said why idid it and havnt flagged anyone in months and months go ask admin
Flagged me in October even though I still can't figure out why.
My thoughts to those who've lost their lives yesterday and today. I don't have any answers to the issue but I agree with those who say you can't counter hate with more hate. That has never got the world anywhere previously and it never will.
I'd like to see ISIS comprehensively defeated, even if that means Assad's horrible regime survives. Its success is encouraging radicalisation.
I don't have the IT chops to know if its possible but some kind of block on terrorism training websites/chatrooms etc woudl help a lot. Don't under estimate the role of the internet in allowing these guys to communicate/plan etc.
understand you dont like my thoughts on the matter(any matter come to that) but i dont see ANY ideas etc being put forward.
if the answer was easy to get to, it would already be fixed.
The solution isn't a quick fix lets restrict religion, it's a much more long term solution - look at the IRA situation, it took a very long time for any kind of peaceful solution.
We can start off by not actually invading countries, holding the state of israel accountable for crimes against the palestinian people rather than shrugging our shoulders and throwing them more money. Essentially remove any reason for a young british muslim to take up arms against their own country. This war against terrorism is the result of decades of shoddy foreign policy towards the middle east. And we're now paying the price.
and should we put a stop to satire and freedom of speech? The reason the journalists were shot was nothing to do with Israel or foreign policy.
We can start off by not actually invading countries, holding the state of israel accountable for crimes against the palestinian people rather than shrugging our shoulders and throwing them more money. Essentially remove any reason for a young british muslim to take up arms against their own country. This war against terrorism is the result of decades of shoddy foreign policy towards the middle east. And we're now paying the price.
You really don't get the mindset do you. None of these things would make any difference. These guys want you to be a Muslim (and not just any old Muslim, their specific brand of Sunni Muslim) or they want you dead.
Just remember, for every 12 French journalists and cops killed by radical Islamists, there are thousands of (anti-Israel, non-invading) shias & insufficiently Sunni Kurds being killed by radical Islamists - including British ones.
understand you dont like my thoughts on the matter(any matter come to that) but i dont see ANY ideas etc being put forward.
if the answer was easy to get to, it would already be fixed.
The solution isn't a quick fix lets restrict religion, it's a much more long term solution - look at the IRA situation, it took a very long time for any kind of peaceful solution.
We can start off by not actually invading countries, holding the state of israel accountable for crimes against the palestinian people rather than shrugging our shoulders and throwing them more money. Essentially remove any reason for a young british muslim to take up arms against their own country. This war against terrorism is the result of decades of shoddy foreign policy towards the middle east. And we're now paying the price.
and should we put a stop to satire and freedom of speech? The reason the journalists were shot was nothing to do with Israel or foreign policy.
it does have something to do with israel and foreign policy. Why else do these young people justify using the extremes of their religion? Even the sickest of psycho's have a justifiable, in their minds, reason to commit the acts they did. Saying it's just a problem with islam is reactionary simplistic rubbish.
We can start off by not actually invading countries, holding the state of israel accountable for crimes against the palestinian people rather than shrugging our shoulders and throwing them more money. Essentially remove any reason for a young british muslim to take up arms against their own country. This war against terrorism is the result of decades of shoddy foreign policy towards the middle east. And we're now paying the price.
You really don't get the mindset do you. None of these things would make any difference. These guys want you to be a Muslim (and not just any old Muslim, their specific brand of Sunni Muslim) or they want you dead.
Just remember, for every 12 French journalists and cops killed by radical Islamists, there are thousands of (anti-Israel, non-invading) shias & insufficiently Sunni Kurds being killed by radical Islamists - including British ones.
I don't think you can dismiss his point offhand. You have to question why it is usually terror attacks against the Western world. It isn't just because we are predominantly non-Muslim. You also have to question why it is on the whole young men doing this. It of course isn't the only reason for what is going on but we (the Western world) are very quick to deny any blame in this but our leaders and multinationals certainly should have a lot more to answer for.
To what extent will their be a debate about their religion if it turns out that the gunmen shooting the police this morning were unrelated to those attacking Charlie Hebdo yesterday?
Will there be close attention paid to the religion of the cowards bombing a kebab shop close to a mosque this morning?
If they claim they committed the attacks in the name of their religion or were heard chanting religious slogans whilst committing those attacks then I would expect there to be a debate about their religion.
The point I'm trying to make is this: Surely the cowardly, nihilistic, abhorrent acts of murder are far more important than whether the perpetrators were of religion "a" or "b".
The reaction to one - or several - cold-blooded murders should always be horror, revulsion and condemnation, rather than "well, what religion were they? "
I'd like to see ISIS comprehensively defeated, even if that means Assad's horrible regime survives. Its success is encouraging radicalisation.
I don't have the IT chops to know if its possible but some kind of block on terrorism training websites/chatrooms etc woudl help a lot. Don't under estimate the role of the internet in allowing these guys to communicate/plan etc.
You don't need to block them, just monitor them and track the "keenest" users technology is available or being developed to follow an awful lot of people - look up "big data" it's not just numbers, dates and text - it has a geospatial element combined with audio and video.
The Web is where this century will be defined in terms of politics, economics and philosophy. And security.
I heard yesterday that the planet is moving beyond 2 billion smart phones! Everyone leaves a footprint. And those who try tobdisguise or hide warrant further investigation.
Every person on that Facebook thread that enjoys or is supporting the shootings should be rounded up put on a tiny island and then have that island napalmd until it's clear of the vermin on it
Let me get this right...
You're using freedom of expression to condemn people for using freedom of expression to support people who murdered people for using freedom of expression to make political points. Is that right?
Isn't that a bit of a mixed position to hold, regarding freedom of expression?
understand you dont like my thoughts on the matter(any matter come to that) but i dont see ANY ideas etc being put forward.
if the answer was easy to get to, it would already be fixed.
The solution isn't a quick fix lets restrict religion, it's a much more long term solution - look at the IRA situation, it took a very long time for any kind of peaceful solution.
We can start off by not actually invading countries, holding the state of israel accountable for crimes against the palestinian people rather than shrugging our shoulders and throwing them more money. Essentially remove any reason for a young british muslim to take up arms against their own country. This war against terrorism is the result of decades of shoddy foreign policy towards the middle east. And we're now paying the price.
and should we put a stop to satire and freedom of speech? The reason the journalists were shot was nothing to do with Israel or foreign policy.
it does have something to do with israel and foreign policy. Why else do these young people justify using the extremes of their religion? Even the sickest of psycho's have a justifiable, in their minds, reason to commit the acts they did. Saying it's just a problem with islam is reactionary simplistic rubbish.
We can start off by not actually invading countries, holding the state of israel accountable for crimes against the palestinian people rather than shrugging our shoulders and throwing them more money. Essentially remove any reason for a young british muslim to take up arms against their own country. This war against terrorism is the result of decades of shoddy foreign policy towards the middle east. And we're now paying the price.
You really don't get the mindset do you. None of these things would make any difference. These guys want you to be a Muslim (and not just any old Muslim, their specific brand of Sunni Muslim) or they want you dead.
Just remember, for every 12 French journalists and cops killed by radical Islamists, there are thousands of (anti-Israel, non-invading) shias & insufficiently Sunni Kurds being killed by radical Islamists - including British ones.
I don't think you can dismiss his point offhand. You have to question why it is usually terror attacks against the Western world. It isn't just because we are predominantly non-Muslim. .
They are not. The vast majority (i'd guess 99%+) of terror attacks by Islamists are in non-western countries. We had Paris yesterday. But there are dozens of attacks every week in Pakistan, Kenya, Nigeria, the Sudan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Indonesia, India, China etc.
Only the most shocking (like the Pakistan school massacre) hit the headlines
As you know, historically we are nervy about carrying such sensitive debates on here as they generally do little for on-going forum harmony.
There has been some really interesting posts, reactions, knowledge and considerations over the last 12 pages, but if it descends down to who flagged who, point-scoring or trying to be clever, the same people repeating the same points, or just simply unnecessarily extreme or divisive, we're going to have to pull it.
Have your say, try and be balanced, and please don't get embroiled in tit-for-tat.
seems a dark day today---probably just the rain and a grey London day.
how do you stop radicalizasion(sic) ? one party threw money at it (£40million)and the other has no idea---both clearly cant/dont work
if only 1 % of muslims in the UK are radicals thats between 20-30,000. Thats a huge amount.
If we agree that one of the basic elements of being "British" is TOLERANCE the thats fine. Where it becomes PANDERING to radical twats because they make a big noise it isnt.
Prayers rooms/moques everywhere as is Halal meat.
No more mosques to be built ---they aint needed as prayers can be done anywhere. No more prayer rooms--- see above No more halal counters in the major stores---go buy it at a halal butchers No more faith schools No segregation of females /males in classes
Donkeys years we have been told that INCLUSION in UK life etc is the way forward (its the British way).Yet the very same people who have banged on about INCLUSION are the very same people who has let the segregation of the muslim society from the rest of UK society.
Freedom to follow your religion is fine but tolernace should have a limit.
Baby and bath water.
If people want to build mosques or churches or chapels then let them within normal planning rules. If there no demand then they won't get built
Prayers rooms can be used by anyone religious. I don't use them but don't see the problem. It's an empty room.
Halal counters in major stores. They will only sell it as there is a market. It's called free enterprise. What has Halal meat got to do with terrorism anyway? Same as Kosher food or veggie food or gluten free.
All this smacks of attacking Muslims as a whole rather than attacking RADICAL islam. It would actually have the opposite effect as non-radical muslims would feel that they were being attacked and punished for the actions of others.
On the schools and segregation I agree completely but I can see a lot of objections on that coming from Northern Ireland as well as Christians all over the UK
We can start off by not actually invading countries, holding the state of israel accountable for crimes against the palestinian people rather than shrugging our shoulders and throwing them more money. Essentially remove any reason for a young british muslim to take up arms against their own country. This war against terrorism is the result of decades of shoddy foreign policy towards the middle east. And we're now paying the price.
You really don't get the mindset do you. None of these things would make any difference. These guys want you to be a Muslim (and not just any old Muslim, their specific brand of Sunni Muslim) or they want you dead.
Just remember, for every 12 French journalists and cops killed by radical Islamists, there are thousands of (anti-Israel, non-invading) shias & insufficiently Sunni Kurds being killed by radical Islamists - including British ones.
I don't think you can dismiss his point offhand. You have to question why it is usually terror attacks against the Western world. It isn't just because we are predominantly non-Muslim. .
They are not. The vast majority (i'd guess 99%+) of terror attacks by Islamists are in non-western countries. We had Paris yesterday. But there are dozens of attacks every week in Pakistan, Kenya, Nigeria, the Sudan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Indonesia, India, China etc.
Only the most shocking (like the Pakistan school massacre) hit the headlines
Nope fair point and I realise, my point was more looking at the attacks on the West. I admit I didn't phrase my comment correctly.
There is a lot of anti-West feeling among a lot of young Muslims. Now the vast majority will never go to the lengths of the horrible scenes of yesterday but it is definitely there and it is encouraging these attacks to take place. Even in places like Pakistan and Iraq a lot of the attacks that take place are because of the "friendship" between their own country and the US, take the school shooting for example. That was specifically targetted because of the children having parents in the military. Of course it is a very complex situation and it isn't the only reason these attacks are happening but we need to take a bit of responsibility for what is happening.
When i was in my early twenties (a while ago) i worked with a Hindu guy who Thought the Britsh goverment was crazy for allowing so many muslims into the country when their views were the polar opposite of the indigenous population. He painted a picture similar to the IRA threat of the 70's. i thought he was just bias against Muslims, but the horror stories have unfolded before our eyes here and in Europe. That why the 99% of decent Muslims must keep condemning the Few, Or else the silence will be deafening. Being told about the Enemy within has always resonated with me ever since.
A Hindu not liking a Muslim shocker. Next you'll be telling me Jewish people aren't fond of them either.
If it wasn't for AFK asking that this very interesting and informative thread doesn't descend in to a flagging war, I'd have flagged you for that comment.
Imagine if someone had posted "A Muslim not liking a westerner shocker". I'm sure it would have been flagged more than once, and rightly so.
There's been some truly inspiring debate on this thread. The above is just another generalisation, much like the ones people try and stop being hurled towards the Islamic community.
But I think we disagree fundamentally. If your view is that support/neutrality re Israel is wrong and that we shoudln't invade places, I entirely respect that and partly agree with you.
If you view is that our foreign policy should be shaped around our fear of terrorist attacks then in my view that is just appeasement pure and simple. Muslims have a vote in this country just like anyone else. They can vote for the party with the foreign policy they like most. They can write letters to their MPs, they can protest. But they don't have the right of a veto over anything they don't like and we should never act as if they do.
firstly the whole thing is a terrible tragedy and flies in the face of the freedoms the western world take for granted my heart sincerely goes out to those affected and forgive me if i waffle
Id describe The Uk as a secular Christian country and id like it to stay that way ,I think most of us would,we hold dear the values our forefathers fought and died for in political struggles for equality and wars to protect our freedoms .You could argue that the dogmas espoused by fundamental Islam and practised by its followers are just as atrocious as the Nazis who wanted to destroy those freedoms .
The West (Thankyou Mr Blair and Mr Bush) havent helped the situation one iota but anyone of a different faith from another country/culture should accept the values that western Europe holds dear,if they choose to live there , which includes freedom of speech and acceptance of humour (in this case) ..this magazine didnt just lampoon Islam, other religions accepted its right to free speech .Accordingly i would respect the way of life of other cultures if i lived for instance in Jeddah or Riyad,Beijing or Botswana
i keep thinking of Winston Churchills quotes about appeasement and crocodiles and i really think the time has come for Europe/Uk (not EC for Gods sake)to act firmly .I am British first ( i uphold tolerance and freedom) and my religious beliefs are secondary.I think a higher proportion of Muslims (i could be wrong) see it the other way round
British/European values should be taught in schools as should European traditions ,we should always celebrate our cultural differences,but not allow our own culture to erode .i would abolish faith schools. Maybe its time to have a written constitution ? ,maybe its time to ensure that everyone sign an allegiance to their country/Europe and its values when they get the right to vote ?(The Charter of Tolerance and Freedom) if they dont they can choose to live in a country that suits their beliefs.
Just in case i appear anti Islam i dont want to be ...i want to be pro freedom and tolerance ,call it old fashioned british "fair play"
As you know, historically we are nervy about carrying such sensitive debates on here as they generally do little for on-going forum harmony.
There has been some really interesting posts, reactions, knowledge and considerations over the last 12 pages, but if it descends down to who flagged who, point-scoring or trying to be clever, the same people repeating the same points, or just simply unnecessarily extreme or divisive, we're going to have to pull it.
Have your say, try and be balanced, and please don't get embroiled in tit-for-tat.
thanks
lol'd that AFKA... my initial thought was "good luck with that mate!"
Tragic event and RIP to those who lost their lives yesterday.
To pull a glimmer of light from a situation like this is hard, but the unity amongst a vast majority manages to do it. This attack by gutless and mislead men was an attempt to scare and put fear into anyone who would dare do these drawings again. Has it worked? The multiple drawings since, and the fact the previous work has been highlighted says to me it hasn't.
To me, this is the way you fight them, not by cowering away, not by judging a majority on behalf of a few, not by trying to change how people live their daily lives, but to stand up and keep doing what makes are countries and way of life so good. The pictures of the silence in France with people holding pens and pencils up is a great respect and a deafening silence of 'up yours' to the attackers.
We can start off by not actually invading countries, holding the state of israel accountable for crimes against the palestinian people rather than shrugging our shoulders and throwing them more money. Essentially remove any reason for a young british muslim to take up arms against their own country. This war against terrorism is the result of decades of shoddy foreign policy towards the middle east. And we're now paying the price.
You really don't get the mindset do you. None of these things would make any difference. These guys want you to be a Muslim (and not just any old Muslim, their specific brand of Sunni Muslim) or they want you dead.
Just remember, for every 12 French journalists and cops killed by radical Islamists, there are thousands of (anti-Israel, non-invading) shias & insufficiently Sunni Kurds being killed by radical Islamists - including British ones.
You have to question why it is usually terror attacks against the Western world. It isn't just because we are predominantly non-Muslim. You also have to question why it is on the whole young men doing this. It of course isn't the only reason for what is going on but we (the Western world) are very quick to deny any blame in this but our leaders and multinationals certainly should have a lot more to answer for.
Your idea of terror attacks must be completely different from mine then. They occur daily in places like Baghdad and Basra - muslim against muslim.
In the last month, there have been major attacks in Cameroon, Mogadishu in Somalia, Madaen and Al-Ahbar in Iraq, Gombe and Gumsuri in Nigeria, Syria, Yemen and Pakistan.
None of which I'd deem to be in the 'Western World'.
Chizz your in cloud cuckoo I am saying anyone who thinks that these events are OK and justifiable are as bad as the person who done it and to ensure that though don't go on to do the same, get rid of them
We can start off by not actually invading countries, holding the state of israel accountable for crimes against the palestinian people rather than shrugging our shoulders and throwing them more money. Essentially remove any reason for a young british muslim to take up arms against their own country. This war against terrorism is the result of decades of shoddy foreign policy towards the middle east. And we're now paying the price.
You really don't get the mindset do you. None of these things would make any difference. These guys want you to be a Muslim (and not just any old Muslim, their specific brand of Sunni Muslim) or they want you dead.
Just remember, for every 12 French journalists and cops killed by radical Islamists, there are thousands of (anti-Israel, non-invading) shias & insufficiently Sunni Kurds being killed by radical Islamists - including British ones.
I don't think you can dismiss his point offhand. You have to question why it is usually terror attacks against the Western world. It isn't just because we are predominantly non-Muslim. .
They are not. The vast majority (i'd guess 99%+) of terror attacks by Islamists are in non-western countries. We had Paris yesterday. But there are dozens of attacks every week in Pakistan, Kenya, Nigeria, the Sudan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Indonesia, India, China etc.
Only the most shocking (like the Pakistan school massacre) hit the headlines
Nope fair point and I realise, my point was more looking at the attacks on the West. I admit I didn't phrase my comment correctly.
There is a lot of anti-West feeling among a lot of young Muslims. Now the vast majority will never go to the lengths of the horrible scenes of yesterday but it is definitely there and it is encouraging these attacks to take place. Even in places like Pakistan and Iraq a lot of the attacks that take place are because of the "friendship" between their own country and the US, take the school shooting for example. That was specifically targetted because of the children having parents in the military. Of course it is a very complex situation and it isn't the only reason these attacks are happening but we need to take a bit of responsibility for what is happening.
Do you seriously believe that the Pakistani Military carry out anything more than a 'political friendship' with the west to serve their own purposes?
Are you aware how far Bin Laden's 'hideaway' was from 'The Sandhurst of Pakistan'?
We can start off by not actually invading countries, holding the state of israel accountable for crimes against the palestinian people rather than shrugging our shoulders and throwing them more money. Essentially remove any reason for a young british muslim to take up arms against their own country. This war against terrorism is the result of decades of shoddy foreign policy towards the middle east. And we're now paying the price.
You really don't get the mindset do you. None of these things would make any difference. These guys want you to be a Muslim (and not just any old Muslim, their specific brand of Sunni Muslim) or they want you dead.
Just remember, for every 12 French journalists and cops killed by radical Islamists, there are thousands of (anti-Israel, non-invading) shias & insufficiently Sunni Kurds being killed by radical Islamists - including British ones.
You have to question why it is usually terror attacks against the Western world. It isn't just because we are predominantly non-Muslim. You also have to question why it is on the whole young men doing this. It of course isn't the only reason for what is going on but we (the Western world) are very quick to deny any blame in this but our leaders and multinationals certainly should have a lot more to answer for.
Your idea of terror attacks must be completely different from mine then. They occur daily in places like Baghdad and Basra - muslim against muslim.
In the last month, there have been major attacks in Cameroon, Mogadishu in Somalia, Madaen and Al-Ahbar in Iraq, Gombe and Gumsuri in Nigeria, Syria, Yemen and Pakistan.
None of which I'd deem to be in the 'Western World'.
That point has already been picked up on and I've responded to it.
When i was in my early twenties (a while ago) i worked with a Hindu guy who Thought the Britsh goverment was crazy for allowing so many muslims into the country when their views were the polar opposite of the indigenous population. He painted a picture similar to the IRA threat of the 70's. i thought he was just bias against Muslims, but the horror stories have unfolded before our eyes here and in Europe. That why the 99% of decent Muslims must keep condemning the Few, Or else the silence will be deafening. Being told about the Enemy within has always resonated with me ever since.
A Hindu not liking a Muslim shocker. Next you'll be telling me Jewish people aren't fond of them either.
If it wasn't for AFK asking that this very interesting and informative thread doesn't descend in to a flagging war, I'd have flagged you for that comment.
Imagine if someone had posted "A Muslim not liking a westerner shocker". I'm sure it would have been flagged more than once, and rightly so.
There's been some truly inspiring debate on this thread. The above is just another generalisation, much like the ones people try and stop being hurled towards the Islamic community.
Not really sure it is that offensive tbh. It's certainly nowhere in the ballpark of calling all Muslims terrorists. Yes it's a generalisation and no it won't be true of all Hindus, but a vast majority do feel that way. You would only have to look at the tensions between India and Pakistan as evidence of this.
So it turns out the police officer they executed on the floor was himself, a Muslim.
Hopefully this will make people see that these people just don't care about anyone, they will kill anyone without remorse, even followers of their own faith, they don't represent the same Islam that the vast majority of Muslims represent.
Furthermore, this will hopefully lead to more moderate Muslims being more vocal and open to rooting out the enemy within, something which, clearly needs to happen more...
So it turns out the police officer they executed on the floor was himself, a Muslim.
Hopefully this will make people see that these people just don't care about anyone, they will kill anyone without remorse, even followers of their own faith, they don't represent the same Islam that the vast majority of Muslims represent.
Furthermore, this will hopefully lead to more moderate Muslims being more vocal and open to rooting out the enemy within, something which, clearly needs to happen more...
Well it doesn't quite work like that as the muslim guy they shot, in their eyes, does not follow the muslim faith correctly
Without looking like i'm digging round for controversy, i just had a brief look at a random forum for muslims, http://www.ummah.com/forum/ which I came across from a google search.
I find it remarkable that nobody is even discussing the incident in Paris yesterday. it is like it never happened. They do have time to discuss whether they are prepared to sacrifice their own child for the sake of God though
I just read through this whole thread. Apart from a few comments which let it down a little, this is an amazing example of the ability of the collective CL family to debate extremely emotive issues with insight, empathy and restraint. Hats off to all of you who have contributed.
Only a matter of time before it happens here, and it will happen here.
A couple of people have pointed out that it already has. But, just to add, we will never know how many planned terrorist attacks on and within the UK have been prevented by our security forces, The intelligence services and, presumably, Special Branch will have been working very hard on our behalf to identify and nullify threats and I for one am very grateful for the job they do in protecting our rights and freedoms. Same goes for the police in general, who will be in the front line in the event of any attack.
RIP to those that died. Vive la France. Vive la liberté.
Comments
My thoughts to those who've lost their lives yesterday and today. I don't have any answers to the issue but I agree with those who say you can't counter hate with more hate. That has never got the world anywhere previously and it never will.
I don't have the IT chops to know if its possible but some kind of block on terrorism training websites/chatrooms etc woudl help a lot. Don't under estimate the role of the internet in allowing these guys to communicate/plan etc.
The reason the journalists were shot was nothing to do with Israel or foreign policy.
Just remember, for every 12 French journalists and cops killed by radical Islamists, there are thousands of (anti-Israel, non-invading) shias & insufficiently Sunni Kurds being killed by radical Islamists - including British ones.
The reaction to one - or several - cold-blooded murders should always be horror, revulsion and condemnation, rather than "well, what religion were they? "
technology is available or being developed to follow an awful lot of people - look up "big data" it's not just numbers, dates and text - it has a geospatial element combined with audio and video.
The Web is where this century will be defined in terms of politics, economics and philosophy. And security.
I heard yesterday that the planet is moving beyond 2 billion smart phones! Everyone leaves a footprint. And those who try tobdisguise or hide warrant further investigation.
You're using freedom of expression to condemn people for using freedom of expression to support people who murdered people for using freedom of expression to make political points. Is that right?
Isn't that a bit of a mixed position to hold, regarding freedom of expression?
Only the most shocking (like the Pakistan school massacre) hit the headlines
As you know, historically we are nervy about carrying such sensitive debates on here as they generally do little for on-going forum harmony.
There has been some really interesting posts, reactions, knowledge and considerations over the last 12 pages, but if it descends down to who flagged who, point-scoring or trying to be clever, the same people repeating the same points, or just simply unnecessarily extreme or divisive, we're going to have to pull it.
Have your say, try and be balanced, and please don't get embroiled in tit-for-tat.
thanks
There is a lot of anti-West feeling among a lot of young Muslims. Now the vast majority will never go to the lengths of the horrible scenes of yesterday but it is definitely there and it is encouraging these attacks to take place. Even in places like Pakistan and Iraq a lot of the attacks that take place are because of the "friendship" between their own country and the US, take the school shooting for example. That was specifically targetted because of the children having parents in the military. Of course it is a very complex situation and it isn't the only reason these attacks are happening but we need to take a bit of responsibility for what is happening.
Imagine if someone had posted "A Muslim not liking a westerner shocker". I'm sure it would have been flagged more than once, and rightly so.
There's been some truly inspiring debate on this thread. The above is just another generalisation, much like the ones people try and stop being hurled towards the Islamic community.
But I think we disagree fundamentally. If your view is that support/neutrality re Israel is wrong and that we shoudln't invade places, I entirely respect that and partly agree with you.
If you view is that our foreign policy should be shaped around our fear of terrorist attacks then in my view that is just appeasement pure and simple. Muslims have a vote in this country just like anyone else. They can vote for the party with the foreign policy they like most. They can write letters to their MPs, they can protest. But they don't have the right of a veto over anything they don't like and we should never act as if they do.
Id describe The Uk as a secular Christian country and id like it to stay that way ,I think most of us would,we hold dear the values our forefathers fought and died for in political struggles for equality and wars to protect our freedoms .You could argue that the dogmas espoused by fundamental Islam and practised by its followers are just as atrocious as the Nazis who wanted to destroy those freedoms .
The West (Thankyou Mr Blair and Mr Bush) havent helped the situation one iota but anyone of a different faith from another country/culture should accept the values that western Europe holds dear,if they choose to live there , which includes freedom of speech and acceptance of humour (in this case) ..this magazine didnt just lampoon Islam, other religions accepted its right to free speech .Accordingly i would respect the way of life of other cultures if i lived for instance in Jeddah or Riyad,Beijing or Botswana
i keep thinking of Winston Churchills quotes about appeasement and crocodiles and i really think the time has come for Europe/Uk (not EC for Gods sake)to act firmly .I am British first ( i uphold tolerance and freedom) and my religious beliefs are secondary.I think a higher proportion of Muslims (i could be wrong) see it the other way round
British/European values should be taught in schools as should European traditions ,we should always celebrate our cultural differences,but not allow our own culture to erode .i would abolish faith schools. Maybe its time to have a written constitution ? ,maybe its time to ensure that everyone sign an allegiance to their country/Europe and its values when they get the right to vote ?(The Charter of Tolerance and Freedom) if they dont they can choose to live in a country that suits their beliefs.
Just in case i appear anti Islam i dont want to be ...i want to be pro freedom and tolerance ,call it old fashioned british "fair play"
To pull a glimmer of light from a situation like this is hard, but the unity amongst a vast majority manages to do it. This attack by gutless and mislead men was an attempt to scare and put fear into anyone who would dare do these drawings again. Has it worked? The multiple drawings since, and the fact the previous work has been highlighted says to me it hasn't.
To me, this is the way you fight them, not by cowering away, not by judging a majority on behalf of a few, not by trying to change how people live their daily lives, but to stand up and keep doing what makes are countries and way of life so good. The pictures of the silence in France with people holding pens and pencils up is a great respect and a deafening silence of 'up yours' to the attackers.
In the last month, there have been major attacks in Cameroon, Mogadishu in Somalia, Madaen and Al-Ahbar in Iraq, Gombe and Gumsuri in Nigeria, Syria, Yemen and Pakistan.
None of which I'd deem to be in the 'Western World'.
Are you aware how far Bin Laden's 'hideaway' was from 'The Sandhurst of Pakistan'?
Not really sure it is that offensive tbh. It's certainly nowhere in the ballpark of calling all Muslims terrorists. Yes it's a generalisation and no it won't be true of all Hindus, but a vast majority do feel that way. You would only have to look at the tensions between India and Pakistan as evidence of this.
Hopefully this will make people see that these people just don't care about anyone, they will kill anyone without remorse, even followers of their own faith, they don't represent the same Islam that the vast majority of Muslims represent.
Furthermore, this will hopefully lead to more moderate Muslims being more vocal and open to rooting out the enemy within, something which, clearly needs to happen more...
I find it remarkable that nobody is even discussing the incident in Paris yesterday. it is like it never happened. They do have time to discuss whether they are prepared to sacrifice their own child for the sake of God though
I have very little to add, except in relation to: A couple of people have pointed out that it already has. But, just to add, we will never know how many planned terrorist attacks on and within the UK have been prevented by our security forces, The intelligence services and, presumably, Special Branch will have been working very hard on our behalf to identify and nullify threats and I for one am very grateful for the job they do in protecting our rights and freedoms. Same goes for the police in general, who will be in the front line in the event of any attack.
RIP to those that died. Vive la France. Vive la liberté.