It was the usual hatchet job, that these type of documentaries do. Sky spent 3 months going to matches (according to them) & only heard racism at 2 games. One of the games was one bloke at Burnley. The other game was at Millwall, where they kept saying there were 56? incidents of racism. But let's be fair it was only 5 blokes & the footage they kept showing was of one bloke, shouting repeated racism. So quite honestly, in 3 months of going to games, they mainly came up with 1 guy at Millwall. In fairness to Millwall I'm glad, it's them & not us, because I've heard racist crap from our fans on trains, on occasions.
I suppose that was slightly more interesting than i'd expected. Terribly one sided though.
First of all did they go to any premier league games? Or could they not risk ruining the brand for the money men. I'm sure they would've found racist behaviour somewhere in there, but they probably could do without the damage to the name.
Second of all it really did seem to just focus on Millwall. I know they found what they were looking for there, but judging from the report they went back and back there hoping to catch more on camera. They said they caught something at Burnley but didn't seem to follow that up at all. Also they were mentioning things like Millwall fans throwing coins at the Charlton game and there being trouble after the match, yet (and i suppose thankfully) they said nothing about our fans.
They've kept going back to Millwall, and in the end found 5 different people making racist comments. Its pretty vile stuff, but its 5 people out of tens of thousands.
SSN really crucified them in that first 15 minutes
a bit harsh on millwall imo,they seemed to latch on to that moron in block 28 and just kept going back there knowing they'd get good footage for their report
They said they went to games at "all levels" of English football, although it would be good to have some sort of list published so we know exactly which games they went to.
They said they went to games at "all levels" of English football, although it would be good to have some sort of list published so we know exactly which games they went to.
Well they went to The Valley, because the film was outside The Covered End.
I think we should all hold our horses for a second, if there were reporters in our end who is to say it wasn't one of ours.
Thought had crossed my mind, but then realised if some one was racially abusing a player so openly in our end some one would have either reported it, or at least mentioned it on a forum/social media site IMO
Exactly. The few times its been one of ours someone has said/done something about it. You only have to look on here for the threads about the Lisbie song and the police arrests to see that the vast majority of our fans are against racism in a way that our nearest neighbours are not.
Perhaps, just perhaps, this forum doesn't reflect our entire fan base or maybe those with racist intent don't post it here ?
Not entire no, I realise that. But I'm not talking just the Internet, matches home and away. I don't know about you but I've heard/seen very little racist behaviour.
The beer selling girls behind the perspex at the "scene of our most recent riot" (!) were getting racist verbals from one bloke as I was Qing for a beer. He'd been served but was standing there shouting at them about "stuff"
Well I'm glad he wasn't in my que as I don't think I could've held my tongue. Last thing I needed that day was an argument with another Charlton fan, no matter how different our outlooks are.
Let's put things into context though chaps and not just follow the things we are told as gospel
Most on here who have been to England away I'm tournaments will know of the scummy Journo pricks who pay England fans to start trouble and who plant themselves into situations
This is 5 people in a crowd of ten thousand at a club with a reputation
The programme does more to highlight the shite way this country deals with confronting and reporting an issue than the problem
I am sure that if people looked hard enough at most clubs you would find 5 idiots prepared to spout rubbish
We certainly have people not too slow in making highly controversial and comments with xenophobic undertones On this forum and if they do it here they would do it in public
To me the programme didn't sit right not to say those who were highlighted are not racist arseholes and that millwall should act in the proper way
But this programme is not an insight into the racist behaviour of all millwall fans
I don't like the club or their fans come derby day but I know enough of them to know they are not all racist thugs
Hatchet job is my take also. They referred to racial abuse and indefinite ban for 13 year old, yet no the actual charge on the child was abusive language. If it was racial, then why not mention it. Marlon King - Hit and sexually assaulted 20 yr old girl. Cisse - Gobbed at supporters.
That bald headed bloke was a tosser of the highest order.
Millwall are no angels, but they have certainly upset someone at Sky.
It would appear the program certainly didn't want to undermine product Premiership.
No mention of us throwing objects?
I am not having it that they couldn't have made an identical program relating to any number of clubs.
nla has a point but I can't completely agree. All my wife's family are Millwall supporters and even they say that the things they hear at The Den make your hair curl. Thing is it really isn't just five blokes in block 28. They have a problem there and have had for years and years. I actually feel a bit sorry for the club because its a very tricky problem for them. They have pound for pound the worst set of supporters and the whole fan base is geared toward making the place intimidating and revel in their notoriety. Take that away from them and they will lose a lot of the small fan base they have. The club turn a blind eye to it and stewards are just too frightened to act. Would you for £25 or whatever the pay is. We all know the police are worse than useless and won't risk upsetting the applecart.
But you sum up mine brilliantly If they wanted to they could have done a proper Journo piece which no one could have disputed
Instead once again we get a rehash of the same old bullshit by a shit Journo and a shit back room team a shit editor and director
How many remember the piece in the paper about SCP and racism in the game with the NF Fc flag in the background yet failed to mention the fact it was forest we were playing
Shit journalism ruins real stories
Another cheap and shoddy shock horror story with no substance that will be sold as a problem In lower league football
We've got some racist idiots who see nothing wrong with what they say.
We have ignorant fans who believe that shouting "you black cunt" is just the same as "you fat/ginger/short cunt". People of a certain generation who grew up hearing that sort of stuff still struggle to see how it's racist and just see it as abuse, it's not as clear cut as that.
Then we've got the majority who don't do any of the above, but that one lunatic who has clearly got a screw loose has mouthed off and smeared us all again. It's sad that nobody turned around & broke his nose, but I guess 3 months for assault ain't worth it.
Not sure what all this Shittu abuse is about, he's treated as a hero down there, I can only think they took the chant "Shittttuuuuuuuuu" as being racial.
You're right nla in as much that Millwall are an easy target but that's for an obvious reason. As for the shit journalism etc. well it was Sky so no shortage of money or resourses and actually quite brave for Sky Sports for doing a damaging piece about football. Had that been shown on mainstream tv and not as a piece on Skysports news it would definitely have had more impact. I don't hold out much hope that much will come if it though.
You're right nla in as much that Millwall are an easy target but that's for an obvious reason. As for the shit journalism etc. well it was Sky so no shortage of money or resourses and actually quite brave for Sky Sports for doing a damaging piece about football. Had that been shown on mainstream tv and not as a piece on Skysports news it would definitely have had more impact. I don't hold out much hope that much will come if it though.
Well the fans at Millwall will be identified & banned, so something will come of that part of the programme.
As for the resources & money you say Sky could throw at it, the majority of it was very shallow and typical red top reporting. There is/was a lot more they could've done to investigate racism in football, but it was a quick 30 minute report.
Also, you say it was brave to do a damaging piece on football, they did something similar prior to Euro 2012.
SLL . How many games do you think the bald old bloke doing the abusing attends ? I bet he's been doing the same thing week in week out for years. Never been pulled or spotted and that by one of the most proactive anti racist clubs. Yeah right.
Don't get me wrong. I know that not all Millwall fans are like those portrayed. Like I said many of my wife's family are Millwall and are lovely people. What I find hard to understand is why for a club that preports to be at the forefront of Kick racism out of football it's still riddled with many vociferous racists when it would seem to be fairly easy to identify and subsequently ban them. Don't try to tell me that racist chanting and abuse don't go on in many areas of the stadium because I know from family that it does.
To be fair, at the last Charlton game at the Den I sat in the home end and didn't hear any racist language. At the bar most of the fans were similar to us, maybe a tad more working class. That's not to say I haven't heard racist abuse there in the past!
Well done to Millwall for banning the people on film but it does them no credit that they originally rebutted this and other accusations of racism from that area of the ground.
They have only acted now because of the Sky pictures.
They could have put their own spotters or trained their more an ample CCTV cameras on the area themselves but waited until someone else had incontestable evidence from elsewhere to act.
NLA is right that is seemed poor journalism. Some statements were not backed up. It would be interesting to see the full reports mentioned for Charlton, Millwall and other clubs. And NLA is right that that there are some non-racist millwall fans just as there are racist fans at Charlton and every other club.
However the reason Sky go to the new Den is that they know that they won't have to look very hard to find what they are looking for.
The difference is that Charlton didn't turn a blind eye to the Lisbie song or other incidents and neither did our fans.
Too many Millwall fans are very quick to deny, excuse or to try and defllect the racism that clearly does happen.
Until millwall fans report their own and MFC actively seek out racists rather than only acting when their hand is forced by the likes of Sky the problem will remain.
The sad and depressing aspect of it all wasn't that there are racist idiots in football or society, we all knew that alread), but that the five fans clearly felt very safe to say what they did over and over again.
Didn't we have an issue regarding our fans singing 'there's only one Gary Dobson' on the tube on the day of the Fulham cup game? Or did I dream about that? Either way, to think we don't have an element of lumpen fans too, is to kid ourselves. There are problems in Britain all over, and some of them will manifest themselves at football matches. Lets face it, fans are urged to lose their inhibitions at games, urged from everywhere. That passion is applauded. However we get suprised because a minority of people who tap in to that passion inside, who lose more inhibitions than most in the blanket of a crowd, don't have a cop in the head as most of us do, and can't curtail what they say and do. If the culture of football demands passion, it shouldn't be suprised if that passion spills over. What saddens me about the Millwall aspect of this is that so many of their fans seem to relish it all. Judging by our support, and messageboards the absolute vast majority of Charlton fans would feel shame. If the Gary Dobson thing is true I feel ashamed. I know loads of great Millwall fans, I wish they were better at counteracting the almost cartoon posturing of some of the other fans who feel they have the right to define what makes 'proper Wall'.
No one likes us, we don't care.
Is that the sentiment that Millwall fans use to justify everything? Well certainly not all Millwall fans. SLL is a good example of a perfectly decent, if misguided ;-), Millwall fan. However it seems that the predominant culture, the voice of those who take it on themselves to define 'Proper Wall', is so strong down there, so strong. And one aspect that predominant culture can be glimpsed by the messageboard link. It is up to those decent Millwall fans to sort out their own club if they possibly can. Or maybe they really don't care.
Well done to Millwall for banning the people on film but it does them no credit that they originally rebutted this and other accusations of racism from that area of the ground.
They have only acted now because of the Sky pictures.
They could have put their own spotters or trained their more an ample CCTV cameras on the area themselves but waited until someone else had incontestable evidence from elsewhere to act..
Do you know why the originally denied racism at that game? First of all, no fan, steward, police officer, match official or player made a complaint. Millwall became aware of an accusation through Twitter. They subsequently spoke to Diouf who denied hearing any racism. Based on that Millwall denied it, can't really blame them based on the avenues they investigated.
The sad and depressing aspect of it all wasn't that there are racist idiots in football or society, we all knew that alread), but that the five fans clearly felt very safe to say what they did over and over again.
From what I saw it was one fan who repeatedly made comments, not all 5? & the bloke is clearly a nut, if you see the photo of the crowd sitting near him there aren't many that have got the bollocks to pull him up and risk a volley of further abuse or being nicked for ending up fighting.
Don't get me wrong. I know that not all Millwall fans are like those portrayed. Like I said many of my wife's family are Millwall and are lovely people. What I find hard to understand is why for a club that preports to be at the forefront of Kick racism out of football it's still riddled with many vociferous racists when it would seem to be fairly easy to identify and subsequently ban them. Don't try to tell me that racist chanting and abuse don't go on in many areas of the stadium because I know from family that it does.
You'd need to be a much cleverer man than to me to start to discuss why the club, in the area it does, attracts potentially more fans than other who may hold more right wing views. There must be a lot more to it than what you seem to be suggesting. All I know is I rarely hear comments, but I have heard them, & I have confronted people before, but generally at Millwall there are plenty of black fans and a growing number of asian fans. We have quite a few prominent black fans from the past, their nephews & kids etc still come.
I think in general it's really not as bad as some think, but we do have a higher than average number of whelks who, as tonight shows, really do tarnish the rest of us.
Comments
Sky spent 3 months going to matches (according to them) & only heard racism at 2 games.
One of the games was one bloke at Burnley.
The other game was at Millwall, where they kept saying there were 56? incidents of racism. But let's be fair it was only 5 blokes & the footage they kept showing was of one bloke, shouting repeated racism.
So quite honestly, in 3 months of going to games, they mainly came up with 1 guy at Millwall.
In fairness to Millwall I'm glad, it's them & not us, because I've heard racist crap from our fans on trains, on occasions.
First of all did they go to any premier league games? Or could they not risk ruining the brand for the money men. I'm sure they would've found racist behaviour somewhere in there, but they probably could do without the damage to the name.
Second of all it really did seem to just focus on Millwall. I know they found what they were looking for there, but judging from the report they went back and back there hoping to catch more on camera.
They said they caught something at Burnley but didn't seem to follow that up at all.
Also they were mentioning things like Millwall fans throwing coins at the Charlton game and there being trouble after the match, yet (and i suppose thankfully) they said nothing about our fans.
Let's put things into context though chaps and not just follow the things we are told as gospel
Most on here who have been to England away I'm tournaments will know of the scummy Journo pricks who pay England fans to start trouble and who plant themselves into situations
This is 5 people in a crowd of ten thousand at a club with a reputation
The programme does more to highlight the shite way this country deals with confronting and reporting an issue than the problem
I am sure that if people looked hard enough at most clubs you would find 5 idiots prepared to spout rubbish
We certainly have people not too slow in making highly controversial and comments with xenophobic undertones
On this forum and if they do it here they would do it in public
To me the programme didn't sit right not to say those who were highlighted are not racist arseholes and that millwall should act in the proper way
But this programme is not an insight into the racist behaviour of all millwall fans
I don't like the club or their fans come derby day but I know enough of them to know they are not all racist thugs
They referred to racial abuse and indefinite ban for 13 year old, yet no the actual charge on the child was abusive language. If it was racial, then why not mention it.
Marlon King - Hit and sexually assaulted 20 yr old girl.
Cisse - Gobbed at supporters.
That bald headed bloke was a tosser of the highest order.
Millwall are no angels, but they have certainly upset someone at Sky.
It would appear the program certainly didn't want to undermine product Premiership.
No mention of us throwing objects?
I am not having it that they couldn't have made an identical program relating to any number of clubs.
Funny that sky's most premium product not Being shown in a bad light
But you sum up mine brilliantly If they wanted to they could have done a proper Journo piece which no one could have disputed
Instead once again we get a rehash of the same old bullshit by a shit Journo and a shit back room team a shit editor and director
How many remember the piece in the paper about SCP and racism in the game with the NF Fc flag in the background yet failed to mention the fact it was forest we were playing
Shit journalism ruins real stories
Another cheap and shoddy shock horror story with no substance that will be sold as a problem In lower league football
We have ignorant fans who believe that shouting "you black cunt" is just the same as "you fat/ginger/short cunt". People of a certain generation who grew up hearing that sort of stuff still struggle to see how it's racist and just see it as abuse, it's not as clear cut as that.
Then we've got the majority who don't do any of the above, but that one lunatic who has clearly got a screw loose has mouthed off and smeared us all again. It's sad that nobody turned around & broke his nose, but I guess 3 months for assault ain't worth it.
Not sure what all this Shittu abuse is about, he's treated as a hero down there, I can only think they took the chant "Shittttuuuuuuuuu" as being racial.
Your clubs rep will always preceed you however reading on here most won't be fooled by shit journalism
statement from millwall about the SSN report
As for the resources & money you say Sky could throw at it, the majority of it was very shallow and typical red top reporting. There is/was a lot more they could've done to investigate racism in football, but it was a quick 30 minute report.
Also, you say it was brave to do a damaging piece on football, they did something similar prior to Euro 2012.
They could've done so much more so much more
It stinks of the sort of thing murdercock has done for years with his newspapers
I have witnessed first hand the tactic this mug uses to create a something from nothing
Where as should they have done their job properly the would probably get some thing more from something that is actually there
Anywhere I can watch it again?
They have only acted now because of the Sky pictures.
They could have put their own spotters or trained their more an ample CCTV cameras on the area themselves but waited until someone else had incontestable evidence from elsewhere to act.
NLA is right that is seemed poor journalism. Some statements were not backed up. It would be interesting to see the full reports mentioned for Charlton, Millwall and other clubs. And NLA is right that that there are some non-racist millwall fans just as there are racist fans at Charlton and every other club.
However the reason Sky go to the new Den is that they know that they won't have to look very hard to find what they are looking for.
The difference is that Charlton didn't turn a blind eye to the Lisbie song or other incidents and neither did our fans.
Too many Millwall fans are very quick to deny, excuse or to try and defllect the racism that clearly does happen.
Until millwall fans report their own and MFC actively seek out racists rather than only acting when their hand is forced by the likes of Sky the problem will remain.
The sad and depressing aspect of it all wasn't that there are racist idiots in football or society, we all knew that alread), but that the five fans clearly felt very safe to say what they did over and over again.
Or did I dream about that?
Either way, to think we don't have an element of lumpen fans too, is to kid ourselves. There are problems in Britain all over, and some of them will manifest themselves at football matches.
Lets face it, fans are urged to lose their inhibitions at games, urged from everywhere. That passion is applauded. However we get suprised because a minority of people who tap in to that passion inside, who lose more inhibitions than most in the blanket of a crowd, don't have a cop in the head as most of us do, and can't curtail what they say and do.
If the culture of football demands passion, it shouldn't be suprised if that passion spills over.
What saddens me about the Millwall aspect of this is that so many of their fans seem to relish it all.
Judging by our support, and messageboards the absolute vast majority of Charlton fans would feel shame. If the Gary Dobson thing is true I feel ashamed.
I know loads of great Millwall fans, I wish they were better at counteracting the almost cartoon posturing of some of the other fans who feel they have the right to define what makes 'proper Wall'.
No one likes us, we don't care.
Is that the sentiment that Millwall fans use to justify everything? Well certainly not all Millwall fans. SLL is a good example of a perfectly decent, if misguided ;-), Millwall fan. However it seems that the predominant culture, the voice of those who take it on themselves to define 'Proper Wall', is so strong down there, so strong. And one aspect that predominant culture can be glimpsed by the messageboard link.
It is up to those decent Millwall fans to sort out their own club if they possibly can.
Or maybe they really don't care.
No fan, steward, police officer heard that? Or none of them wanted to report it?
I think in general it's really not as bad as some think, but we do have a higher than average number of whelks who, as tonight shows, really do tarnish the rest of us.