this is getting ridiculous. they've apologised to the woman who's accepted it , MOVE ON.
this lineswoman would have heard a lot lot worse, not saying it's right, at sunday league level where she would have started her refereeing career. a lot of u have played sunday football and you know full well the snide comments she would have got, whether to her face or behind her back as keys and gray have done, as half you would probabl have said them. you're liars if you say otherwise.
classic case of people being offended for someone else.
SHE'S said lets move on and surely she's the one that matters.
I think that the fact that people think Gray is in any way an adequate pundit demonstrates exactly why what they said was important. Yes, it was a private and pig ignorant view expressed between (two admittedly experienced broadcasters in a mic-ed up strudio). But, it displays an underlying stupidity and lack of awareness that many will accept and build into their own"opinions".
You see, a world in which people consider those two fatheads anything other than an irrelevant and outdated irritating noise that continues in the background, is a world in which the "FOOTY!" watching public need the opinions of their ilk to help form their own views. If Sky and the internet had existed 30 years ago we'd be having a debate about whether opions about whether blacks could play in winter or whether foreigners could cope with our game (to be fair TalkingSpurt still trot out the latter debate on a daily basis). I know a number of women that understand the offside and other rules very well and I know a lot of "football fans" who really don't get it al all. In a post-Lovejoy world we sadly have a lot of people (and this extends beyond the SKY 4) who are spectacularly ignorant about the beautiful game. And nature hates a vacuum, so it gets filled with stupid opinions from poor broadcasters.
They shouldn't be sacked for being sexist, and even more sadly they shouldn't be sacked for displaying a remarkable lack of knowledge and insight about football - because that is what people need.
[cite]Posted By: Ledge[/cite]SHE'S said lets move on and surely she's the one that matters.
If he'd been sneering a black lino was going to be a disaster because of his colour, then would nobody other than the official in question be allowed to be offended in your world? Interesting.
I do think "offence" is a bit over the top. Is irritating that these clowns are stealing a living. I think a number of people have been expressing more offence about their lack of ability as football pundits than their ignorance, which really shouldn't be a shock to anyone.
Bedsaddick can i just say that anyone who says... "Women linesmen . What next , women driving cars??" and thinks that's funny deserves all of their corner darkened for having such a weak sense of humour.
At least Chirpy has got one... surely he's been having a laugh all day.
Was waiting for colour to be brought into this. I really think it's about intent. Honestly, I passionately believe in equality and believe it is a fact that women are equal to men. I have nothing against women officials but I have on occasion partaken in machismistic (If that's a word) banter. It's done affectionately but if quoted or taken out of context could make me look bad. Of course I do know that there is a time and place for it and work definitely isn't it. But we shouldn't forget that it was a private jokey conversation and I think ironically a sarcastic reaction to Karen Brady's earlier comments about sexism in the game. It is often done in front of women for a laugh and ones I know who will not take it seriously. I know of a lot of women who do similar, using generalisations to label men. If you don't mean it -I don't think it is serious. He or she who is without sin etc....
Reading the transcript, I got the impression that what was said was said tongue in cheek. I could be wrong but my position is that if Keys and Gray apologise and say they didn't mean it - it should be accepted and this shouldn't be taken further. That is not to condone genuine discrimination, but we should make sure we hit the right targets.
Moving on slightly, ironically I'd say most men don't actually understand the Off-Side Law. Certainly not most of the blokes who sit around me in the East. And defiantly the majority of Dad's who run the line on a Sunday for kid’s football.
had a woman ref at our Kent Cup game two weeks ago. She was excellent.
Our players were far more well behaved, not because she was a woman but because she was an excellent ref. She even wrote an email to the league saying how much of a pleasure it was for her to ref our game and we gave her a performance mark of 9/10. She knew the rules, was able to speak to the players on a level they were able to talk back too in a civil manner (theres nothing worse than a ref that talks down to people) and was extremely fair and let the game flow.
Have no problems with female officials as long as they can do the job. They are always gonna come in for a bit of stick because of their sex, im pretty sure they can handle it. This needs to be forgotten and not made such a big deal of.
As for Keys, i always find him quite rude to people in the studio....he loves interupting and posing stupid questions, so couldnt give a sh*t what happens to him.
I quite like gray when it comes to his punditry. think he has a very good understanding of the game.
[cite]Posted By: Chirpy Red[/cite]Moving on slightly, ironically I'd say mostmendon't actually understand the Off-Side Law. Certainly not most of the blokes who sit around me in the East. And defiantly the majority of Dad's who run the line on a Sunday for kid’s football.
Now that is the most accurate thing said anywhere in this thread. Then again, most of the blokes in the East don't understand football in general - I'm convinced the majority of them have just been kicked out of their houses on a Saturday afternoon and just huddle together there for collective warmth.
As for the Dads on Sunday mornings - it's laughable how many of them scream and rant and rave about the game their little cherubs are playing in without having the most basic understanding of its laws. I reffed my nephew's team a while ago and gave an indirect free kick in the area because the goalkeeper had tried to play the ball out from a goal kick, it hadn't reached the edge of the area after he miskicked it, and he then ran up and punted it upfield instead, thinking no-one had noticed. Their parents were going potty, telling me I didn't understand the rules and it should have been a penalty. Now I may never have taken a referee's course in my life, but that was about as basic a decision as you can take - yet none of them knew what the law said about it and insisted (at ear-splitting volume) that the ball had to be placed outside the area to give a free-kick instead of a penalty.
[cite]Posted By: Chirpy Red[/cite]Moving on slightly, ironically I'd say mostmendon't actually understand the Off-Side Law. Certainly not most of the blokes who sit around me in the East. And defiantly the majority of Dad's who run the line on a Sunday for kid’s football.
OK, picking up on the new togetherness mood, I am willing to admit that I still can't make sense of the 'interfering with play' exception. If an attacker has run out to the wing with the intention of drawing defenders, is in a potentially off-side position, but doesn't receive the ball, and a goal is scored by a player who is on-side, how is that not interfering with play? Answers from either gender happily accepted.
[cite]Posted By: Leroy Ambrose[/cite]
As for the Dads on Sunday mornings - it's laughable how many of them scream and rant and rave about the game their little cherubs are playing in without having the most basic understanding of its laws. I reffed my nephew's team a while ago and gave an indirect free kick in the area because the goalkeeper had tried to play the ball out from a goal kick, it hadn't reached the edge of the area after he miskicked it, and he then ran up and punted it upfield instead, thinking no-one had noticed. Their parents were going potty, telling me I didn't understand the rules and it should have been a penalty. Now I may never have taken a referee's course in my life, but that was about as basic a decision as you can take - yet none of them knew what the law said about it and insisted (at ear-splitting volume) that the ball had to be placed outside the area to give a free-kick instead of a penalty.
Hate to piss on your parade mate, but according to law, if the ball is not kicked directly out of the penalty area from a goal kick, it is to be retaken.
And no, I'm not a saddo who never played the game; did my knee in playing rugby at the age of 17 and my old football team needed a qualified ref so I did the course. Would highly recommend it, if only so you can be an annoying tit in discussions like this. Plus the pay for doing league games ain't bad either
[cite]Posted By: Leroy Ambrose[/cite]
As for the Dads on Sunday mornings - it's laughable how many of them scream and rant and rave about the game their little cherubs are playing in without having the most basic understanding of its laws. I reffed my nephew's team a while ago and gave an indirect free kick in the area because the goalkeeper had tried to play the ball out from a goal kick, it hadn't reached the edge of the area after he miskicked it, and he then ran up and punted it upfield instead, thinking no-one had noticed. Their parents were going potty, telling me I didn't understand the rules and it should have been a penalty. Now I may never have taken a referee's course in my life, but that was about as basic a decision as you can take - yet none of them knew what the law said about it and insisted (at ear-splitting volume) that the ball had to be placed outside the area to give a free-kick instead of a penalty.
Hate to piss on your parade mate, but according to law, if the ball is not kicked directly out of the penalty area from a goal kick, it is to be retaken.
And no, I'm not a saddo who never played the game; did my knee in playing rugby at the age of 17 and my old football team needed a qualified ref so I did the course. Would highly recommend it, if only so you can be an annoying tit in discussions like this. Plus the pay for doing league games ain't bad either
If it doesn't leave the area, then yes. This did leave the area - if the keeper hadn't humped the ball upfield thinking no-one had noticed I'd have made him retake it. The point I was making was that none of the parents believed you could give a free-kick in the area - they were screaming blue bloody murder that it had to be a penalty. Clearly none of them have ever seen a backpass picked up by the keeper
[cite]Posted By: Leroy Ambrose[/cite]
If it doesn't leave the area, then yes. This did leave the area - if the keeper hadn't humped the ball upfield thinking no-one had noticed I'd have made him retake it.
Sorry mate, from you saying "it hadn't reached the edge of the area after he miskicked it, and he then ran up and punted it upfield instead" I thought that was the case.
You make a good point about pundits and parents not knowing the basics of the law. If I had a quid everytime Andy Gray himself mentions something that was technically wrong, I'd be a millionaire. e.g. "he wasn't last man so shouldn't be sent off", "you can't talk to referees anymore", "if he didn't want to, he didn't have to send him off". Gray is great for spotting patterns of play, but not so great discussing referees.
Personally my favourite one from parents (and some of our fans) is shouting offside from a throw in....
[cite]Posted By: ValleyGary[/cite]had a woman ref at our Kent Cup game two weeks ago. She was excellent.
Our players were far more well behaved, not because she was a woman but because she was an excellent ref. She even wrote an email to the league saying how much of a pleasure it was for her to ref our game and we gave her a performance mark of 9/10. She knew the rules, was able to speak to the players on a level they were able to talk back too in a civil manner (theres nothing worse than a ref that talks down to people) and was extremely fair and let the game flow.
Have no problems with female officials as long as they can do the job. They are always gonna come in for a bit of stick because of their sex, im pretty sure they can handle it. This needs to be forgotten and not made such a big deal of.
As for Keys, i always find him quite rude to people in the studio....he loves interupting and posing stupid questions, so couldnt give a sh*t what happens to him.
I quite like gray when it comes to his punditry. think he has a very good understanding of the game.
[cite]Posted By: stilladdicted[/cite]OK, picking up on the new togetherness mood, I am willing to admit that I still can't make sense of the 'interfering with play' exception. If an attacker has run out to the wing with the intention of drawing defenders, is in a potentially off-side position, but doesn't receive the ball, and a goal is scored by a player who is on-side, how is that not interfering with play? Answers from either gender happily accepted.
I'm sure the great Brian Clough once said something like "if a player is not interfering with play what is he doing on the pitch?"! But that probably doesn't help the argument.
Let's start a campaign to have the offside rule abolished.
[cite]Posted By: Leroy Ambrose[/cite]
If it doesn't leave the area, then yes. This did leave the area - if the keeper hadn't humped the ball upfield thinking no-one had noticed I'd have made him retake it.
Sorry mate, from you saying "it hadn't reached the edge of the area after he miskicked it, and he then ran up and punted it upfield instead" I thought that was the case.
You make a good point about pundits and parents not knowing the basics of the law. If I had a quid everytime Andy Gray himself mentions something that was technically wrong, I'd be a millionaire. e.g. "he wasn't last man so shouldn't be sent off", "you can't talk to referees anymore", "if he didn't want to, he didn't have to send him off". Gray is great for spotting patterns of play, but not so great discussing referees.
Personally my favourite one from parents (and some of our fans) is shouting offside from a throw in....
Yeah - actually, looking back at it, it probably wasn't that straightforward! I've certainly never seen it before, and had to have a think about it before I gave the decision. Looking back through the laws, I'm actually unclear about it now (I wish I hadn't bloody brought it up now - I bet I was wrong!) - but the point I was making was that, whatever my decision should have been, it certainly wasn't a penalty!
I love the offside from a throw-in one as well. That crops up all the time - I even heard a (don't shoot me) woman scream this at the Valley a couple of seasons ago.
strangely enough something similar happened in Henry Jnrs game last week.
goal kick was touched by another defender before it had left the area. The ref (one of their dads) gave us a indirect free kick in the area where the defender touched it.
Thought at time it was wrong as the ball isn't "live" until it has left the area I believe.
Didn't complain as it was 1 - 1 in the last minute but we didn't convert the IFK anyway.
I think any wrongly taken Goal kick reults in a re-take. Even if the goalie kicks the ball in his own goal form a place kick, it is a retake.
It was Bill Shankly's quote about interfering with play etc....
One of the many mistakes made with off-side concerns the positions of players WHEN THE BALL IS KICKED FORWARD. So many times a goalie will take a drop kick while his striker is off side and running back. He may then head the ball from the kick whilst defenders are behind him. OFFSIDE! But you get all the idiots saying how can he be off side when there are two defenders behind him? It is all about WHERE THE PLAYER IS WHEN THE BALL IS PLAYEDFORWARD. NOT WHERE THE ATTACKER RECEIVES THE BALL.
Another common mistake is when a ball is played forward but takes a deflection from a defender and reaches a striker. The striker was already in an off side position when the ball was played forward but people say " But it came off a defender!" Wrong!
I'd love to see the refs given more flexibility to make decsions. you could sort out the offside rule by applying the words -'seeking to gain an advantage' and interpreting them as a player intentionally being offside for his advantage. So if defenders push up to trap a player - the ref can say that no advantage was intended so not offside. Of course this would require the authorities to allow refs to use judgement and common sense so they are not put in ridiculous situations where they have to sometimes apologise to players for sending them off because of the letter of the law.
The current interpretaion of interfering is totally daft in my view and regularly treated inconsistently by referees and misunderstood by pundits as well as supporters.
Another common misconception is that a player cant be offside if he is behind the player who plays the ball - even if the ball is played forward and he is otherwise in an offside position!
Another common misconception is that a player cant be offside if he is behind the player who plays the ball - even if the ball is played forward and he is otherwise in an offside position!
Not sure if it is the way you have worded it but you can't be offside if you are behind the ball so not a misconception.
Can't be offside in your own half, from a corner, goal kick or throw in either.
Not sure if it is the way you have worded it but you can't be offside if you are behind the ball so not a misconception.
Can't be offside in your own half, from a corner, goal kick or throw in either.
Very true Henry. If anyone is interested and has a spare 5 minutes, I'd recommend (particularly if you get used as a referee/assistant at kid's games) having a look at the Laws of Association Football.
You can find loads of little quirks in there (e.g. if a dog runs on the goal-line and stops a certain 'goal', it's a drop ball on the 6 yard box), plus when next listening to pundits such as Gray and Redknapp, realise that they don't really have a clue.....
Comments
this lineswoman would have heard a lot lot worse, not saying it's right, at sunday league level where she would have started her refereeing career. a lot of u have played sunday football and you know full well the snide comments she would have got, whether to her face or behind her back as keys and gray have done, as half you would probabl have said them. you're liars if you say otherwise.
classic case of people being offended for someone else.
SHE'S said lets move on and surely she's the one that matters.
You see, a world in which people consider those two fatheads anything other than an irrelevant and outdated irritating noise that continues in the background, is a world in which the "FOOTY!" watching public need the opinions of their ilk to help form their own views. If Sky and the internet had existed 30 years ago we'd be having a debate about whether opions about whether blacks could play in winter or whether foreigners could cope with our game (to be fair TalkingSpurt still trot out the latter debate on a daily basis). I know a number of women that understand the offside and other rules very well and I know a lot of "football fans" who really don't get it al all. In a post-Lovejoy world we sadly have a lot of people (and this extends beyond the SKY 4) who are spectacularly ignorant about the beautiful game. And nature hates a vacuum, so it gets filled with stupid opinions from poor broadcasters.
They shouldn't be sacked for being sexist, and even more sadly they shouldn't be sacked for displaying a remarkable lack of knowledge and insight about football - because that is what people need.
If he'd been sneering a black lino was going to be a disaster because of his colour, then would nobody other than the official in question be allowed to be offended in your world? Interesting.
I do think "offence" is a bit over the top. Is irritating that these clowns are stealing a living. I think a number of people have been expressing more offence about their lack of ability as football pundits than their ignorance, which really shouldn't be a shock to anyone.
At least Chirpy has got one... surely he's been having a laugh all day.
Sky is run by very smart execs who know how to play the world and are ruthless in the extreme.
I for one do not beleive that these two have never made sexist remarks before. So why does it come out now?
A few people have commented that they have got stale, maybe Sky need to get some new faces in?
Hey presto, get them out on a sexist line, thereby making sure they can't just hop to the Beeb and get your new poeple in.
I do not believe any of this wasn't pre-planned by Sky. Nothing happens at Sky by chance.
Reading the transcript, I got the impression that what was said was said tongue in cheek. I could be wrong but my position is that if Keys and Gray apologise and say they didn't mean it - it should be accepted and this shouldn't be taken further. That is not to condone genuine discrimination, but we should make sure we hit the right targets.
Our players were far more well behaved, not because she was a woman but because she was an excellent ref. She even wrote an email to the league saying how much of a pleasure it was for her to ref our game and we gave her a performance mark of 9/10. She knew the rules, was able to speak to the players on a level they were able to talk back too in a civil manner (theres nothing worse than a ref that talks down to people) and was extremely fair and let the game flow.
Have no problems with female officials as long as they can do the job. They are always gonna come in for a bit of stick because of their sex, im pretty sure they can handle it. This needs to be forgotten and not made such a big deal of.
As for Keys, i always find him quite rude to people in the studio....he loves interupting and posing stupid questions, so couldnt give a sh*t what happens to him.
I quite like gray when it comes to his punditry. think he has a very good understanding of the game.
As for the Dads on Sunday mornings - it's laughable how many of them scream and rant and rave about the game their little cherubs are playing in without having the most basic understanding of its laws. I reffed my nephew's team a while ago and gave an indirect free kick in the area because the goalkeeper had tried to play the ball out from a goal kick, it hadn't reached the edge of the area after he miskicked it, and he then ran up and punted it upfield instead, thinking no-one had noticed. Their parents were going potty, telling me I didn't understand the rules and it should have been a penalty. Now I may never have taken a referee's course in my life, but that was about as basic a decision as you can take - yet none of them knew what the law said about it and insisted (at ear-splitting volume) that the ball had to be placed outside the area to give a free-kick instead of a penalty.
OK, picking up on the new togetherness mood, I am willing to admit that I still can't make sense of the 'interfering with play' exception. If an attacker has run out to the wing with the intention of drawing defenders, is in a potentially off-side position, but doesn't receive the ball, and a goal is scored by a player who is on-side, how is that not interfering with play? Answers from either gender happily accepted.
Hate to piss on your parade mate, but according to law, if the ball is not kicked directly out of the penalty area from a goal kick, it is to be retaken.
And no, I'm not a saddo who never played the game; did my knee in playing rugby at the age of 17 and my old football team needed a qualified ref so I did the course. Would highly recommend it, if only so you can be an annoying tit in discussions like this. Plus the pay for doing league games ain't bad either
Sorry mate, from you saying "it hadn't reached the edge of the area after he miskicked it, and he then ran up and punted it upfield instead" I thought that was the case.
You make a good point about pundits and parents not knowing the basics of the law. If I had a quid everytime Andy Gray himself mentions something that was technically wrong, I'd be a millionaire. e.g. "he wasn't last man so shouldn't be sent off", "you can't talk to referees anymore", "if he didn't want to, he didn't have to send him off". Gray is great for spotting patterns of play, but not so great discussing referees.
Personally my favourite one from parents (and some of our fans) is shouting offside from a throw in....
Why.They probably make them all the time.It's just the hierachy at sky have had no reason to release them until now.
I'm sure the great Brian Clough once said something like "if a player is not interfering with play what is he doing on the pitch?"! But that probably doesn't help the argument.
Let's start a campaign to have the offside rule abolished.
I love the offside from a throw-in one as well. That crops up all the time - I even heard a (don't shoot me) woman scream this at the Valley a couple of seasons ago.
goal kick was touched by another defender before it had left the area. The ref (one of their dads) gave us a indirect free kick in the area where the defender touched it.
Thought at time it was wrong as the ball isn't "live" until it has left the area I believe.
Didn't complain as it was 1 - 1 in the last minute but we didn't convert the IFK anyway.
It was Bill Shankly's quote about interfering with play etc....
One of the many mistakes made with off-side concerns the positions of players WHEN THE BALL IS KICKED FORWARD. So many times a goalie will take a drop kick while his striker is off side and running back. He may then head the ball from the kick whilst defenders are behind him. OFFSIDE! But you get all the idiots saying how can he be off side when there are two defenders behind him? It is all about WHERE THE PLAYER IS WHEN THE BALL IS PLAYEDFORWARD. NOT WHERE THE ATTACKER RECEIVES THE BALL.
Another common mistake is when a ball is played forward but takes a deflection from a defender and reaches a striker. The striker was already in an off side position when the ball was played forward but people say " But it came off a defender!" Wrong!
The current interpretaion of interfering is totally daft in my view and regularly treated inconsistently by referees and misunderstood by pundits as well as supporters.
Another common misconception is that a player cant be offside if he is behind the player who plays the ball - even if the ball is played forward and he is otherwise in an offside position!
Not sure if it is the way you have worded it but you can't be offside if you are behind the ball so not a misconception.
Can't be offside in your own half, from a corner, goal kick or throw in either.
Very true Henry. If anyone is interested and has a spare 5 minutes, I'd recommend (particularly if you get used as a referee/assistant at kid's games) having a look at the Laws of Association Football.
You can find loads of little quirks in there (e.g. if a dog runs on the goal-line and stops a certain 'goal', it's a drop ball on the 6 yard box), plus when next listening to pundits such as Gray and Redknapp, realise that they don't really have a clue.....
As others have intimated, probably best to draw a line under this now and let her, in particular, get on with her job.
Erm that's exactly what I said. Take out the double negative and my post reads 'I for one believe that these two have made sexist remarks before'.