I think a few Millwall fans will have to open their eyes a little & realise that it does go on more than they wish to think. Most parts of the ground it doesn't, but there are certain parts, and Block 28 is a part of the ground that attracts the loons & wannabes, where abuse like that may be heard more often.
It's very hard to expect people to start self policing it, the bloke looks off his nut and is shouting racial & intimidating language. Not many will have the balls to say something, especially knowing it may well end up in a fight.
As for future punishments, Jason Roberts wants bigger fines etc. I just don't see how that solves the issue? Fining the club won't stop that bloke walking about holding those views. He must have them ingrained from childhood or from previous experiences. Shouldn't the whole point be about education rather than fining?
I'd rather people were educated and changed their views, rather than keep their views but suppressing them underground.
The whole point about it is the club doing more themselves. We support Charlton and we know the reputation block 28 has so why are Millwall doing nothing about the numptys that seem to populate it?
They have & are. Sales are now restricted only to ST holders, no general sale. Been that way for a few weeks I think.
And that is the problem. They have reacted very slowly despite the many reports of abuse (racial and non-racial) from that area this season alone.
Bigger fines WOULD help as there is a bigger incentive to do something and not, as Millwall have done this season, tried to deny there is much of a problem. They seem more worried about upsetting the sort of people who post on the message boards above and losing income than taking swift action.
The threat of a £10k or £20k fine (not suspended as it usually is) would make the MFC board sit up and be pro-active by putting their own spotters in there and training their own cameras on the area rather than waiting until Sky force them to take action.
Didn't we have an issue regarding our fans singing 'there's only one Gary Dobson' on the tube on the day of the Fulham cup game?
I heard that from fellow supporters which was shocking. Also had a bunch of idiots next to me at the Fulham FA Cup game last year who thought it was funny to sing 'there's only one 9/11' at Clint Dempsey for the entire game. Bloke infront told them they were out of order and a mass punch-up resulted in my seat covered in blood, and my younger sister being pushed to the floor and who hasn't been to an away game since.
Off-topic slightly I know, but there are morons at our club as well unfortunately!
Didn't we have an issue regarding our fans singing 'there's only one Gary Dobson' on the tube on the day of the Fulham cup game?
I heard that from fellow supporters which was shocking. Also had a bunch of idiots next to me at the Fulham FA Cup game last year who thought it was funny to sing 'there's only one 9/11' at Clint Dempsey for the entire game. Bloke infront told them they were out of order and a mass punch-up resulted in my seat covered in blood, and my younger sister being pushed to the floor and who hasn't been to an away game since.
Off-topic slightly I know, but there are morons at our club as well unfortunately!
That is shocking, how anyone could joke about 9/11 is utterly beyond me.
I'd like to see the mouthy chav scum go to NY and carry on like that, they'd get torn limb from limb in about 30 seconds.
Didn't we have an issue regarding our fans singing 'there's only one Gary Dobson' on the tube on the day of the Fulham cup game?
I heard that from fellow supporters which was shocking. Also had a bunch of idiots next to me at the Fulham FA Cup game last year who thought it was funny to sing 'there's only one 9/11' at Clint Dempsey for the entire game. Bloke infront told them they were out of order and a mass punch-up resulted in my seat covered in blood, and my younger sister being pushed to the floor and who hasn't been to an away game since.
Off-topic slightly I know, but there are morons at our club as well unfortunately!
I'm quite sure that the majority of those blokes weren't Charlton supporters and had just come along for the day out.
I think a few Millwall fans will have to open their eyes a little & realise that it does go on more than they wish to think. Most parts of the ground it doesn't, but there are certain parts, and Block 28 is a part of the ground that attracts the loons & wannabes, where abuse like that may be heard more often.
It's very hard to expect people to start self policing it, the bloke looks off his nut and is shouting racial & intimidating language. Not many will have the balls to say something, especially knowing it may well end up in a fight.
As for future punishments, Jason Roberts wants bigger fines etc. I just don't see how that solves the issue? Fining the club won't stop that bloke walking about holding those views. He must have them ingrained from childhood or from previous experiences. Shouldn't the whole point be about education rather than fining?
I'd rather people were educated and changed their views, rather than keep their views but suppressing them underground.
The whole point about it is the club doing more themselves. We support Charlton and we know the reputation block 28 has so why are Millwall doing nothing about the numptys that seem to populate it?
They have & are. Sales are now restricted only to ST holders, no general sale. Been that way for a few weeks I think. Could they be doing more, possibly.
But you haven't answered my question have you. Preventing people from sitting there doesn't educate ignorant people does it. Or why they have those views in the first place.
You can't educate these people, that's a problem with society and you're just a football club. Keeping them away and showing that there's no place for it at at the club is all you can and are expected to do. A racist isn't going to see kids with flags on an anti-racist day and think, "They've got a point, time to change my ways". Yes it's sweeping it under a carpet but it keeps you clean and does lower it spreading.
I assume that we all ( Charlton fans) have a justifiably low low opinion of the typical Millwall supporter. I have not seen the TV programme but I am aware of how the media in the past have stitched us up so no longer believe the 'facts' that are presented to us. Far dos, the forum gives us an insight into the phsyche of those using it and support the premise that many Millwall are low lifes.
Many years back now, along with CARE, Greenwich Council, we undertook a survey of attitudes to understand why our fans were under represented by the ethnic minorities. We found that 10% that had been to a professional football match had experienced or observes racism whilst at that match. The Voice reported it as 90% had experienced racism!
A TV documentary presented by Darcus Howe was given free reign to interview fans in the bar after a Nottingham Forest match. They set the camera up just to show the first 2 letters of a Forest St Georges flag. This was deliberate to suggest that an NF flag was being freely shown in the ground.
Some journos are simply scum too.
Just to be clear I am not defending Millwall, the club or their fans and agree that they should be sorted out.
Firstly I have a mate who follows the Spanners,he never can see any wrong in their fans but loves to talk about the 'edge' and 'unique atmosphere'.He can't see how this can spill over and he gets extremely defensive about reports such as this.
I also was the 'gent' who along with NLA challenged the Lisbie song at Orient.What reassured me was the reaction of NLA and his mates shouting support from the next section and also the attitude of the police.After the game they took me to one side and told me that the club was aware of the problem and that an undercover operation was under way and that arrests had already been made following the Walsall away game and that this was still on going.The following Saturday we played at Fulham and we all know what happened after this.
I somehow can't see Millwall approaching the issue in the same way.A 13 year old boy was hung out to dry for the Marvin Sordell incident and the club do not seem to pursue perpetrators in the same way that we have.
having seen first hand what those pricks at the sun and mirror, star are prepared to do to show football fans in a bad light there are instances where they plant people into situations
in this instance i do not doubt they are mill small i do however have serious concerns on the programme and the fact they did not do enough to show the other clubs that have issues just as big as them, but they wouldnt dare do that to the sky golden ticket would they
having seen first hand what those pricks at the sun and mirror, star are prepared to do to show football fans in a bad light there are instances where they plant people into situations
in this instance i do not doubt they are mill small i do however have serious concerns on the programme and the fact they did not do enough to show the other clubs that have issues just as big as them, but they wouldnt dare do that to the sky golden ticket would they
Nail on the head, I condem the Milwall fans shown on the video, but I wonder what a 3 month investigation into games at Liverpool v United, Spurs v Arsenal, Chelsea, Leeds, City etc would have thrown up.
Any decent journo who wanted to prove that there is an issue in the English game couldve chosen a whole heap of fixtures just as likely to give the evidence they wanted it just didnt fit the remit
this is not an anti millwall programme as such as i do believe there is an element of it, it is a show that was to highlight the issues are non premier league and they went to the game/club where they would not be let down
none what so ever and i would not try to make any for them but it is shockingly poor form by SSN with the facilities and cash they have behind them to really make a proper story out of it instead of this rubbish they put out
He was doing alright until he claimed the club could take no blame for it, and then had to a get a dig in about us, using the kind of tabloid exaggerations that the rest of the article seems to be taking issue with.
A shame that the more he wrote the more the mask slipped.
When I think of racist clubs, I think mainly of Chelsea and maybe Everton, Millwall fans are not inherently racist, no more than any other club, as has been pointed out earlier in this thread.
This.
Comparing Chelsea in the 70's & 80's to now, you wouldnt have dreamed of seeing a black face on the terraces back then.
I have personal experience at how the media invent things to suit a storyline, myself and Terry Naylor were offered cash in Munich in 2001 at the England 5-1 game to stage or start a fight by a journo.
I have personal experience at how the media invent things to suit a storyline, myself and Terry Naylor were offered cash in Munich in 2001 at the England 5-1 game to stage or start a fight by a journo.
How much? Should've taken the cash and then had a pretend fight with each other.
I think a few Millwall fans will have to open their eyes a little & realise that it does go on more than they wish to think. Most parts of the ground it doesn't, but there are certain parts, and Block 28 is a part of the ground that attracts the loons & wannabes, where abuse like that may be heard more often.
It's very hard to expect people to start self policing it, the bloke looks off his nut and is shouting racial & intimidating language. Not many will have the balls to say something, especially knowing it may well end up in a fight.
As for future punishments, Jason Roberts wants bigger fines etc. I just don't see how that solves the issue? Fining the club won't stop that bloke walking about holding those views. He must have them ingrained from childhood or from previous experiences. Shouldn't the whole point be about education rather than fining?
I'd rather people were educated and changed their views, rather than keep their views but suppressing them underground.
The whole point about it is the club doing more themselves. We support Charlton and we know the reputation block 28 has so why are Millwall doing nothing about the numptys that seem to populate it?
They have & are. Sales are now restricted only to ST holders, no general sale. Been that way for a few weeks I think.
And that is the problem. They have reacted very slowly despite the many reports of abuse (racial and non-racial) from that area this season alone.
Bigger fines WOULD help as there is a bigger incentive to do something and not, as Millwall have done this season, tried to deny there is much of a problem. They seem more worried about upsetting the sort of people who post on the message boards above and losing income than taking swift action.
The threat of a £10k or £20k fine (not suspended as it usually is) would make the MFC board sit up and be pro-active by putting their own spotters in there and training their own cameras on the area rather than waiting until Sky force them to take action.
What many reports are these from that area? I thought Sordell was the first accusation. The block has been shut to non STH's not long after that.
Do you not think that the accusations & programmes like last night do much more damage than a £20k fan? The club in the past thave admitted they find it harder to attract sponsors, neutral fans etc because of our reputation. Do you think our American chairman just sits there thinking we'll deny all this cos I'd rather keep the small % of racist fans than help to attract the majority that are not? They must be one of the first to have a dedicated grassline, plenty of people have been banned through it and through complaints made to stewards.
& you still don't answer the question. Why do you want to stifle racists rather than actually trying to educate them? Why shouldn't that bloke be sent on a course to discuss his views & perhaps talk to other races who can challenge & help change his views? All everyone seems to want to do is to bury their heads & make sure people don't say things out loud, but are happy for people to think in a racist way, as long as they don't say it.
I have personal experience at how the media invent things to suit a storyline, myself and Terry Naylor were offered cash in Munich in 2001 at the England 5-1 game to stage or start a fight by a journo.
How much? Should've taken the cash and then had a pretend fight with each other.
About £100 if I remember, not in a million years would I have done it.
Agreed they could of found as much evidence at certain other clubs if they tried hard enough, not a great excuse for Millwall though is it.
They could've gone into a lot more detail. The whole black managers thing for instance, that needs to go right back to how many do their badges, if the numbers are low, why? Who remembers Keith Curles comments a little while back on this subject? About as racially stereotypical as you can get but nobody said a thing.
The claim that stewards, officials, senior pros etc hush it up, but not a single piece of evidence, you've got Clarke Carlisle head of the PFA who wasn't even spoken to. What about talking to current managers for their views, or perhaps talk to prominent captains who are black, like Danny Shittu, and ask him whether racism is hushed up in the changing rooms at Millwall.
How about explaining that the footage shown of Diouf pointing towards block 28 was actually him having a go at the lino after an incident in the game, which was commented on by the commentators live on sky during the game!!!
The people who spoke were Ehiogu and Canonville, both retired and talking about games long ago.
It was so poorly put together and I think treated a serious issue very crassly. But hey, they got some shocking footage of some nutter at one game over 3 months, that'll make a few waves, lets air it.
I think a few Millwall fans will have to open their eyes a little & realise that it does go on more than they wish to think. Most parts of the ground it doesn't, but there are certain parts, and Block 28 is a part of the ground that attracts the loons & wannabes, where abuse like that may be heard more often.
It's very hard to expect people to start self policing it, the bloke looks off his nut and is shouting racial & intimidating language. Not many will have the balls to say something, especially knowing it may well end up in a fight.
As for future punishments, Jason Roberts wants bigger fines etc. I just don't see how that solves the issue? Fining the club won't stop that bloke walking about holding those views. He must have them ingrained from childhood or from previous experiences. Shouldn't the whole point be about education rather than fining?
I'd rather people were educated and changed their views, rather than keep their views but suppressing them underground.
The whole point about it is the club doing more themselves. We support Charlton and we know the reputation block 28 has so why are Millwall doing nothing about the numptys that seem to populate it?
They have & are. Sales are now restricted only to ST holders, no general sale. Been that way for a few weeks I think.
And that is the problem. They have reacted very slowly despite the many reports of abuse (racial and non-racial) from that area this season alone.
Bigger fines WOULD help as there is a bigger incentive to do something and not, as Millwall have done this season, tried to deny there is much of a problem. They seem more worried about upsetting the sort of people who post on the message boards above and losing income than taking swift action.
The threat of a £10k or £20k fine (not suspended as it usually is) would make the MFC board sit up and be pro-active by putting their own spotters in there and training their own cameras on the area rather than waiting until Sky force them to take action.
What many reports are these from that area? I thought Sordell was the first accusation. The block has been shut to non STH's not long after that.
Do you not think that the accusations & programmes like last night do much more damage than a £20k fan? The club in the past thave admitted they find it harder to attract sponsors, neutral fans etc because of our reputation. Do you think our American chairman just sits there thinking we'll deny all this cos I'd rather keep the small % of racist fans than help to attract the majority that are not? They must be one of the first to have a dedicated grassline, plenty of people have been banned through it and through complaints made to stewards.
& you still don't answer the question. Why do you want to stifle racists rather than actually trying to educate them? Why shouldn't that bloke be sent on a course to discuss his views & perhaps talk to other races who can challenge & help change his views? All everyone seems to want to do is to bury their heads & make sure people don't say things out loud, but are happy for people to think in a racist way, as long as they don't say it.
The other reports of abuse (racist and non-racist) by Sordell, by Diouf, by Frimpong and Haynes. And that is just this season. I don't keep records but how many could I find if I went looking?
I'm sure that such reports do damage Millwall in the long term but to many of the apologists for this behaviour that is an abstract. The attitude would be "how can you know we lost a sponsor for that reason and if they don't like what we are F*** 'em. No one likes us and we don't want to be post 96/sky fans anyway"
Different debate but it's not a "grassline" Grassing is what criminals do. Law abiding people report crimes.
Glad that some fans are reporting it and action is being taken. Well done them and the Club but it does rather prove that it is more than just these five guys in block 28.
I would much rather educate and change the views of those five blokes but from experience, short of wrapping a baseball bat round their heads, it is nearly impossible. That is because they are the extreme end of racism. What can be done is to influence the vast majority who aren't either out and out racist haters or "PC brigade"(sic).
What can be done by shutting up/banning /etc the extreme racists is set an example to others that this is not normal, it's not acceptable and it's not "banter" that is somehow OK at Millwall or Charlton or anywhere else. That saying "Oh, cut out the racist bollocks" doesn't make you less of a Millwall fan. But you know the response will often be "f*** off to Charlton then".
It's belt and braces. Educate, communicate, but when you need to punish both individuals and clubs.
In the infamous footage of Luton v Millwall there are a number of black Millwall fans getting involved.
Millwall have always had a few black faces over there, anyone who knows anything about football culture knows that fact! It seems that because its Millwall, it clouds peoples judgement!
Comments
Bigger fines WOULD help as there is a bigger incentive to do something and not, as Millwall have done this season, tried to deny there is much of a problem. They seem more worried about upsetting the sort of people who post on the message boards above and losing income than taking swift action.
The threat of a £10k or £20k fine (not suspended as it usually is) would make the MFC board sit up and be pro-active by putting their own spotters in there and training their own cameras on the area rather than waiting until Sky force them to take action.
Off-topic slightly I know, but there are morons at our club as well unfortunately!
I'd like to see the mouthy chav scum go to NY and carry on like that, they'd get torn limb from limb in about 30 seconds.
Many years back now, along with CARE, Greenwich Council, we undertook a survey of attitudes to understand why our fans were under represented by the ethnic minorities. We found that 10% that had been to a professional football match had experienced or observes racism whilst at that match. The Voice reported it as 90% had experienced racism!
A TV documentary presented by Darcus Howe was given free reign to interview fans in the bar after a Nottingham Forest match. They set the camera up just to show the first 2 letters of a Forest St Georges flag. This was deliberate to suggest that an NF flag was being freely shown in the ground.
Some journos are simply scum too.
Just to be clear I am not defending Millwall, the club or their fans and agree that they should be sorted out.
Didn't take long.
"Stinks of a set up or have any of tbe alledged racists been identified by anyone on here as Millwall fans"
I also was the 'gent' who along with NLA challenged the Lisbie song at Orient.What reassured me was the reaction of NLA and his mates shouting support from the next section and also the attitude of the police.After the game they took me to one side and told me that the club was aware of the problem and that an undercover operation was under way and that arrests had already been made following the Walsall away game and that this was still on going.The following Saturday we played at Fulham and we all know what happened after this.
I somehow can't see Millwall approaching the issue in the same way.A 13 year old boy was hung out to dry for the Marvin Sordell incident and the club do not seem to pursue perpetrators in the same way that we have.
in this instance i do not doubt they are mill small i do however have serious concerns on the programme and the fact they did not do enough to show the other clubs that have issues just as big as them, but they wouldnt dare do that to the sky golden ticket would they
this is not an anti millwall programme as such as i do believe there is an element of it, it is a show that was to highlight the issues are non premier league and they went to the game/club where they would not be let down
http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/sport/10222318.Just_how_much_more_can_Millwall_do_as_a_club_to_deal_with_this_problem_/
A shame that the more he wrote the more the mask slipped.
Comparing Chelsea in the 70's & 80's to now, you wouldnt have dreamed of seeing a black face on the terraces back then.
How much? Should've taken the cash and then had a pretend fight with each other.
Do you not think that the accusations & programmes like last night do much more damage than a £20k fan? The club in the past thave admitted they find it harder to attract sponsors, neutral fans etc because of our reputation. Do you think our American chairman just sits there thinking we'll deny all this cos I'd rather keep the small % of racist fans than help to attract the majority that are not? They must be one of the first to have a dedicated grassline, plenty of people have been banned through it and through complaints made to stewards.
& you still don't answer the question. Why do you want to stifle racists rather than actually trying to educate them? Why shouldn't that bloke be sent on a course to discuss his views & perhaps talk to other races who can challenge & help change his views? All everyone seems to want to do is to bury their heads & make sure people don't say things out loud, but are happy for people to think in a racist way, as long as they don't say it.
The claim that stewards, officials, senior pros etc hush it up, but not a single piece of evidence, you've got Clarke Carlisle head of the PFA who wasn't even spoken to. What about talking to current managers for their views, or perhaps talk to prominent captains who are black, like Danny Shittu, and ask him whether racism is hushed up in the changing rooms at Millwall.
How about explaining that the footage shown of Diouf pointing towards block 28 was actually him having a go at the lino after an incident in the game, which was commented on by the commentators live on sky during the game!!!
The people who spoke were Ehiogu and Canonville, both retired and talking about games long ago.
It was so poorly put together and I think treated a serious issue very crassly. But hey, they got some shocking footage of some nutter at one game over 3 months, that'll make a few waves, lets air it.
The other reports of abuse (racist and non-racist) by Sordell, by Diouf, by Frimpong and Haynes. And that is just this season. I don't keep records but how many could I find if I went looking?
I'm sure that such reports do damage Millwall in the long term but to many of the apologists for this behaviour that is an abstract. The attitude would be "how can you know we lost a sponsor for that reason and if they don't like what we are F*** 'em. No one likes us and we don't want to be post 96/sky fans anyway"
Different debate but it's not a "grassline" Grassing is what criminals do. Law abiding people report crimes.
Glad that some fans are reporting it and action is being taken. Well done them and the Club but it does rather prove that it is more than just these five guys in block 28.
I would much rather educate and change the views of those five blokes but from experience, short of wrapping a baseball bat round their heads, it is nearly impossible. That is because they are the extreme end of racism. What can be done is to influence the vast majority who aren't either out and out racist haters or "PC brigade"(sic).
What can be done by shutting up/banning /etc the extreme racists is set an example to others that this is not normal, it's not acceptable and it's not "banter" that is somehow OK at Millwall or Charlton or anywhere else. That saying "Oh, cut out the racist bollocks" doesn't make you less of a Millwall fan. But you know the response will often be "f*** off to Charlton then".
It's belt and braces. Educate, communicate, but when you need to punish both individuals and clubs.
Feels very close to that old excuse of, im not a racist as i have a black friend. ;-)