who make offensive and sexist comments whilst at work?
Not quite.
My posistion would be that the best people get the jobs (either could be 100% women commentators, or 100% men commentators or a mixture...but it should be based completely on ability alone. To be honest, there will always be banter and light hearted comments between sexes and thats fine, and i dont think people should be sacked for it (as long as it dosnt go to far obviously).
Unfortunately 'banter' has now become a word that covers a range of unacceptable behaviours - in this case sexist bullying.
Positive discrimination---afermitive action etc is wrong its discrimination.
spent most of the morning filling in Equality Impact Statements on my projects !
As for Gray the thing with the trousers alone would have got him the sack in most companies. I find it strange that he didnt get the sack for this but for the words over the mic ? If it was a case of final written waurning for the trosers and sack for the words -- makes sense , but seems a total mess. He will win a wrongfull dispisal claim if they put both incidents under one disciplinary.
Nice to see though that News International are the heros of the PC mafia ra ra.
[cite]Posted By: IA[/cite]It's not that they are the ones who are discriminated againstmore, it's that they're the ones who are discriminated againstfull stop.
If in a few years time we find that an industry is dominated by Amazonian women who refuse to give men the time of day, and refuse to treat them as equals, then yes, it would be time to start treating those women in the same way as Gray and Keys
Or everyone could just treat ouch as equals now and it wouldnt need to get to that stage?
There is no need for sexism (either way) and I dont think women should be allowed to make sexist remarks about men and get away with it, if men cant do the same....
Equality would be ideal, yes.
But we don't have equality.
I'll say it again. White men do not face prejudice in the workplace or their day to day life. That's the difference
[cite]Posted By: stilladdicted[/cite]Robert says 'I just dont think its right that women can be sexist because they are the ones who are discriminated against more. ' Totally agree, so presumably you are arguing for equal numbers of men and women sports commentators and you would call for the sacking of any of them who make offensive and sexist comments whilst at work?
Not quite.
My posistion would be that the best people get the jobs (either could be 100% women commentators, or 100% men commentators or a mixture...but it should be based completely on ability alone. To be honest, there will always be banter and light hearted comments between sexes and thats fine, and i dont think people should be sacked for it (as long as it dosnt go to far obviously).
So, allow me to clarify, do you find it acceptable that it is men who are making the decisions about who would be the best person for the job? And who would be making the decsions as to what 'going too far' means? Would that be men as well?
[cite]Posted By: stilladdicted[/cite]Robert says 'I just dont think its right that women can be sexist because they are the ones who are discriminated against more. ' Totally agree, so presumably you are arguing for equal numbers of men and women sports commentators and you would call for the sacking of any of them who make offensive and sexist comments whilst at work?
Not quite.
My posistion would be that the best people get the jobs (either could be 100% women commentators, or 100% men commentators or a mixture...but it should be based completely on ability alone. To be honest, there will always be banter and light hearted comments between sexes and thats fine, and i dont think people should be sacked for it (as long as it dosnt go to far obviously).
So, allow me to clarify, do you find it acceptable that it is men who are making the decisions about who would be the best person for the job? And who would be making the decsions as to what 'going too far' means? Would that be men as well?
Your assuming a man would make those decisions...there could ver well be a female producer...
[cite]Posted By: stilladdicted[/cite]Robert says 'I just dont think its right that women can be sexist because they are the ones who are discriminated against more. ' Totally agree, so presumably you are arguing for equal numbers of men and women sports commentators and you would call for the sacking of any of them who make offensive and sexist comments whilst at work?
Not quite.
My posistion would be that the best people get the jobs (either could be 100% women commentators, or 100% men commentators or a mixture...but it should be based completely on ability alone. To be honest, there will always be banter and light hearted comments between sexes and thats fine, and i dont think people should be sacked for it (as long as it dosnt go to far obviously).
Trouble is that some people can't and often won't accept that what they say does hurt others or puts them down or makes them feel embarrassed in front of colleagues. In other words it undermines them. And quite often that is because it is meant to do just that.
And if a person doesn't do what they are expected to do ie laugh along and allow themselves to be the butt of "jokes" then what? If a black person complains then they "have a chip on their shoulder" or they are "playing the race card"
If it's a woman then "she's got no sense of humour" or "it must be your time of the month love" or "She must be a lesbian - what she needs is a good shag".
And if you're not black or a woman then what? "What are you some PC, middle class Liberal?" Or if you pull some one up on a homophobic remark then it's "you a poof, then"
You see ignorant people have to put people into boxes. They can't or won't listen to the debate or try to see things from the other person's point of view. They have a pre-set, pre-judged view of the world and can't see beyond that. So anyone who challenges their prejudices has to be dismissed and they do that by putting them down and putting them into a box as a "poof/lesbian/PC/Liberal/N***** lover". Or maybe you get the "S/he is OK, not like the rest of them".
It's how certain people maintain that power.
Jokes and banter are fine, nothing wrong with a bit of innuendo or nudge nudge humour AS LONG AS the power is equal. If a middle aged male manager makes that remark about "help me tuck this in" to another middle aged manager who is female that's OK. She can joke back and most likely will about "nothing to find down there". All great.
If the same male manager says it to the 18 year old office junior who he manages then the power in the relationship is all his way so it is no longer a joke, it's scary and uncomfortable. And the same would apply if you switched the sexes.
Thankfully more and more people realise that is wrong but it still happens but maybe a little less. Younger people are more confident to challenge and they are backed up by legislation.
And most people on here can see the argument that discrimination is wrong (from either side) which is good. You can't change a dinosaur's mind but thankfully they will die out eventually.
[cite aria-level=0 aria-posinset=0 aria-setsize=0]Posted By: IA[/cite]It's not that they are the ones who are discriminated against[i aria-level=0 aria-posinset=0 aria-setsize=0]more[/i], it's that they're the ones who are discriminated against[b aria-level=0 aria-posinset=0 aria-setsize=0]full stop[/b].
If in a few years time we find that an industry is dominated by Amazonian women who refuse to give men the time of day, and refuse to treat them as equals, then yes, it would be time to start treating those women in the same way as Gray and Keys
Or everyone could just treat ouch as equals now and it wouldnt need to get to that stage?
There is no need for sexism (either way) and I dont think women should be allowed to make sexist remarks about men and get away with it, if men cant do the same....
Equality would be ideal, yes.
But we don't have equality.
I'll say it again. White men do not face prejudice in the workplace or their day to day life. That's the difference
really?...have you tried getting into the fire brigade recently?
you wont unless you are a ethinic lesbian midget. ive been trying for the last two years. im young, fit and strong but as im a straight white male i dont fill their quota's. surely thats prejudice?
[cite]Posted By: stilladdicted[/cite]Robert says 'I just dont think its right that women can be sexist because they are the ones who are discriminated against more. ' Totally agree, so presumably you are arguing for equal numbers of men and women sports commentators and you would call for the sacking of any of them who make offensive and sexist comments whilst at work?
Not quite.
My posistion would be that the best people get the jobs (either could be 100% women commentators, or 100% men commentators or a mixture...but it should be based completely on ability alone. To be honest, there will always be banter and light hearted comments between sexes and thats fine, and i dont think people should be sacked for it (as long as it dosnt go to far obviously).
So, allow me to clarify, do you find it acceptable that it is men who are making the decisions about who would be the best person for the job? And who would be making the decsions as to what 'going too far' means? Would that be men as well?
Your assuming a man would make those decisions...there could ver well be a female producer...
There could indeed, of the 14 men who constitute the Sky board, one of them is indeed a woman, there are 11 executives and 2 of them are women. Thus I feel my 'assumptions' have some merit so the question is valid - so what would your answer be?
[cite]Posted By: IA[/cite]It's not that they are the ones who are discriminated againstmore, it's that they're the ones who are discriminated againstfull stop.
If in a few years time we find that an industry is dominated by Amazonian women who refuse to give men the time of day, and refuse to treat them as equals, then yes, it would be time to start treating those women in the same way as Gray and Keys
Or everyone could just treat ouch as equals now and it wouldnt need to get to that stage?
There is no need for sexism (either way) and I dont think women should be allowed to make sexist remarks about men and get away with it, if men cant do the same....
Equality would be ideal, yes.
But we don't have equality.
I'll say it again. White men do not face prejudice in the workplace or their day to day life. That's the difference
really?...have you tried getting into the fire brigade recently?
you wont unless you are a ethinic lesbian midget. ive been trying for the last two years. im young, fit and strong but as im a straight white male i dont fill their quota's. surely thats prejudice?
Its the same with the police...
This is where discrimination goes to far to the other way and it needs to be sorted in my opinion
It looks like this is something waiting to happen the DM article has not been put together over night, nor has the Guradian one. it will be interesting to see how the legal case pans out. You can't really judge from what we have heard, its more like the things we have not heard that will determine the case. wonder if there will eb a job done on him in the NOTW on Sunday. Also is Keys going to go, his days are definetly numbered, this summer or now is the question.
[cite]Posted By: stilladdicted[/cite]Robert says 'I just dont think its right that women can be sexist because they are the ones who are discriminated against more. ' Totally agree, so presumably you are arguing for equal numbers of men and women sports commentators and you would call for the sacking of any of them who make offensive and sexist comments whilst at work?
Not quite.
My posistion would be that the best people get the jobs (either could be 100% women commentators, or 100% men commentators or a mixture...but it should be based completely on ability alone. To be honest, there will always be banter and light hearted comments between sexes and thats fine, and i dont think people should be sacked for it (as long as it dosnt go to far obviously).
So, allow me to clarify, do you find it acceptable that it is men who are making the decisions about who would be the best person for the job? And who would be making the decsions as to what 'going too far' means? Would that be men as well?
Your assuming a man would make those decisions...there could ver well be a female producer...
There could indeed, of the 14 men who constitute the Sky board, one of them is indeed a woman, there are 11 executives and 2 of them are women. Thus I feel my 'assumptions' have some merit so the question is valid - so what would your answer be?
Whoever is in charge, makes the decsion. Contaray to popular belief, not all men are sexist pigs and therefore im sure if a male is in charge of hiring, they will make the decision based purely on experience and suitability to the role.
[cite]Posted By: IA[/cite]It's not that they are the ones who are discriminated againstmore, it's that they're the ones who are discriminated againstfull stop.
If in a few years time we find that an industry is dominated by Amazonian women who refuse to give men the time of day, and refuse to treat them as equals, then yes, it would be time to start treating those women in the same way as Gray and Keys
Or everyone could just treat ouch as equals now and it wouldnt need to get to that stage?
There is no need for sexism (either way) and I dont think women should be allowed to make sexist remarks about men and get away with it, if men cant do the same....
Equality would be ideal, yes.
But we don't have equality.
I'll say it again. White men do not face prejudice in the workplace or their day to day life. That's the difference
really?...have you tried getting into the fire brigade recently?
you wont unless you are a ethinic lesbian midget. ive been trying for the last two years. im young, fit and strong but as im a straight white male i dont fill their quota's. surely thats prejudice?
Its the same with the police...
This is where discrimination goes to far to the other way and it needs to be sorted in my opinion
So one way of 'sorting it' might be to remove sexist men?
[cite]Posted By: IA[/cite]It's not that they are the ones who are discriminated againstmore, it's that they're the ones who are discriminated againstfull stop.
If in a few years time we find that an industry is dominated by Amazonian women who refuse to give men the time of day, and refuse to treat them as equals, then yes, it would be time to start treating those women in the same way as Gray and Keys
Or everyone could just treat ouch as equals now and it wouldnt need to get to that stage?
There is no need for sexism (either way) and I dont think women should be allowed to make sexist remarks about men and get away with it, if men cant do the same....
Equality would be ideal, yes.
But we don't have equality.
I'll say it again. White men do not face prejudice in the workplace or their day to day life. That's the difference
really?...have you tried getting into the fire brigade recently?
you wont unless you are a ethinic lesbian midget. ive been trying for the last two years. im young, fit and strong but as im a straight white male i dont fill their quota's. surely thats prejudice?
Its the same with the police...
This is where discrimination goes to far to the other way and it needs to be sorted in my opinion
If that's true - and I assume you've got evidence - you'd have to say that they brought it on themselves through the institutional racism that emerged through investigative journalism and the Stephen Lawrence case.
Sometimes Henry thought it depends on the situation on the inuendo.... some areas are clear cut and some are grey areas... not in my place whenre i work now.. in another place I used to a work a guy (completlty innocent) used to put hands on girls/ shoulders. I personally didn't see it is a problem as i always looked at it as a genuine friendly gesture, totally innocent). However 2 of the girls didn't like it.. and thought it as sexist... that was it. he was a friendly go and did nothing else.... they told me this but not him.. In the office i work in Bromley a guy kissed girls on cheeks to certain girls but they love it and it is taken as friendly gesture and he is good looking, not that I am gay of course). An ex team leader at my work place... a girls phone was left on her desk and he went too far. (everyome saw him as jack the lad and some girls led him on). Anyway he picked up the girls phone (which had a naked photo of her) and he "jokingly showed" the rest of the team. He was sacked (he had been on a warning before from his sick leave)... now that I think is clear cut... that is a No No and quite rightly he was sacked. We often have banter on our team I am the only male that the moment but people know what I am like and vice versa.. there is a lot of "sexist or sexy banter" that goes round but as well as heloing us get through the day in a pressurised evnironment we know when to draw the line and take into account who the person it is.. as I see it is Andy Gray is very much from the old school
[cite aria-level=0 aria-posinset=0 aria-setsize=0]Posted By: IA[/cite]It's not that they are the ones who are discriminated against[i aria-level=0 aria-posinset=0 aria-setsize=0]more[/i], it's that they're the ones who are discriminated against[b aria-level=0 aria-posinset=0 aria-setsize=0]full stop[/b].
If in a few years time we find that an industry is dominated by Amazonian women who refuse to give men the time of day, and refuse to treat them as equals, then yes, it would be time to start treating those women in the same way as Gray and Keys
Or everyone could just treat ouch as equals now and it wouldnt need to get to that stage?
There is no need for sexism (either way) and I dont think women should be allowed to make sexist remarks about men and get away with it, if men cant do the same....
Equality would be ideal, yes.
But we don't have equality.
I'll say it again. White men do not face prejudice in the workplace or their day to day life. That's the difference
really?...have you tried getting into the fire brigade recently?
you wont unless you are a ethinic lesbian midget. ive been trying for the last two years. im young, fit and strong but as im a straight white male i dont fill their quota's. surely thats prejudice?
Its the same with the police...
This is where discrimination goes to far to the other way and it needs to be sorted in my opinion
im all for the campaign to get more ethnic backgrounds into the emergency services but the job should be handed to the person best suited for the job. this is peoples lives we are talking about saving & helping.
It should not matter of your gender/background/sexuality, just if you are the best for the job. Unfortunately that doesnt happen.
[cite]Posted By: IA[/cite]It's not that they are the ones who are discriminated againstmore, it's that they're the ones who are discriminated againstfull stop.
If in a few years time we find that an industry is dominated by Amazonian women who refuse to give men the time of day, and refuse to treat them as equals, then yes, it would be time to start treating those women in the same way as Gray and Keys
Or everyone could just treat ouch as equals now and it wouldnt need to get to that stage?
There is no need for sexism (either way) and I dont think women should be allowed to make sexist remarks about men and get away with it, if men cant do the same....
Equality would be ideal, yes.
But we don't have equality.
I'll say it again. White men do not face prejudice in the workplace or their day to day life. That's the difference
really?...have you tried getting into the fire brigade recently?
you wont unless you are a ethinic lesbian midget. ive been trying for the last two years. im young, fit and strong but as im a straight white male i dont fill their quota's. surely thats prejudice?
Its the same with the police...
This is where discrimination goes to far to the other way and it needs to be sorted in my opinion
If that's true - and I assume you've got evidence - you'd have to say that they brought it on themselves through the institutional racism that emerged through investigative journalism and the Stephen Lawrence case.
thats absolute crap in regards to the fire brigade. My 2 cousins are fireman and have been for almost 10 years and they say that tsome of the new recruits are not at all suited to the job. One female cant actaully reach the ladder on top of the engine, so a male colleague has to take over that part of her role. is she there because of her sex or because she can do the job?!
[cite]Posted By: IA[/cite]It's not that they are the ones who are discriminated againstmore, it's that they're the ones who are discriminated againstfull stop.
If in a few years time we find that an industry is dominated by Amazonian women who refuse to give men the time of day, and refuse to treat them as equals, then yes, it would be time to start treating those women in the same way as Gray and Keys
Or everyone could just treat ouch as equals now and it wouldnt need to get to that stage?
There is no need for sexism (either way) and I dont think women should be allowed to make sexist remarks about men and get away with it, if men cant do the same....
Equality would be ideal, yes.
But we don't have equality.
I'll say it again. White men do not face prejudice in the workplace or their day to day life. That's the difference
really?...have you tried getting into the fire brigade recently?
you wont unless you are a ethinic lesbian midget. ive been trying for the last two years. im young, fit and strong but as im a straight white male i dont fill their quota's. surely thats prejudice?
Its the same with the police...
This is where discrimination goes to far to the other way and it needs to be sorted in my opinion
im all for the campaign to get more ethnic backgrounds into the emergency services but the job should be handed to the person best suited for the job. this is peoples lives we are talking about saving & helping.
It should not matter of your gender/background/sexuality, just if you are the best for the job. Unfortunately that doesnt happen.
I totally agree with this, the public services especially, have quota's to fill and its not right.
Comments
Wow, the Daily Mail really did a job on him there.
Or everyone could just treat ouch as equals now and it wouldnt need to get to that stage?
There is no need for sexism (either way) and I dont think women should be allowed to make sexist remarks about men and get away with it, if men cant do the same....
Carved him up and fed him to the dogs!
what a cougar in that pic. well played andy, 'take a boow' son.
Not quite.
My posistion would be that the best people get the jobs (either could be 100% women commentators, or 100% men commentators or a mixture...but it should be based completely on ability alone. To be honest, there will always be banter and light hearted comments between sexes and thats fine, and i dont think people should be sacked for it (as long as it dosnt go to far obviously).
Unfortunately 'banter' has now become a word that covers a range of unacceptable behaviours - in this case sexist bullying.
spent most of the morning filling in Equality Impact Statements on my projects !
As for Gray the thing with the trousers alone would have got him the sack in most companies. I find it strange that he didnt get the sack for this but for the words over the mic ? If it was a case of final written waurning for the trosers and sack for the words -- makes sense , but seems a total mess. He will win a wrongfull dispisal claim if they put both incidents under one disciplinary.
Nice to see though that News International are the heros of the PC mafia ra ra.
Equality would be ideal, yes.
But we don't have equality.
I'll say it again. White men do not face prejudice in the workplace or their day to day life. That's the difference
So, allow me to clarify, do you find it acceptable that it is men who are making the decisions about who would be the best person for the job? And who would be making the decsions as to what 'going too far' means? Would that be men as well?
Your assuming a man would make those decisions...there could ver well be a female producer...
Trouble is that some people can't and often won't accept that what they say does hurt others or puts them down or makes them feel embarrassed in front of colleagues. In other words it undermines them. And quite often that is because it is meant to do just that.
And if a person doesn't do what they are expected to do ie laugh along and allow themselves to be the butt of "jokes" then what? If a black person complains then they "have a chip on their shoulder" or they are "playing the race card"
If it's a woman then "she's got no sense of humour" or "it must be your time of the month love" or "She must be a lesbian - what she needs is a good shag".
And if you're not black or a woman then what? "What are you some PC, middle class Liberal?" Or if you pull some one up on a homophobic remark then it's "you a poof, then"
You see ignorant people have to put people into boxes. They can't or won't listen to the debate or try to see things from the other person's point of view. They have a pre-set, pre-judged view of the world and can't see beyond that. So anyone who challenges their prejudices has to be dismissed and they do that by putting them down and putting them into a box as a "poof/lesbian/PC/Liberal/N***** lover". Or maybe you get the "S/he is OK, not like the rest of them".
It's how certain people maintain that power.
Jokes and banter are fine, nothing wrong with a bit of innuendo or nudge nudge humour AS LONG AS the power is equal. If a middle aged male manager makes that remark about "help me tuck this in" to another middle aged manager who is female that's OK. She can joke back and most likely will about "nothing to find down there". All great.
If the same male manager says it to the 18 year old office junior who he manages then the power in the relationship is all his way so it is no longer a joke, it's scary and uncomfortable. And the same would apply if you switched the sexes.
Thankfully more and more people realise that is wrong but it still happens but maybe a little less. Younger people are more confident to challenge and they are backed up by legislation.
And most people on here can see the argument that discrimination is wrong (from either side) which is good. You can't change a dinosaur's mind but thankfully they will die out eventually.
really?...have you tried getting into the fire brigade recently?
you wont unless you are a ethinic lesbian midget. ive been trying for the last two years. im young, fit and strong but as im a straight white male i dont fill their quota's. surely thats prejudice?
There could indeed, of the 14 men who constitute the Sky board, one of them is indeed a woman, there are 11 executives and 2 of them are women. Thus I feel my 'assumptions' have some merit so the question is valid - so what would your answer be?
Its the same with the police...
This is where discrimination goes to far to the other way and it needs to be sorted in my opinion
Whoever is in charge, makes the decsion. Contaray to popular belief, not all men are sexist pigs and therefore im sure if a male is in charge of hiring, they will make the decision based purely on experience and suitability to the role.
So one way of 'sorting it' might be to remove sexist men?
If that's true - and I assume you've got evidence - you'd have to say that they brought it on themselves through the institutional racism that emerged through investigative journalism and the Stephen Lawrence case.
im all for the campaign to get more ethnic backgrounds into the emergency services but the job should be handed to the person best suited for the job. this is peoples lives we are talking about saving & helping.
It should not matter of your gender/background/sexuality, just if you are the best for the job. Unfortunately that doesnt happen.
He's done all right there.
thats absolute crap in regards to the fire brigade. My 2 cousins are fireman and have been for almost 10 years and they say that tsome of the new recruits are not at all suited to the job. One female cant actaully reach the ladder on top of the engine, so a male colleague has to take over that part of her role. is she there because of her sex or because she can do the job?!
I totally agree with this, the public services especially, have quota's to fill and its not right.
And Andy Gray will have a job offer on there by the end of the year.
Strange how so many have been outraged by his man after being told they should be.